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-   -   Canadian Airport Thread II (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=256500)

q12 Feb 25, 2024 7:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fanofYOW (Post 10151709)
I do wonder however, how will YHZ be a "hub" for PD as they have announced with no E2's being based there?

I would say Porter has to be careful with expanding too quickly. Westjet including Encore tried competing with Air Canada in the East and look where that got them (nearly full retreat).

This summer Porter is ramping up to 12 E195 daily departures from YHZ (3x daily to YYZ/YUL/YOW/YYT).

In comparison Porter will have 15 E195 daily departures from YOW (daily 4xYYZ/3xYHZ/2xYVR/YEG/YYC/1xYWG/MCO).

Alexcaban Feb 25, 2024 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fanofYOW (Post 10151709)

I'm hoping it doesn't stop there though. Increased other carrier partnerships along with an alliance may be able to get BA to YOW and hopefully TS will consider European operations in the future as both PD and TS can feed each other in YOW. I personally am currently looking to completely phase out AC and WS for my travel needs. So far, it's working quite well with whatever PD is currently doing along with AF's surprisingly quick capacity increases that have been happening over the last 1/2 a year.


I don't see TS adding anything other then maybe LGW from YOW, anything else would just cannibalize their YUL operations.

Dominion301 Feb 26, 2024 2:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexcaban (Post 10151834)
I don't see TS adding anything other then maybe LGW from YOW, anything else would just cannibalize their YUL operations.

I wouldn't say cannibalize but compliment. Now that AF is daily A350 this summer, there's a lot of people around Ottawa now who won't need to go to Montreal to go overseas, but there's still massive leakage to YUL but a huge chunk of that is not going to TS. This could be an opportunity for TS to both grow a new market and gain current leakage market share to the likes of DUB, LGW, GLA, FCO. Hell with LGW they could capture Ottawa-London traffic year-round before AC eventually comes back on YOW-LHR with the XLR.

nname Feb 26, 2024 3:13 AM

The following airlines just received license to operate scheduled service between Canada and Europe. The last one will be interesting...
- KlasJet Lithuania
- Legend Airline Romania
- Norse Atlantic UK

thewave46 Feb 26, 2024 4:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by q12 (Post 10151733)
I would say Porter has to be careful with expanding too quickly.

That's my worry too.

It's all and wonderful to have big dreams, but the aviation sector in this country has a weird way of doing it. It is very '3 Stooges trying to walk through the door together' vibes.

The Canadian aviation market needed shaking up, but the 3 Stooges way of approaching it seems the wrong one. Porter didn't need to bet the house, but it sure has. Doubled down, too. Odd timing, unless they feel the competition's not as robust as it seems to be and they can win in the long-term.

We shall see how long Porter's money lasts. Flair's surprised me so far, even if ominous headlines keep appearing.

whatnext Feb 26, 2024 5:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thewave46 (Post 10152190)
That's my worry too.

It's all and wonderful to have big dreams, but the aviation sector in this country has a weird way of doing it. It is very '3 Stooges trying to walk through the door together' vibes.

The Canadian aviation market needed shaking up, but the 3 Stooges way of approaching it seems the wrong one. Porter didn't need to bet the house, but it sure has. Doubled down, too. Odd timing, unless they feel the competition's not as robust as it seems to be and they can win in the long-term.

We shall see how long Porter's money lasts. Flair's surprised me so far, even if ominous headlines keep appearing.

Again, I'll point out that Porter had the advantage of a warchest amassed by selling YTZ. A great Porter backgrounder here:

....Bromides notwithstanding, the TPA has acted in virtual lockstep with Porter. Its former CEO, current federal Minister of Transport Lisa Raitt, played bountiful midwife at Porter’s birth, granting Deluce the lion’s share (originally 95 per cent, now 85 per cent) of landing slots at Billy Bishop and ceding exclusive rights to operate a terminal.

“The way Deluce has played the Port Authority is masterful,” says Douglas Reid, a former TPA board member, now teaching at Queen’s School of Business. “He got them to buy a second ferry boat. He got them to build the tunnel. How he gets these doings done is nothing short of a miracle. The record of decisions favouring Deluce, without exposing him to costs, raises the question of who’s running the airport. It’s a textbook case of a tenant capturing a landlord.”..

https://torontolife.com/city/the-rel...robert-deluce/


Nobody's mentioned it, but they also just got a Canada Infrastructure Bank loan for building the St.Hubert airport on Montreal's south shore. Thereby neatly setting the Deluce's up to repeat the YTZ game plan by selling it off in a few years. Deluce is definitely shrewd.

New St-Hubert airport terminal gets $90-million loan from infrastructure bank
The South Shore airport's terminal, which is scheduled to open in 2025, will be able to handle up to four million passengers a year.

Author of the article:Frédéric Tomesco
Published Feb 06, 2024

A new airport terminal in St-Hubert is expected to open in 2025. Image courtesy of Porter Airlines

St-Hubert airport’s planned expansion is a step closer to reality after the Canada Infrastructure Bank approved a $90-million investment in a new passenger terminal.

The loan will allow Toronto-based Porter Aviation Holdings Inc. and Australia’s Macquarie Asset Management to jointly build the terminal, CIB said Tuesday. Exact terms aren’t being disclosed, though the financing is of a long-term nature, the federal Crown corporation said.

Airport authorities said last week that the airfield had been renamed Montreal Metropolitan Airport as part of its makeover. St-Hubert’s main runway can accommodate most commercial aircraft operating in Canada.

Scheduled to open in the summer of 2025, the new terminal — estimated to cost at least $200 million — will eventually be able to handle up to four million passengers a year. Porter plans to serve all major Canadian cities from the South Shore with a combination of Embraer E195-E2 jets and Dash 8-400 turboprops, while providing connecting flights for passengers served by Pascan regional airlines.....


https://montrealgazette.com/business...ers%20a%20year.

big T Feb 26, 2024 8:36 PM

The Montreal Metropolitan airport in St Hubert is not really a copy-paste of the YTZ business model though. Importantly, you need to cross a bridge to get to/from downtown, so most if not all the time saving will be due to the smaller/more efficient terminal compared to YUL, rather than physical distance. Per Google, as I'm writing this it takes 21 min to get to YUL from Place Ville-Marie, vs 25 min to get to St Hubert airport... without even mentioning that YUL will at long last get a real transit link to downtown, so until St Hubert gets the same YUL will absolutely win out accessibility wise thanks to predictable travel time.

I think the main positives will be to help offload YUL which is bursting at the seams (though the bulk of the issue is more of the intl side, so the effect will be muted), and (presumably) lower operating costs for Porter themselves. But for travellers anywhere outside the South Shore, this will not nearly be the game changer YTZ has been.

thenoflyzone Feb 26, 2024 8:41 PM

There's only so many aces you can hide up your sleeve.

Getting a loan and then having to pay it back, with interest, isn't the same as getting other people to do things for you, the way they did at YTZ (tunnel, second ferry, etc).

And as I've said before, while they're trying to emulate YTZ over at YHU, it won't be nearly as much a success story as they think it will. Montreal is not Toronto.

1. YHU isn't any closer to downtown Montreal compared to YUL. It might even take more time to get to downtown compared to YUL.
2. YHU will be limited to domestic flights only, and no one in Quebec wants to go to Edmonton or Winnipeg or Regina. YUL's lackluster domestic numbers are proof of this.

If PD thinks it will have a dozen Ejet flights a day from YHU to YYZ, YVR, YYC, YEG, YWG, etc, and make money off of it, even with feed from Pascan, they're dreaming.

All they will do is add costs running crew at a second Montreal airport, for very little gain, because they know they will need to keep their ops at YUL going, due to the TS tie-up. The true winners here are AC, which will take over the freed up gates at YUL with pleasure, and DASH-L, the airport operator at YHU, which is getting a shiny new terminal building for free, essentially.

Still a lot of unanswered questions with PD's expansion plans in general. Time will tell if it's successful or not. I have very serious doubts.

YOWhopeful Feb 26, 2024 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by big T (Post 10152427)
The Montreal Metropolitan airport in St Hubert is not really a copy-paste of the YTZ business model though. Importantly, you need to cross a bridge to get to/from downtown, so most if not all the time saving will be due to the smaller/more efficient terminal compared to YUL, rather than physical distance. Per Google, as I'm writing this it takes 21 min to get to YUL from Place Ville-Marie, vs 25 min to get to St Hubert airport... without even mentioning that YUL will at long last get a real transit link to downtown, so until St Hubert gets the same YUL will absolutely win out accessibility wise thanks to predictable travel time.

I think the main positives will be to help offload YUL which is bursting at the seams (though the bulk of the issue is more of the intl side, so the effect will be muted), and (presumably) lower operating costs for Porter themselves. But for travellers anywhere outside the South Shore, this will not nearly be the game changer YTZ has been.

Yes but Saint Hubert airport is just a 13 minute ride from Longueuil subway station. If Porter sets up a shuttle service from the airport to the subway station (as it did to Union Station from YTZ) then you’re pretty much set and no bridges to worry about.

whatnext Feb 26, 2024 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 10152435)
There's only so many aces you can hide up your sleeve.

Getting a loan and then having to pay it back, with interest, isn't the same as getting other people to do things for you, the way they did at YTZ (tunnel, second ferry, etc).

And as I've said before, while they're trying to emulate YTZ over at YHU, it won't be nearly as much a success story as they think it will. Montreal is not Toronto.

1. YHU isn't any closer to downtown Montreal compared to YUL. It might even take more time to get to downtown compared to YUL.
2. YHU will be limited to domestic flights only, and no one in Quebec wants to go to Edmonton or Winnipeg or Regina. YUL's lackluster domestic numbers are proof of this.

If PD thinks it will have a dozen Ejet flights a day from YHU to YYZ, YVR, YYC, YEG, YWG, etc, and make money off of it, even with feed from Pascan, they're dreaming.

All they will do is add costs running crew at a second Montreal airport, for very little gain, because they know they will need to keep their ops at YUL going, due to the TS tie-up. The true winners here are AC, which will take over the freed up gates at YUL with pleasure, and DASH-L, the airport operator at YHU, which is getting a shiny new terminal building for free, essentially.

Still a lot of unanswered questions with PD's expansion plans in general. Time will tell if it's successful or not. I have very serious doubts.

Yes, it is not quite the same but I can't help think that's why they've gone into St. Hubert

That said, I'd rather Porter survive than Flair.

hollywoodcory Feb 27, 2024 12:21 AM

WS adding the following YHM routes for S24:

YHM-YHZ - 1x daily
YHM-YYT - 5x weekly
YHM-MCO - 2x weekly

Also there’s a one time 787 flight added between YVR-YYC on April 28 likely for repositioning purposes.

Djeffery Feb 27, 2024 1:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory (Post 10152628)
WS adding the following YHM routes for S24:

YHM-YHZ - 1x daily
YHM-YYT - 5x weekly
YHM-MCO - 2x weekly

Also there’s a one time 787 flight added between YVR-YYC on April 28 likely for repositioning purposes.

Any other additions elsewhere?

Myst Feb 27, 2024 1:53 AM

Time will tell on YHU.

I suspect they’re really aiming for the south shore market. I’m sure some will use it. Some will fly to YYZ to connect. Some will use it to visit family on the south shore or eastwards. The question is whether the domestic tourist market will even consider it. And whether it can work with the TS alliance and with the soup maybe being thinned out too much with “focus” at YHU+YUL+YOW. And how many passengers it takes to make viable.

Despite current restrictions, I expect they’ll find a way to add some US (read: Florida) eventually.

hollywoodcory Feb 27, 2024 2:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Djeffery (Post 10152659)
Any other additions elsewhere?

That’s it for now as far as I can tell.

Base Feb 27, 2024 4:06 AM

Still baffled YHU is shutout from transborder operations. Seems very anti competitive.

Dominion301 Feb 27, 2024 5:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myst (Post 10152686)
Time will tell on YHU.

I suspect they’re really aiming for the south shore market. I’m sure some will use it. Some will fly to YYZ to connect. Some will use it to visit family on the south shore or eastwards. The question is whether the domestic tourist market will even consider it. And whether it can work with the TS alliance and with the soup maybe being thinned out too much with “focus” at YHU+YUL+YOW. And how many passengers it takes to make viable.

Despite current restrictions, I expect they’ll find a way to add some US (read: Florida) eventually.

Like I've previously mentioned how I think PD are developing YOW to be like AS' PDX akin to YYZ being SEA, I think PD will have distinct roles for YUL and YHU sort of akin to AA at JFK vs LGA.

YUL: a) Feed TS from the west, including YYZ, b) serve the majority of Montreal-YTZ flights, c) keep the longstanding YUL-YHZ high O&D route that affords some connections west and d) for anything transborder/international they do out of Montreal to sun destinations. I also think eventually there will be a couple of YUL-YOW DH4s per day to feed YOW's morning and evening banks and to feed TS at YUL.

YHU: anything domestic, including some overlap with YUL to YHZ, YYZ & YTZ. Flights timed for connections, including schedule coordination with Pascan. Possible destinations beyond the three already mentioned: YYT, YYG (seasonally), YQM, YFC, YXU, YOW (like YUL a couple of DH4s per day for feed on both ends), YWG, YEG, YYC, YVR on PD metal, plus maybe the likes of YXU, YSJ on Pascan.


Does anyone know whether PD will be able to sell transborder/international connections to/from YHU via YOW/YYZ or is that also banned too as part of the ADM's monopoly on those flights?

hehehe Feb 27, 2024 5:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory (Post 10152704)
That’s it for now as far as I can tell.

The only thing I can see is YYC-YHM reduced to 8x weekly

Dominion301 Feb 27, 2024 2:32 PM

The next two PD routes to be announced, include the much talked about "matter of when" YYT-YOW and a new PD destination - YDF to YHZ.

YHZ-YDF will be on the DH4.

Here are the schedules eff 04JUN24 for YDF-YHZ and 06JUN24 for YYT-YOW:

PD2195 YHZ-YDF 1245-1443
PD2196 YDF-YHZ 1525-1630

PD 296 YYT-YOW 0600-0745
PD 299 YOW-YYT 1410-1825

https://www.newswire.ca/news-release...860883531.html

big T Feb 27, 2024 4:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YOWhopeful (Post 10152548)
Yes but Saint Hubert airport is just a 13 minute ride from Longueuil subway station. If Porter sets up a shuttle service from the airport to the subway station (as it did to Union Station from YTZ) then you’re pretty much set and no bridges to worry about.

YTZ has targeted business travellers from the get go. Its proximity to downtown has made same-day round trips from Montreal or Ottawa a much more attractive proposition than ever before. And even if you're staying overnight, getting in so close to downtown is always a plus.

On the Montreal end, YHU is very unlikely to ever be the preferred business O/D gateway. For business folks taking a cab (the majority), YUL is better. For those preferring transit, YUL will be a single seat ride to the heart of downtown, vs (presumably) a 3-seat ride from YHU (shuttle - yellow line - orange or green). It will only be a business gateway to the South Shore (say, Dix30), the same way you'd pick YYZ when going to Brampton or Mississauga.

What YHU would be well positioned for is low cost leisure, but without pre-clearance you'd have to go for really attractive fares to make up for the inconvenience. Domestic leisure out of Montreal is pretty weak, too. Maybe the idea is to use as a lower cost-of-operation feeder into YOW and YTZ. We'll see.

hollywoodcory Feb 27, 2024 6:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hehehe (Post 10152838)
The only thing I can see is YYC-YHM reduced to 8x weekly

Not sure why it doesn't show on WS website yet but here's the schedules:

WS496 YHM 17:00 - 20:08 YHZ 7S8 D
WS371 YHZ 22:10 - 23:38 YHM 7S8 D

WS466 YHM 08:00 - 12:35 YYT 7S8 12356
WS467 YYT 13:35 - 15:42 YHM 7S8 12356

WS1914 YHM 07:05 - 10:05 MCO 7S8 47
WS1715 MCO 11:30 - 14:20 YHM 7S8 47

hehehe Feb 27, 2024 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory (Post 10153151)
Not sure why it doesn't show on WS website yet but here's the schedules:

WS496 YHM 17:00 - 20:08 YHZ 7S8 D
WS371 YHZ 22:10 - 23:38 YHM 7S8 D

WS466 YHM 08:00 - 12:35 YYT 7S8 12356
WS467 YYT 13:35 - 15:42 YHM 7S8 12356

WS1914 YHM 07:05 - 10:05 MCO 7S8 47
WS1715 MCO 11:30 - 14:20 YHM 7S8 47

I always wonder why WS quietly and separately makes YHM changes with no attention brought to it at all. Seems odd

Myst Feb 28, 2024 1:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by big T (Post 10153002)
What YHU would be well positioned for is low cost leisure, but without pre-clearance you'd have to go for really attractive fares to make up for the inconvenience.

As much as preclearance is popular, I don’t know that leisure travellers would pay any extra for it.

I wonder if preclearance costs anything extra. If it does, a non-precleared airport could actually be an advantage for a leisure airline.

thenoflyzone Feb 28, 2024 2:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Base (Post 10152784)
Still baffled YHU is shutout from transborder operations. Seems very anti competitive.

ADM was smart putting that clause in their lease agreement with Transport Canada.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominion301 (Post 10152832)

Does anyone know whether PD will be able to sell transborder/international connections to/from YHU via YOW/YYZ or is that also banned too as part of the ADM's monopoly on those flights?

Pretty sure they will be able to do that. ADM has exclusivity on international flights out of Montreal. Not passengers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myst (Post 10153524)
As much as preclearance is popular, I don’t know that leisure travellers would pay any extra for it.

I wonder if preclearance costs anything extra. If it does, a non-precleared airport could actually be an advantage for a leisure airline.

Setting up preclearance costs money for the airport authority (building the space for it, etc). Once that's done, the rest is on the US. The personnel and operating costs associated with the pre-clearance facility (salaries and benefits of its preclearance officers; purchase, inspection, and maintenance of equipment, etc.) is all paid by the US.

Whether you fly out of YUL or YHU, if your final destination is somewhere in the US, you will be paying the same fee for USCBP in your ticket, which at the moment is 6.97$ per passenger. Doesn't matter where you clear customs.

Dominion301 Feb 28, 2024 3:56 PM

YOW's January 2024 pax numbers are out. The weak domestic numbers can pretty much be entirely attributed to F8 + 3 fewer daily WS departures to YYZ. PD's additions haven't had time yet to catch up with the lost capacity.

Sector / Jan-23 / Jan-24 / % Change
Dom: 204,142 / 198,166 / -2.9%
TB: 42,530 / 71,462 / +68.0% - just shy of 2015's record of 72,879
Int'l: 54,055 / 71,790 / +32.8% - close to 2012's record, both for January and all-time monthly of 73,607
TTL: 300,727 / 341,418 / +13.5% - slightly higher than 2008 which came in at 340,169

January % of traffic recovered vs 2019
Sector / Traffic % recovered January 2024 vs January 2019
Dom: 72.6%
TB: 107.3%
Int'l: 112.5%
TTL: 84.6%

12 Months Rolling / % Change vs Year End 2022
Dom: 3,196,923 / +18.0%
TB: 605,065 / +217.9%
Int'l: 334,617 / +232.5%
TTL: 4,136,605 / +253.3%

thenoflyzone Feb 29, 2024 12:01 PM

As of tonight, Mexicans will need visas to enter Canada once again.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/mex...ylum-1.7128408

Let’s see how this affects AM on their multiple daily flights from MEX to YUL, YVR and YYZ. I think reductions are more than likely.

The article says it won’t be as bad as the Harper era visa requirement, but that it will still affect 40% of Mexican travellers to Canada.

hollywoodcory Mar 1, 2024 7:12 PM

WS resumes TATL operations from Eastern Canada today with daily YYZ-DUB kicking off. First non-YYC TATL since 2022.

WS will operate to up to 4 Europe destinations this month which is the most they've served this early in the season. (LHR, CDG, DUB and FCO).

whatnext Mar 1, 2024 8:57 PM

Somewhat tangential but it is great to see Boeing unwinding some of the disastrous decisions made by previous leaders. Now move the HQ back to Seattle!

Boeing Is in Talks to Buy Ex-Unit Spirit AeroSystems
Both companies are facing scrutiny over quality lapses
Spirit Aero had been owned by Boeing before 2005 spinout
March 1, 2024 at 8:17 AM PST

Boeing Co. is in discussions to acquire Spirit AeroSystems Holdings Inc., a move that would reclaim control of its struggling former aerostructures unit and the main supplier at the center of numerous quality issues affecting the 737 Max airliner....


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...&sref=x4rjnz06

thenoflyzone Mar 1, 2024 10:03 PM

StatsCan finally posted December 2023 aircraft movements numbers for Canada's airports. So 2023 full year figures are available if you add up the monthly totals.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1...pid=2310029601

I already did the hard work and compiled it all, at least for the top 22 airports in the country.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...orts_in_Canada

Notable decreases compared to last year, most likely all VFR movement related:

YQB (-12.4%)
YTZ (-10.5%)
YOW (-7.1%)

They all lost several spots in the rankings.

There are some tight races to watch for this year, if the Y.O.Y increases trend the same way...(YYC/YUL in particular).

Quote:

Originally Posted by whatnext (Post 10155953)
Somewhat tangential but it is great to see Boeing unwinding some of the disastrous decisions made by previous leaders. Now move the HQ back to Seattle!

Boeing Is in Talks to Buy Ex-Unit Spirit AeroSystems
Both companies are facing scrutiny over quality lapses
Spirit Aero had been owned by Boeing before 2005 spinout
March 1, 2024 at 8:17 AM PST

Boeing Co. is in discussions to acquire Spirit AeroSystems Holdings Inc., a move that would reclaim control of its struggling former aerostructures unit and the main supplier at the center of numerous quality issues affecting the 737 Max airliner....


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...&sref=x4rjnz06

Spirit has been a shit show for a number of years now. This is a good move by Boeing.

Dominion301 Mar 2, 2024 3:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 10156003)
StatsCan finally posted December 2023 aircraft movements numbers for Canada's airports. So 2023 full year figures are available if you add up the monthly totals.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1...pid=2310029601

I already did the hard work and compiled it all, at least for the top 22 airports in the country.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...orts_in_Canada

Notable decreases compared to last year, most likely all VFR movement related:

YQB (-12.4%)
YTZ (-10.5%)
YOW (-7.1%)

They all lost several spots in the rankings.

There are some tight races to watch for this year, if the Y.O.Y increases trend the same way...(YYC/YUL in particular).



Spirit has been a shit show for a number of years now. This is a good move by Boeing.

That’s quite the movements drop for those 3 airports. Commercial movements had to have been up at YQB and YOW and were probably down slightly at YTZ, which makes the VFR drop at YOW & YQB even more pronounced. I wonder why? In the case of YOW, it might be partially explained by the alternative airfields nearby for general aviation - YRP - Carp, YRO - Rockcliffe and YND - Gatineau. YND has a FSS, and I checked and movements in 2023 were +3,557 vs 2022.

With YOO up 19% it’s evident where all the Buttonville movements went to. Some probably also went to the privately owned Brampton air strip. Surprised none shifted to YTZ.

Yeah Boeing spinning off ICT into Spirit was nothing but corporate greed just like the HQ move to a city where they had no historical ties to. It’s karma on them.

samuelx88 Mar 3, 2024 4:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominion301 (Post 10156282)
That’s quite the movements drop for those 3 airports. Commercial movements had to have been up at YQB and YOW and were probably down slightly at YTZ, which makes the VFR drop at YOW & YQB even more pronounced. I wonder why? In the case of YOW, it might be partially explained by the alternative airfields nearby for general aviation - YRP - Carp, YRO - Rockcliffe and YND - Gatineau. YND has a FSS, and I checked and movements in 2023 were +3,557 vs 2022.

With YOO up 19% it’s evident where all the Buttonville movements went to. Some probably also went to the privately owned Brampton air strip. Surprised none shifted to YTZ.

Yeah Boeing spinning off ICT into Spirit was nothing but corporate greed just like the HQ move to a city where they had no historical ties to. It’s karma on them.

I think it is caused by the removal of all South flights from YQB by AC this winter

thenoflyzone Mar 3, 2024 5:57 PM

I compiled the aircraft movement numbers for 2022/2023 for all 42 airports with NavCan control towers in Canada.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...orts_in_Canada

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominion301 (Post 10156282)
That’s quite the movements drop for those 3 airports. Commercial movements had to have been up at YQB and YOW and were probably down slightly at YTZ, which makes the VFR drop at YOW & YQB even more pronounced. I wonder why? In the case of YOW, it might be partially explained by the alternative airfields nearby for general aviation - YRP - Carp, YRO - Rockcliffe and YND - Gatineau. YND has a FSS, and I checked and movements in 2023 were +3,557 vs 2022.

With YOO up 19% it’s evident where all the Buttonville movements went to. Some probably also went to the privately owned Brampton air strip. Surprised none shifted to YTZ.

YND is becoming very busy. NavCan might open a control tower at the airport. It's currently only an FSS and handled over 57,000 movements in 2023. That's busier than over a dozen airports with control towers in the country, including some big name airports like YHZ, YMX, YHM, YZF and YQR. However, it is worth mentioning that the usual caveat still applies here, in that FSS numbers include overflights, whereas control tower numbers do not. Don't know how StatsCan is dealing with this now, so that is why my list on wiki only includes NavCan airports with control towers.

Level of service study for YND is currently in progress.

https://www.navcanada.ca/en/air-traf...-gatineau.aspx

As for Buttonville, I'm not surprised about the GA pilots not moving over to YTZ. If you lived around YKZ, then City-Centre is not convenient at all. It also might not have that much additional space for aircraft parking, and the airport fees at YTZ must be astronomical compared to a place like YOO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by samuelx88 (Post 10156712)
I think it is caused by the removal of all South flights from YQB by AC this winter

No.

AC’s winter seasonal sun flights out of YQB were negligible in terms of additional movements.

The reduction in movements from 2022>2023 was 16,720 movements. AC's flights to sun routes (FLL, CUN, PUJ and MCO), based on the source linked, was 18 flights a week (at peak), for ~4 months out of the year. That's less than 300 arrivals/departures. That's it. So clearly not the main reason.

JakeLRS Mar 3, 2024 8:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hehehe (Post 10153396)
I always wonder why WS quietly and separately makes YHM changes with no attention brought to it at all. Seems odd

They would usually release a press release on YHM adds, but almost a week later, neither the airline or the airport has announced any of these new additions... Are they maybe still waiting to add another route or two before announcing?

I swear, WS/YHM have the strangest relationship ever.

Dominion301 Mar 3, 2024 9:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JakeLRS (Post 10156817)
They would usually release a press release on YHM adds, but almost a week later, neither the airline or the airport has announced any of these new additions... Are they maybe still waiting to add another route or two before announcing?

I swear, WS/YHM have the strangest relationship ever.

Makes zero sense for WS to add only YHZ & YYT out of YHM and to simply reduce service to YYC out west. You’d think they’d do seasonal YWG, YEG and YVR 3-7x weekly each.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 10156746)
I compiled the aircraft movement numbers for 2022/2023 for all 42 airports with NavCan control towers in Canada.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...orts_in_Canada



YND is becoming very busy. NavCan might open a control tower at the airport. It's currently only an FSS and handled over 57,000 movements in 2023. That's busier than over a dozen airports with control towers in the country, including some big name airports like YHZ, YMX, YHM, YZF and YQR. However, it is worth mentioning that the usual caveat still applies here, in that FSS numbers include overflights, whereas control tower numbers do not. Don't know how StatsCan is dealing with this now, so that is why my list on wiki only includes NavCan airports with control towers.

Level of service study for YND is currently in progress.

https://www.navcanada.ca/en/air-traf...-gatineau.aspx

As for Buttonville, I'm not surprised about the GA pilots not moving over to YTZ. If you lived around YKZ, then City-Centre is not convenient at all. It also might not have that much additional space for aircraft parking, and the airport fees at YTZ must be astronomical compared to a place like YOO.



No.

AC’s winter seasonal sun flights out of YQB were negligible in terms of additional movements.

The reduction in movements from 2022>2023 was 16,720 movements. AC's flights to sun routes (FLL, CUN, PUJ and MCO), based on the source linked, was 18 flights a week (at peak), for ~4 months out of the year. That's less than 300 arrivals/departures. That's it. So clearly not the main reason.

That’s interesting about the YND tower study. Traffic there falls off a cliff from December-February but on a sunny summertime touch & go Saturday is probably busier than YOW.

Djeffery Mar 4, 2024 11:45 AM

What constitutes an "aircraft movement"? A student goes out, takes off, does 3 touch and go's and one final landing in an hour. Does that count as 8 movements, one for each take off and landing, or only 2 for the initial take off and final landing, or does a touch and go count as one movement, for 5 in that example? For YXU to have 300-ish a day on average, I would have to think almost 90% of those are student flights from the several flight schools.

manny_santos Mar 4, 2024 7:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 10154645)
As of tonight, Mexicans will need visas to enter Canada once again.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/mex...ylum-1.7128408

Let’s see how this affects AM on their multiple daily flights from MEX to YUL, YVR and YYZ. I think reductions are more than likely.

The article says it won’t be as bad as the Harper era visa requirement, but that it will still affect 40% of Mexican travellers to Canada.

I've travelled between YYZ and MEX a number of times over the years. Prices were significantly lower a number of years ago, but from both YYZ and YVR prices had ballooned in the years following the visa requirement being lifted in 2016, I'm guessing due to demand. I'm going there again later this year and it was actually cheaper for me to fly from YVR to San Diego and then cross to Tijuana and fly the rest of the way from there.

I would assume prices will come down to some extent, but it shouldn't have much impact on business travel or tourist travel from those who already are avid travelers. Anyone I know there that would potentially travel to Canada already has a US visa and would not be impacted by the new Canadian visa requirements.

Dominion301 Mar 4, 2024 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Djeffery (Post 10157046)
What constitutes an "aircraft movement"? A student goes out, takes off, does 3 touch and go's and one final landing in an hour. Does that count as 8 movements, one for each take off and landing, or only 2 for the initial take off and final landing, or does a touch and go count as one movement, for 5 in that example? For YXU to have 300-ish a day on average, I would have to think almost 90% of those are student flights from the several flight schools.

Unless something's changed in recent years that @Thenoflyzone can correct, a Cessna doing touch-and-go circuits would constitute 2 local movements - the initial takeoff and the final landing.

thenoflyzone Mar 5, 2024 4:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Djeffery (Post 10157046)
What constitutes an "aircraft movement"? A student goes out, takes off, does 3 touch and go's and one final landing in an hour. Does that count as 8 movements, one for each take off and landing, or only 2 for the initial take off and final landing, or does a touch and go count as one movement, for 5 in that example? For YXU to have 300-ish a day on average, I would have to think almost 90% of those are student flights from the several flight schools.

It counts as 8 movements.

A takeoff is a movement.
A landing is a movement.
A touch and go is a combination of both of them, so counts as 2 movements (a landing, followed immediately by a takeoff)

Therefore, a takeoff, 3 touch and goes, followed by a landing counts as 8 movements.

This is why and how an airport like Boundary Bay is the third busiest airport in the country. 70% of the movements there are local, i.e. touch and goes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominion301 (Post 10157535)
Unless something's changed in recent years that @Thenoflyzone can correct, a Cessna doing touch-and-go circuits would constitute 2 local movements - the initial takeoff and the final landing.

No. Like I said above, every landing and every takeoff counts as a movement. Doesn’t matter if they are done separately, or in one motion (touch and go).

Dominion301 Mar 5, 2024 2:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 10157753)
It counts as 8 movements.

A takeoff is a movement.
A landing is a movement.
A touch and go is a combination of both of them, so counts as 2 movements (a landing, followed immediately by a takeoff)

Therefore, a takeoff, 3 touch and goes, followed by a landing counts as 8 movements.

This is why and how an airport like Boundary Bay is the third busiest airport in the country. 70% of the movements there are local, i.e. touch and goes.



No. Like I said above, every landing and every takeoff counts as a movement. Doesn’t matter if they are done separately, or in one motion (touch and go).

Thanks for clarifying as I had always been under the impression Statistics Canada only counted the takeoff and the final landing. So does that mean low approaches aren't counted?

thenoflyzone Mar 5, 2024 3:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominion301 (Post 10157871)
Thanks for clarifying as I had always been under the impression Statistics Canada only counted the takeoff and the final landing. So does that mean low approaches aren't counted?

Low approaches are also counted twice.

The benefit of doing a low approach vs a touch and go (especially at airports like YYZ/YUL) is that they don’t have to pay the landing fee (which can be very expensive) each time.

But movement wise, it’s counted the same as a touch and go.

Dominion301 Mar 5, 2024 5:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 10157893)
Low approaches are also counted twice.

The benefit of doing a low approach vs a touch and go (especially at airports like YYZ/YUL) is that they don’t have to pay the landing fee (which can be very expensive) each time.

But movement wise, it’s counted the same as a touch and go.

Interesting. Do you know if the way in which NavCan counts/records movements is an international standard? Like the Americans talk about operations instead of movements. Do they even concern themselves with local movements?

q12 Mar 5, 2024 9:59 PM

Quote:

NEW: Porter Airlines plans to launch two new U.S. routes:

• Montreal (YUL) to Los Angeles (LAX)
• Montreal (YUL) to San Francisco (SFO)

Flights will operate using its Embraer E195-E2 aircraft. This comes as Porter’s partner Air Transat removed sales for both of these routes.
https://twitter.com/IshrionA/status/1765123554641658116

Air Transat is dropping these routes that were summer seasonal.

RomanR27 Mar 5, 2024 10:44 PM

I noticed TS pulled all their summer domestic transcons as well out of YUL. The PD flights launching this summer are well timed to connect to TS' atlantic flights.

I also suppose this doesn't preclude YOW from getting these routes as well. I wouldn't expect YOW-LAX/SFO to have TS codeshares.

thenoflyzone Mar 6, 2024 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominion301 (Post 10158063)
Interesting. Do you know if the way in which NavCan counts/records movements is an international standard? Like the Americans talk about operations instead of movements. Do they even concern themselves with local movements?

Fairly certain it’s the same everywhere.

thenoflyzone Mar 6, 2024 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by q12 (Post 10158240)
https://twitter.com/IshrionA/status/1765123554641658116

Air Transat is dropping these routes that were summer seasonal.

This was to be expected. Smart move by both of them. We discussed this very scenario back in November, when the tie-up was announced.

Dominion301 Mar 6, 2024 2:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomanR27 (Post 10158265)
I noticed TS pulled all their summer domestic transcons as well out of YUL. The PD flights launching this summer are well timed to connect to TS' atlantic flights.

I also suppose this doesn't preclude YOW from getting these routes as well. I wouldn't expect YOW-LAX/SFO to have TS codeshares.

At least not until TS start flying transatlantic out of YOW. I'll believe it when I see it though.

Wonder where TS will redeploy the 321 capacity to as the transcons I believe were all non-LR routes?

Looks like TS' only remaining domestic routes are YQB-YUL and YYZ-YUL.

Alexcaban Mar 6, 2024 3:50 PM

AC has removed YUL-CAI it seems for summer 2024

thenoflyzone Mar 7, 2024 3:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexcaban (Post 10158674)
AC has removed YUL-CAI it seems for summer 2024

Well it was nice while it lasted. They served the route for three summer seasons. But there were signs of struggle. Last summer, they reduced it from 4x weekly to 3x weekly, albeit up-gauging it to the B789. I guess it still wasn’t enough to make it stick. With a tight widebody fleet, there’s better uses for that frame. Does this mean there is now a 3x weekly B789 slot unaccounted for in AC’s network, or the reshuffle has already been done?

Will be interesting to see if ever MS picks up the slack. Their costs are probably more suited for the intent of this route, mainly targeting the Egyptian diaspora in Montreal, which is lower yielding by nature.

Alexcaban Mar 7, 2024 5:22 PM

According to airliners.net

AC launches YUL-ICN

AC67 YUL-ICN 789 D1246 1235-1625+1 18JUN24-24OCT24
AC68 ICN-YUL 789 D2357 1800-1830 19JUN24-25OCT24

Direct replacement of CAI

thenoflyzone Mar 7, 2024 9:44 PM

^well there you go.

whatnext Mar 7, 2024 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexcaban (Post 10158674)
AC has removed YUL-CAI it seems for summer 2024

Was that their only flight to Cairo?


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