Too bad Shapiro and Atkins completely botched the last 2 years and have hampered the chances of building a decent team around him anytime soon. I think it'll be awhile before we see anything close to 2015/16 numbers.

Indeed. The high from Friday for the Vlad Jr. game was the average for games in 2015 & 2016. :hmmm:

It's a shame. Even if you don't like baseball, you can't deny the energy that existed in the city during those couple summers when they seemed like contenders.

Not a chance when these millenials age and turn into yuppies it'll simply go from being a trend on the left to both sides of the isle.

Pearl Clutching has always been a staple in society. We had a brief reprieve from it because the pearl clutching of the past conflicted with consumerism and because it was tied so heavily in with Christianity.

Social justice advocacy is turning into a religion faster than most people realize. Some of the more idiotic elements will mature but your crazy if you think it's going away.

Without a religious tradition its inevitable.

It's bloody rare when you actually find a person who is properly disinterested.


The same conservatives fighting against it are the same types of people who will be for it in a generation or two.

Pearl clutching is something every society has, the luck we had was that previously it was all associated with christianity.

Your seeing people like Mike Pence who themselves are supporting this activity by having a rule where he won't be alone with woman.

The dirty secrets of SJW's is that pretty much everyone supports it from time to time.

There was a brief time between the 1960s and the late 90s where one could avoid this narrative and that was only because the pill create the biggest generation gap in all of human history.


Back to the point just as christians literally rewrote the history books(and retroactively tried to turn every cultural artifact christian, SJWs will do the same.

Were far too gone, I'm at the point tht I'm totally fatalistic about it. Were going back to a cultural framework that is more like the 1950s than we want to admit.

The metrics are simple SJWing is universally accepted by all classes. The rich like being able to differentiate themselves from the lower classes, poor minorities get their statuses, and majority poor get to have their voting power centralized under a social identity of simply being poor.

Offensive naming conventions are gone, anything that doesn't follow the SJW philosophy will be pushed aside.

The problem with social values is that the there is rarely a counter movement that is both interested enough in social norms and paradoxially at the same time fighting to keep them free to make a difference.

But don't worry the concussion issue is gonna due far more damage to sports than anything else.

We are becoming a hyper sensitive society and this will only increase year by year unless we face some serious crisis.

Considering the rates of crime associated with Alcohol, the risk of drunk driving(unless there is actually no tailgates at these parties), the physical health risks associated with it, and the legal fact that you loose your ability to consent to your own behavior, alcohol is not gonna become liberalized.

Prohibition was an entirely different era in our history.

Society as a whole is far better at fighitng corruption, in addition were a society that is far better at factually understanding the issues associated with the drug.

Pot wasn't legalized because people deserve more freedom, it was legalized because alcohol is a far better drug to penalize.

Ironic considering you use the words a "climate of outrage".

How long is it before the Oilers get attacked for its association with global warming deniers.

I take it as a decade max before the Oilers become the Edmonton Solars.

I wish I were joking but I am most certainly not.

My impression is that, isolated liberalization measures aside, we're pretty close to the "high water mark" when it comes to the place of alcohol in society.

It's pretty much peaked at the level it's gonna peak, and the broader trend will be a slow decline in its social acceptability. For the reasons you've given and other changes happening society.

Already it seems to be slowly retreating quickly from anything work-related like business lunches, company picnics or retirement lunches. Whereas it used to be commonplace at such functions.

I think the deal breaker is the nature of the drug. It isn't as inherently addictive as more destructive drugs. It gathers a large degree of its issues from social norms.

It's completely acceptable by more than a few to act in ways that are virtually unacceptable on any other type of drug.

Alcohol is 100 percent a social drug, which is largely why it is tolerated and by the same paradox while it is such a plight on society.

I literally think it's worst than cocaine or heroin directly because it wouldn't remotely be an issue if it were treated like the drug it factually is.

Virtually everyone I've ever met has had their worst moments in their life attached to the drug.

Whether it be sexual assault, family conflict, injuries induced, dollars wasted, fights, etc etc.

I've only met a handful of non drinkers who have much of a tolerance for the drug or atleast being around people who use the drug. Again it only gets by because its considered to be a social drug.

Can't say that's my experience. Startup culture and attracting millenial talent has put an emphasis on keeping people in the office with perks like alcohol. Having a beer on tap at the workplace would have been unheard of before 2000. Now it's a staple at every WeWork office and numerous legit startups. I see pictures from friends who work in tech or marketing firms who have scotch tastings every month at the office. Actually I remember walking into Ubisoft's 900 employee office in Toronto and seeing a row of a hundred or so empty whiskey bottles in the employee cafeteria from such events.

Hell, even my comparably stuffy job in capital markets has a cooler of beers dropped off every Friday in the summer that we usually start drinking at 3pm. I think maybe the stereotypical image of the lawyer in a 3-piece suit going out for a boozy lunch is fading, but alcohol in the physical workplace is reaching new heights and I love it.

That's interesting. Thanks for the counterpoint.

Most major law firms have installed bars into their offices, so instead of going out for a drink at lunch lawyers are encouraged to get together and drink every Friday.

At least in the legal industry, the prevalence/encouragement of drinking has become a major issue for an industry prone to substance abuse. Many firms have or are planning to stop having Friday drinks because it encourages the use of alcohol as an unhealthy coping mechanism.

It's a weird world when the ultra-conservative legal industry is looking to ditch booze while startups flock to it, but it's a weird world in general.

Your talking about the end of a century long tradition not the beginning of a new one.

Obviously young people working together will drink together.

Isn't capital markets more of a cocaine crowd though? My friend worked in currency trading and she said there was a culture of betting mixed with cocaine. They'd make friendly wagers on about 30-40 things a day (would this go up, would that go down, etc.) and do lines constantly right out in the open. Management knew but it was tolerated as long as they kept making the bank money.

I think actually doing coke in the office was an 80's thing. Adderall, vyvanse, etc. is what you use to get through a 14 hour work day. Coke is still big for partying after work and at industry/company events etc.

I work in a real estate focused capital markets role, but from what I've seen it's pretty similar in IB, sell-side equity, etc.

Now this conversation has gone way off the rails (no pun intended).

NLL 2019 Regular Season final attendances, season average (over nine home games):

Team - Attendance (change from 2018 season)
Saskatchewan - 13,459 (-1,180)
Buffalo - 13,046 (-1,135)
Colorado - 12,815 (-1,262)
Calgary - 12,593 (+746)
Philadelphia - 10,905 (NEW)
Toronto - 9,476 (-224)
San Diego - 7,769 (NEW)
Vancouver - 6,833 (+3,326)*
Georgia - 6,698 (+2,261)
Rochester - 6,440 (-320)
New England - 5,526 (-31)
* Vancouver relocated from Langley to Vancouver for the 2019 season, moving from the Langley Events Centre to Rogers Arena

Halifax and New York (Uniondale) will be joining next season.

https://pointstreak.com/prostats/att...seasonid=18464

Are Halifax and NY expansion teams or relocations?

Rochester is relocating to Halifax. The Pegulas are then getting an expansion team and operating them out of Rochester. IIRC the Knighthawks trademark and branding remains in Rochester but the players and personnel are moved to Halifax.

New York is pure expansion.

So technically Rochester and NY (Uniondale) are expansions next season with Halifax getting a relocated team.

Interesting.

I'm not sure how it is in other provinces, but it's amazing how little coverage NLL gets in Manitoba (including via national outlets like TSN and such), especially considering that there are 4 Canadian teams that draw fairly well. I am aware of the league's existence but not really of anything else.

Contrast that with MLS which only has 3 Canadian teams and gets way more coverage... I'm not a soccer fan but even I am generally aware of how the Canadian teams are doing, partly because it's always on TV and in the papers.

I always forget we have the NLL. I've never been to a game but I'm going to try to a game or two.

NLL coverage in Edmonton has completely disappeared since the Rush left for Saskatoon. When it was here, the team had some media coverage but the owner did an absolutely terrible job of selling the game. Instead of marketing the game, team and players, he spent all his marketing budget on bringing in UFC fighters and NFL cheerleaders for photo ops.

There were plenty of rumours a couple years ago of Katz wanting to buy a team—I believe he tried to buy the Rush, but it's been awfully quiet of late.

I doubt most sports fans in Quebec are even aware the NLL exists. Zero visibility here.

I suppose if you asked, some would assume a league exists somewhere, like they might assume a rugby or cricket league does. Even if it is not on their radar.

The Rock draw decent attendance at the ACC. Usually get a good portion of the lower bowl filled. Problem is there's zero media coverage for the sport. It's surprising given how popular youth lacrosse is in Southern Ontario. To be fair I've always found that the sport doesn't translate to tv very well. We talk about how when watching hockey you have to anticipate where the puck is going and focusing on players and not the actual puck itself. Lacrosse takes that to another level.

The fact that even high-level players can be oblivious to where the ball is is pretty unique. I love watching this video, but it also kind of shows how it would be difficult for a casual fan to follow along.

• Video Link

That's really interesting, because it's been the exact opposite scenario in Saskatoon. The marketing in the first few months was really suspect (their tagline was "Hot Winter Nights" which just screams minor league) but once the season got underway they've done a fantastic job marketing the team (their weird Baby it's Cold Outside promotion notwithstanding). There is Rush branding all over the city and they get a lot of news coverage; they've definitely supplanted the Blades as the most visible team in the city.

Now that I'm here in Edmonton I find it pretty surprising that no one really seems to remember the Rush. It's not like they drew terribly or were short lived. I'm surprised Katz hasn't picked up a team to fill dates at Rogers Place, to be honest.

As an outside observer they just get certain aspect of things wrong. Those shorts look hideous in contrast to those jerseys. It's so asymmetrical and looks like a hockey player couldn't afford pants. Pretty much every other sport gets that you need highly stylized gear as a basic.

At the same time they aren't taking advantage of the exoticism of the sport. You need to sell the sport as if "this is what the Incas/Aztecs played" this is a sport that was entirely developed in the Americas. Having team names like "Rush" just makes it sound like they are a knockoff of North American Sports.

At the very least the sport needs the visible involvement of aboriginal communities.

The Iroquois have their own national team and compete separately from Canada/US.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_W...e_Championship

That's fine but that's not translating to the NLL I just watched.

He still does the same in Saskatoon, bringing Dallas Cowboys, Seattle Seahawks & Minnesota Viking Cheerleaders etc to add to the game day appeal of Rush games at SaskTel Centre.

https://saskatoon.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId=1338809

From what i've seen with the Rush in Saskatoon, nobody really cares how stylized the gear is for garnering spectator excitement, most people are just interested in the speed and agility of the players & fast paced action of the game.

'Rush' was a good fit for the team in Saskatchewan, the other two pro sports teams in the province, Riders and Rattlers are also names with the letter R and green for the main colour make for consistent sports exposure in the province cross promoting each sport even in the off season, plus no one can say the names are expropriation of aboriginal culture.

I assume this was just an example of a potential marketing angle, and that you know that Incas and Aztecs did not play lacrosse?

Yes, I just think its the logical choice. Marketing new sports is tough.

Soccer has the whole world sport thinger.

Hockey is just a crazy ass idea.

Basketball is cheap and everyone plays it.

Football is an intense spectacle.

Baseball has over a century of history/statistics.

Lacrosse has hyper organic origins.

Yes, I agree that lacrosse has lots of potential. And it's not really been marketed that well so far.

Between the Oilers, Oil Kings and all the concerts that don't go to Calgary, I doubt Rogers has enough free dates to host a NLL team.

With the NBL/CEBL, Premier League, CFL, and CHL the only major sport where Canada has no professional league will be baseball. It would be nice if regional variations of Ontario's Intercounty Baseball League will spring up and together be part of a national baseball league.

^^
...you mean like the Western Canadian Baseball League (WCBL) that's been in operation since 1931? :shrug:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wester...aseball_League

I don't know about that. If Toronto, Denver, and Philly can all make it work, there's no reason Edmonton couldn't if they tried.

We tried that once. The best thing that can be said about it is that it is now the textbook example of how to not start a domestic sports league.

The WCBL isn't a professional league, is it?

It seems unlikely to me that we'll see a domestic Canadian baseball league. The habit of just tagging along on whatever the Americans are doing is too entrenched. By contrast, with soccer, the US doesn't dominate the way that it does with baseball, and that leaves some oxygen in the room for a Canadian league.

The Western Canadian Baseball League is a summer collegiate league. Semi-pro would probably be a more accurate description?

I'm guessing crowds for that typical average 500 - 1000. If it is that low, that is university level gatherings. Not really pro level in my books.

Intercounty isn't pro ball either.

They 100% could. It was already done at Rexall Place before the Rush left for Saskatoon and Rogers Place opened. Staples Center in LA has two NBA teams, an NHL team, a WNBA team and an absolute full slate of concerts, awards shows, etc. At one time, between 2006-2008, Staples Center had 6 pro teams using it (NBAx2, NHL, WNBA, AFL and NBDL).

...this really just shows how little you know about a league, you ( and isaidso) have never heard of before...
nice guess though ;)

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...nton-1.4709619

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...474d8786_b.jpg
http://www.charliesballparks.com/st/ph/AB-Edmonton-TELUS-2.jpg

The disparity between ballparks in that league is astonishing. Telus Field is an absolute gem, but compare that to the park Saskatoon played at before they folded... :yuck:

^^ at capacity for 5,000 people each, Shell Park in Fort McMurray & Saskatoon's Cairns Field are astonishingly teeny tiny.

https://live.staticflickr.com/448/19...bffe1c37_b.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairns_Field

Med Hat & Lethbridge's ballparks are even smaller at 3,000... god forbid

The WCBL's natural habitat is small community parks with maybe around a thousand seats.

When there is a larger facility that no one else is using like in Edmonton or Okotoks, they'll use that.

That's not a photo of Cairns Field. That's Bob Van Impe Stadium, which is located immediately next to Cairns; you can tell because it has a curved grandstand and is playing host to a softball game in that photo (the stadium isn't designed for baseball).

This is Cairns Field (taken from this source, which also says it seats 2000):

https://classicballfields.com/baseba...s_field-31.jpg

^^good catch!, Saskatoon has all the 'bases covered' when it comes to playing ball apparently ;)

.. I was also wondering how 5,000 people could possibly fit in that stadium of picture I posted.

The pic you posted looks a lot more likely to host capacity of 5,000 people when Saskatoon had a team in the league.
Thanks for correcting pic :tup:

Both stadiums relied heavily on temporary outfield bleachers to inflate their capacity numbers. Back when I used to go to Yellow Jackets games a majority of people would sit in the outfield to try and catch a ball (though they were kindly asked to return them afterwards). There would maybe be thirty people in the big stand in that photo. I remember hearing rumours it was going to be torn down.

They did the same thing for Bob Van Impe when it hosted the Softball Worlds a few years ago, only they had beer gardens and the like in the outfield. As a small aside: that was an amazing event for Saskatoon to host, and hopefully they will do it again soon (I remember the organization being very impressed with the facilities in Saskatoon and PA).

288 games in 2017. That means an average of 781 persons per game. It's made up of former college and university players. At least half the stadiums are community level in quality ie) Currie Field. Melville with 4,000 people is in the league. Like I said, not a really pro league. Posting pics of a rare decent crowd does not make it a legit pro league.

Examples of smaller, but legit pro leagues

1. Canadian Premier League
2. NLL
3. American Association of Independent Professional Baseball
4. USL
5. NBA G League
6. Single A Baseball
7. Arena Football

Pretty much. Several stadiums look like they seat 500 - maybe 1000. Community level facilities you see all over the place. The ones in Alberta are actual decent level starter level stadiums when and if a real pro league gets started up that can draw an average of at least 1500 - 2,000 per game.

who exactly suggested that the WCBL was a pro league to begin with?

I'm still waiting for your synopsis of the Ontario Intercounty Baseball League legitimacy just so you aren't looking like playing favoritism between leagues ;)

The original proposition was finding other regional baseball leagues in Canada to 'spring up' & be matched with the Ontario league to have games with.

Isaidso said there was no professional baseball league in Canada. YOu brought up the Western League. I merely stated its not a real pro league.

^^ Why have you repeated that WCBL isn't a pro league in each and every single one of your posts regarding, but didn't mention once anything about Ontario InterCounty Baseball League including isn't a pro league & with stadiums capacity averaging around a thousand?

I just want the Ontario league to have equal representation on this forum ;)