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I understand there are some key players in this discussion, but at this point location is becoming less relevent to me, as much as I want it downtown. Downsizing is a terrible idea. |
Sports franchises, I'm sure, are proceeding with great caution at the moment. Trends suggest that fans are viewing sport in a different way today than the past - watching on mobile devices; not watching games from start to finish = much less demand for tickets, etc. It's hard to imagine that trend not continuing. Baseball, for example, is strongly considering whittling down its ridiculous 162-game schedule to 154. A small change, it's true, but it's a reflection of their economic situation. And any renovation that is likely to occur at Skydome will assuredly include a significant reduction in seating.
We might also hypothesize that as the demographics of Canada continue to change and as our disposable income continues to shrink, there will be less demand for live sport, particularly hockey (and baseball and NFL/CFL football). In other words, I have no idea what Hamilton is supposed to do. I suppose if there's true demand for a major sports stadium then the market will sort that out. However, if the City has to shell out tens of millions for something we're not even sure we need, well... |
I'm for renovating Copps and keeping 18500 seats. Hamilton needs to act like a grown-up city. The city is growing and Copps keeps Hamilton at least a B Market. Why downsize to a London or KW? Have some courage and keep Copps. It's like destroying your house your bought new 25 years ago because it needs windows and a new furnace. If the maintenance was done all along properly Hamilton wouldn't be in this mess. I like to add that the current arena with it's concourse is perfectly acceptable. Bring back boat shows, car shows and sportsman shows.
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I'm getting tired of many things being repeated constantly in debate to the point where I just think F~CK IT, and get on with it or shut up. I feel the same as realcity, for the exact reason of how Hamilton is growing in so many ways and that we keep things downtown in this bid. So there's my two cents, take it or leave it, I am only just one person. Now let's bloody move on!
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Now, if a private citizen wants to take a run at that 80s revival idea then I say go for it! |
I also don't like being reduced to a 9,000 seat arena, as it limits the usage of the arena.
And maybe we haven't had enough events that utlizes the current size, but I think that's where the concentration should be - trying to get more larger events. Would renovating FOC and fixing it's issues while reducing it to a similar size of Winnipeg's arena (ie. around 15,000 seats ) satisfy both requirements? It would be big enough for major events (15k for hockey makes it around 16k for concerts), and it could possibly give it a more intimate feel for junior hockey and other smaller events. |
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Because that's the rink's full name, it's an arena and trade show centre or whatever. Thay was only the case the convention centre is much too small, which is gonna change when they build a new one.
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Re car shows / boat shows, etc.
Just a final note. Some of you, no offense intended of course, are likely too young to remember when car shows were a serious entertainment event - like, we marked it on our calendar kinda big. We're talking thousands and thousands of people flooding into Copps over the course of a few days to see next year's models, etc. - the concourses were jammed for days. Millennials aren't even bothering to get a driving license... It's not a valid pretense for spending tens of millions of public dollars. |
^ Car shows were great. Have a collectible auction like Barret Jackson would be great for a week at Copps. Give me the job to make those 19 shows ONLY that needed second bowl. I would pack this place. Hamilton and Haldimand are the best places around to get collection and antique cars and car parts. There is an enthuasim locally with collectable cars and bikes. Do a show for that. Would be awesome.
I also watched Bob Izumi fish in a glass tractor trailer truck for bass at Copps. Bought my first and only Mitchell reel that I still use. |
Mitchell Reels
Constant‘s son-in-law, Charles Pons, joined the family business, now called Carpono & Pons, and was the moving spirit in the company. In the 1930’s they worked with two fishing tackle manufacturers to refine their round reel designs. They created the first prototype open-faced spinning reel in the latter part of the 1930s and a patent was granted in 1950 for this new reel design. The true origin of the name Mitchell remains mysterious–Although Carpano & Pons had the intention to name their first reel “Michel”, they discovered this name was already used and patented so they gave the reel an American sounding name that was very in vogue at the time. |
Car and boat shows don't need seating, they need floor space. An arena floor is less than 20,000 sq ft, very small for exhibit space for those type of shows. I would think a suburban multipad arena would be better suited for that. Surely Hamilton has facilities better suited for a boat show than a 17,000 seat arena?
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The movable seating in the lower sections has certainly opened up the floor for larger trade shows and car shows and the like, but a 17.5K arena isn't needed for those. That's a poor reason for keeping FOC as it stands.
That said, if a cheaper reno option is available that holds upper-tier seating in reserve while creating a more intimate 9-10k bowl than the current curtain-contraption-setup can provide, it's worth discussion. |
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Staff report urges city to reject idea of Lime Ridge Mall arena
https://www.thespec.com/news-story/9...ge-mall-arena/ The report from the Economic Development and Planning says that while the mountain area is an appropriate spot for intensification, an arena should not be part of that. A Hamilton staff report that will be presented to councillors next week recommends against considering Bulldog owner Michael Andlauer's proposal for a new arena at Lime Ridge Mall. The report from the Economic Development and Planning says that while the mountain area is an appropriate spot for intensification, an arena should not be part of that. Staff is recommending that no further action be taken with regards to the new arena proposal, the report says. Andlauer had proposed contributing up to $30 million toward construction of a new 6,000-seat arena attrached to the mall. He would then manage is for at least 20 years which would remove that cost and responsibility from the city. Cadillac Fairview would also lease the land on which it would sit to the city for 20 years at $1 a year. The proposal Andlauer made to council in October also included a parking garage and partnership with Metrolinx to connect mountain commuters to GO service. The total cost was estimated at $126 million with the balance being taken on by the city and possibly other levels of government. All of this would allow the aging FirstOntario Centre — which will require millions in maintenance and upgrades over the next few years — to be demolished and the land sold which would generate an infusion of cash for the city and create additional taxes. In rejecting all this, staff cited a belief that there would be no savings from a mountain arena, such a facility wouldn't be much of an economic catalyst, moving an entertainment venue out of the downtown would fly in the face of the city's strategic plan, and building a facility with fewer than 10,0000 seats would hamper the city's attempts to attract major events. |
From Feasibility of Locating a New Arena on the Hamilton Mountain (PED20008):
Net Budgetary Impact After considering the cost of financing this new arena project over a 20-year period, the City’s total cost would be as follows: Total Cost (In $2019): $149,498,696 Net Present Value: $101,608,984 Estimated cost of operating and maintaining the existing FirstOntario Centre over a 20-year period (“Status Quo”): Total Cost (In $2019): $92,081,440 Net Present Value: $63,700,821 New Arena Proposal 6,000 Seat Arena and 1,800 Car Parking Garage Total Cost in $2019 Over 20 Years: $149,498,696 Comprised of: Arena Cost: $72 M Parking Garage Cost: $67.5 M Interest on Debt: $24 M Capital Reserve Arena: $28.8 M Capital Reserve Garage: $27 M Less: M. Andlauer’s Contribution: $30 M FOC Site Sale Proceeds: $39.8 M Net Present Value: $101,608,984 About that parking garage: For the parking garage, staff is of the opinion that the estimated $30 K construction cost per stall is low. Based on industry benchmarks for an above-ground parking garage, a cost of $35 K - $40 K per stall would be a more appropriate range. Since the cost of constructing the proposed parking garage would be borne by the City, staff used a $37.5 K per stall as an estimate for their analysis. This assumption would increase the proposed cost of the parking garage from $54 M to $67.5 M and the total project cost from $126 M to $139.5 M. Staff met with Cadillac Fairview and Michael Andlauer to learn more about the proposed “Park and Ride” program to assess the feasibility of securing funding from the Federal and Provincial governments. During these discussions, staff was made aware of preliminary discussions that Cadillac Fairview and Michael Andlauer have held with the Ministry of Transportation. Although Cadillac Fairview and Michael Andlauer have indicated they had a productive dialogue with the Provincial government on this subject, staff was not provided any evidence that this investment was imminent and was not able to get additional clarity from Metrolinx or the Ministry of Transportation. Staff also noted that the City of Hamilton Council-approved Transportation Master Plan does not identify a “Park and Ride” program connecting the Mountain to the West Harbour GO station as strategic priority. When reviewing Metrolinx’s official Rapid Transit Network plan, there was no mention of this “Park and Ride” program. Given the uncertainty around the availability of this funding and the lack of Council direction to formally request these funds, staff is not able to include these cost offsets into the analysis of the proposal at this time. |
Pearl Jam returns to Hamilton March 24
https://www.thespec.com/whatson-stor...lton-march-24/ Pearl Jam will perform at Hamilton's FirstOntario Centre March 24 as part of the rock band's North American launch tour for its upcoming album "Gigaton." Tickets for the concert go on sale to the public Friday, Jan. 24, at 10 a.m. through Ticketmaster.ca and CoreEntertainment.ca. "Gigaton," which is scheduled for release on March 27, is the multi-platinum-selling Seattle band's first album since the Grammy-winning "Lightning Bolt" in 2013. "Making this record was a long journey," Pearl Jam lead guitarist Mike McCready said in a statement. "It was emotionally dark and confusing at times, but also an exciting and experimental road map to musical redemption. "Collaborating my bandmates on 'Gigaton' ultimately gave me a greater love, awareness and knowledge of the need for human connection in these times." Pearl Jam is no stranger to FirstOntario Centre, last performing their in 2011 and before that in 2005. A 6000 seat arena on the Mountain wouldn't have likely been able to host this. It's too bad First can't pick up more shows like this when the Raptors and Leafs are in full swing. |
I think Hamilton is big enough for both arenas. I like the idea of urbanizing LRM and multi-use. It would be successful and so would FOC with acts like Pearl Jam. Keep them coming.
Mall Road could be home to a few high rise condos. I took the Mohawk bus and was confused by its trip into LRM but then I thought it was a good idea the bus was packed with part-time workers. It takes some time to get to the west mountain bc of the mall stop. Expand that station like the one at Mohawk. And densify Wentworth/Linc/Mohawk. Could be a mini City Centre in Mississauga and Hamilton still could have a healthy downtown. |
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With so many competing priorities such as transit, social housing, water system, roads, aging community centres, the City doesnt have the money to run and upkeep two arenas. FOC is barely profitable with a permanent tenant, no way theres a business case to keep it running off of a couple of concerts a month. I cant see how the path forward is anything but one arena wherever that site may be. |
Random comparative: In October, Chatham's council rescoped an arena build, downgrading a 4,000-seat arena to a 2,200-seat facility once the municipality's CFO determined that the larger venue would come with an $86M price tag.
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I think it's a matter of priorities. Where the money is spent. Copps hasn't had any upgrades since it was built. The City put off repairing and maintaining a Class A arena and now it seems are on the hook for 25 years of not doing anything. I think Hamilton could support a 18k downtown and 6k on the mountain. Do more than getting just one concert a month. I go back to boat shows car shows sportsman shows.
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The City cant afford to pay for capital upkeep of its existing single arena. How would the city be able to “support” a second 6k arena if it cant even maintain its existing? I agree its a matter of priorities. Council wouldnt prioritize running two arenas over transit, social housing, roads, parks, community centres etc. Having said all that Council just voted against a Limeridge mall project. The vote was 11-3. It looks like the play is downtown, hopefully Carmens and some other big players step up to the table. |
I don’t think some of you realize how broke the city is. We can barely maintain Copps and some of you think a second arena is a good idea. We are already taxed to hell with little to show for it, we shouldn’t even entertain the ridiculous idea of a second arena.
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City councillors reject proposal to build an arena at Lime Ridge Mall
Hamilton Bulldogs owner has said he'll look at moving his OHL team https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamil...rena-1.5428441 The proposal for an arena at Lime Ridge Mall is almost dead at Hamilton city hall. City councillors voted 11-3 on Wednesday to walk away from the idea put forward by mall ownwer Cadillac Fairview and Bulldogs hockey team owner Michael Andlauer that would have seen a 6,000-seat arena built at the central Mountain mall. Three Mountain councillors fought for it. But overall, most said the city couldn't afford the project, and it shouldn't make a $126-million investment for a facility on private property. "We're just giving money away to a private investor who's going to benefit," said Brenda Johnson, Ward 11 (Glanbrook) councillor. "This had nothing to do with downtown versus the Mountain." Andlauer and Cadillac Fairview, approached the city last year. The idea, city staff say, was a 6,000-seat arena, which would cost $72 million to build, plus $52 million to build an 1,800-vehicle parking garage. Cadillac Fairview has also talked about building a hotel on the site, and Andlauer pledged $30 million himself. Council voted in October to discuss options with the two. A staff report says those talks show the city should walk away from the project. Andlauer has said he'd consider moving his team if the city didn't downsize FirstOntario Centre, an aging arena where the OHL team is the main tenant. CBC News is pursuing comment from Andlauer. How they voted In favour of walking away from the Lime Ridge arena proposal: Maureen Wilson (Ward 1), Jason Farr (2), Nrinder Nann (3), Chad Collins (5), John-Paul Danko (8), Brad Clark (9), Maria Pearson (10), Brenda Johnson (11), Arlene VanderBeek (13), Judi Partridge (15), Mayor Fred Eisenberger. Opposed: Tom Jackson (6), Esther Pauls (7), Terry Whitehead (14). |
Terry Whitehead and Esther Pauls consistently make bad decisions, it's hilarious they're city councilors.
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I get that playing in a 17,000 seat arena isn't ideal, even with the curtain, but where is he going to go? Brampton?
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Hey! Londoner here with an outside opinion on this - why do you not just rebuild Copps with around 12-15,000 seats? I would think it's a no-brainer to keep it downtown.
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Carmens came out on Stonechurch in the late 80s. They owned the wedding banguete market in the City. Then Michaelangelos opens in the 90s. Same thing happened and they make each other better. |
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Also comparing banquet halls to sports arenas in terms of capital investment, operating costs, and market demand is apples to oranges IMO. Especially when one of the two arenas would lack a dedicated tennant. Banquest halls are rented by the avg joe and there are lots of them. Sports arenas are not rented by the avg joe and the customer base to rent them is much smaller, a problem intensified by lack of primary tenant. |
What’s the chance an OHL team would work here with the arena situation the way it is?
(Hamilton Spectator, Scott Radley, Feb 24 2012) There are more than a few questions left unanswered by the city staff report outlining the proposed move of an Ontario Hockey League franchise to Hamilton. The identity of the mystery buyer is a biggie, of course. Another, however, stands even above that. Can a junior team succeed playing its game either at the undersized Dave Andreychuk Mountain Arena or at the oversized Copps Coliseum? These two arenas, after all, have been cited over the years as at least part of the reason two previous junior teams left, the NHL hasn’t come here and the Bulldogs have struggled to draw fans. Is there a realistic chance this could work? “I believe an OHL team can absolutely be successful in Hamilton,” says Dundas Real McCoys owner and hockey consultant Don Robertson. The city report that will be presented to council Monday says the mystery buyer who would move the OHL team here — three sources have told The Spectator the team is the Erie Otters — would begin playing at Mountain Arena in the fall and remain there for as long as five years. It would be by far the smallest arena in the league with a capacity of just 2,500, and the second-oldest. Pete Richards played there for half of his three-year stint as a goalie with the Hamilton Steelhawks in the mid-’80s while waiting for construction on Copps to be finished. “Every night it was jammed,” he says. “It was an awesome place to play. When you fill that building, it’s no different than playing in front of 20,000 people.” Despite the tremendous atmosphere that would almost certainly exist, he can’t see how Mountain Arena could be a long-term solution for an OHL franchise. It’s too small, too old, too light on amenities and too worn. Which brings us to Copps, which has plenty more seats but has long been criticized for having no atmosphere. The report says, if the Bulldogs leave town during the five-year transitional period, the junior squad would move into the downtown arena. Mario Cupido isn’t sure that situation would be any better. The one-time co-owner of the Hamilton FinCups and the Dukes says the only reason junior hockey didn’t work in the past was building-related. It’s a problem he believes remains. “You can’t play out of Copps Coliseum,” he says. “It’s impossible. You can’t play out of Mountain Arena. It’s impossible. You need a rink of 5,000 to 6,000.” He says he tried to create one. In 1978, he had plans to renovate Mountain Arena and add as many as 4,000 seats. The proposal was taken to council but neighbourhood residents protested and it never went anywhere. He put the FinCups up for sale the next day. In the city report, the prospective owners say they intend to build a new arena if the Bulldogs remain in town and Copps is unavailable to the OHL squad five years from now. No specifics were included. Perhaps the person who’s in the best position to know if this could work is Bill Burke. The owner of the Niagara IceDogs runs his team on a budget he says is near the league average. Most games are sold out at the ancient Jack Gatecliff Arena in St. Catharines. Yet in five years he’s never made money on his investment. The problem is the arena. It’s too small — he says 3,500 paying fans is roughly the break-even point for the OHL — and too old. In short, it’s almost exactly the same as Mountain Arena is now. Not long ago, Burke told city council there if they didn’t build a new facility, he’d have to move. Councillors voted to construct a $45-million, 4,500-seat arena with the amenities a modern team needs to turn even a small profit. It’ll be ready in 2014. Burke promptly signed a 20-year lease. He wouldn’t mind filling some of those seats with fans from Hamilton. While this city likely falls in his protected territory, Burke says he would welcome a new rival anticipating it would pull more Hamiltonians into his building when the new team visited. “I wouldn’t veto it,” he says. His break-even number is part of the reason Robertson thinks Copps could work. Most OHL buildings now are essentially mini NHL arenas. When the upper deck is curtained off, Copps becomes something like that. With 9,500 seats in the lower bowl it would be almost the same size as the John Labbatt Centre in London where the Knights play to full houses. Robertson believes a minimum of 4,000 fans a game in Hamilton would be a reasonable expectation. That’s almost exactly what the Bulldogs are drawing this season. By Burke’s numbers, that would make the franchise profitable and sustainable. Not to mention, using Copps would open the door to hosting the Memorial Cup or World Junior championship, or both. “You could make Copps Coliseum and the lower bowl work,” he says. |
I'm not sure the city should allow an OHL team to dominate the discussion. The city report said First Ontario makes no money on the team but does on the other events.
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Whats the relevance of that 2012 article? Maybe some of the same issues exist 8 years later?
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Another instructive flashback...
HECFI boss says agency’s future needs to be debated (Hamilton Spectator, Andrew Dreschel, Nov 24 2010) Councillor Sam Merulla has found an unlikely ally in his campaign to privatize HECFI. Duncan Gillespie, the entertainment agency’s CEO, says Merulla’s motion is not without merit. “In light of our current financial situation, it’s not unreasonable for that option to be considered,” Gillespie said in an interview yesterday. The difference is that while Merulla wants to immediately dissolve the board of directors and contract operations to a private firm, Gillespie believes the time is ripe for the idea to be thoroughly reviewed and debated. The arm’s-length agency that runs Copps Coliseum, Hamilton Place and the Convention Centre revealed last week that it has a $1.5 million operating deficit, which it attributes to shrinking concerts and conferences stemming from the straggling economy. The shortfall will boost the city’s annual payout of $5.75 million in grants, subsidies and fees to $7.25 million for 2011. That prompted Merulla to resurrect the idea of handing over operations of the money-draining assets to the private sector. After dissolving the board, he wants city manager Chris Murray to assume control until an operating company is found. Merulla intends to advance that as a formal motion shortly after the new council assumes power Dec. 1. “I’m not a proponent of privatization, but there are some businesses we don’t belong in and entertainment is one of then,” said Merulla. Read it in full here. |
In light of a CHCH report that the Bulldogs are looking to partner with Cadillac Fairview for a similar area development beside Burlington Mall, another flashback...
During a Hamilton’s infamous Pan Am Stadium flustercluck, the Ticats were shopping their wares around the region in search of some bargaining leverage. One site that was briefly in play was the Paletta-owned lands south of the 403 between Aldershot GO and King Road. That storyline sputtered out quickly. In Dec 2010, then-Councillor Meed Ward (now mayor) voted against funding an Aldershot stadium for the Ticats, in a situation where Burlington would have had to contribute $30m toward a $130m facility. In January 2011, her colleagues on Burlington’s council came around to her POV and rejected any such proposal unless it could be developed and operated at no cost to Burlington taxpayers. It could not. As such, for the Bulldogs/CF Burlington Mall sequel to have any juice, it would likely have to be fully funded by the private sector (as senior government would require substantial municipal contribution). |
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Could Hamilton Mountain Arena rejection cost city nearly $1 billion?
(Hamilton Spectator, Scott Radley, Jan 21 2019) When city council voted 11-3 last week to kill the idea of any further consideration of a 6,000-seat arena at Lime Ridge Mall, it leaned heavily on a staff report urging such a decision. Not to worry, the report implied. Having a rink downtown is way better. Besides, it won't affect Cadillac Fairview's plans to spend $890 million redeveloping the Mountain property. Might delay it a bit but that's it. So go ahead and vote against it. All is well. Not so fast, the executive vice president of Cadillac Fairview says. "I think the short answer to that is, yes, it is at risk," Wayne Barwise says. Not just short term. Completely. As in, potentially no 1,250-unit residential development, no hotel, no expanded office space, no new jobs. None of it. Because what would lure people there? "People have not traditionally chosen to live at a shopping centre," he says. "We're trying to transform the shopping centre into more than a shopping centre so it's a mixed use community. So you need other things. You need catalysts." This should be concerning to everyone in Hamilton. For the better part of a decade, this town has turned itself into a pretzel over the LRT because of the billion dollars of someone else's money it could bring into the community that would transform part of the city. Supporters — including many at city hall — say it's essential. Politicians and bureaucrats have spent thousands of hours working to make sure that desperately needed cash infusion comes here.Yet when a company says it wants to invest nearly an equal amount elsewhere in the city, there seems to be a whole lot less urgency. This is troubling. Even more so when one of that company's top executives argues the numbers the city is relying on to make its decision are "plain nonsense." He says the real amount the proposal would cost the city wouldn't be well over $100 million but closer to $27 million. Read it in full here. Aside from his self-interested position as a sports writer, Radley is a content provider at a click-hungry daily. He has an interest in stoking controversy — he's also a call-in host, remember — but has covered the Bulldogs file long enough to know some salient details here, among them: • Andlauer has been seeking to build a privately funded arena in-market since 2009; • The Bulldogs came looking for disproportionate City subsidies shortly after arriving here — as an AHL franchise; • The Bulldogs are the current facility's biggest money loser, and as such would potentially require lower rent at a box-fresh facility than in a 35-year-old barn in order to remain financially viable; • Andlauer's commitment is unconvincing, going from 50% of capital costs in 2017 to a cap of $30M paid out over an unspecified term, and with potential back-billing based on suggested sole-sourcing venue management to him for the first 20 years of venue operation (in contravention of City procurement policy); and • Andlauer's contention that "I don't want to dictate where it's going to go" on venue siting (floated in Nov 2017, alongside his matching funds pledge) is equally squishy. Moreover, CF and the Bulldogs seem prepared to go it alone at RioCan-owned Burlington Centre. Burlington's council passed on a $130M Pan Am Stadium over concerns that it would require city taxpayers to shoulder a fraction of that cost. (Then-councillor Meed Ward was among the deal's most vocal critics, and considered any such promises to be baseless: "The Ticats, as far as I know, have no authority to negotiate on behalf of the province or on behalf of Toronto 2015 so saying that there are no capital dollars required is disingenuous. The Ticats do not control the provincial purse strings so there is still a funding shortfall."). CF/Andlauer are evidently trying to shift the thinking of Hamilton's council, but come off as similarly faithless actors. On top of all of the above is the dubious development calculus argument presented here. Glossed over is that the promised "development" being used as a yardstick is the blue-sky, blank slate version of CF’s purported $890M development aspirations for the LRM property. When presented to the City's planning department in May 2018, those uncosted plans included 12 new buildings, nearly 200,000 square feet of new retail and commercial space, and a 494-space parking garage. The Bulldogs didn't enter into the LRM equation until a year and a half later (though admittedly, in 2016/17, Andlauer and CF had been angling to develop a city-funded arena in T.B. McQuesten Park, along with restaurants, residential towers and a Linc-spanning pedestrian bridge to mall parking). In those plans, there was no 6,000-seat arena, and no arena-sized pedestrian piazza (rendered as if it would be the lovechild of Yonge-Dundas Square and Jurassic Park) that would displace parking (losing surface Lots E & H) as well as eliminate private development options in favour of publicly owned facilities, meaning reduced levels of forecast capital investment/tax assessment. All for a facility that, under a best-case scenario, will be dormant for two-thirds of the year. This opportunity cost is never accounted for. Beyond that, the notion that CF is dutifully providing the city with $12M in property taxes annually contains at least a grain of hokum. Two years ago, the Spec noted: Quote:
Radley's clickbaity LRT/LRM investment binary is also askew. Aside from the attendant transportation benefits, the former investment would repair/replace 14 centerline kilometers of road and upgrade sub-grade infrastructure, as well as unlocking development potential across five wards, all ostensibly funded by the province. The myriad benefits are spread across not just the lower city, but also help reduce the crushing infrastructure deficit felt by all local taxpayers. The latter, whose cost would be three-quarters carried by local taxpayers, would principally benefit one private landlord of a site a third of a square kilometer in area, it would prop up what is, according to its VP, a failing commercial property (rather than a site of dynamic urban transformation posting its highest national sales productivity ranking of the last four years even as market peer Mapleview slipped in the same rankings), to the tune of more than $100M. CF can dispute the math, but is fronting zero capital; the past estimates on what it would cost to develop a parking garage — from the City as well as Metrolinx — suggest $40K-$50K/space is not inconceivable, meaning that an 1,800-space parking garage in itself could cost $90M. If CF really wanted to project credibility as a serious development partner, they would offer to entirely fund the parking garage themselves, breaking ground ASAP in order to accelerate these negotiations and inspire council and staff to re-examine the merits and the math of a scale-model arena. |
Great analysis. Radley's articles of late on the arena situation have been pretty annoying.
Given how crazy rents have become in Hamilton of late, building apartments on Limeridge mall parking lots has to make more sense now than it did just a few years ago. This just seems like a scheme to fleece the city into paying for a parking garage for CF. |
Wow Radley wants this arena built at all costs no matter how much the tax payer is getting fleeced. Seems his profession as a sports writer is really skewing his opinion.
Why should a city struggling with tax increases and a growing backlog of deferred capital rehab subsidize the development on private land of a multi billion dollar company. Also, great analysis thistleclub. |
Meanwhile at Mississauga' Square One
https://www.cp24.com/polopoly_fs/1.4..._620/image.jpg Massive 37 tower, 18,000 unit development planned for area around Square One https://www.cp24.com/news/massive-37...-one-1.4777077 https://www.cp24.com/polopoly_fs/1.4..._620/image.jpg Oxford Properties says that the transformation of the area around Square One Shopping Centre is a “multi-phase, multi-decade project” that will eventually transform “swaths of parking lots” into a “vibrant community.” The first phase will begin this summer with the start of construction of two new residential towers at the Southeast corner of Rathburn Road and Confederation Parkway. The 36 and 48-storey towers, which are being built in partnership with the Daniels Corporation, will consist of 402 rental apartments and 575 condominium suites. An additional 5,000 residential units will then be constructed over the next five to seven years. Oxford Properties says that the project will create 6,500 direct jobs over the next five years and 35,000 direct jobs over the life of the project. Mark Cote, who is Oxford Properties head of development for Canada, said in the press release that the hope is to deliver “a walkable, downtown district in Mississauga." |
It's simply not good policy to build an arena or stadium in an area lacking in transit and walkability. Whether they keep FOC or build a new arena downtown, it will be accessible by future all-day GO Transit and whatever form of rapid transit ends up being built downtown, as well as most HSR bus routes. If it was built at Lime Ridge Mall with a new parking garage, few would consider taking transit, especially from out of town. It could not possibly be marketed as a transit-accessible venue.
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I'm not stupid enough to fall for it when people try to hinge big developments on the creation of a large world-class arena that hosts an NHL and/or NBA team, so it's laughable that I'm supposed to believe that $1B of development depends on a 6,000 seat arena that hosts an OHL team.
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