Agreed. I'm interested to see where they place the three towers mentioned, and the amount of 'affordable' housing proposed as part of this. Regardless, it's good to see this area see some reinvestment to align with all of the new development taking place in the area.

$50M is definitely a lot of money, but 3 years ago, reno of the lower bowl alone was estimated at $68M, that didn't include much in terms of exterior renos.

I think the roof may need significant repairs as well. Very curious to see how this plays out.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamil...250m-1.4046406

https://pub-hamilton.escribemeetings...umentId=124941

The devil will be in the details!

Also anything a government or government agency will do, will cost 2 or 3 times more than if the private sector does it.

Doesn't seem like enough. Presumably 'new exterior' includes the roof? I've also heard the loading dock is too small for some of the larger trucks that touring acts use. Hopefully they do enough to attract more shows, that's the only way they can hope to make a profit.

I can't decide if I like the renders or not.
Based on what I'm seeing, I think there's a real chance that they'll go cheap on the exterior and it won't look all that appealing.

The exterior is already cheap looking - it won't be that hard to improve on it tbh..

Pretty light on details , looking forward to seeing the plan outlining 400-500MM in investment .... Or is that Hamilton City Centre proposal.

Right, but we can use the excuse now that the reason it looks dated and cheap is that it's 34 years old. But to renovate it now and it still looks cheap and somewhat dated - would feel like a waste of time. Sure, I think it'll be an improvement - but I fear it won't be as big an improvement as it needs.

I really liked the render of the proposal a couple years ago... with straight lines... that looked modern.

I was really hoping on neat lines and angles with less curves and waves which (imo) will look dated in 15 years. Referring to the most recent image that has been released.
Really had my hopes up for the original image posted in the CBC a couple of months back. Just seemed it would age better, and easy to update. Most of all, the white siding was removed.
Certainly hoping and remaining positive that they will do the city proud in the end, as this will be an incredible amount of development.

https://i.ibb.co/KxrfbvT/first-ontar...t-art-2017.png

This is great news. I too am curious to see how this all fits into the footprints of the various sites, and what the towers may look like.

Not sure what to think yet about the arena... need to see more renders. Perhaps the interior changes won't be so drastic (it's pretty bare bones right now so dressing it up may not be a huge expense; largest costs may be expanding the concourse?)

While it was proposed to be a much more expensive reno, Balsillie's concept was great:

https://images.thestar.com/HT_3fJAdq..._forcopps.jpeg
Source

That one above that woreg75 posted is very "mallish" to me.

https://shawglobalnews.files.wordpre...arking-lot.png
Source

http://devcoadvisory.com/wp-content/...ES_2014_10.jpg
Source

I'm surprised the Vrancor group didn't win. They have more money and more experience building things. This proposal relies on a lot of funding from governments that are already out of pocket from the pandemic, not to mention the lack of certainty around concerts right now. I guess the details were kept secret and councillors know a lot of things we don't. I just hope they kept their heads on their shoulders.

Balsillie's idea was a great concept. I completely forgot about that proposal. That would have been a grand venue.

I don't get this - this is legoland building at its best - square and rectangular angles is just as dated worthy as anything else. Honestly when did we get so architecturally lazy. There is nothing wrong with a curved design - and it's this lack of innovation that has given us over 90% bland boring architecture in this city. I also agree the above design looks like a mall. You did say imo however, and this is mine ;)

I honestly have nothing against the proposed design. It gives me something to look at that isn't the god awful boring angles rimmed by white rectangular strip designs like the above with slat lights, or the boring all curtain wall designs.. It's the stadium - it should BE flashy. Admittedly they're still using the slat lighting below but it looks better with the overall design. I actually really like the wavey strip and the giant screen and the ribbed almost glass looking design on top and the all glass look below. Although renderings do have a tendency to make things look flashier than they are irl. I still like it more than the "mall" design.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EdIoNUzWsAELj5o?format=jpg

Let's be blunt - every design in the city will get redesigned every few decades as it will eventually become dated looking.

What I'm not sold on with the new rendering is what's above the black wave, or lack thereof. At least with the other designs they added some height to the facade, or just stacked offices on top :P

I 100% agree!

The Black strip and under looks great! It's just the wavy part above that I'm not digging..

The unfinished upper curvy white section is what turned me off the latest design. Too much of a reminder of what is currently there.
Maybe they will add lighting to it, or a projection mapping light show..

https://i.ibb.co/r2vbJX1/outdoor-bui...tmas-decor.jpg
image uploader

https://i.ibb.co/Dkgwv4L/Guggenheim-...ductions-2.gif

maybe? lol

And that $68m half-arena renovation, laid out in the June-August 2016 report commissioned by four of the 'Precinct Group' partners and prepared by Brisbin Brook Beynon Architects, would potentially have cost upwards of $100M (before inflation) if executed to an elevated standard. The report's project budget was redacted as commercially confidential, but it would be known to those who commissioned the study. From the scope of work that emerged at council in April 2017, we can surmise that the $68M partial upgrade doesn't include all the bells and whistles.

Roof Repair: $2.5M
Elevator & Escalator Repair: $4.3M
Facade: $????

My guess is that the public-facing production value will be allocated to concessions and corporate boxes, where the partners will actively recoup their investments. A lot of the necessary technical upgrades to the facility will never be visible to the public… you could pile $25M into the facility that would be invisible to event-goers. The reality is that this arena will be dark two thirds of the year and their principal tenant can fill 25% of the seats. They'll err on the side of caution given how much money they have earmarked for other developments.

That's exactly the problem I have with this design. The top part looks like it'll just be a re-cladding of what we currently have - which makes me think it'll still look like cheap siding.
Maybe the render isn't detailed enough to show that it'll be a much bigger improvement than I think - but I don't think it's likely.

Considering the budget, it probably is what's currently there.

With the rendering conspicuously labeled COLISEUM, my hunch is that it's also supposed to be blank so that it will draw attention to the naming sponsor's logo. I imagine that the part of thinking on the black band below, identified in the BBB report as an insulated metal panel system, is that it will allow the corporate logo (and the LED strips) to pop more. And maybe wishfully imagining that it won’t show dirt as quickly as white cladding, though anyone who has ever seen a black car will know how much water that theory holds).

I'd be interested to see a daytime rendering, when the lighting conditions will moot the screen and strip lights. It strikes me as a design that will be visually oppressive during daylight hours… an entire city block that has had a black bar imposed across its eyes.

It's definitely hard to tell what they will use for the top part above the wave. Best case, it'll be a corrugated frosted glass that works with the light nicely. Worst case, it'll be white corrugated aluminum panels that create a polebarn aesthetic. I'm really hoping that it ends up being glass, or it might just end up looking like Edmonton's Stanley A Milner Library.

I do like the black wave and the glass facade along the bottom, though. The black wave will probably be clad with matte black aluminum panels, similarly to Scotiabank Arena.

Summed it up perfectly thistleclub..
Suppose all we have left is willing positive vibes towards the project.

Two solutions were identified in 2016's FirstOntario Centre - Arena Renovation Study:

Option 1: replace existing cladding on York Blvd. and Bay Street sides only with new insulated metal panel system. Allow for custom colours as selected by Architect.

Option 2: replace existing cladding for entire façade with new metal panel system and Lucabond fascias as per exterior rendering and drawings. Allow for custom colours as selected by Architect.

In either case, it doesn't appear to have been included in the partial renovation.

Just realized what this was reminiscent of: Brisbin Brook Beynon Architects' 2012 design for Markham's GTA Centre.

https://cdn.skyrisecities.com/sites/...7281-21542.jpg

weren't we suppose to get a finalized masterplan on this project by the end of this year?

Deal for downtown Hamilton entertainment precinct said to be close

Scott Radley
https://www.thespec.com/news/council...-be-close.html

A deal between the city and the consortium planning to renovate and maintain FirstOntario Centre, the FirstOntario Concert Hall and the Hamilton Convention Centre is now close, both sides say.

Barring any unforeseen glitches, things should wrap up within the next couple months allowing for work to begin, according to Coun. Jason Farr, who represents Ward 2.

“My sense is we’ve dotted a lot of i’s and crossed a lot of t’s,” he says.

“We’re hopeful (and) optimistic that we will cross the finish line very soon,” PJ Mercanti, president of the Urban Precinct Entertainment Group (UPEG), said earlier this month, a position he echoed this week.

It has taken longer than expected to get here.

Back in the summer, UPEG was chosen by the city to be the group to handle the project but it was all riding on the completion of a master agreement between the sides. At that time, the city’s press release said that a deal would’ve already been reached by now and renovations would begin in the fall.

Alas, COVID got in the way.

“Life got kind of crazy so it just kind of delayed things,” Mercanti said a few weeks ago.

Why should this matter to you and why should you be hoping the two sides wrap things up with no catches or hang-ups? For reasons beyond simply wanting a shiny new — or renewed, at least — arena, concert hall and convention centre and some other development for the city core, that is?

Because, even though the work would be done with private money, the outcome will affect your taxes.

A year ago, the city’s capital budget included a long-range look at what we were going to have to spend to maintain and upgrade the three entertainment venues. It wasn’t pretty.

This year we were going to be on the hook for $11 million and change. Most of it for the arena, but $2.4 million for repaving of the square between the concert hall and the art gallery, and another $400,000 for replacing wood railings in that area. Plus another $168,000 to fix up the arena courtyard.

However, anticipating the completion of a deal that would take the responsibility for the buildings off the city’s hands, the entire thing was whittled down during budget discussions the other day to just $800,000 for typical “life-cycle renewals.”

If that original $11 million sounds like a lot, we’re barely getting started.

In 2022 we were going to be on the hook for $7.8 million. Jump to 2023 and it was $8.8 million. And then from 2024 to 2029 the budget called for $7.8 million, $5.8 million, $9.3 million, $9.2 million, $9.2 million and $9.2 million.

In case your calculator is broken, that’s a grand total of $78.1 million in less than a decade. Which could turn out to be more if unexpected issues arose.

“It’s an increasingly heavy burden on the taxpayers,” Farr says.

All of that is now off the books, assuming the deal happens. Which is why taxpayers should be rooting for smooth sailing.

If the deal were to fall apart now, the city would have to put those millions back in the budget, which you would cover through your property taxes. Failing that, the buildings might have to be shut down, Farr says.

“Or go back out to the market (to) other consortia who may be still interested,” he explains.

Yes, that is the third option. Don’t forget, the Vrancor Group had also come forward last summer to make a pitch for the project. But that would mean starting the process over. Which would take time, assuming it got done. In the meantime, the city could be spending more to maintain buildings it was actively trying to unload.

“If anything goes wrong with the mechanical systems or anything like that, the city is still on the hook,” says Rome D’Angelo, the city’s director of energy, fleet and facilities management.

At a time we’re scrambling for cash — and really, when are we not? — and planning to divest ourselves of this cash sponge anyway, far better to do so as quickly as possible. Before we have to spend a single dime more than is absolutely necessary.

https://images.thestar.com/_RAO8y-nK...architects.jpg

I hope a lot more info is forthcoming as to how the risk reward on this project works for us the taxpayers. Yes there are upkeeps that UPEG will assume but what does the city get.

UPEG seems more like a concept group vs a doer group.

Money has never been cheaper. Lets get a move on.

Maybe we can finally get an NHL team with these fixes? Not likely but it's fun to dream!

Remember when Balsillie tried to buy three NHL teams (including an eventual multiple Stanley Cup winner-Pittsburgh) and move them to Hamilton? If that jackass didn't get aggressive taking deposits before the sale of the Coyotes was approved, we would have had a team. Plus he'd have a lot more money left in the bank after RIM stock subsequently fell off the face of the earth (regardless of the recent WSB run).

For fun, here's a great quote from the LRT mayor himself:

In Hamilton, a disappointed Mayor Fred Eisenberger looked on the bright side, noting that even the league's experts said in court a team in Hamilton would quickly be a money-maker. "The good news in it for Hamilton is that all have agreed that hockey in southern Ontario is viable and that it would be a successful market for them to start working with," Eisenberger said

I bet Quebec City'll get a team before we do, their new area looks a beaut. They used to have a team, all that. But unless Victoria or Saskatoon get serious, I think we're next in line... whenever that is

NHL? I think there's a better chance Harry Stinson completes his next major project in the city.

Nice to see progress though. And Andlauer is getting impatient, though a redeveloped FOC is probably his best bet at new home in the region. But this isn't about him, and the value of that arena goes far beyond a hockey tenant. While it would be a shame to lose the Bulldogs if this project festers, I think a replacement team would be found fairly easily.

I'm wondering what Covid has done to the budget for Copps and Hamilton Place. With no events is that better for the city? A lot worse?

It won't happen until Quebec and Houston are both taken care of, be it through expansion or relocation. I doubt NHL 34 will happen for a long time. The NHL will eventually need new locations for relocation threats once those two places get teams, and it's not outrageous to suggest that Hamilton could be on that list, considering the numerous times it's been in the running for a potential expansion or relocation.

Hamilton is the next biggest CMA in Canada after Quebec, beating out KW by about 200,000 people, so it's realistically the only remaining place in Canada that could hypothetically take on a team, barring a second Toronto team.

There are too many "large enough" US metros that would be in line before a Canadian one ever gets a sniff at a potential NHL team, most much bigger than Hamilton (or Quebec City for that matter). They suit Bettman's dream of league success... a dream where franchise profitability doesn't seem to matter.

IMO the next (and likely last) new Canadian team will be close to the Toronto border. Appease MLSE with some guarantees of constant flow of tribute moneys, and that's that.

But Hamilton needs a facility that is right-sized for a variety of uses. Smaller and intimate enough for OHL or AHL crowds and more modest concerts. Big enough for the large events a CMA this size commands. If this group can pull that off, while taking burden off the tax base, then this will have all been very worthwhile.

Hamilton doesn’t need a 20,000 seat arena, agreed. A 10-15k facility is more useful and “right sized”, and there isn’t anything wrong with that. We sit right in the middle of two NHL markets. A certain chunk of sports entertainment is always going to get drawn to those cities instead. GO is busy right to Aldershot after a Jays game for a reason.

As a new Hamiltonian I fully expect to take advantage of being close to Buffalo and it’s NHL and NFL team once covid is over. NHL games I can actually afford and NFL, something not available in Toronto.

I meant "right-sized" in terms of regular use of a sectioned-off lower bowl for most minor/junior league sporting events that don't need the full capacity, with the option of opening the upper level for bigger ones like concerts or tournament finals.

If this group can renovate the arena with a workable design that provides the intimacy craved for the first use but allows for the second, then they'll have done well. Seating capacity of both levels will probably end up being lower anyway, if they plan to add more boxes and put larger seats in the stands (I haven't been to the arena in a while, but I recall feeling cramped; whereas at THF the seats are more generous)

More amenities are needed too, but they don't need to be gold-plated.

Do we know when this may start? I know the facility is being used as a vaccination site, but during the pandemic would be the best time to start on this as it will likely take years of closure to renovate the arena.

They are still in the process of closing on the agreement with the developer - then a while of design and technical approvals, lining up financing, etc.

My guess is 2023 at the earliest.

How long do we think First Ontario Centre will be closed for?

Me thinks that this group is either cash poor or more likely looking for everyone else's money to make this happen.

Just a note on CMA. The CMA stuff is just more governmental bureaucratic BS chicanery.

Compare Hamiltons CMA area to that of Winnipeg, Ottawa and QC. Each of those count numbers in areas at minimum 2.5 times the size of Hamiltons up to over 4 times the size in Winnipeg and Ottawa.

Not an apples to apples comparison at all.

It can rightly be argued that Hamilton is the 5th or 6th largest city in the country and should get the funding based on that. Those other CMAs extend up to 40k from the downtown, whereas Hamilton only extends 20k.

Fyi Caledonia and Brantford not considered in Hamiltons CMA.???

I've been saying this since I moved here. There seems to be a coordinated effort to put Hamilton down. It's councillors don't want to be seen as a real city, the province ignores us like we're Grimsby or something, the federal government barely knows we're here. The city of Hamilton is a 600,000 person city with a real CMA of over 1.5 million people.

Hamilton’s problem is that it’s so close to the Toronto CMA that the commuter sheds blend together a lot.

People living in western Burlington are very much tied to Hamilton but people in eastern Burlington are arguably more tied to the GTA, for example.

Caledonia would be in the CMA if it was an independent municipality. Because Haldimand county is a single tier municipality, it technically doesn’t qualify under the CMA calculation methods. To be in a certain CMA, you need to meet a minimum % of people commuting to a central municipality (Hamilton). Caledonia meets this, but because Haldimand County includes areas like Dunnville, etc, which are much further away, the county as a whole does not.

Brantford I don’t believe meets the commuter shed requirements, even if it wasn’t its own independent CMA. And honestly i think it’s independent enough to qualify as it’s own city. It’s close that people go between the two frequently, but they effectively still act as independent cities.

Honestly I think Hamilton’s CMA number is pretty accurate, maybe short a bit because of Caledonia and/or Beamsville not being in it, but also inflated a bit as it includes western Burlington which is really more tied to Toronto.

If anything Hamilton should just be a part of the GTA metro area though. It’s ultimately still very closely tied to the GTA, much more so than areas like Kitchener / Guelph or Peterborough. It’s not as extreme as Oshawa is which is solidly just a Toronto suburb at this point despite having its own CMA, but it’s close.

In the 2016 census, approximately 4000 people commuted from Brantford to Hamilton, while only just over 8000 did from Burlington to Hamilton. What about Brantford makes it is own city, more so that. Burlington or Grimsby?

the difference is that 25,000 people who live in Hamilton work in Burlington, compared to just 2,500 who work in Brantford.

So the total commuting mix between Hamilton and Burlington was about 33,000, while it was 6,200 for Brantford. Huge difference.

More people who live in Hamilton work in Toronto than that even - 8,000 people a day get on the GO train or fight their way down the QEW to Toronto. About another 8,000 work in each Mississauga and Oakville.

In fact, almost 14% of commuters who live in Hamilton work in a GTA municipality (A municipality within the Toronto CMA). Thus my point that Hamilton is really quite closely tied to the GTA. It doesn't technically meet the requirements to be in the GTA CMA, but it's still highly integrated.

Brantford stands on its own, the vast majority of people who live there work within Brantford or Brant County.

This was in the news yesterday. Hopefully it doesn't get the rough ride at committee that certain other proposed projects have been getting today. ;)


$400M rebuild of Hamilton’s downtown entertainment facilities now in front of council
https://www.thespec.com/news/council...rtainment.html

By Scott Radley
The Hamilton Spectator
Tue., June 1, 2021

https://images.thestar.com/i2M7ig77V...architects.jpg

A massive redevelopment of Hamilton’s downtown entertainment facilities along with the creation of other properties in the core now appears to be just a council vote away.

“A tentative deal is now in place,” Ward 2 councillor Jason Farr says.

“Things have been progressing very well with the city,” says Urban Precinct Entertainment Group (UPEG) president P.J. Mercanti. “We believe we are in a good place.”

On Wednesday at general issues committee, council will discuss what’s being called the Downtown Entertainment Precinct Master Agreement. Which is an arrangement between the city and the consortium of local businesses that makes up UPEG.

Since the issue will be handled in camera, no details of what’s involved are publicly known. However, what was pitched nearly a year ago by UPEG was a $50-million renovation of FirstOntario Centre, as well as multimillion-dollar upgrades to the FirstOntario Concert hall, Hamilton convention centre and Hamilton art gallery. At the time it was announced, the plan included a new exterior for the arena, an expanded concourse, amenities including a microbrewery, a renovated lower bowl and other improvements. The other facilities would be freshened as well.

Also promised was another $340 million in residential units, affordable housing, offices and retail space that will follow in the future. Bringing the whole thing to a cost of more than $400 million.

The apparent deal to kick this into gear comes roughly a year after UPEG — led by Mercanti who is also CEO of Carmen’s Group — was tapped by council to handle the project and more than six months later than had been expected when the arrangement was first announced. Blame a few complications, including COVID, for that Mercanti has said.

Six weeks ago, he said a deal was close. At that point, Farr agreed and said there were just some I’s to dot and T’s still to cross.

“You can safely report that’s all completed now,” the councillor says.

Assuming council signs off on this, the city would save millions in maintenance and upgrades to the facilities that would otherwise be required. The city has budgeted more than $78 million over the next decade to keep the facilities — mainly the arena — going. However, these costs would come off the books and would cease being the responsibility of taxpayers.

full story here

And council committee gave it their blessing. A unanimous vote... a rare occasion! lol
https://www.thespec.com/news/council...nt-venues.html

Full council vote comes next week but should be a rubber stamp.

For anyone whom, like I, perhaps wondered why a Toronto sports team is relocating its home base to Hamilton.
The main reasons being, operation costs, a different home location that can attract a better / different fan base, as well as being in an area on a Saturday evening which is a prime time game slot, and be able to make a day of it for fans while immersing in Hamilton's ever changing culture before and after the game. ( which of course is more great news for the City, even more reason for an LRT and so on. ) A news article by the NLL :

https://www.nll.com/news/toronto-roc...ntario-centre/

Also, does anyone remember, and surely correct me if I am wrong, when the Carmen's Group took over the staffing, and day to day operations from the three downtown entertainment venues years ago? Was it not promised at their end that they would, as they promised at that time to build a new downtown residential building of some sort, mixed with a partial hotel piece to it, I think the renders then showed it between the CIBC building and the Pigott Building? This was perhaps 5-8 years ago I believe, and nothing came to be at all. Well now it seems to me they are promising the exact same thing of building new residential buildings, including affordable housing and commercial to the tune of $340,000,000.00. Is this just another empty promise comparable to politicians promises before they are elected and once elected, the vast majority never come to fruition or are the last on a list of things to do, making them seem insignificant to the public that bought into them?

At least this time we know where the money is coming from.

From the Spec article:

Do we know exactly what renovations are being done to FOC?

I keep seeing the render shown above, but all that's really showing me is a curtained-off upper level. Are there any other renders out there? I'm assuming/hoping the exterior will get a new look?

Aye! That's a good point.

Hop to page 21 and there is a potential render of the exterior (its curvy).

I think all that is promised is a revamped lower bowl, updated exterior, new scoreboard, expanded concourse and it looks like revamped suites. I don't know how they're gonna get all of that with only $50 million.

What I'm really interested in is what "expanded concourse" means. Based on the interior renderings, it looks like it might be a completely new lower bowl concourse. Unfortunately, I can't see FOC housing two concourses with the current tenants (maybe the Rock will prove me wrong).

Also, does anyone know the potential timeline of renovations? Would it be similar to MSG where they closed the arena for a few summers or would they simply just shut it down for a year?