Zero public dollars should be used to make it "NHL-ready". It would be a total waste of money.

The only public money that should be used for FOC is for the bare minimum needed for maintenance so that it doesn't fall apart.

However, depending on the price-tag - I wouldn't have a problem with using public money to renovate the exterior. It's such an eye-sore and a exterior refresh would go a long way in sprucing up the downtown since it takes up so much space. I would love to have it look something like the "re-imagination" image included.

im all for an updated exterior but that consultants rendering makes it look like a renovated limeridge mall.

I like it.

I disagree. It has the look of a modern office building - which I think looks nice.

It would be sweet to host WJHC games. We need an "NHL calibre" arena for that. Doesn't mean we are gunning for an NHL team or as expensive like the ACC.

There's tons more of conceptual renderings in the pdf link. It's a massive file size though, so it'll take awhile to load.

Yea, but spending that kind of money just to host the WJHC every 5 years at most is a terrible return on investment. You only make it "NHL ready" if you have an NHL team as a tenant.

Don't understand why the City owns Copps or those other facilities. Do they actually make money on them? I'd be stunned.

^ This. We need a "like" button on the Syscraper Forum!

New Hamilton arena in Bulldogs owner’s playbook

https://www.thespec.com/sports-story...er-s-playbook/

The owner of the Hamilton Bulldogs says it's time for this city to build a new arena to replace the antiquated FirstOntario Centre. And he's ready to put his money where his vision is to make that happen.

Michael Andlauer says he's been contemplating this for years but he's now reached the point that he's prepared and eager to get rolling.

"I'd love to do something," he says.

While Mayor Fred Eisenberger sounds decidedly noncommittal about getting involved in any project of this scale, he says the city is willing to listen.

Andlauer, a part-owner of the Montreal Canadiens who's owned the local team for nearly 15 years and has kept it in the FirstOntario Centre, says he'd like to see a new 5,000-10,000-seat facility built somewhere within the city. He expects it would cost between $60 million and $100 million, depending on size and amenities.

At 32 years old, the arena formerly known as Copps Coliseum is approaching relic status among North American venues. In February, the city lost out on hosting the Memorial Cup in large part because the organizing committee said the arena simply wasn't good enough.

A month later, a consultant's report said it would take $68 million to make the kinds of changes that would update the facility to extend its life. However, council voted to pass on that option and simply pay for maintenance and repair as needed.

Asked for his thoughts on their decision at that time, Andlauer offered no comment. But he now says it's time to get started on a new project.

"We have to look at the future of sports and entertainment in this city in terms of facilities," he says. "I mean, it happens everywhere across North America. I'm open to suggestions. I'm open to participating."

He points to London's 9,100-seat Budweiser Gardens, Oshawa's 5,500-seat General Motors Centre, Mississauga's 5,000-seat Hershey Centre and St. Catharines' 5,300-seat Meridian Centre as guides for what Hamilton could emulate: a modern facility with up-to-date amenities that are more appropriately sized for most of the events that come here — and far more appropriate for an Ontario Hockey League team — than the 17,000-seat arena.

The most recently built of those is the Meridian Centre, which came in at about $50 million. Which really brings us to the crux of the whole thing.

What about the money?

It's become abundantly clear that the city isn't interested in forking out endless millions for such a project. Not when FirstOntario Centre is still standing. And not when Hamilton has a $3-billion-plus infrastructure deficit hanging over its head.

"Obviously, cost and who bears the cost is going to be the central issue," Eisenberger says. "If Mr. Andlauer is prepared to finance something like that, that makes the conversation a lot easier."

While Andlauer says the city would likely have to be part of the project — whether that's all cash or a combination of cash and land is unclear — he's prepared to pay a significant portion of the cost out of his own pocket.

How much, exactly?

"I would jump in (with) whatever makes sense," he says.

Of course, owners of other franchises in cities all over the world have said similar things to get the ball rolling on a stadium or arena but have then begun squeezing their wallets when it came time to fork out. Should we not be concerned about the same thing happening here?

"No," Andlauer says. "I'm talking something substantial."

If a new arena was built, FirstOntario Centre could either be kept as a larger venue for concerts and events or it could be removed and the land on which it stands could be redeveloped publicly or privately to continue the growth of the downtown. This, of course, suggests a new building would not be constructed on the same footprint and might be located outside the core.

While no specific potential locations have been made public by anyone, Ward 7 Coun. Donna Skelly told The Spectator's Matthew Van Dongen that Lime Ridge Mall is the top property taxpayer in the city but is now in flux with Sears closing and the retail sector facing challenges from online commerce. Creating something in that area could be intriguing.

"We've had very, very, very preliminary conversations with him to see if there was an opportunity somewhere in the central Mountain," she said.

However, Eisenberger says he believes keeping any arena in the downtown would be key.

"Creating critical mass on sports and entertainment in the central part of the city, I think, is the right thing to do," he says.

Andlauer's not getting far ahead of himself to begin locking into specific sites yet. He simply wants the city to approach him with an idea. Or at least to show a willingness to explore what they might do together.

"As long as it makes sense for all parties, then it's worth doing," Andlauer says. "I think there's an opportunity to make something worthwhile, I really do."

He can build it on that area by the lake they leveled to build the stadium which never got used.

Also I wouldn't be entirely sad to see copps go and have something useful built there. I wouldn't be sad to see a lot of that complex disappear in all honesty.

As long as it's private money used to build a new 5,000-10,000-seat arena, more power to them. However, Hamilton still needs FOC so we can host larger events - so a new smaller arena would have to be built somewhere else.

the area down by the waterfront would be ideal !!!
seeing a stadium up on the mountain would be a disaster and such a bad move on the city's end.... i still cant believe that they built that beautiful board of education building and hid it in a cul de sac behind suburban homes LOL what a joke !
losing out on the revenue that a sports event brings to the core before and after an event would be such an amateur move

yeah that would be another death stroke to the core if they built it up on the mountain - they need to start refocusing entertainment in the core.

any stop that is feasible along the LRT ..... with an expansive underground parking garage as part of it, maybe even beside Tim Horton Field.

I can't see that being a good thing.

why not?

I agree with the LRT ideal. I could see the city providing land/tax breaks for this if the building was done without municipal money. If that's the case they should definitely also make the case for it to be on the LRT line.

Although nothing will likely come of this any time soon and he is likely just testing the waters to see if their was any appetite for city hall to give up some cash for hockey infrastructure... wondering if we will see the "bulldogs will be forced to move" threat.

how many subdivisions would they have to demolish to put it there?

It was a mistake putting the stadium where it is, why double-down on the mistake with an arena?

In any case, I'm sure a new smaller arena doesn't happen anyway.

What's the future of hockey in Hamilton? Junior? Maybe another AHL team? If that's the case then perhaps they ought to just use Mountain Arena and stop being silly about a new arena. Unless, of course, it's privately financed in which case they can do what they like...

To Laval, QC or St. John's, NL, perhaps.

It's a measure of how little people care about this team that it's already forgotten that the threat was already made and acted upon during the Katz-Otters debacle, and that the club is now only three years old:

One inescapable problem for the OHL Bulldogs is their position in the food chain.

OHL players can move laterally within the CHL or graduate to the AHL or NHL, and AHL players can graduate to the NHL, but OHL is age-limited and relies on AAA talent.

On top of that, NHL scouts render their verdict on players to watch — i.e. a team's draft prospects — after a just half-dozen home games. That's great for attendance and morale if you have first-round picks flagged but potentially problematic if your profile with the scouts is thin. Consider:

2015-16: 5 C Rated
2016-17: 2 A Rated, 2 B Rated, 1 C Rated
2017-18: 1 C Rated

Mountain arena is not up to AHL or OHL standards. not even close. the leagues wouldn't allow teams to play there

agreed on the private money part. Agreed on the smaller arena having to be built somewhere else(so whats even the point), no way Hamilton can support a 17,000 and 5-10,000 seat arena. Not enough events to go around to make them profitable.

I would be more comfortable with the city pitching in to the proposed venue at the Main/MacNab church versus this. I might be able to tolerate a land deal but that's about it. In my opinion it should remain in its current location, meaning Copps should be torn down & replaced/renovated

I agree with this. The ACC is at the centre of Toronto, right beside Union. Hamilton moving the stadium away from easy outside access, as well as access to those in the city would be disastrous. Plus as Coops gets busier as Hamilton grows, it will feed the restaurants, bars and nightlife around the stadium.

Replaced with a 5,000-10,000 seat arena?

I concur. I think all of jackson should be renovated personally.



how much is copps ever filled to full capacity out of curiosity?

Bulldogs owner offers marching dollars for new arena

https://www.thespec.com/sports-story...for-new-arena/

The owner of the Hamilton Bulldogs has followed up his public call for the building of a new, smaller arena to replace FirstOntario by saying he'd be willing to personally pay for half of it.

Michael Andlauer had previously said he'd be willing to cover a "substantial" amount for any such project. But pressed for a more-precise figure — tough to do when nobody knows exactly what a rink would cost — he offered the 50-50 proposition.

"If I said I'd match what the city would put in, would that be deemed substantial?" he asked.

Even with that now out there, there's a question about whether city council will be willing to seriously entertain such a discussion.

Andlauer has said he'd like to see a 5,000- to 10,000-seat arena constructed somewhere in town, which he expects would cost between $60 million and $100 million, depending on the bells and whistles attached. He says he understands that relying totally on public money when budgets are tight isn't feasible.

"That's why I'm willing to put money into it," he says. "A lot more than anybody else in this city's ever put into sports."

While suggestions were offered by Ward 7 Coun. Donna Skelly that somewhere on the central Mountain could be an ideal location — the Lime Ridge Mall area was mentioned — Mayor Fred Eisenberger said last week that he believes keeping any new facility in the downtown core would be a priority.

Others might disagree and make the case that removing an arena from the corner of Bay and York and using that prime downtown property for future development would be a better, and more-lucrative, use of city land.

Andlauer says nothing is yet out of the question. In fact, other than saying demographics would have to be taken into account, he took a soft line on possible locations.

"I have had some preliminary talks with the city and I've asked them, 'Here's a clear canvas. You go ahead and paint your canvas,'" he says. "I don't want to dictate where it's going to go. I don't know any better (than others). I think the city councillors who represent all the citizens in the city, they should have their voice and they should know what's in the best interest.

Where it might be built is secondary, however. Eisenberger had previously cited the cost of building a new arena as the central issue in any discussion. Which makes sense since the city is facing a $3-billion-plus infrastructure deficit.

During a radio interview on 900CHML this week, he proposed the idea of private interests — as in, Andlauer by himself or with partners — making a go of this alone. Leaving public money out of it completely would make this a very different discussion, he said.

The owner says putting 100 per cent of the economic load on him might not work. However, he added that a new building would remove city requirements to continually pay for repairs and maintenance (a transformer fire in the arena's hydro room left the entire building in the dark for most of Thursday afternoon). This would potentially mean that once the initial capital investment was made up front, the city would no longer have to subsidize ongoing expenses.

Which all leads to the question of whether the bread crumbs Andlauer has now laid along the path will be enough to lead the issue to the council table for a serious discussion.

"No," says Coun. Sam Merulla. "Not at all. At this point we have nothing to put forward because we can't afford it."

He believes the majority of his council colleagues — who have been through the angry stadium debate and the contentious LRT fight — would share that opinion based on how quickly they dismissed talk of spending over $200 million to bring FirstOntario Centre up to NHL standards (or even modernizing the bottom bowl at a cost of close to $70 million) as suggested in a consultant's report. And how disinterested they were in entertaining the idea of hosting the 2030 Commonwealth Games.

Skelly, on the other hand, says they shouldn't be so quick to throw it aside.

"I believe it would be irresponsible not to engage in that discussion," she says.

Something has to be done with the arena eventually, she says.

On that radio show this week, Eisenberger agreed — with the first part of that sentiment, anyway.

"Sooner or later we're going to have to deal with this issue," he said. "Because it is aging."

They should speak to McMaster University, I know McMaster explored the idea of a hockey arena for the Marauders. I also know David Braley was willing to donate millions towards an arena, however the idea just faded away as they focused more towards the stadium.

Let's say it's $100 million than $50 million from Andlauer, $25 million both from McMaster and the City. Could probably bring the price tag down if we got donations from Braley or even Joyce.

The problem with private interests building an arena is that they would have to pay property taxes on it. That's why most owners are willing to contribute but would rather the city own the building.

Mm. Good point!

I'd be a fan of an arena at Mac if it wasn't downtown. It helps that the LRT terminal will also be there. An arena near Eastgate would also work for the same reason. One up the mountain sounds absolutely silly though.

I personally think the Tim Hortons stadium would have been best suited for the Innovation park areaish. Around where the LRT garage will be. Tons of room, on the LRT route, and close to the highway. Having big even spaces like Copps in the downtown like the ACC brings tourists and outsiders to the centre of the city. Tourists force the city to ensure the downtown is safe and well lit as outsiders will be more judgemental.

Millions in repairs needed for Convention Centre, FirstOntario Centre
(Hamilton Spectator, Matthew Van Dongen, Nov 21 2017)

The city needs to find at least $2 million to fix the crumbling exterior of the Hamilton Convention Centre to avoid the future possibility of bricks falling on people below.

That capital funding request is just a fraction of nearly $7 million in convention centre repairs deemed to need "immediate action" this year or next - as well as another $4 million to replace failing escalators and elevators in the FirstOntario Centre.

A study of the convention centre brick earlier this year discovered loose or crumbling brick at various locations around the 35-year-old building, spurring immediate brick removal and repairs as well as unspecified "adjustments" to exit locations to ensure public safety, a new report says.

But more work is needed, soon.

"It is suggested that spalling brick faces will pose a safety hazard in the future, if not further addressed," say staff in the report, which note weakened areas of brick will worsen during freeze-thaw cycles.

The report asks council to approve $2 million as a priority in next year's capital budget. It also notes a study of the entire building has found $6.7 million in repairs that deserve "immediate action," but notes acknowledges the challenge of competing budget requests - including a separate and urgent $4 million for FirstOntario Centre.

The information comes in two separate reports headed to a city budget meeting Friday outline a combined $45 million in required - but unfunded - repairs to the city's three aging entertainment facilities in the core, which also includes Hamilton Place.

The $4 million request for the former Copps Coliseum would cover replacing four failing escalators, installing a new elevator and "modernization" of two existing elevators.

Read it in full here.

I'd like to see Copps turned into an exhibition complex, the new convention centre. A new arena at the city owned land at Stuart/Tiffany area.

Sell the convention centre building and probably get a few millions, use the money towards the arena. Would make a great spot for retail and condos being right next to the HSR transit terminal.

I think the whole upper layer of jackson should be redone as an entertainment complex - that area is so underutilized.

A change like that would benefit King St in that area at street level so much. Wonder if moving the government office space above elsewhere something we'd ever likely see though.

Interesting idea re: re-purposing the arena as a convention centre. I'm envisioning something like what was done with Maple Leaf Gardens... take out the lower seats and use that whole level as exhibition space, as some of the seating is movable now for that purpose (or keep some sections of seating for theatre-style rooms), build a new floor for the top level, and unlike MLG clear out the entire upper level seating for a larger exhibit hall. It would probably take significant renos to make it work though, demolishing the upper grandstands to allow for more volume, and bringing in some natural light either through big new windows in the walls or a roof with skylights.

The current convention centre though... how is Carmen's doing running that show? Are they getting lots of smaller business and events in there? It might be fine left as-is, with whatever refurbishments are needed to the building itself.

Of course, this is all predicated on the city having the funds to make it happen, as well as invest in 1/2+ of a new arena. I'd say it will be 10-20 years before this might even be feasible, if the city's economic trajectory continues to head upward.

Copps/FOC has also allowed many, many large events to be hosted in the city. I agree with the argument that it's too big for lower tier hockey, but that capacity is a wonderful thing to have when a big concert tour or sports event comes to town.

Carmens does pretty damn well in all honesty.

Two Canada Cup finals, multiple NHL regular season games, multiple NBA regular season games, several games with the US Dream Team II for the FIBA World Championships, a U2 concert, multiple Springsteen concerts, multiple Grateful Dead concerts, multiple big wresting pay-per-view events (including the first-ever Royal Rumble), multiple Garth Brooks concerts, many flavour-of-the-day pop concerts (New Kids On The Block at their peak, Britney Spears at her peak), Paul McCartney, and many others are examples of events that would very likely not have taken place without an arena the size of Copps Coliseum.

A ton of events that could have been held at a smaller arena sold out at Copps (at least one game in the World Junior hocky championships, the Memorial Cup final, one of the Calder Cup finals games, an Arkells concert, a bunch of Tragically Hip concerts, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera).

It is a bit unfortunate that the Bulldogs do not have a more appropriately sized arena to play in, but they are not the only lower-tier team to play in an outsized arena. And to be honest, I don't think the city should be making major infrastructure decisions simply to right-size to a team that may not be a permanent fixture in the city, no matter how dedicated and civic-minded the owner may be.

If Hamilton were to downgrade to a smaller main arena, it would also be downgrading itself to much smaller-city status in my opinion. Heck, Prince George, BC has a total of about 75,000 people and has a 6000-person arena. Should Hamilton be building one of comparable size?

Also, (and this is admittedly an impractical thought that doesn't on its own warrant a spend of hundreds of millions of dollars) there is something actually ambitious about always holding open the possibility of having an NHL team come to Hamilton. Yes, it does seem about as far from being a reality as ever at this particular moment in time, but the world can change very quickly and I like the idea of keeping the door open.

Thanks for being honest.

The Bulldogs represent a substantial chunk of the event calendar for that facility — as an AHL franchise, they were playing around 40 dates a year, and as an OHL franchise, 34 dates a year, plus training camp and practice days. (The coliseum was seeing between 83 and 91 event days annually in 2007-2010, and that has dipped to around 72 this year.) But the Bulldogs are only signing three-year leases that are sufficiently vague to allow for any tier of hockey. Globe & Mail, Jan 26 2015:

That's the kind of long-term commitment we're talking about, and despite the club's familiar brand, essentially the extent of their practical leverage — and it’s offset by the fact that the facility would have, let’s say, an additional 50 dates a year in which to book events.

Building a $100M arena, even with Andlauer's promised capital cost sharing, would require Council to commit something close to what they coughed up for the Ticats. Except they won't be able to drain the Future Fund, but will have to ask taxpayers to foot the bill directly, and explain that this new facility will competing for bookings with other City-owned facilities, which would require ongoing operational subsidies. CBC Hamilton, Jan 27 2014:

On top of which, Global Spectrum is partnered with Live Nation, who would presumably have no incentive to book shows at a competing venue in-market if it could be avoided.

Merulla's dream: ‘This could be a billion-dollar development’
(Hamilton SPectator, Scott Radley, Nov 23 2017)

A city councillor says he has a billion-dollar idea for anyone willing to build a new arena, convention centre and concert hall in the downtown with their own money.

Coun. Sam Merulla says the city should consider transferring ownership of the FirstOntario Centre, the Hamilton Convention Centre and FirstOntario Concert Hall properties to a developer in exchange for the construction of privately built new facilities.

Once those essentials were looked after, that developer — or consortium of developers — could add lucrative residential and commercial facets to the plan as they wished.

"This could be a billion-dollar development," Merulla says.

The Ward 4 councillor will be introducing a notice of motion to that effect at Friday's general issues committee meeting.

This is the latest manoeuvre in a story that came to life a couple of weeks ago when Hamilton Bulldogs owner Michael Andlauer said the city should be exploring the construction of a new 5,000-10,000-seat arena which would likely cost between $60 million and $100 million. At the time he said he would match whatever the city put toward the project.

Those comments didn't initially get much official traction. But on Monday, council heard immediate repairs or upgrades costing more than $6 million are recommended for the convention centre and arena. The city's annual budget for such repairs is $800,000. Millions more will eventually be needed for less-urgent repairs to the city's three aging entertainment venues.

In the wake of that, Merulla crafted his motion that could leave Hamilton with a new rink and a new convention centre at no monetary cost to taxpayers. It might also bring the downtown a highrise condo development and commercial options that would provide significant tax revenue to the city.

"This is a win beyond comprehension for the taxpayers," he says. "There's no downside."

If this concept sounds somewhat similar to the gist of a consultant's report suggesting a private arena-convention centre development in the core that was essentially pushed aside by council almost as soon as it was submitted to the city back in March, Merulla doesn't disagree. Though the residential and commercial components are now new.

What's clearly changed today is the urgency to do something in light of the necessary repairs to the existing buildings that will cost the city millions. With millions more possibly being required down the road.

And while the billion-dollar figure might be slightly hyperbolic — even Merulla acknowledges it might not be quite that high — there's no doubt this would be a massive development that would likely be bigger than anything else in the city short of the LRT.

His plan appears to have some support around the council table, at least as an idea to explore.

Read it in full here.

*forks out a billion dollars*

Oh right, I don't have a billion dollars, nor do most people...


No problem :)

I wonder if any highrises associated with the project would be limited by the escarpment in height. I'm guessing no.

City will spend millions to fix arena, convention centre
https://www.thespec.com/news-story/7...ention-centre/

The city will make badly needed repairs to its downtown arena and convention centre while exploring the potential for wholesale private redevelopment of the precinct.

Councillors voted Friday to spend $4.3 million replacing broken escalators and small inaccessible elevators at the FirstOntario Centre next year. Another $2 million will go to prevent falling brick hazards outside the Hamilton Convention Centre.

But budget committee members also approved a motion from Coun. Sam Merulla that asks staff to report on possible redevelopment or sale scenarios for all three city-owned core entertainment facilities, including the arena, convention centre and concert hall.

"If we're successful, this could create an entire residential, commercial and entertainment precinct," he said.

A privately funded consulting report pitching a $68-million renovation or complete $250-million rebuild of the former Copps Coliseum was received coolly by councillors and set aside earlier this year.

The problem with that pitch, Merulla argued, was the city was asked "for money it doesn't have." His motion asked staff to investigate legally feasible methods of redeveloping the aging block "with the land as the city's contribution."

Mayor Fred Eisenberger applauded the idea of a long-term look at the "entire precinct."

He suggested the possibility of an eventual request for proposal that would "appeal to development interests looking for a big play."

But he also stressed the importance of making immediate investments in the buildings to keep them "safe and functional." Normally, the city has only spent about $800,000 in capital repairs each year for all three core entertainment buildings combined.

Including the new entertainment facilities cash, councillors voted to approve a $236-million capital budget for 2018. The spending equates to a $30 hike on the average homeowner's tax bill. The final tax hike won't be determined until the operating budget is set in the new year.

Years to move on new Hamilton arena too long: Bulldogs owner
(Hamilton Spectator, Scott Radley, Feb 2 2018)

A recent comment by Mayor Fred Eisenberger that it could take years for the city to decide what to do with FirstOntario Centre has prompted the owner of the Hamilton Bulldogs to say that's far too protracted a time frame and the pace has to be accelerated.

Eisenberger was on 900CHML with Bill Kelly the other day when he was asked for an update on what's going on with the aging, 33-year-old arena. This question was in response to Michael Andlauer's offer of a few months ago to put millions of his own dollars toward a new, smaller facility somewhere in town.

The mayor said a process is now underway to figure out what to do with the arena as well as the city's other entertainment facilities.


"That's going to take a few years," Eisenberger said. "Getting into an arena issue with the costs that are associated with that is going to be a complex issue and it's going to take some time for us to sort out what's the best path to go forward here."

On Thursday, he said his answer was a best guess based on past examples and it might just take a couple years. Perhaps less. But considering some issues — he cited Pier 7 and 8 — have taken 20 years to resolve, it won't happen instantly.

"That's not something that happens in a couple of months," Eisenberger said.

Andlauer says he wasn't surprised at this because the city doesn't make quick changes. As a result, he knows it can't happen overnight. And he says he wants to be fair and give the city enough room to deal with the issue properly. But a few years, he says, will probably become more than a few years.

"By that time, they'll have spent millions of dollars just to keep the roof on," Andlauer says. "They're going to waste taxpayers' money in fixing the facility rather than going out there and getting something new."

....

"We can't wait five years," Andlauer said. "People are going to lose interest."

Ideally, he would like to be in a new facility within three years. Which means a crawling pace toward a decision isn't acceptable to him.


Read it in full here.

I am so sick of Skelly. Please leave. You know nothing about city-building. Look at Pittsburgh with their three sports venues downtown, and look at the vibrancy surrounding such. Meanwhile, check out suburban stadia (Pontiac Silverdome, etc)--razed.

Actually look no further than Toronto: hockey, football, soccer venues all downtown. Lots of fun being downtown on the days/nights when games are on.

This line is believe-it-when-I-see-it: "While Andlauer says the city would likely have to be part of the project — whether that's all cash or a combination of cash and land is unclear — he's prepared to pay a significant portion of the cost out of his own pocket." (emphasis mine).

So Mr. Andlauer, write a cheque for $50M and let's get going. :rolleyes: