The travel time wouldn't change much from Coquitlam Centre, actually the BNSF alignment would be a few minutes slower given the operating characteristics of the WCE between Port Moody and Mission. But (a big but, a few of them), first, that's only because there would presumably be stations added at Braid, Brentwood, and Commercial, connections that would integrate the WCE into the rapid transit network better than is possible with the current alignment. Second, a dedicated right-of-way would permit bi-directional service on a regular schedule, which isn't possible on rights-of-way that are shared with freight. And third, this route would reduce the total length of track used for the commuter/interurban/regional rail network, making an upgrade to electrification less expensive and reducing track maintenance costs.



Right. This is a choice between two basic patterns: the first option includes skytrain, essentially a metro, and the second includes a mix of higher speed regional rail and light rail. Both patterns can be associated with development patterns that tend to fit with them. Both have their place, but one is usually better than the other for a specific situation. The Broadway corridor clearly belongs in the metro camp, while a case could be made for either in Surrey.

Vancouver circa 1912 was built around a mix of regional rail and streetcar. Calgary appears to be going for a mix of regional rail and light rail. Amsterdam/Rotterdam/Den Haag/etc is an example of a larger city built in this pattern. Toronto, Montreal, Paris, and New York are more metro-cities.

I left that up to the reader on purpose - apparently Calgary has good transit ridership and their CBD is very centralized, making transit easy to plan.

There is also the aspect that Surrey will always be next to Vancouver, so you won't ever have a true "spoke" system - you'll always have to deal with the dual aspect created by the syphoning-off of commuters to Vancouver, which suggests that Fever's dual regional commuter rail and LRT networks would work best.

BTW - the integration of WCE at Braid and Commercial would be awseome. I don't think a connection at Brentwood is feasible given the distance - I think either Sperling or Rupert or Renfrew (probably too close to Commercial though) would work best as those stations are on top of or practically on top of the BNSF tracks. You'd also probably retain a transfer point at Coquitlam Centre.

Have you seen the rest of it, though? When I was there back in '01, it was nothing but urban sprawl as far as the eye could see, with (as you said) has a very small CBD.

Surrey is working hard to shed that 'low-class suburb' tag that it's borne for decades. Growing like Calgary really won't help that. If it really wants to be taken as seriously as Vancouver, then it's going to have to become a true urban/metro area.

I haven't been to Calgary in years - so I can't really comment on it.

That's pretty much what I said. I was just dispelling the idea that 10th didn't have any utilities.

If there is a WCE station at Commercial, we need a major overhaul of the area. There needs to be at least a second platform at Broadway station. It would be nice to have a WCE station there, but the area as it's designed for now cannot handle the amount of people commuting around.

I was thinking Willingdon would have a busway connecting Metrotown, BCIT, Brentwood, and Burnaby Heights with an extension to Capilano University, and a station at Willingdon would allow a transfer between the two lines while also serving Brentwood. Maybe Gilmore is a better spot. Maybe it's best to scratch the station altogether and have the regional line go a little faster.

The transfer at Coquitlam Centre is tricky (which means expensive) but necessary. Here's what I'm thinking: http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UT...e5c6081691486f

Don't touch my WCE!!!

And there to you put the bus loop and park and ride lot? If its in the original location, then there's a 400m walk from the furthest spot to the station (plus they have to walk across Lougheed highway). Also, a curve radius of <100m won't work for even MKII car, I don't think a railway car would be able to make that turn.

[edit]And you doesn't seems to consider the platform length. WCE would require about 150m of platform for its 8-car train. I measured the platform length, and 185m seems to be the standard for WCE.

These are good points. I edited the map drawing (I set it to open collaboration, feel free to add your own ideas) so that the turn takes up the entire site. The WCE platform is on the curve. This can result in gaps between the doors and platform. It's not ideal. The platform could be pushed further south, maybe. The turning radius is about 130 m.

The turning radius on Quebec/Terminal is 80-90 m, a little less than the turning radius for the Evergreen line at Coquitlam Centre as I've drawn it here at 100 m. It's right by a station so trains will go slow there anyway.

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UT...,0.019312&z=16

edit: the WCE platform could fit a little further east as shown here http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UT...,0.019312&z=16

All the platforms currently hold 7 car trains... two of the trains run in 9 car formats with 4 of the doors roped up. And keep in mind the track runs both freight and WCE trains so the platforms have to be low and away from the trains already. It's a commuter rail, not an urban metro.

Right. It's a pretty typical commuter rail line. I see increasing the level of service on this line and others as a way of connecting regional centres that are beyond the reach of our metro-like skytrain system. I see interurban/regional rail as a faster, cheaper alternative to skytrain, but it will need to have dedicated track for it to be a reasonable alternative to skytrain. While there are some places where extensive changes would be needed, like adding an elevated guideway and station at Coquitlam Centre, it would still work out to be much less expensive than building skytrain.

For the most part, I've chosen existing rights-of-way that are wide, flat, and straight. Most have freight traffic, especially between Braid and Maple Ridge but also between Willingdon and Braid, and these sections are generally wide enough for parallel tracks to be added. I don't think it would be possible to add dedicated track along Burrard inlet, and removing this 6-hour/day annoyance from our port facilities is probably a good enough reason in itself. The only loser is Port Moody, and it gets skytrain. There are many more winners.

The distance between stations isn't changing, except where the route changes. The trip time between Mission and Waterfront would be about the same as it is today, and it would be faster if it were electrified.

I put the whole system up http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UT...,0.019312&z=16

Those Google Maps freeze up my computer, so I can't view the maps. But got a glimpse before it froze.

Why the need for a curve at Coquitlam Centre? Why not just reverse the train? The train has to slow down and stop for the the station anyways, just place the station to the west of the track switch and change the direction of the switch when the train is in the station and reverse out and into Vancouver - they travel in reverse half the time as it is.

I think the West Coast Express will be hard pressed to find any more track time whether it's via the CP tracks or BNSF tracks, and unless Translink can justify building new rail over just leasing track time for $5 million (I'm guessing) or so a year. The Coquitlam-Marine Dr line was to use leased track time. I would rather WCE come up with a plan to introduce commuter rail to Abbotsford and to Ladner/South Surrey/White Rock before improving what already works quite well.

Regardless if they do secure track through Central Valley, I would prefer that they keep the 5 trains each way through Port Moody and run 30 minute service all day through Central Valley (so in the rush hour most stations except Port Moody and Mission would see 15 minute service, (I heard that any increase in train service frequency would not go all the way to Mission, but that would only make sense if they plan to build a 2nd storage and maintenace yard in Maple Ridge). Port Moody Staton is too well used to see it go away completely.

I'll try removing some information that isn't necessary.

I'm not sure what the regulations are around this issue. I think it depends on whether it's operated by line-of-sight or not. Since I'm suggesting speeds that should prohibit that, this is a really good point. I was thinking that the driver would have to get out and walk the length of the platform, like with the O-train.

I agree that interurban/regional lines south of the Fraser should have a higher priority than upgrading the existing WCE line, at least when it comes to Langley and South Surrey. The interurban/regional additions are coloured and labelled by phase in the map, but I haven't included commuter rail.

http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?hl=en&...35962&t=h&z=10

the link doesn't change but i'll post it again anyway

interesting

I've separated it into two maps now, one for the interurban and one for the light rail and skytrain. Let me know if you're still having problems (I'm having problems, too, with it caching, me deleting, then it restoring, or something like that)

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UT...,0.019312&z=16

Thanks - loads better - but I wouldn't use my crappy computer at the office as a guide.

Here's a nice Global Air Photo showing the interurban ROW through Surrey:

http://www.globalairphotos.com/image...yh2008_891.jpg

I just thought of something... the auto industry is asking for $25 billion dollars from the Federal Government. At the same time we're pushing to revive Interurban Lines that GM effectively murdered across the country around 50-60 years ago. I think $25 billion can revive a good chunk of rail lines across the country.