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-   -   Cities with the most Art Deco buildings (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=240839)

muppet Oct 31, 2019 9:03 AM

An article on Shanghai as the world's largest collection of art deco:

https://www.mandarinoriental.com/mo-...-tour-shanghai

"But the faded glamour of Shanghai in the 1930s – when it was the world’s fifth largest city and Asia’s most vibrant modern metropolis – is best embodied in the buildings found on the other side of the river, that were designed in one particular style: Art Deco. Several thousand examples are believed to still stand – making Shanghai the city with the highest number of Art Deco buildings in the world."

CaliNative Oct 31, 2019 9:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chisouthside (Post 8733492)
Los Angeles has many as well, just not necessarily in the form of highrises or skyscrapers.

Eastern Columbia building is once of the best still around. The old Richfield Tower was a nice art deco, but unfortunately was torn down in 1968-69 to make way for the 52 story ARCO twins.

mrnyc Oct 31, 2019 2:32 PM

singapore has pretty cool 1920's deco examples too -- tiang bahru neighborhood, koon seng road, etc.

tiong bahru
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiong_Bahru_Estate
http://www.ladyironchef.com/2013/03/...hru-singapore/
http://www.tiongbahruplaza.com.sg/tiong-bahru-plaza/
http://www.vogue.com/slideshow/10806...neighborhoods/

https://gretastravels.com/koon-seng-road-singapore/

badrunner Oct 31, 2019 5:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by muppet (Post 8734621)
Actually its precisely that which makes those cities claim the most art deco buildings in the world, not just their grand hotels, apartment complexes and offices. Bear in mind a large chunk of the central city was built in that era, before the wartime moratorium:

Shanghai for example built thousands of shikumen housing in art deco style - check the link:

https://www.google.com/search?client...4dUDCAY&uact=5

Maybe there's more than is commonly thought, but then again, if you're counting individual residences with art deco elements as art deco buildings, and you're still only at a few thousand samples, that's not gonna cut it for #2 in the world ;).

Many American SFHs from that time period could be counted as well. Even if they weren't explicitly built as art deco residences, they integrated many of the decorative elements and motifs into their designs. Something like a 1930s Spanish colonial with vintage art deco lighting fixtures and leaded glass - very common around here.

Here's my ranking, considering both quality and quantity:

NYC
LA
Chicago
Detroit
Miami

If we include the rest the world, the ranking does not change.

edale Oct 31, 2019 5:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by badrunner (Post 8735057)
Maybe there's more than is commonly thought, but then again, if you're counting individual residences with art deco elements as art deco buildings, and you're still only at a few thousand samples, that's not gonna cut it for #2 in the world ;).

Many American SFHs from that time period could be counted as well. Even if they weren't explicitly built as art deco residences, they integrated many of the decorative elements and motifs into their designs. Something like a 1930s Spanish colonial with vintage art deco lighting fixtures and leaded glass - very common around here.

Here's my ranking, considering both quality and quantity:

NYC
LA
Chicago
Detroit
Miami

If we include the rest the world, the ranking does not change.

Have you researched this topic? Your list looks awfully American-centric, and doesn't seem to be rooted in any data, as far as I can tell. Just a hunch or what?

JManc Oct 31, 2019 5:35 PM

How big is the French Concession in Shanghai? It's seems like a pretty limited area behind the Bund unless there are more Art Deco in other parts of town.

badrunner Oct 31, 2019 5:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edale (Post 8735065)
Have you researched this topic? Your list looks awfully American-centric, and doesn't seem to be rooted in any data, as far as I can tell. Just a hunch or what?

That's a bit like asking why your list of cities with the best Craftsman style architecture is American centric...

The list is American centric because art deco is largely American centric. It was popular around the world, but no other country has embraced the style to the extant that America has. Nobody has done more with the style. You ever wonder why there are no great art deco towers in the birthplace of art deco?

I would easily put Detroit's best against the best of Shanghai and Mumbai.

edale Oct 31, 2019 6:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by badrunner (Post 8735097)
That's a bit like asking why your list of cities with the best Craftsman style architecture is American centric...

The list is American centric because art deco is largely American centric. It was popular around the world, but no other country has embraced the style to the extant that America has. Nobody has done more with the style. You ever wonder why there are no great art deco towers in the birthplace of art deco?

I would easily put Detroit's best against the best of Shanghai and Mumbai.

Rio, to pick one example, has a huge collection of Art Deco, including towers. It is a global style, with representation in China, Australia, New Zealand, Mexico...all over. Now, best and biggest collections are also different conversations, which I mentioned in an earlier post. Skyscrapers and big train stations, government buildings, civic institutions, etc. make a big impression when it comes to these things, and I think they should be weighed more heavily than simple commercial structures that contain trace elements of art deco styling. In this sense, American cities probably do rise to the top. Surely the most iconic deco structures are buildings like the Chrystler, Empire State, etc. I've enjoyed reading about the prevalence of the style in Mumbai and Shanghai, though.

badrunner Oct 31, 2019 6:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaliNative (Post 8734626)
Eastern Columbia building is once of the best still around. The old Richfield Tower was a nice art deco, but unfortunately was torn down in 1968-69 to make way for the 52 story ARCO twins.

This streetview that sopas ej posted was vaguely reminiscent of the richfield tower. Black Gold:

Quote:

Originally Posted by sopas ej (Post 8733792)
I'm old enough to remember when this was a Crocker Bank:
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0690...7i16384!8i8192

Some old timers tell me that if the Richfield tower still stood today it would be the most beautiful building in the city. Another underrated gem is the county USC medical center: https://goo.gl/maps/4oMX9b78y8AbTxxN6 Gotta love that postwar Berlin brutalist aesthetic. This might actually be the largest art deco building in the country. I think it just edges out Buffalo city hall.

niwell Oct 31, 2019 6:26 PM

Having the most impressive art deco towers doesn't necessarily mean the most art deco buildings. I'd agree with NYC at number 1 and Miami being in the mix, but other than that it's up in the air.

Lots of colonial countries embraced the style just as much as the US just tended not to build massive towers, though there are iconic train stations and the like. Not experiencing the effects of Depression to the same degree certainly helped with proliferation of the style. For instance I'd put money on Johannesburg having more deco structures than Detroit, even though latter may have more iconic deco buildings (the gap isn't as large as one may assume though). Certain streets are lined with the style, but many of the buildings are in rough shape. Colonial interpretations of deco do tend to be more subdued than the US, which again may not be surprising.

Canada's actually a bit of an outlier compared to other commonwealth nations in that deco isn't nearly as prevalent. Toronto does have a number of interesting late deco structures that were delayed by the depression / WWII and ended up being built with modernist influences, but that's an aside.

Steely Dan Oct 31, 2019 6:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by badrunner (Post 8735153)
This might actually be the largest art deco building in the country. I think it just edges out Buffalo city hall.

no. that title easily belongs to chicago's merchandise mart, with its 4M SF of floor space (over 7x larger than buffalo city hall).

it was the largest building in the world when it was built and it still ranks somewhat high on that list nearly century later.

it's a true beast of a building.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ndise_Mart.jpg
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchandise_Mart

iheartthed Oct 31, 2019 6:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by niwell (Post 8735189)
Having the most impressive art deco towers doesn't necessarily mean the most art deco buildings. I'd agree with NYC at number 1 and Miami being in the mix, but other than that it's up in the air.

Lots of colonial countries embraced the style just as much as the US just tended not to build massive towers, though there are iconic train stations and the like. Not experiencing the effects of Depression to the same degree certainly helped with proliferation of the style. For instance I'd put money on Johannesburg having more deco structures than Detroit, even though latter may have more iconic deco buildings (the gap isn't as large as one may assume though). Certain streets are lined with the style, but many of the buildings are in rough shape. Colonial interpretations of deco do tend to be more subdued than the US, which again may not be surprising.

Canada's actually a bit of an outlier compared to other commonwealth nations in that deco isn't nearly as prevalent. Toronto does have a number of interesting late deco structures that were delayed by the depression / WWII and ended up being built with modernist influences, but that's an aside.

I have never been to Johannesburg, but I'm skeptical that it has more art deco buildings than Detroit. Detroit was likely several times the size of Johannesburg in the 1920s and 1930s.

badrunner Oct 31, 2019 7:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steely Dan (Post 8735218)
no. that title easily belongs to chicago's merchandise mart, with its 4M SF of floor space.

it was the largest building in the world when it was built and it still ranks somewhat high on that list nearly century later.

it's a true beast of a building.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ndise_Mart.jpg
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchandise_Mart

Ah, how could I forget about THAT. I remember being blown away by the size of it when I first saw it. I find absolutely massive buildings like that more visually impressive than skinny tall skyscrapers.

LA21st Oct 31, 2019 7:12 PM

It has it's own el stop, lol.

Great building.

JManc Oct 31, 2019 7:17 PM

I was there about a month or so ago; they do a light show at night and photos just don't capture just how ridiculously massive that thing is. You almost forget it's a 25 story building.

suburbanite Oct 31, 2019 7:22 PM

I can't imagine what it's like walking around the office space inside that thing. I've been in a few prewar towers with floorplates that are miniscule in comparison. Even in those where you're never more than 50 feet from a window they can feel suffocating with how much less columnless space and natural light they were able to build in back then.

niwell Oct 31, 2019 7:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iheartthed (Post 8735222)
I have never been to Johannesburg, but I'm skeptical that it has more art deco buildings than Detroit. Detroit was likely several times the size of Johannesburg in the 1920s and 1930s.


Hard to find exact figures but Detroit was about twice as large in 1950, though the Johannesburg figures would deliberately exclude certain sections of the population.

However that doesn't really tell the full story as this time period coincided with massive amounts of growth in the city. Joburg (and surrounding art deco centres like Springs) also continued to grow at a feverish pace during the 1930s while Detroit was stagnating during the Depression. Similarly, building continued during WWII as the countries war effort was significantly less than the US or other allied powers. This era also coincided with a massive influx of capital from gold mining and the deliberate reconstruction of huge portions of the inner-city in the deco style (New York of Africa and such). Keep in mind that a significant majority of the world's gold was coming from the region at the time. Deco also remained quite popular in South Africa well into the 1950s while the US was shifting away from it to more modern styles. Durban also has a huge amount though it was small enough at the time I'd put Detroit ahead of it.

I'd also expect Miami's story to share at least a few similarities - it wasn't exactly a major centre during the deco period. Also worth noting that period architecture in Detroit seemed more varied to me the times I've been there.

niwell Oct 31, 2019 7:36 PM

Pictures don't do it justice - the Merchandise Mart is incredibly imposing in person. As suburbanite noted I can't imagine it's too pleasant in the deep interior - you could get lost in there.

iheartthed Oct 31, 2019 7:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by niwell (Post 8735299)
Hard to find exact figures but Detroit was about twice as large in 1950, though the Johannesburg figures would deliberately exclude certain sections of the population.

However that doesn't really tell the full story as this time period coincided with massive amounts of growth in the city. Joburg (and surrounding art deco centres like Springs) also continued to grow at a feverish pace during the 1930s while Detroit was stagnating during the Depression. Similarly, building continued during WWII as the countries war effort was significantly less than the US or other allied powers. This era also coincided with a massive influx of capital from gold mining and the deliberate reconstruction of huge portions of the inner-city in the deco style (New York of Africa and such). Keep in mind that a significant majority of the world's gold was coming from the region at the time. Deco also remained quite popular in South Africa well into the 1950s while the US was shifting away from it to more modern styles. Durban also has a huge amount though it was small enough at the time I'd put Detroit ahead of it.

I'd also expect Miami's story to share at least a few similarities - it wasn't exactly a major centre during the deco period. Also worth noting that period architecture in Detroit seemed more varied to me the times I've been there.

I don't think there has been a full accounting of Detroit's art deco architecture, but it still just seems really unlikely. Detroit was one of the largest urban areas in the world in 1950, larger than both Mumbai and Rio de Janeiro at the time, which are both cited as having large collections. And art deco was very thoroughly embedded in the city's architecture, even well away from downtown Detroit (for instance: https://goo.gl/maps/kmJkom5j5YUix4Ce8). Granted, a lot has been lost but a lot still exists. So many of Detroit's public school buildings, particularly the high schools, are/were art deco for starters.

niwell Oct 31, 2019 8:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iheartthed (Post 8735330)
I don't think there has been a full accounting of Detroit's art deco architecture, but it still just seems really unlikely. Detroit was one of the largest urban areas in the world in 1950, larger than both Mumbai and Rio de Janeiro at the time, which are both cited as having large collections. And art deco was very thoroughly embedded in the city's architecture, even well away from downtown Detroit (for instance: https://goo.gl/maps/kmJkom5j5YUix4Ce8). Granted, a lot has been lost but a lot still exists. So many of Detroit's public school buildings, particularly the high schools, are/were art deco for starters.



That's a perfect example of what I'm talking about actually - that's a gorgeous grand building of which Detroit has many. You would be hard pressed to find that outside of the CBD in any South African city. But stuff like this is dime a dozen in pretty much any suburb built before the mid 1950s:

https://goo.gl/maps/g59cGrmAdJmMu9pz8
https://goo.gl/maps/huuEDFFtUP8U8aJ3A
https://goo.gl/maps/1CXKNKDC5drpVqnv6
https://goo.gl/maps/4GvRdJ45qKNgHLvR8



As I said, much more subdued and with British colonial influence, but very clearly deco. Here's an article that claims it as #3, though I would personally doubt that: https://www.csmonitor.com/2000/1023/p7s1.html

It may also be useful to separate American art deco from what was occurring elsewhere in the world.

JManc Oct 31, 2019 8:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by niwell (Post 8735301)
Pictures don't do it justice - the Merchandise Mart is incredibly imposing in person. As suburbanite noted I can't imagine it's too pleasant in the deep interior - you could get lost in there.

Someone told be either Facebook or Google leased a ton of office space there since these big tech companies love wide open floor plates like this.

iheartthed Oct 31, 2019 8:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by niwell (Post 8735400)
That's a perfect example of what I'm talking about actually - that's a gorgeous grand building of which Detroit has many. You would be hard pressed to find that outside of the CBD in any South African city. But stuff like this is dime a dozen in pretty much any suburb built before the mid 1950s:

https://goo.gl/maps/g59cGrmAdJmMu9pz8
https://goo.gl/maps/huuEDFFtUP8U8aJ3A
https://goo.gl/maps/1CXKNKDC5drpVqnv6
https://goo.gl/maps/4GvRdJ45qKNgHLvR8



As I said, much more subdued and with British colonial influence, but very clearly deco. Here's an article that claims it as #3, though I would personally doubt that: https://www.csmonitor.com/2000/1023/p7s1.html

It may also be useful to separate American art deco from what was occurring elsewhere in the world.

Yeah, there's also stuff like this scattered throughout Detroit:

https://goo.gl/maps/nDhL19KxW71PMEAS6

MonkeyRonin Oct 31, 2019 8:56 PM

One important distinction seems to be that the US by-and-large used art deco in institutional & commercial applications, but not much in the way of residential (NY being the exception here - and even then it tended to build more in the Beaux Arts, Italianate, etc. styles, from what it seems). A place like Tel Aviv on the other hand is chock-a-block with streamline moderne stuff like this: https://goo.gl/maps/nWMwLsQvJWpMtyBp9

As a result I wouldn't be surprised to see some non-US cities with the highest numbers of art deco buildings, even if the best and most of the grand examples of the style are largely found in New York, Chicago, LA, and Detroit.

MonkeyRonin Oct 31, 2019 9:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iheartthed (Post 8735330)
I don't think there has been a full accounting of Detroit's art deco architecture, but it still just seems really unlikely. Detroit was one of the largest urban areas in the world in 1950, larger than both Mumbai and Rio de Janeiro at the time, which are both cited as having large collections. And art deco was very thoroughly embedded in the city's architecture, even well away from downtown Detroit (for instance: https://goo.gl/maps/kmJkom5j5YUix4Ce8). Granted, a lot has been lost but a lot still exists. So many of Detroit's public school buildings, particularly the high schools, are/were art deco for starters.


To echo what some others have already said, the size of a city in 1930-50 or so is not a proxy for its art deco stock. It's a question of when it was growing and of cultural preferences more than anything, as well as wealth to an extent. That's a why a then-small city like Miami likely has more buildings of the style than Boston or Philly. Or why international cities like Shanghai, Rio, and Johannesburg have more than big European cities like London or Paris.

That said, Detroit certainly is/was one of the world's great repositories of art deco regardless.

austlar1 Oct 31, 2019 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bossabreezes (Post 8733951)
Rio de Janeiro- this barely scratches the surface.

Centro-Cinelandia https://goo.gl/maps/hYUfndCkxXwduhva9
Centro-Praça Mauá https://goo.gl/maps/XNssMWCdAvssxtQz5
Centro- Central do Brasil https://goo.gl/maps/2bDcjKsdMTWuXemH7
Flamengo I- https://goo.gl/maps/uAEqud48rH58tmXB6
Flamengo II- https://goo.gl/maps/u3ZdfuGFMjG1o8mo8
Flamengo III- https://goo.gl/maps/ujkCFAb2opwwAqAW7
Copacabana- https://goo.gl/maps/zy3x9RehAAhcwU5p6

Most of these Rio examples are really more Art Moderne rather than Deco. The main difference is that Art Moderne buildings generally have less ornamentation and the emphasis tends to be on the horizontal line as opposed to the vertical.

muppet Nov 1, 2019 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by badrunner (Post 8735057)
Maybe there's more than is commonly thought, but then again, if you're counting individual residences with art deco elements as art deco buildings, and you're still only at a few thousand samples, that's not gonna cut it for #2 in the world ;).

Many American SFHs from that time period could be counted as well. Even if they weren't explicitly built as art deco residences, they integrated many of the decorative elements and motifs into their designs. Something like a 1930s Spanish colonial with vintage art deco lighting fixtures and leaded glass - very common around here.

Here's my ranking, considering both quality and quantity:

NYC
LA
Chicago
Detroit
Miami

If we include the rest the world, the ranking does not change.

You know a fact doesn't become reality because you just decide it is. What are your sources?

muppet Nov 1, 2019 1:06 AM

More Shanghai art deco:

http://i.cdn.travel.cnn.com/sites/de...?itok=WcJe84o6 https://media.tacdn.com/media/attrac...6/e7/0d/c7.jpg
http://i.cdn.travel.cnn.com
https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/me...pole-hotel.jpg https://i.pinimg.com/originals/4a/bb...c53b4b17e8.jpg
http://i.cdn.travel.cnn.com
https://ssl.c.photoshelter.com/img-g...shanghai-2.jpg http://www.chinatravelpage.com/wp-co...l-Shanghai.jpg
www.chinatravelpage.com
https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8301/...2ca6cac48f.jpg https://sf.mariefranceasia.com/wp-co...ss-release.jpg
https://sf.mariefranceasia.com
http://ameykphotography.com/wp-conte...dark-night.jpg
http://ameykphotography.com

http://www.jingdaily.com/wp-content/...um-380x362.jpg https://kohler.design/wp-content/upl...39_720x450.jpg
www.jingdaily.com
x
http://user-images.strikinglycdn.com...urs_ysgtee.jpg


https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/me...e-boutique.jpg http://i.cdn.travel.cnn.com/sites/de...?itok=2Yv6B5SK
http://i.cdn.travel.cnn.com
https://admin.freetour.com/images/to...i-1930s-01.jpg
https://admin.freetour.com
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/34/c7...199aeebca9.jpg https://i.pinimg.com/originals/00/f6...352eb8ba8c.jpg

https://img.theculturetrip.com/768x4...hay-cinema.jpgx
https://img.theculturetrip.com
https://live.staticflickr.com/8428/2...afc97ab1_c.jpg http://www.topsdining.com/files/images/bud/9.jpg
www.topsdining.com
http://www.lacasapark.com/la/wp-cont...0-1024x768.jpg
www.lacasapark.com

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b4/bb...1b333d4ff9.jpg https://archive.shine.cn/newsimage//..._515961_01.gif

https://lp-cms-production.imgix.net/...co_CS.jpg?q=25

http://i.cdn.travel.cnn.com/sites/de...?itok=U6N8Cxye https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b6/7c...fa6b16981b.jpg

http://shanghailander.net/wp-content...n-art-deco.jpg https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...zgSeI97aIFAp&s
http://shanghailander.net
https://davidchipperfield.com/img/NF..._081120_n3.jpg
https://davidchipperfield.com

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/f4zbw1zEy3w/maxresdefault.jpg

http://313ct818yszd3xd6xa2z47nm-wpen...5/art-deco.jpg https://static01.nyt.com/images/2011...tion-popup.jpg

https://ih0.redbubble.net/image.6238...1000,075,f.jpg

DFW Nov 1, 2019 4:52 AM

Though Miami may boast the largest collection of art deco architecture in the world, Dallas Fair Park has the largest collection of art deco exhibition buildings,art, and sculpture in the U.S. It is one of the finest examples of excellent city planning and beautification of a public space to be found anywhere in the world.
https://www.google.com/search?q=dall...&bih=691&dpr=3

austlar1 Nov 1, 2019 5:07 AM

Here's a few from Little Old Fort Worth:

https://www.google.com/maps/@32.7467...4!8i8192?hl=en

https://ourfw.com/listing-item/tp_passenger_station/

https://www.google.com/maps/@32.7468...4!8i8192?hl=en

https://www.google.com/maps/@32.7502...4!8i8192?hl=en

https://www.google.com/maps/@32.7539...4!8i8192?hl=en

https://www.google.com/maps/@32.7538...4!8i8192?hl=en

https://www.google.com/maps/@32.7537...4!8i8192?hl=en

https://www.google.com/maps/@32.7551...4!8i8192?hl=en

https://www.google.com/maps/@32.7510...4!8i8192?hl=en

https://www.google.com/maps/@32.7467...4!8i8192?hl=en

https://homepages.bluffton.edu/~sull...s/hedrick.html

https://www.google.com/maps/@32.7468...4!8i8192?hl=en

https://www.google.com/maps/@32.7457...4!8i8192?hl=en

giallo Nov 1, 2019 5:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by muppet (Post 8735685)
You know a fact doesn't become reality because you just decide it is. What are your sources?

Yeah. I didn't want to wade in to this conversation due to not having any concrete numbers, but Shanghai was an absolute boom town of over 3 million people in the 1920s/30s, and A LOT of art deco was built. The French Concession, a massive area in central Shanghai that I live in for seven years, is littered with art deco everywhere. I was constantly discovering new gems in alleys or down side streets.

To write off Shanghai as a major art deco center just because it wasn't in the US is foolish.

austlar1 Nov 1, 2019 5:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by giallo (Post 8735870)
Yeah. I didn't want to wade in to this conversation due to not having any concrete numbers, but Shanghai was an absolute boom town of over 3 million people in the 1920s/30s, and A LOT of art deco was built. The French Concession, a massive area in central Shanghai that I live in for seven years, is littered with art deco everywhere. I was constantly discovering new gems in alleys or down side streets.

To write off Shanghai as a major art deco center just because it wasn't in the US is foolish.

The Shanghai pic posted by Muppet are incredible!

CaliNative Nov 1, 2019 6:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JManc (Post 8735259)
I was there about a month or so ago; they do a light show at night and photos just don't capture just how ridiculously massive that thing is. You almost forget it's a 25 story building.

I do recall reading that the Merchandise Mart was once owned by papa Joe Kennedy. Is that correct? Is the building still doing well, with a high occupancy rate? What is inside--sellers of merchandise I guess? Clothing or other stuff? Grains? Retail stores open to the public? Is it just used for storage?

Danie Nov 1, 2019 6:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by niwell (Post 8735400)
That's a perfect example of what I'm talking about actually - that's a gorgeous grand building of which Detroit has many. You would be hard pressed to find that outside of the CBD in any South African city. But stuff like this is dime a dozen in pretty much any suburb built before the mid 1950s:

https://goo.gl/maps/g59cGrmAdJmMu9pz8
https://goo.gl/maps/huuEDFFtUP8U8aJ3A
https://goo.gl/maps/1CXKNKDC5drpVqnv6
https://goo.gl/maps/4GvRdJ45qKNgHLvR8



As I said, much more subdued and with British colonial influence, but very clearly deco. Here's an article that claims it as #3, though I would personally doubt that: https://www.csmonitor.com/2000/1023/p7s1.html

It may also be useful to separate American art deco from what was occurring elsewhere in the world.

I know ,but there is a Art Deco monument in Pretoria which is 62 m tall
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...r_Monument.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voortrekker_Monument

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C...67.NhsL7GqEIag
https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8669/...395c0742_b.jpg
https://www.skyscrapercity.com/showt...hp?p=130044976

badrunner Nov 1, 2019 7:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by muppet (Post 8735685)
You know a fact doesn't become reality because you just decide it is. What are your sources?

Hard to come up with concrete numbers. Only the Mumbais and Shanghais of the world are going around counting every single (questionably) art deco building in the city for tourism bragging rights. Ain't nobody got time for that out here. That would be a completely pointless exercise in a place like LA as they are so commonplace and spread out all over instead of being neatly confined to a colonial section of the center city like in Shanghai.

But we could use some logic and common sense to come up with some estimates. LA MSA went from 1m to 3m from 1920 to 1940 and up to 4.3m by 1950. I would conservatively estimate about 1 million prewar buildings in total, with the majority built in the early art deco era. If just 1% of them are art deco, you could do the math. And unlike in Shanghai or Mumbai, that's a completely realistic and conservative estimate because we're not talking about some niche colonial buildings here, in America art deco is commonplace and completely at home in its natural environment.

People don't appreciate just how much art deco is a part of the American visual vernacular. You see it in big cities and you see it in small towns in the middle of nowhere. Art deco is quintessential classic Americana. Think Route 66 and Radiator Springs.

Besides raw numbers there is also the qualitative argument. Dare I say that of all the examples of art deco posted in this thread, the American specimens consistently feature more inspired and distinctive designs? While the "colonial" versions tend to be either a bit more subdued and derivative, or overly loud? Is that too biased? or is it accurate? or completely subjective? imo it's really not that complicated and it's really not that subjective.

State of the art opulence and luxury in 1930 America:
This ain't no Mumbai or Rio, my friend.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-shO08YvBq...01454712-1.jpg

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-CQz6H7CmP...01387230-7.jpg
https://losangelestheatres.blogspot....ium-views.html

muppet Nov 1, 2019 8:15 AM

OK sounds alot like you're repeatedly changing the goalposts in order to make the US on top each time, acc to you. At first there's only one particular type that is art deco, then taking in anything from that period (which btw would then count hundreds of thousands of Shanghai's shikumen housing and longtang lanes)

So now we're talking about the quality and je ne sais quoi of the style? And in your opinion all other art deco comes wanting by dint of it not being in America (and thus too understated or too overstated)? Is it that non Europeans can't build to that finesse or something? This may be news but the quality of design and craftsmanship is just the same as any art deco round the world, plus the variety.

The varying states of the movement, from sumptuous to spare, the Belle Epoque period of a city:

https://historycouncilnsw.org.au/wp-...ad-700x400.jpg
https://historycouncilnsw.org.au

https://static.gbtimes.com/uploads/o...zz_cropped.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/665/22...ac4900f4_b.jpg

http://www.a-hotel-with-a-story.com/...nghai1920s.jpg https://chinesemartialstudies.files....ghai-1920s.jpg
www.a-hotel-with-a-story.com https://chinesemartialstudies.files.wordpress.com

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bym8CzWIgAAfzeY.jpg https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/5XoAA...JvT/s-l300.jpg https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/a4sAA...Jve/s-l300.jpg
https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com

https://peterhack.com.au/wp-content/...otel%20(1).jpg
https://peterhack.com.au
https://worldhistory.us/wp-content/u...-the-1930s.jpg https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/me...hedun-film.jpg
https://worldhistory.us
https://cdn.fodors.com/ee/files/slid...l-Shanghai.jpg http://www.splendidhabitat.com/wp-co...l-Art-Deco.jpg
https://cdn.fodors.com


https://tatarartprojects.com/wp-cont..._lobby_003.jpg
https://tatarartprojects.com
http://www.decopix.com/wp-content/up...son-1-of-2.jpg https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...3b75ae6c_z.jpg
www.decopix.com
https://cdn.i-scmp.com/sites/default...e&v=1552542767

https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/6b...95318d4cef4bef

https://i.f1g.fr/media/eidos/768x/20...02-805x453.jpg https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qim...d61565270.webp

https://thecoolhunter.net/wp-content.../atlasbar1.jpg
https://thecoolhunter.net
https://www.hsbc.com/-/files/hsbc/wh...E44AFB1D13FE9F https://d1x3cbuht6sy0f.cloudfront.ne...9b568e7c3b.jpg
www.hsbc.com


https://farm1.static.flickr.com/849/...5e5294d0_b.jpg https://sketchingdaily.files.wordpre...pg?w=429&h=496 https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...8Xskww3aIdKw&s


http://images.china.cn/attachement/j...10b81ef84a.jpg https://admin.freetour.com/images/to...hanghai-01.jpg

craigs Nov 1, 2019 8:18 AM

Art Deco in San Francisco

Russ Bldg. (office)
http://opensfhistory.org/Image/700/wnp100.20042.jpg
source

https://live.staticflickr.com/2750/4...3280287f_b.jpg
source

Shell Bldg. (office)
https://i1.wp.com/visiter-sanfrancis...pg?w=768&ssl=1
source

https://live.staticflickr.com/8343/8...6a9ac489_b.jpg


Coit Tower (monument)
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/23...g?v=1505370626
source

The San Francisco Mint
https://live.staticflickr.com/7320/1...b6e47b2f_b.jpg
source

US Appraisers Office/ICE
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dz3A8UqXcAEKpEo.jpg
source

San Francisco Chronicle offices and plant
https://s.hdnux.com/photos/16/55/21/...11/920x920.jpg
source

Neighborhood-scale commercial
https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/Vw43...lencia_1.0.jpg
source

Bridge (duh)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Bridge-001.jpg
source

The infamous 450 Suffer (Sutter)
https://450sutter.buildingengines.co...383_bldg-4.JPG
source

140 New Montgomery (originally Pacific Telephone & Telegraph offices)
https://wilsonmeany.com/wp-content/u...Montgomery.jpg
source

https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca88...oifSuaBzt9MQq4

Twitter HQ
https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/BiZm...ang_5363.0.jpg
source

1101 Green St./Bellaire Tower (residential)
https://si.wsj.net/public/resources/...1113163907.jpg
source

https://live.staticflickr.com/3593/4...f77a50e3_b.jpg
source

McAllister Tower (residential)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ege_of_Law.jpg
source

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/uo8AA...P~/s-l1600.jpg
source

JManc Nov 1, 2019 8:39 AM

That Shell building in SF...

dc_denizen Nov 1, 2019 10:26 AM

Anyone want to post some grand concourse pics?

Nobody should forget the Bronx as a center or Art Deco (it was developed in the interwar period)

dc_denizen Nov 1, 2019 10:29 AM

Muppets probably going to argue that London (population 75 million) has more art deco skyscrapers than New York.

saybanana Nov 1, 2019 10:48 AM

My favorite streamline moderne in Los Angeles
https://goo.gl/maps/i9ufG4NXg3zJSWJN8

streetscaper Nov 1, 2019 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_denizen (Post 8735924)
Muppets probably going to argue that London (population 75 million) has more art deco skyscrapers than New York.

lol yup!

Danie Nov 1, 2019 2:04 PM

Detroit Art Deco buildings

The Guardian Building
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...anbuilding.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardian_Building
Penobscot Building
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...sunsetting.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penobscot_Building
David Stott Building
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ttBuilding.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Stott_Building
The Kean
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Detroit_MI.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Kean

sopas ej Nov 1, 2019 2:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saybanana (Post 8735938)
My favorite streamline moderne in Los Angeles
https://goo.gl/maps/i9ufG4NXg3zJSWJN8

Yes, I love that building too.

I love the high schools that were also done in Streamline Moderne in the LA area. As unfortunate as the 1933 Long Beach Earthquake was, that was the motivation to build new seismically safer high school buildings, and that being the WPA period, many of them were built in a Streamline Moderne style. I remember going to different high school auditoriums that were fantastically in that style, that even had Art Deco exit signs.

Speaking of LA public buildings done in Art Deco, there's also the LA County General Hospital, and Van Nuys City Hall...


I've only skimmed through this thread, but people have mentioned that Art Deco really took off in exuberance in the US. Well, during the period that Art Deco was popular in the US, Europe was already embracing that early Modernism/International Style architecture, which I also like. Unfortunately, though, that style evolved into those awful boring 1960s glass boxes and 1970s tinted glass boxes. But the early Modern stuff is cool, like that Bauhaus architecture.

niwell Nov 1, 2019 3:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin (Post 8735425)
One important distinction seems to be that the US by-and-large used art deco in institutional & commercial applications, but not much in the way of residential (NY being the exception here - and even then it tended to build more in the Beaux Arts, Italianate, etc. styles, from what it seems). A place like Tel Aviv on the other hand is chock-a-block with streamline moderne stuff like this: https://goo.gl/maps/nWMwLsQvJWpMtyBp9

As a result I wouldn't be surprised to see some non-US cities with the highest numbers of art deco buildings, even if the best and most of the grand examples of the style are largely found in New York, Chicago, LA, and Detroit.


Yeah it's rare to find anything like that Tel Aviv example in the US, really. NYC has a similar density of deco architecture in areas but a very different vibe.

It reminds me a little bit of Yeoville and surroundings in Joburg, which in parts is wall to wall deco/moderne. ranging from large apartment blocks to small several unit structures. It's a pretty dodgy area right now but if I had money to burn I'd definitely invest for the long run (I know people doing it now) - some really beautiful residential stock that's slowly being renovated.

https://goo.gl/maps/opcW4SYGcB4W9SrZA
https://goo.gl/maps/fdBrmeG18mmAsGHN7
https://goo.gl/maps/sCjrqRdrATJ63LDC6
https://goo.gl/maps/aCgbiuMDBfpWM2xx6
https://goo.gl/maps/xQ8PR3XzY1vavrt59
https://goo.gl/maps/heScTipDHg9Chx5e9


Downtown of course it's pretty much wall to wall in areas, with a couple standouts. Lacking some of the monumental feel of American cities, of course:

https://goo.gl/maps/TcDt9SCG9q1AMHz67
https://goo.gl/maps/LUGso1p8WwFjK6be8
https://goo.gl/maps/DDkVrhDcuAm6SF37A
https://goo.gl/maps/GixsXz2sxHN4LjABA

I have no intention of turning this into a city vs city and we can probably all agree that the US took deco to another level. But, I think that some people are underestimating how much deco/moderne was a global style and not just American. I'm just very familiar with Johannesburg and know very little about Shanghai, Rio, Mumbai, etc. They were almost literally building in one style for 2 decades during a massive gold fueled boom. American cities tended to have a lot more variation in architectural style even during popular movements, which isn't a bad thing.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Danie (Post 8735891)
I know ,but there is a Art Deco monument in Pretoria which is 62 m tall

The Voortrekker monument looks great! And is surprisingly well maintained.

mrnyc Nov 1, 2019 5:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by muppet (Post 8735905)
OK sounds alot like you're repeatedly changing the goalposts in order to make the US on top each time, acc to you. At first there's only one particular type that is art deco, then taking in anything from that period (which btw would then count hundreds of thousands of Shanghai's shikumen housing and longtang lanes)

So now we're talking about the quality and je ne sais quoi of the style? And in your opinion all other art deco comes wanting by dint of it not being in America (and thus too understated or too overstated)? Is it that non Europeans can't build to that finesse or something? This may be news but the quality of design and craftsmanship is just the same as any art deco round the world, plus the variety.

The varying states of the movement, from sumptuous to spare, the Belle Epoque period of a city:


derp! just so you are not going to take one commenter as all of the usa, right? a reminder i guess. :cheers:

there is no question vast usa as a whole has the most art deco scattered around. not even worth discussing.

however, city by city is another story though for sure and you have certainly proved that point.

and i cannot even imagine peak deco era and then what was lost everywhere over the years. :(

anyway, great pics -- that was a cool shanghai surprize. ha. :tup:

http://static1.1.sqspcdn.com/static/...475PfWu0EBo%3D

badrunner Nov 1, 2019 8:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saybanana (Post 8735938)
My favorite streamline moderne in Los Angeles
https://goo.gl/maps/i9ufG4NXg3zJSWJN8

Hey that reminds me, LA is also home to a very unique art deco treasure, the RMS Queen Mary, a 1936 transatlantic ocean liner, the last surviving one of its kind, with a very British take on an art deco interior.

https://goo.gl/maps/iD2z8KKY4oyHR5p68

Centropolis Nov 1, 2019 9:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by niwell (Post 8736185)
Yeah it's rare to find anything like that Tel Aviv example in the US, really. NYC has a similar density of deco architecture in areas but a very different vibe.

It reminds me a little bit of Yeoville and surroundings in Joburg, which in parts is wall to wall deco/moderne. ranging from large apartment blocks to small several unit structures. It's a pretty dodgy area right now but if I had money to burn I'd definitely invest for the long run (I know people doing it now) - some really beautiful residential stock that's slowly being renovated.

https://goo.gl/maps/opcW4SYGcB4W9SrZA
https://goo.gl/maps/fdBrmeG18mmAsGHN7
https://goo.gl/maps/sCjrqRdrATJ63LDC6
https://goo.gl/maps/aCgbiuMDBfpWM2xx6
https://goo.gl/maps/xQ8PR3XzY1vavrt59
https://goo.gl/maps/heScTipDHg9Chx5e9


Downtown of course it's pretty much wall to wall in areas, with a couple standouts. Lacking some of the monumental feel of American cities, of course:

https://goo.gl/maps/TcDt9SCG9q1AMHz67
https://goo.gl/maps/LUGso1p8WwFjK6be8
https://goo.gl/maps/DDkVrhDcuAm6SF37A
https://goo.gl/maps/GixsXz2sxHN4LjABA

I have no intention of turning this into a city vs city and we can probably all agree that the US took deco to another level. But, I think that some people are underestimating how much deco/moderne was a global style and not just American. I'm just very familiar with Johannesburg and know very little about Shanghai, Rio, Mumbai, etc. They were almost literally building in one style for 2 decades during a massive gold fueled boom. American cities tended to have a lot more variation in architectural style even during popular movements, which isn't a bad thing.
The Voortrekker monument looks great! And is surprisingly well maintained.


this is wild...like some kind of alternative universe LA.

niwell Nov 1, 2019 9:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Centropolis (Post 8736559)
this is wild...like some kind of alternative universe LA.

Yes!!! I’ve rarely waded into the “LA looks like” threads, particularly as I’m not too familiar with the city. But from what I have seen joburg fits the bill better than a lot do. Bizarre but does make some sense given their trajectories.

Razor Nov 1, 2019 9:54 PM

No relevant really, but I just wanted to say that It just wouldn't be as epic if King Kong climbed a green glass tower with a screaming damsel, or if Godzilla wreaked havoc among similar blue and bronze coloured glass buildings..I love those classic deco skylines of both NYC and Tokyo regardless on which city has more of that style.

MonkeyRonin Nov 1, 2019 11:36 PM

Here's a hypothesis: Art Deco was the first truly global architectural style.

Sure, there were Transatlantic movements before, and certain European countries had exported variants of their indigenous styles to their colonies; but Art Deco is the first that freely happened in tandem in nearly every corner of the world. Any truth to this?


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