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I love Boston but I find it is not very representative of the Excited States.

Cleveland for the US.

I don't think there is a such a thing as the stereotypical Canadian city as the regions are all quite different. If I had to pick: Edmonton for 'Most Canadian' and Toronto for 'Least Canadian'.

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Originally Posted by zoomer (Post 9010914)

Most: Edmonton, Ottawa and Moncton for most of the reasons others have already listed. I’ve found all three to be friendly, welcoming and proudly Canadian. They represent ‘peace, order and good government’.

Least: Calgary - again for the reasons mentioned by a Calgarian above. Visiting does feel like going into a pocket of something different.. hmm, gotta think about this one a bit more.

Victoria - well, living here colours my perspective, but for so many reasons it feels different, not sure if that makes it less Canadian, who knows, maybe we’re the most Canadian - yah, no. Victorians are proudly Canadian as much as you’ll find anywhere, but Canadian is defined by the ideals that we stand for and less so the way of life, culture, attitudes, etc.

Partly a reality of living on an island, and an island where it’s very time consuming and/or expensive to arrive or leave. It does lead to an island mentality, which at times can be limiting, on the other hand it does result in greater local innovation and creativity. Victoria elects Green Party politicians federally and provincially, in some tidings the leading two candidates are the NDP, then Green, followed by Liberals and finally the Conservatives. So there is that massive overriding left leaning, and environmental perspective, whatever you think of that.

It doesn’t feel or look like the rest of Canada - you can see the geographical difference when you arrive back in Victoria and you can feel it too. While a lot of people enjoy going over to the mainland for the weekend as soon as they drive off the ferry there is a sigh of relief.. things are slower and more grounded.

What makes it feel less Canadian - a disdain of large companies, chain restaurants, anything large scale really. When we have colleagues visit from Edmonton they all want to go to Earl’s, Cactus Club or Milestones without fail. We snobbishly judge them - those places are for tourists who don’t know better. BTW, I swear Edmonton is the most meat and potatoes city ever when it comes to liking basic food. Even finding a restaurant large enough to handle larger work groups (more than 8!) is a near impossibility, usually means going to a pub right after work and having them put a few tables together. Unlike other Canadian cities I’ve been too most of the restaurants here a little holes in the wall, with limited seating. The smaller the better, it’s deemed as more authentic - Victorians don’t like to see anything get too big and successful because then it’s a sign of being a capitalist sellout.

Other things just look different here - billboards are not allowed, the only advertising you’ll see is at bus stops, business signs also face strict size limits, so it leaves a less cluttered look. Also, Victoria has by the far the highest percentage of people who walk or bike to work, bike traffic is everywhere, as are walkers, runners, joggers, water based activities. You really notice that difference compared to other cities.

Watching Canadiana on TV - can’t relate when they speak to the stereotypes - the cold, the wide open prairies, kids playing on frozen ponds and rivers. Tired of seeing that on hockey broadcasts with Ron McLean (maybe the most Canadian person ever - although he’s annoying as heck). We have no frozen rivers or lakes (although some years there is one field in town that gets flooded with enough water and then can freeze allowing kids to skate for a few days). The only outdoor hockey is street hockey or indoors - which probably explains why Victoria has supplied only 19 players ever to the NHL, only four of whom have over 200 career points.

While the origins were British, Victoria looks more to Asia for inspiration even though that population is lower than Vancouver. In many ways Victoria is cautious.. we built one commie block back in the 1970s and it still haunts and influences what happens today. We’re sceptical of any new trend or style, we only know for sure ‘we don’t want to be like Vancouver’. As a result, new development is small scale, and at times feels quite random and quirky. Unlike Vancouver, Victoria did not go in for the all glass condos. I’m sure there’s more, but that’s enough wild generalizations and anecdotal stories for one day, lol.

All good and relevant points when it comes to Victoria.

I find it kind of odd that there is never any mention of the annual influx of Canadians from across the country who are posted to the RCN.
You get young people from NS to BC coming each year to live during some if not a majority of their careers.
There is a story that every time the city council wants to get rid of the militant symbols that mar the beauty of Victoria, the Admiral heads down to city hall to remind the Lisa Helps and Ben Isitt types how much the Navy supports the tax base of the region.
I've lived in the area on 4 separate occasions. I hope to come back for a 5th time to stay, but it looks like I'll need to find a lonely widow behind the Tweed Curtain to afford the place!:D

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Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 9010876)

How very Torontonian of you! :haha:

This Canadianistic stuff is semi-interesting, but we're just too busy doing more important shit with New York and New Delhi. Tah tah, dears. :haha:

(Please don't take offence. Just teasing! :))

:D Toronto is just Cleveland with clean water! :runaway:

Most American big city is Chicago.

The answer to this question depends on how you define "Canadianess" (geographically, climatologically, historically, ethnoculturally etc).

By my own definition, I tend to look at historical and ethnocultural factors and tend therefore to lean towards a Laurentian view of Canada, and as such, the epitome of Canada lies in the Montreal/Ottawa axis. These therefore are two of my cities. For ethnocultural reasons (and for homerism), I will choose Moncton as city #3. :)

As for the three least Canadian cities, I will choose cities that I view as more American in their character, and will choose Niagara Falls and Windsor ON, and Calgary AB. I like these cities (although Clifton Hill is a bit over the top), but all have been contaminated by close contact with the USA, and have been partially inculcated with an quasi American mindset.

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Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 9011232)

I mean, you're talking to someone who doesn't really believe in the notion of Canadian as it pertains to people. We all happen to live in Canada but we're all a mash of whatever our background is. It's a shared-experience with wildly different language, cultural, and social backings. Canadian is a blank slate that can be whatever we want it to be on that day, for better or for worse.

I don't think it's really that vague and complicated as we like to make it out to be. Foreigners don't have much trouble figuring out what's Canadian.

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Originally Posted by samne (Post 9011410)

Most American big city is Chicago.

I would agree. Chicago does a good job of reflecting the culture of the big cosmopolitan American cities, while also being somewhat steeped in midwestern culture which is also a huge part of the US. I suppose the climate is a bit on the cool side considering the large part of the American population that now lives in the southern states.

A place like Kenora, Ontario probably covers all the stereotype bases except for the Francophone angle:

- In a boreal woodland/lake/cottage-y setting with floatplanes and canoes
- In Ontario, but catering to Manitobans (so sort of an east-meets-west connection)
- A railway-age downtown containing a mix of baronial limestone, brick and wooden architecture
- From left to right, this street scene contains a Western craftsman bungalow, a stone house that could belong in Central or Atlantic Canada, and a standard wood-sided bungalow that could be anywhere from Newfoundland to BC.

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Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN (Post 9011385)

Lots of lonely widows - sound strategy! ;) Good point, despite being Canada’s west coast naval base, the navy does seem to be taken for granted in Victoria. Besides the welcome sign to Victoria and a few statues around town there is little recognition and it’s rarely mentioned even by Victorians. Is this the case in Halifax?

There is an anti-military/hippie/environmental attitude that is widespread, so maybe that’s part of it. You mentioned Ben Isitt, probably one of the most controversial city councillors in Canada - I can go on and on about his antics, but he’s enthralled with the former Soviet Union, and a communist sympathizer if not full on supporter. He’s promoted removing all symbols of Christmas, renaming Victoria, is strongly anti-military and anti-police. Yet he consistently tops the polls.. and the rest of Victoria city council (with one or two exceptions), while not as extreme isn’t far off his positions - and is dominated by University ideologues.

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Originally Posted by CivicBlues (Post 9011150)

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned First Nations Reserves as feeling the most "Canadian".

I almost did close to that in my post earlier, but in the end left it out (for a shorter post).

One angle that can be used here (as explained in that earlier post) is how much of the local stuff is "homegrown" (i.e. Canadian) as opposed to being "imported" (which usually means Anglo-American).

So with that view, a place like Quebec City is among the most homegrown/Canadian that you can find (especially for a city of a certain size), while places like Vancouver, Calgary and Southern Ontario would be some of the most "American" in the country, a.k.a. "least Canadian".

A city like Yellowknife would rank quite high as "Canadian" i.e. pretty well shielded from non-Canadian imports (cultural or material).

Quote:

Originally Posted by zoomer (Post 9011526)

My impression is that the navy is much more recognized in Halifax. It feels like more of a port town (finger wharves and now modern container terminals) and has the shipyard. The naval history is much deeper on the East Coast; in the 1700's and early 1800's the navy was what held the British Empire together, but by the late 1800's the railways became more important.

Halifax was founded as one of the primary British naval bases in the Americas; a stopping point between Britain and the US coast or the Caribbean.

Practically all of the big military campaigns of Canadian history were based out of Halifax. Quebec, Washington DC and Baltimore in 1812, etc. Even Crimea and the Northwest Rebellion ended up involving troops deployed from Halifax. A lot of the monuments around town relate to those events.

I think this is largely forgotten today but the British ran the naval facilities in Canada until 1907. Until that period many of the people living in Victoria or Halifax were from Britain but deployed in Canada. The naval officers were some of the local establishment figures with admirals being like governors.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 9010472)

I will surprise even myself as I have long referred to Montreal as the quintessential Canadian city, but I think that (in spite of allusions in Quebec to its imminent anglicization) Montreal is probably too "French" (or at least "Québécois") to place anywhere near the top of the Most Canadian list.

If I look around most of the country today, from Halifax to Vancouver via Winnipeg and Ottawa (and maybe even St. John's), if there are any big city cues taken from a Canadian metropolis, they're coming from Toronto. Not Montreal. Except for Quebec, across the country if anything from the local dining and foodie scene to the relationship to immigration and diversity "smacks" of anything, it smacks of a mini-Toronto, not a mini-Montreal.

For all the rhetoric about the bizarreness and deficiencies of the metropolis-hinterland relationship between Toronto and the ROC (also one of my favourite talking points!), there is a definitely a rapport there that does not exist with Montreal.

Ottawa and Moncton are today the outermost limits outside Quebec of any tangible influence of Montreal as a metropolis, and even in those two places I'd argue Toronto carries considerably more weight at this point.

Yeah, that's why I was kind of uncertain about listing it. Other than the Canadiens, Montreal doesn't factor much into life in Northern Ontario, even despite a sizable Francophone population.

In an alternate universe where Canada is 50% Anglo and 50% Franco perhaps it occupies a place like Brussels does in Belgium, sans being the capital. Or if you go 50-60 years back in time to the 1960s and ask the same question. I think I was perhaps projecting there.

I guess if I'm using the 'most Canadian' descriptor, I'm looking for a place where:

- it covers the demographic nature of the whole country reasonably well
- it catches the 'vibe' of an average Canadian, such that we can agree or disagree on such a thing
- I could actually see someone from anywhere in Canada being able to function there in a real fashion
- the climate, economy and geography reflect the country as best it can

Basically, I'm not going to disagree with anyone who lists Ottawa, Edmonton or Moncton either as most 'Canadian'.

Or who lists Calgary, Hamilton and Windsor as being least 'Canadian'.

Not that I particularly feel like I'm out of the country in those places, to be perfectly honest.

As for US cities, Chicago is a good choice. Dallas or Atlanta would be my second, but they might be too regional, too new. I'd actually struggle more with that question with respect to that country, as finding something that encompasses a nation as diverse as the United States is a big challenge. Or a place that isn't America at all.

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Originally Posted by someone123 (Post 9011635)

I think the history of active combat, especially during the world wars, has really cemented the navy as part of the civic identity in a way that I don't get the sense is replicated in Victoria.

At the same time, the civic culture is certainly not bellicose or militaristic or anything. It mostly fades into the background. In my experience the concentration of academic institutions is a bigger contributor to the local sense of place, but that may also have to do with where I live and my colleagues and social circles, etc.

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Originally Posted by Drybrain (Post 9011686)

The fact that the military bases are located in Esquimalt rather than Victoria also helps disassociate it from Victoria. Halifax was established as a military fortification and the large citadel is central to its core.

For the States, I'd choose San Juan and Honolulu as the least American. Anchorage doesn't strike me as being as distinct from the continental United States as the other two.

For most American... I guess the NYC all the way out to its exurbs. Upstate NY even does a good enough job of representing the South.

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...a disdain of large companies, chain restaurants, anything large scale really.

A lot of these notions about Victoria are just myths. Victorians love fast food chains, Starbucks, Tim Hortons, 7-11, and drive-throughs. Per capita comparisons with other supposedly unhealthy/unenlightened Canadian cities have never been flattering.

Also, Victorians fetishize their Wal-Mart supercentres and big box shopping generally, which is one of the reasons why the downtown core has taken such a massive hit in the past ~30 years.

It really depends on whether one is talking about being most Canadian functionally or symbolically. If we're looking at it in terms of functionally, this would be a matter of determining how the largest number of people live. By default this would be the metro area with the largest population, especially with the most people living in generic Canadian suburbia which is pretty similar in cities across the country. Since Toronto has the largest proportion of the country's population, it would therefore be most Canadian. In terms of symbolically, this would be the city that best represents the spirit or essence of the country. These would consider far more than how people currently live since it would also include history, imagery and icons. For instance, Canada is often thought of as being defined by nature and wilderness due to its low population density so a city being near mountains and pristine forest would give the city a boost in that category. So in that respect Vancouver would be more Canadian than Toronto or Montreal but probably less-so than Yellowknife.

Montreal on the other hand doesn't seem to have a fairly low proportion of it's population in traditional suburbia and seems fairly detached from large expanses of forest, instead being surrounded by farmland. So it would be an option for least Canadian symbolically. However, being so large it has a greater proportion of the total population than most cities so functionally it would be toward the top.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drybrain (Post 9011686)

I think the history of active combat, especially during the world wars, has really cemented the navy as part of the civic identity in a way that I don't get the sense is replicated in Victoria.

Some local historians (Thomas Raddall, etc.) used to argue that Halifax was most "in the war" city in Canada during both WWI and WWII (with a fatality rate to match). The Halifax Explosion and Magazine Hill were a part of that. The city was also under blackouts in WWII, with people wondering if and when bombings would start. For a while, people thought the Explosion was caused by Germans.

Most people who lived in Halifax in the 90's or so had relatives alive who were in WWII, remembered the Explosion, etc. The Cold War also had a big impact on the city. That is probably fading now.

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