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Ah...there we go...it's back on again jlousa!!
I am really excited of this development and I am looking forward to reading more of the updates and plans once they are available. Can't believe that so much had changed during these few decades and I am sure the Vision 2011 will be a success! I, personally, liked the idea of the buildings arranging from tall to low and all the way to sea level...this is a very creative idea and from the renderings...all looks great to me for now :) Keep us posted with more updates! |
Poor GM Place. Shadowed by future hi-rises :haha: Hope the majority of these buildings are for office purpose since BC Place and GM Place will be noissyyyy ! If we build residentials there, NIMBY might convince the city that BC Place and GM Place should be replaced by green parks.
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*l* did you even read any of the documents or just look at the pretty pictures? |
It's alright imo, nothing too spectacular or surprising - basically what we know already. But it does look nice to have the whole area done, and good to know that the City will put in noise policies to future developments around the stadium rather than having the residents steam roll over them by having their way with events there.
However, I'm surprised to see the towers cover up so much of the view of the BC Place spikes from every vantage point and seeing the whole NEFC site east of the furthest east condos as even more parkland. It really does seem to be overkill, with the sports field north of the viaduct and the huge park north and south of Science World. I would much prefer more development there, with some plazas and smaller parks. btw, thanks for posting these jlo! |
:previous: I have to agree with mr.X2 with this one. The park space looks kind of dull and unimaginative. The stadiums and this development in general should use the dead space between the viaducts to build a parkade or two.
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I'm actually surprised about the amount of waterfront green space between Science World and that node of towers adjacent to the Edgewater Casino (the former "green glass house" portion of the BC Pavillion at Expo '86).
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Thanks for posting this :) I agree that it that BC places spikes will be hidden by all the towers. I think they should be visible from a few angles.
If the VAG decides not to move into the proposed site, perhaps Kerfoot would consider building the Whitecaps stadium there. Then we will have all the stadiums next to each other. Also the park space proposed is a bit much. |
I saw this at the library, and left some comments there.
My main concern is that there isn't a well-defined link between robson and the art gallery. Maybe I'm missing it? I think the street pattern is a little too confusing, and doesn't fit as well as it could with either the downtown or chinatown grids. From the pomo arch at the end of robson, you can never see more than 100 m in front of you, and the path doesn't continue in an obvious way. The curvature of the street and lack of visible outlet would ok in a mall or on a busy street. Because it likely won't be very busy and because there's no visible way out, people might think the path around the stadium is a dead end. It might feel too much like private space. Maybe the space around the stadium is an opportunity for mo's covered mall? Or maybe it just needs another way out? |
Thanks for posting all this, jlousa. Lots of info to go through there.
I'm quite happy that the City is pushing for this area to be predominantly commercial and entertainment oriented (though the potential 7,500 residents is a pretty big residential component). I’m glad to see that they intend for new residential in the area to be specifically designed with extra noise in mind and that they want to make sure residents are well aware of the noise levels. While the potential for NIMBYism is always a concern, higher population densities seem like a must for this area and will add some nice pedestrian bustle to surrounding neighbourhoods and to downtown in general. I also found it interesting that they didn't think this area would attract many families. While I like that downtown is generally family-friendly, from an entertainment point of view I kind of like the idea of having this neighbourhood geared towards a different demographic. I'm happy to see there should be a large civic plaza but like others have stated I don't see the need for so much park space. There is already lots around there and to me it looks like all this park space will act as a bit of a psychological barrier cutting downtown off from areas east. Like mr.x2 said, I would prefer more development with some plazas and smaller parks, perhaps something more akin to current SEFC development though perhaps denser and more entertainment/commercial oriented. While the area under the viaducts could potentially be put to more creative uses, I generally like the idea of having recreational areas for such things as basketball, BMX, and roller hockey as it said. It seems this is extending the basic concept of the skatepark that is already in the area. |
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Looks great that they're proposing so much commercial and public space.
I really think this is the last chance for Vancouver to create a fantastic public space downtown. I fear that the plaza will end up lifeless and dreary like most soviet/north american squares. I really hope they aim for Piazza San Marco rather than Nathan Phillips square. It would be great if the surrounding buildings had narrow widths between them at a pedestrian level; that way you would burst out suddenly into a light filled animated square. There shouldn't be any auto traffic cutting the space off from surrounding structures either. To keep the space animated and lively there must be cafes/restaurants spillling out into it - without these railings blocking people off that you see everywhere like Yaletown. Also a few underground (literally) clubs would be appropriate. That would give people somewhere to go once the restaurants are shut down. I imagine all it would take is an extra level of underground parking somewhere - like ones at Montparnasse in Paris. |
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As for the big picture, I'm really excited about an entertainment hub that stretches down to False creek - for a great water city, Vancouver is really lacking that. I think back to how impressed I was by Darling Harbour when I visited Sydney years ago - bars, restaurants etc. right along the water. It was exciting and vibrant and packed with people and I can only hope this comes close (I'll take our streetcar and pass on their monorail though). One question: what's a reasonable timeline for seeing all of this built out? 10 years? 15 years? longer? Thanks for posting jlousa. |
Can't wait to follow this one... and really hope they create that sqft of non-residential as it is so desperately needed downtown.
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Very cool...finally somewhere downtown that will not become a residential Concord Pacific mecca.
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^Would we have enough space to build a monorail, assuming an idea like this is approved?
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The park extension people are complaining about is not flexible and is a requirement from the Concord developments. There is also an area under the viaducts that will be reserved for a maintaince facilty for the streetcars.
I agree that it would be nice to see Robson St become more of a gateway into the area, and there will be some improved pedestrian links although limited due to the new development sites. Georgia St will see huge improvements in connectivity to the area, the new pedestrian link isn't visible in the renderings. Smithe St will also see new improved connectivity as it will continue through. We should see movement on the streetcar line as well which will further improve connectivity I think we can all agree that this will be a major improvement over the current situation. How successful it becomes will certainly depend more on what retail/commercial moves into the space then on the increase of residents. Timeframe is obvious market dependent and up to each developer but it would be a resonable assumption to say build out would be within a 10yr period. There will not be a mono-rail. |
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Streetcars look great, function great and are cost effective. Monorails are none of the above. |
Funny thing is, there was a monorail already in this area. I rode it many times during the summer of '86. (I can still hear "Something's happening here..")
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it looks nice. I am surprised with the number of residents. i was expecting more office space.
which reminds me, this study of 1.6mil sqft of office space... i wonder how Colliers came up with that number and how valid it is? as well, what is up with City Gate? that area has serious potential but is just a yellow blob |
Here are a couple of e-mails sent around by the organizers of the Rio Tinto Alcan Dragon Boat Festival. With encroachment onto the existing DragonZone practice facility site (south of Science World) by SEFC construction and redevelopment, we need accommodation in NEFC for a permenant boat house for both the year-round practice facility and the dragon boat festivals held in False Creek.
During peak times, up to 10 boats of 20 paddlers (plus steersperson and caller) practice during each of 3 timeslots each weeknight and weekend morning. That's a lot of participants, and the planned paddling facilities at the SEFC community centre are not large enough to accommodate dragon boating. The Rio Tinto Alcan Dragon Boat Festival has over 150 teams of 25 paddlers at its annual festival (as well as smaller races at other times). Even though the redevelopment of the Creekside Park expansion will be the last area to be completed, there must be accommodation in the plans for a permenant dragon boat boathouse practice facility for year round parctices as well as festival activities. Quote:
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The VAG hasn't accepted the proposed location for the new art gallery, and I think the area between the Cambie street bridge and BC place would be a far better location for a whole host of reasons. I'll ignore the fact that Concord owns the land for the time being. From the plans, the site seems to be relatively the same size.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3093/...a43c176f_o.jpg This site works better because: 1. Access from Robson street. It is far easier to walk down Robson and through the plaza near the Terry Fox memorial and around the walkway to this site. It's not only closer, but more visible. 2. Visibility. On the waterfront, the Art Gallery would be visible to those on the seawall, those living in SEFC and briefly on the Skytrain. Next to the Cambie street bridge, it would be visible to everyone who enters Vancouver from that bridge. Not only that, but a lower building height would expose the spires on BC Place and provide views to those on Fairview slopes. 3. Access to public transit. While the current waterfront site is close to the Stadium Skytrain station, next to BC place would only be a slightly further walk. On the other hand, this site is MUCH closer to the Yaletown Canada Line station. A trade off I think is very worthwhile. 4. Access to vehicle traffic. Elevating the plaza/Art Gallery up to the level of the walkway around BC place and at or close to the sidewalk from the Cambie street bridge would possibly allow for a parkade underneath. Left in/left out entrances/exits off of Expo blvd. and Pacific blvd where the current alignment of Terry Fox way is would work very well. I don't see the loss of Terry Fox way itself to be a big deal. Traffic would continue along Expo blvd, turning left onto Nelson, then left again onto Pacific. From the Cambie street bridge, traffic could follow a similar route, left onto Expo blvd, then around Nelson and Pacific and into the parkade (and/or a drop-off area). 5. More viable public space. While being on the water would be sweet, being surrounded by residential towers on 3 sides, and BC place on the other would put this closer to more people. While not providing the views of the waterfront, the public space would focus attention on the building itself, being an Art Gallery, I hope this would be a good thing. http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3415/...2e529b0d_o.jpg The property value of the land directly on the waterfront would hopefully accommodate some sort of land swap with Concord, and I'm sorry to some that half of "Colours" would be lost. I would hope the building that would go in it's place would be much more spectacular as an entrance into downtown. I realize this would hamper the size of office space or "jobs" area, but hopefully that could be solved by allowing Aquilini to go higher with his tower, going higher with the tower next to BC Place on the SE side, or transfering the density somewhere else in the city (Canada Post site and/or the site kitty corner to it?). With regards to the extension to creekside park, I think that location so close to both the viaducts and skytrain line would create a lot of noise that any residents would complain about. I think it's good leaving it open like that. |
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Prob. one of my favourite episodes. |
I think that the plan with the waterfront site for the VAG is to extend Georgia Street with a podium roof plaza at the height of the viaduct, and steps that come down to Pacific Boulevard and a civic plaza.
Of course, the problem is that there's little incentive for a tourist to start that walk down Georgia St. because it's a ceremonial street, not a walking street. Even with redevelopment of the institutional uses along the street, i.e. Post Office and QE Theatre forecourt, it won't be a strolling shopping street - i.e. look at Georgia Street west of Burrard - do hoards of people walk down Georgia to get to Stanley Park? I'll bet the distance is about the same. Access to the alternate site from Robson Street would probably be friendlier to tourists. Note that Terry Fox Way is to be replaced with a newly extended Smithe Street - but there's no reason that an Art Gallery can't straddle the new street with bridges, or even just butt up against the stadium to the east of Smithe street (although I like the idea of a prow on the building by acquiring the Concord "Colours II" parcel. It never made sense to me to place an art gallery on a bright southern exposure when art galleries need soft indirect light and tend to be internalized spaces. |
At first I was against the relocation of the VAG to that location and would've prefered to see it go to the bus depot site, but after seeing some sketches I'm now convinced it will work there. I just hope something equally great goes into the bus depot site.
The location you guys are talking about will house a vastly improved Casino, wonder if they'll need to remain it, Edgewater wouldn't work as well there. |
Looks good to me, finally the city will be proactive in regards to new residential units and existing entertainment/noise problems. The city has to make sure that future residents know about potential noise in the area and that the developers protect them the best they can otherwise there will be too many problems like with the float planes, bars/pubs/clubs/etc. on Robson and Granville and on other main streets, stadiums so and and so on.
The most important part of this development for me though is the area under the viaducts, the city has to really make sure that the space is used well, for it to be safe and to conect the area north and south of them. I think the big advantage of the area is that it is mostly covered from the elements which creates a great opportunity for basketball courts, skate parks, tennis courts, etc. and these would all be usable in the rainy winter months. There is enough space there to really create something special interms of a sports facility. I would also think that some type of community center, or maybe daycare could also be incorporated under the viaducts to bring in even more people(eyes and ears). Aslo if this will be the use then some type of roof should be constructed to cover the area between the viaducts to keep the entire space dry, maybe a glass curved shaped roof would be a way to go such as the one in Metrotown mall as a example. I also think another option that could be looked at is incorporating developments in to the are between the viaducts, buildings such as the Qube in Coal harbour would fit though parking would be a issue(could maybe lease space for a parkade under the city streets?). Personally I prefer the use for sports. Anyways looking good. |
Is it just me or does the area in the middle of falsecreek just scream for a huge landmark fountain?
And I know this probably isnt realistic but one can dream right, but would it ever be possible to drain and excavate that area of false creek and build a extension to Science world, then rebury it and flood it above. It would allow the spacecenter to be relocated, etc, and as far as environmental impacts are concerned it would actually end up cleaning up that part of false creek which im sure has alot of crap from the past 150 years of industrial uses around there. Anyways just a dream of mine, though it was a affordable way to expand museum space downtown without using any extra land and especially using any land with value. Just have to drain, dig, clean, build a cube shaped building with no worries about outside looks or functionality, just has to be water tight, conect to science world and build emergcey exits to other points, bury, flood and restore underwater habitat to its natural state. |
One thing I would like to see but it's not in the scope of this review is a passerelle connecting sefc and nefc. I would love to see a ship placed lengthwise taking up most of the space with movable ramps (to account for the tides)connecting to the shores on each side, you'd be able to walk or cycle straight across. or hang out there and explore on the deck or watch the dragon boat races. You can pick up an old single hull ship for scrap metal so it'd be pretty cheap.
You'd still have space for small boats, the dragon boats and the aquabus to pass thru. and if needed a tug boat could move it out of the way in a matter of hours. http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...passerelle.jpg |
^interesting idea, a level crossing would do wonders to the area and there really is no need for marinas or regular boat traffic past there except kayaks, aqua buses and small little boats.
This is the type of creativity the city needs, unfortunately everyone always wants to play it safe...and probably for good reasons.:( |
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The existing wide east sidewalk of the bridge and the staircase and ramps to/from the seawall are well used. I don't think that a passarelle is needed. The boat cruises also enter the east basin (a number are currently docked at the Plaza of Nations and the Coal Harbour based ones also cruise through). I could also see access for fireboats being useful on the waterfront too.
As for a fountain? Not until the combined sewer overflows are removed from False Creek. The last thing we need is a 100 foot tall spray of fecal matter over the creek and seawall! We saw condoms floating around the dock at Alder Bay (Granville Island) last weekend as a reuslt of the overflows.... nice. |
^ errrr, why were there condoms in the creek?
As for the massive park, if it's required well then someone definitely screwed up the Concord masterplan up....I would rather have park space spread out across the NEFC site rather than having one massive field there - unless someone is planning to have Woodstock there every year. :p |
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The City of Vancouver and New Westminster both still have turn of the century "combined sewer overflows/outfalls". Both cities have a combined sewer system for sanitary (toilet, etc.) sewage and storm drain runoff through the same pipes. When there is heavy rainfall (or snow melt) the pipes get filled to capacity due to the combined volume of sanitary sewage and large amounts of rainwater from storm drains - and to prevent back-ups into people's homes, etc. there are the overflows/outfalls that are essentially pressure relief valves that allow the pipes to empty into various water bodies around Vancouver (North Arm Fraser, Burrard Inlet ... and False Creek -i.e. raw untreated sewage and stormwater enters the creek after heavy rainfalls.
The combined sewer system is being replaced (with separate sanitary and storm sewer systems) - but over a period of 50 years to keep tax increases down. In order to do so, every sewer pipe in the city is being twinned. |
^Yeah I kind of understood that but how often do they overflow. I was under the impression that it was not very common.
Any idea how often it does overflow? |
Personally, I love the huge park space. Yes, we have many smaller parks, but larger ones such as this have their place as well.
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^^^ I do agree with you that lagre park space should be reserved and
they shouldn't put to much towers around BC Place or else it's going to block everything and we would only be able to see the Stadium from some angles. |
While I am normlly gainst viewcones and sightlines, I'd suggest shorter towers around BC Place, with on or two much larger signature towers... Aswell as a sightline from Science World and Millenium water (if the later is possible). The sightlines to BC place could contain some of the parkspace from concord if a land-swap deal is possible, which in turn wouldn't cut science world off from downtown so much.
Is it possible in any way for concord to try and get out of it's park space commitment, possibly in exchange for office developent or other ammenities? And hwo about tying in an under-water development in False Creek? Would be a unique attraction to Vancouver. |
The job space figure includes institutional uses, so the actual office space is going to be much less than the 1.8 msf stated. I think it's deceptive, but it is clear what is meant if you read the panels.
Another issue is that art galleries usually prefer artificial or diffuse light, and it would be silly for any building on this site not to take advantage of its views. I think it needs to be taken into consideration when designing the building. For example, it could have an interior area with traditional display space and an exterior area, especially on the south side, with event space and large lobby. On the Leidseplein example, traffic may technically be allowed there (I don't remember cars there) but mostly it's streetcars, bikes, and pedestrians. It's a beautiful square, a very good model for Robson square, being bisected by a narrow streetcar/pedestrian street. http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&q=L...04828&t=k&z=18 Yeah, I think they are focusing too much on pedestrian connections to Georgia and Smithe. They could make excellent connections to both streets, but then they'd be left with the far more difficult problem of getting people to like walking beside expressways (or redesigning those streets). Those connections won't solve the problem of connecting this area to the existing area of busy pedestrian activity. There needs to be a good connection to Robson. |
Although the gallery itself would be a black box inside, there's no reason why the outside has to be.
There's still an opportunity to have the gallery cafeterias, for example, with the view. Also, a public plaza on the outside. The building's water face doesn't necessarily have to be a blank wall. It could be a grand glass entrance. A roof-top terrace would work well as well. I'm not saying it's a good location for it.. but it's better than another condo. At least it's a public building. |
Thank goodness the art gallery can't be another glass tower; I think that alone will make it interesting and stick out from the surrounding forrest of towers.
So maybe in keeping with the west coast theme, the art gallery could be designed as a giant rock covered in moss. I'm thinking toned down Gehry style with added vegetation. Or if it were a large glowing pink blob, that might brighten up all those dark drizzly days and provide a beacon hope. |
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I also agree that vibrant connections to busy pedestrian corridors (such as Robson) are important. Anyways, here are a couple pictures of the AGO (my pics). Thoughts? http://lh4.ggpht.com/_9FW9P3-u1EI/SY...0/IMG_8402.JPG http://lh3.ggpht.com/_9FW9P3-u1EI/SY...2/IMG_8430.JPG http://lh5.ggpht.com/_9FW9P3-u1EI/SY...2/IMG_8413.JPG |
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WRT the AGO, the atrium on the north side looks great (though it does overpower the streetscape), but the new galleries in the tower are practically a windowless box (south and west sides): Pic posted by BobBob on UrbanTO Forum: http://www.lagged.net/things/ago.jpg Extensive use of louvres (posted by Interchange42 at UrbanTO Forum): http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3045/...f4b4e8b8_b.jpg |
Think they are going more for a Tate Modern concept, both in look and feel.
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really tate modern? wouldn't a art deco massive brick factory just look a tad out of place on the waterfront? maybe in yaletown....
i'm betting gordo will insist plenty of BC wood to be used, highlighted and show pieced to the world. |
^^underwater development sounds great! Better than putting a ferris wheel.
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Source: http://via-venture.over-blog.com/ |
Jlousa it sounds like your trying to say the old expo glass building(Edewater Casino) will stay and house the art gallery. I suppose its a alright plan though im not sure if the building has enough space. Maybe a addition to the north. In any case it leaves tons of space between the glass wall and the building inside which would definitely allow for a nice public space that takes full advantage of the southern exposure. Plus I suppose there is some history in that building already.
Personally I hope they would take on more of a aboriginal art theme to the work in side and and the design outside. Its something thats local and would help the art gallery stand out be unique and attract tourists. Something like 25%aboriginal art mostly from BC and some from Canada 25%local art 50%open to any art. The gallery can than try and market its self as maybe the largest collection of aboriginal art from the PNW, or something like that. What ever is being used to house it could use design and outside art inspired from a type of fusion of aboriginal art and the regular every art gallery in the world art. |
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