U.S. venue group OVG heads up Hamilton arena renovation in first Canadian project

ANGELA KRYHUL GLOBE AND MAIL PUBLISHED JUNE 14, 2022

When Los Angeles-based Oak View Group (OVG), a global sports and entertainment company, went looking for its first arena project north of the border, it found its sweet spot in Hamilton.

FirstOntario Centre (formerly Copps Coliseum) may have witnessed Canada’s 1987 Canada Cup victory against the Soviet Union, but the aging venue will soon be torn back to the studs and brought up to 21st-century standards as part of the City of Hamilton’s vision for a new multimillion-dollar sports, entertainment and cultural district.

The privately funded downtown project is driven by the Hamilton Urban Precinct Entertainment Group LP (HUPEG), a regional consortium led by Carmen’s Group and the Mercanti Family and Associates working in collaboration with venue operators, industry consultants and development partners, including Laborers’ International Union of North America (LIUNA), Meridian Credit Union and Paletta International.
OVG, which recently launched its Canadian division in Toronto, was brought in for its sports venue expertise and entertainment industry connections; the renovated building will serve Hamilton’s hometown teams as well as visiting big-name acts.

OVG is making headlines for its arena projects in the U.S. and Europe. Founded in 2015 by Tim Leiweke, former president and chief executive officer of Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment, and entertainment industry trailblazer Irving Azoff, the company just announced a new US$3-billion arena-casino-hotel-amphitheatre development in Las Vegas; it recently completed the Climate Pledge Arena in Seattle and the UBS Arena in Belmont, N.Y.; and Manchester’s Co-op Live, at 23,500 seats, will become the largest indoor arena and live-music venue in Britain.

Stephen Collins, OVG’s president, global venue development and special projects, says some of the innovations built into the company’s other arena projects will be tailored to FirstOntario Centre. “None [of our projects] looks like they were produced by the same developer,” he says. “They all have unique elements that are appropriate for their markets.”

With construction work set to begin in late spring 2023, FirstOntario Centre will get a new exterior façade and video board and will better integrate at street level, along York Boulevard and Bay Street, with a year-round sports lounge, e-sports zone and local restaurants.

The overall redevelopment plan aims for a live-work-play experience similar to Toronto’s Distillery District and Maple Leaf Square (aka Jurassic Park), Edmonton’s Ice District and L.A. Live in Los Angeles, says Jasper Kujavsky, director of the arena renovation project and a HUPEG founding partner.

The arena has “good bones,” Mr. Kujavsky says, and is situated close to downtown hotels, restaurants, shops and public transit, including the future Light Rail Transit system. While the venue is currently home to the Hamilton Bulldogs (Ontario Hockey League), Hamilton Honey Badgers (Canadian Elite Basketball League) and the Toronto Rock (National Lacrosse League), the renovation will give it a better shot at hosting additional sporting events such as the Canadian Hockey League’s Memorial Cup, he says.

The three teams have not yet announced where they will temporarily relocate to during the renovation, Mr. Kujavsky says.

Inside the venue, with seating remaining at about 17,500, there will be expanded concourses, comprehensive transformation of the lower bowl, more comfortable seating and better sightlines. A flexible curtaining system will block off the upper-bowl balcony when not in use to help create a more intimate attendee experience in the lower bowl.

The venue’s locker rooms will be modernized with on-site training facilities and social spaces where athletes can unwind, and the roof structure will be reinforced to handle a modern scoreboard as well as rigging for concerts and shows.

The renovation will convert about 80,000 square feet of storage space to restaurants, suites and club areas. “That will change the dynamic of the building,” Mr. Kujavsky says.

“We can open up that space and provide a greater experience and help drive more revenue for the building and the community,” Mr. Collins adds.

Part of the plan is a sort of democratization of the venue’s social spaces, he says: “We come from the mindset that we need to provide something for everyone so there aren’t the haves and the have-nots. There are different opportunities for different areas of the building.”

OVG-designed venues offer traditional executive suites as well as theatre-style seating adjacent to club spaces for those who require only a few seats to entertain clients.

The luxury box as a driver of revenue is a significant development in modern sport venue design, notes Peter Sealy, assistant professor at University of Toronto’s John H. Daniels Faculty of Architecture, Landscape and Design – fast WiFi, the latest big-screen technology, sophisticated sound and light equipment, and streetscape integration are all must-haves these days.

“Revenue from luxury boxes plays a huge role in the overall financial picture,” he says.

OVG’s arena projects have veered away from traditional food and beverage concession stands toward innovations such as Amazon’s Just Walk Out technology, which is in Seattle’s Climate Pledge Arena and New York’s UBS Arena.

A customer’s scanned credit card is automatically charged when they take food and beverages off the shelves, eliminating checkout lineups. OVG is also looking at a marketplace concept for FirstOntario Centre that’s similar to the grocery store self-checkout experience, Mr. Collins adds.

With Hamilton as its Canadian entry point, OVG is interested in communities that wish to revitalize their sports and entertainment offerings or are underserved by their current venues, Mr. Collins says.

As for size, OVG’s sweet spot is typically just over 20,000 seats. “We try to stay in that ballpark because that’s what we feel we do best,” Mr. Collins says. “Our strategic relationships with content providers scale to that size and the economics work better for us.”

Hamilton’s new sports, entertainment and cultural district by the numbers

• The $500-million residential-office-retail development will include 5 per cent affordable housing.
• HUPEG is responsible for the operation and maintenance of FirstOntario Centre, the FirstOntario Concert Hall and the Hamilton Convention Centre for 49 years, with no monetary contribution from the city and with the city retaining ownership of the lands and facilities.
• $12.5-million-plus in upgrades will be applied to the existing Hamilton Convention Centre and Concert Hall.
• A one-time contribution of $2-million will be made to the Art Gallery of Hamilton.
• Savings to taxpayers: $155-million over 30 years, according to a 2019 study by Ernst and Young.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busi...eid=914e0b1e91

Great news!

Has Michael Andlauer ever confirmed he supports FirstOntario renovation? With the Bulldogs at the Memorial Cup, you'd think he would say something about the future of the Bulldogs.

More expensive reno? Who could have figured. :haha:

It is troubling that this group has not kept its tenants informed. Is this the way they will handle their other operations and plans?


FirstOntario Centre renos now expected to begin next summer
But main users say they haven’t heard from Hamilton Urban Precinct Entertainment Group, the group in charge, in months

https://www.thespec.com/sports/opini...mmer-2023.html

https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%...mmer-2023.html

When the city agreed to let the Hamilton Urban Precinct Entertainment Group renovate FirstOntario Centre just over a year ago — as part of a larger downtown facilities rehabilitation project — it said work on the building was to begin in the fall of 2022. As in a couple months from now.

Is that still happening?

“It’s going to be after the end of this coming sports season,” says HUPEG partner and director of the arena project Jasper Kujavsky.

In other words, no. The new plan would push the start of construction to next June or July after the Hamilton Bulldogs and Toronto Rock finish their seasons. Less disruption to them, that way.

There are a number of other reasons for the later time frame, too. A big one is the scale of what they’re planning to do has double or tripled in size since former Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment boss Tim Leiweke and his Oak View Group got involved. Instead of $50 million or so, it’s now going to be somewhere between $100 million and $200 million. A bigger project takes more time to arrange. The promise is that this will be spectacular.

Just one small problem. The main users of the building don’t seem to know what’s going on.

Bulldogs owner Michael Andlauer says he hasn’t heard from the consortium with an update for nine months. Which leaves him uncertain about the future of the arena or what he should be doing to prepare for a temporary relocation.

“It’s pretty hard to plan when you have no idea what’s going on,” he says. “And I don’t think anybody does, for that matter.”

He says he doesn’t even know if the city has signed off on the plans yet (They haven’t. Kujavsky says HUPEG will likely be going for approvals sometime around February).

Mike Morreale is commissioner of the Canadian Elite Basketball League whose Hamilton Honey Badgers play at FirstOntario Centre. When was he last time he had a conversation with HUPEG?

“It’s got to be at least a year ago,” he says.

And the owner of the Rock? He says he gets some information but does he know what’s going on with the renovations and plans and timing of stuff?

“Not exactly,” Jamie Dawick says.

...

I know the owners are planning some new initiatives (website, etc) that will help provide a more reliable source of news and updates. That said, they still have to keep their tenants in the loop better.

The intention is there, but there's too many cooks in the kitchen and too many big picture ideas without a solid plan to execute, which is likely why it's so hard to solidify and communicate them.

I mean, it is a hodgepodge of developer landowners, a venue builder and who knows who else behind the scenes. Do we even know how large the “entertainment precinct” is? The city was hush-hush about it, which is basically unheard of anywhere but I digress. What we’re all interested in is the scope of the project, and frankly I don’t feel like we know it- $500 million is just a price tag, not a product. The stadium alone is like 1/5 of that cost. Not to get into fantasy territory, but whatever is going on here must be truly massive to be covered up all the way to the point of financing and approval. I would like to at least know the blocks the various developments will occupy, since clearly a proper site plan or even a digital brochure is too much to ask for.

The discussion right now seems to be mostly focused on the Arena renovation for now, I don't think they've fleshed out the actual development plans too much.

The company handling the arena renovation, OVG, is quite reputable, so I'm confident the renovation will likely be quite well done.

Paletta and LiUNA will likely lead the development portion, but unfortunately Paletta doesn't seem to move quickly on their other projects. Hopefully LiUNA leads the project instead, but they typically pair with Fengate, so we'll have to see how the development works out.

As mentioned before OVG is quite reputable (see my post a few pages back). Whether or not this becomes a clusterfudge and OVG walks away would be my only concern. Their work on Climate Pledge and UBS Arena is very impressive and would make Copps state of the art. Just hope this happens. This is a game changer for the city.

Both of those projects were over $1.1 billion US. I am actually happy to hear that the FirstOntario renovations will be more than $50 million, but I am wondering if they will be limited in what they can do and/or if they will be able to find the money to do the project justice.

Obviously OVG isn't sinking the kind of money into Copps that they spent on Climate Pledge and UBS, but it's a much smaller arena with a smaller market to serve, so it shouldn't be a surprise.

That said, I fully expect the arena to be pretty extensively renovated.

Yes those are state of the art arenas and serving a larger demographic than Hamilton but I could see the all in number for the arena between $200-400M (high end estimate) by the time the renovations are completed. Luckily Copps was designed with the idea of future upgrades/renovations in mind, so hopefully that will keep a lid on costs. There's not a chance this costs less $100M to execute.

Copps isn't actually a much smaller arena in a physical sense. But it probably can do without all of the bells and whistles. And the Seattle arena renovation did involve some pretty substantial changes --- they lowered the arena bowl and did a ton of stuff with the roof.

Oak View Group, led by former MLSE CEO, would put $50M into Hamilton arena renovation

“HUPEG is seeking to partner with OVG for the redevelopment of FirstOntario Centre and FirstOntario Concert Hall, whereby OVG will increase the minimum investment of HUPEG’s original $50 Million to a minimum of $100 Million for the redevelopment of the FirstOntario Centre, and will bring its considerable financial and more importantly market clout to the renovation and operation of the renovated facilities.”

https://www.insauga.com/oak-view-gro...tKBMv8PGBa4Qnw

Teams angry FirstOntario Centre renos will displace them for two seasons
Team operators say poor communication and late notice of this plan leaves them with little time to find places to play

https://www.thespec.com/news/hamilto...=&utm_content=

Two of the teams that call FirstOntario Centre home are fuming at the city and the group charged with renovating the arena after being told Friday they’re going to be forced out of the building for the better part of two seasons while upgrades are done.

Work will begin late next summer and should take 20 months, meaning the 2023-’24 season and much of the ’24-’25 season will be lost.

“Right now I’m so pissed off,” Hamilton Bulldogs owner Michael Andlauer said. “We won a championship for the city and I’ve just been kicked out by the city.”

“I feel the same way,” said Mike Morreale, commissioner of the Canadian Elite Basketball League, which owns the Hamilton Honey Badgers. “I’m angry. I’m not happy about it at all. The communication breakdown has just been incredible. There’s been none.”

The construction will also affect the Toronto Rock lacrosse team. Concerts and other special large-group events will also be affected.

Until now, both Andlauer and Morreale said, they’d been led to believe their teams would be able to continue playing on site through most of the construction, even if it meant delaying the start of their home schedules or ending early. They said they were blindsided by the new plan because they’d heard nothing from HUPEG, the Hamilton Urban Precinct Entertainment Group, the site’s renovator, for months.

However, in an emailed statement to The Spectator, HUPEG said Andlauer was twice notified during informal conversations at Bulldogs games during last spring’s OHL final. The statement cites what are claimed to be verbatim conversations between Andlauer and HUPEG partner Jasper Kujavsky to that effect.

The statement says Morreale was updated during an informal conversation in October.

“There have been conversations at different levels including within the franchises, HUPEG, the City, and the venue managers, in which the prospect of a 2023-2024 shutdown and construction beginning in the late summer/early fall of 2023 have been discussed,” the statement says.

Andlauer disagreed. He said he learned of the decision in a heated phone call with HUPEG president P.J. Mercanti and at least one city employee on Friday after which he received a letter officially outlining the timeline.

Before that discussion, the Bulldogs owner said the last email he received from the group came months ago. Morreale, who received a similar letter on Friday, said he hadn’t heard from the organization for a year until he unexpectedly ran into a member at an event a month ago. But even that didn’t alert him to what was coming, he said.

Both men say they understood that construction was going to be done in pieces as was the case at Madison Square Garden in New York, which might’ve led to some inconveniences but would’ve allowed them to keep playing through the work.

“That’s what I was told,” Morreale said. “But the letter is opposite to that.”

The letter they received acknowledges discussions about that option had been held with architects and construction partners but explains it’s not recomended at FirstOntario Centre for logistical and financial reasons.

This is unquestionably a huge project. Cost estimates have ranged from $80 million to $200 million. HUPEG says it will save taxpayers $155 million over 30 years while creating an updated state-of-the-art arena that goes beyond that had been required in the master agreement with the city.

Regardless, Andlauer said, not learning the plans until now creates a massive problem for him because he’s supposed to submit available dates for his arena to the Ontario Hockey League by next month so work can begin on next year’s schedule. Now he said he has no idea where his team will be playing — there are no OHL-appropriate buildings in Hamilton or Burlington — and by extension, what nights are available.

“Now I’ve got no place to go,” he said.

Morreale said his problem isn’t just scheduling but the similar lack of other workable venues in the area. He said he will probably have to place the Honey Badgers far afield for two seasons.

Finding a place quickly is a problem all by itself. But after trying to get momentum as a new league and then trying to gain traction again after a COVID layoff, he said, starting fresh for a third time is a gut punch.

“To envision another stoppage of two years is concerning,” he said. “There’s no doubt about it. It’s very concerning.”

The owner of the Toronto Rock also received the notification letter on Friday. Jamie Dawick said he wasn’t shocked — he knew a renovation was coming — but he hadn’t been kept in the loop any more than the others.

He said he’s trying to be positive and think about the finished product three years down the road. And since he doesn’t know all the details of the construction timeline, he hopes his team will only be displaced for one season, though there are questions if that’s possible.

Still, having to find a new home just a year after moving to Hamilton “sucks for me.”

“We didn’t think it was going to be to this extent by any means,” he said.

HUPEG said it will help the teams facilitate conversations to find places to play. And communication will change going forward.

“We acknowledge that in the future all tenants and stakeholders will benefit from more routine update meetings, and we are committed to scheduling and facilitating these meetings to ensure communication efforts are enhanced,” the statement said.

a real clusterf@#$%.

Either this is going to be a reno to end all renos in the 200m range ( dreaming) or

more dithering from the talk a big game group who just might speed things if they can get their paws on taxpayer money.

This has been slow played for a looong time and in the end IF it gets done they will have no tenants.

Lol did the expect they could use it during renovations...? Or that it would a quick renovation? It's been clear from day 1 this will be a major upgrade and will be lengthy

Yeah it seems like the teams should have made plans to find temporary arenas long ago and not wait to the last minute. Yes it seems like communication from HUPEG was poor but regardless the teams knew the "major" renovations were coming. Why wait for emails, they should have had a couple plans in the works to cover a couple different scenarios. This is on them.

I think the point the teams are making is they were led to believe this renovation would be a staged one similar to Madison Square Garden, which managed to be completely revamped over the course of 3 years with the teams still playing in it.

I'm pretty sure I recall seeing it would be closed for many months in an article or something like 6-12 months ago.

Yeah, this shouldn't have come as a shock to anyone. I remember reading that the arena would be closed for a period of time.

I think doing an "in place" renovation while the arena is still being used raises the cost exponentially and extends the renovation time considerably.

Still should have been communicated better. And these "tenants" are actually key stakeholders -- unless the game is to be rid of them eventually, they need to be kept in the loop, closely. Even if it's just to say "we don't have the plan yet"

None of them draw huge crowds so there should be suitable options not too far away. But I suspect we won't see them all return to use the shiny "new" arena.

Maybe communication (good thing Jasper lost as an MP) was bad, but not sure why this is a surprise to the teams involved as others stated. Clearly had been hinted at in multiple articles previously. I'd rather have an AHL team again, but hopefully the Bulldogs stay. Andlauer has been aggressive before with his plans and clearly since he's not getting any piece of the pie like his proposal for the LimeRidge Mall site (which wasn't practical from a transit/logistics standpoint and towards the city's tax base), maybe could see him close up shop and move the team (maybe Brampton needs a team again?).

As for whether this will be a decent reno as per Fruitloops, yes this will literally make FOC the second nicest arena in the GTHA, to ScotiaBank Arena. So it's quite an exciting renovation for the area and provides more optionality in event programming.

Moving the Marlies to Hamilton post-reno would make some sense, especially since the renovating company (OVG Group) has ties to MLSE. Right now the Marlies are just lost in Toronto through all the noise of the top-tier sports teams in the city.

The Leafs moved the Marlies to Toronto from St. John's so that it was easier to swap players in and out of the minor leagues - that could still be easily achieved with their feeder team being located 60km down the QEW, and the team may actually be more profitable in Hamilton than it would be in Toronto where nobody has interest in it due to there being bigger fish in the pond.

Full of hope this is done right. 2009 first discussed on this thread. 2016 private study undertaken. Soon 2023 and nothing done. In cities like NYC or Las Vegas they would have had this done in a jiffy.

My skepticism arises from the reno announced way back when was in dollar terms at that time. Im sure to get the same bang for the 2020 bucks the price tag probably has near doubled. Not sure if the group has the stomach for that. Again hoping for a first class upgrade...Im from Missouri..show me.

Considering it was the city trying to get the reno done and dithering over that vs. replacement, that's actually not too bad. They were also probably hoping a prospective NHL owner would fly in and do it all.

In the U.S. it may have been led by private sector interests from the get-go, even just to push the idea. And they're good at wringing money out of governments. Plus, wasting more than a decade is basically half of a facility's lifespan in many U.S. markets, so why wait? ;)

I didn't see a thread for the team in the Culture, Dining, Sports & Recreation folder, so posting this here. Brampton and Mississauga may further benefit from the temporary reno-victions, though in this case there are no plans to return. I can see the Bulldogs relocating permanently as well.


Honey Badgers leave Hamilton for Brampton after being forced out of FirstOntario Centre, CEBL says
The team will be now known as the Brampton Honey Badgers

CBC News · Nov 28, 2022

The Honey Badgers are leaving Hamilton permanently, the Canadian Elite Basketball League (CEBL) says, after being forced out of First Ontario Centre for the 2024 and 2025 seasons.

The Honey Badgers, CEBL champions, will defend their title in Brampton, Ont., the new home for the team starting the 2023 season.

The team announced, in a press release on Monday, that "due to the closure of Hamilton's FirstOntario Centre during the 2024 and 2025 CEBL seasons while arena renovations occur, the Honey Badgers are being permanently relocated to Brampton in time to begin play for the 2023 season."

The team, along with the Ontario Hockey League's Hamilton Bulldogs and the Toronto Rock of the National Lacrosse League said they were informed earlier this month that FirstOntario Centre would shut down for much of the next two seasons.

Jasper Kujavsky, a partner with the Hamilton Urban Precinct Entertainment Group (HUPEG) — the group managing the renovations — said earlier this month they "anticipate an approximately 20-month construction period beginning in late summer/early fall of 2023."

Mike Morreale, a former Hamilton Ticat, is the commissioner of the CEBL. He said "We were recently informed that renovations to Hamilton's FirstOntario Centre will displace the Honey Badgers for the 2024 and 2025 seasons. Rather than playing elsewhere on a temporary basis during that time and relaunching the team again in 2026, the City of Brampton made it an easy decision for us to establish a permanent new home in one of the best basketball markets in Canada. The opportunity to play in a basketball hotbed and near Mississauga, Toronto, and our Scarborough franchise is a welcomed solution that we're very excited about."

Honey Badgers President John Lashway told the CBC "First of all, a huge thank you to Hamilton... The fans were great and the sponsors were terrific. We doubled our sponsorships reported last year. It's unfortunate that the situation we're in but it's understandable."

Steel Town Athletic Club says impact on kids will be 'huge'

Lashway said "The arena does need renovation in a big way. It's the way it goes. It's not necessarily the way it had to be.

We liked the Hamilton market. We had growing success there despite the pandemic. It's generally been a pretty positive experience there, except for the arena situation which has been hanging over our heads for so long."

Lashway said the team was "shocked' by the decision from HUPEG. He said there were discussions about still being able to play in Hamilton during the renovations "then boom, Nov. 11 we get this letter and it's been zero communication, none. There's far more frustration behind the scenes than I'd care to express publicly."

Vincent Kuber, who runs the Steel Town Athletic Club (STAC), says "I've been upset about this all morning."

STAC runs an athletic development program for BIPOC youth from 14 to 18 years old that includes basketball. Kuber says that in the "summer we had the Honey Badgers involved. They brought a player over. The kids loved it... I'm doing my part to build role models. I'm planning for the summer programming and the Honey Badgers were penciled in as a pretty solid component for this, and now I'm just 'what the heck?'"

Kuber says "what about the Bulldogs? What about the Rock? This is a huge impact on the sports community in Hamilton. How are we supposed to build a reputation, a sustainability for teams to want to stay and exist and be proud? I'd say we took five to 10 years steps backward. This is a huge impact. These kids need these role models."

HUPEG said in a statement Monday that they wish the Honey Badgers well on their move and they appreciate commissioner Mike Morreale's comment about a possible return of a CEBL expansion franchise to the market.

HUPEG said, "Although we anticipated that a temporary relocation would be happening, we wish them well and thank them for their belief in Hamilton."

The hockey market in Hamilton will be back-filled with something.

Given the renovating company's ties to MLSE, I wonder if the Marlies could make a move down the QEW.

Definitely.

People around here seem to like to believe that once something is gone, it's gone for good. Sometimes that's the case, but the market doesn't leave if the team does.

There have been a few times the Tiger-Cats were "on the verge" of being moved... in the 1980s Harold "Pal Hal" Ballard threatened to move them to London if he didn't get what he wanted from the city. Bob Young made a veiled threat at doing so too if he didn't get the stadium location he wanted (then didn't have the heart to do it, supposedly). Would the CFL have come back? Almost certainly. In both cases, there was no legit alternative to host the Ticats, but few people thought about that -- it's different with these minor league teams, but the local money will still be just as good when the arena is done.

It would be ironic if the Bulldogs left permanently as well.
Kind of takes away part of the reason to renovate in the first place.

I can't agree with that. The place needed upgrades 20 years ago, pre-OHL. The AHL edition of the Bulldogs wasn't drawing many more fans either.

To me, this is about renewing a facility that has been valuable to the city, above and beyond the hockey tenants.

Plus this will be one of the nicest stadiums in Canada once the renovation is complete. There will be demand for it's use, and the private consortium running the arena wants to make money and so they will fill it.

Speaking of hockey tenants, the Arizona Coyotes (NHL) have had major attendance issues over the past years and I thought Hamilton could be a sleeper relocation spot. Unfortunately, the NHL commissioner, Gary Bettman, just signed a 30-year non-relocation agreement for the franchise.

Disappointing news since I believe an NHL team coming was a background reason for these upgrades and would be used to convince the NHL it could work here.

Imagine what an NHL franchise would do for this city.

The NHL was never coming to Hamilton even if the Coyotes were to relocate and we had a better arena than any current NHL arena today. It's just not going to happen.

Not only have I given up on a team coming here, but I've lost interest and don't care.

My feelings with regard to an NHL team are the same. It was exhausting enough to go down that road over a decade ago, I'm not doing it again.

The NHL will forever be the Not Hamilton League. Bettman has a very specific agenda when it comes to team locations. We don't fit. EDIT: And I think he's immortal... every time I see a recent video or picture, he looks like he's already been embalmed... ain't going away anytime soon, and he's the personification of the collective ownership who will just create a clone if he does.

Doesn't make FOC a rebel without a cause though. The arena can (and will) host a wide variety of sports and events, just as it has. It's part of the Toronto-centric market -- we see that with concerts (like Blackpink, who only played here and not at Scotiabank Arena or Skydome/Rogers)

there are a half-dozen cities any NHL expansion team or team move would go before Hamilton. Quebec, Houston, Austin, moving back to Atlanta, Portland, Milwaukee, etc. are all probably better candidates.

Hamilton is simply too small of a market.

Better to set our sights on the next-best-thing, which we could actually get. Moving the Marlies would be easy and would give Hamilton a higher caliber of hockey than any other mid-sized city in Ontario.

Hamilton sits in the largest hockey TV market in North America. New York's market is smaller and has 3 teams. There are a lots of well off and rich people around here who cannot get a ticket in Toronto. And the average guy, almost impossible without taking a loan. The market is much larger than Hamilton. And the NHL knows it.

I agree with this because adding another team would inevitably ease the demand for games in Toronto. The buzz surrounding an NHL team compared to that of an AHL/ OHL team is completely different. This is why even the Marlies coming here doesn't really excite me all that much (been there done that). The NHL would be the "something to do" that Hamiltonians talk about (I think we all know this already).

Also, the knock that it's a small market is meh in my opinion. The Green Bay Packers play in a city of 100,000 people and fill up an 80,000-capacity stadium weekly. The demand has been shown there and it has been shown in Hamilton (season ticket line).

The 80m figure (2019/20 dollars) would be a little more than a coat of paint in todays dollars whenever they get around to actually doing the redo. To bring it to big league ie NHL standards would require several hundreds of millions$$.

It would be nice to see some sort of plan or renders on this project.

In addition to losing our 3 Tier 2 tenants for an extended time we are also going to lose prime dates for shows like Disney etc to other markets thinking of spring break etc. No guarantee to getting the tenants or dates back.

Finally on the NHL front we as a city are a long way to meeting basic standards. Case in point during the Centennial classic a lot of NHL staffers stayed at the Sheraton. Some senior staff came in for the weekend and were so put off by the conditions at the Sheraton, actually checked out and took rooms in Toronto.
We need to up our game if for nothing else keep the cities name in the conversation for major events.

Do you mean the Heritage Classic?

While I agree that Southern Ontario is the largest hockey market in the world, the NHL still doesn't care.

A new teams here make the owner of a new team rich/richer, and may boost the TV deal the NHL gets a bit... but overall it doesn't bring in much more money to all the teams. They want to grow the game beyond just hockey markets - they want it to be a national thing in the US. That'll never happen of course - hockey will remain a distant 4th to the NFL, MLB and NBA... but the NHL will keep trying and dreaming.

The difference is that Green Bay was grandfathered. They have a lot of history and stuck around while the NFL grew and remain there today - of course they needed help to stay alive by being publicly owned... the only team in the NFL. Today the NFL would never expand to a city like Green Bay or Buffalo. It's about more than just filling the seats in a stadium/arena.

Hamilton is a bigger market than most of those places. We have 8 million people within an hours drive. The only one of those with a bigger population within an hour might be Houston.

I agree.

The issue for the NHL is that we already pay attention to it, whether it's the Leafs or Canadiens or what have you. There's little net new money in putting a team here, regardless of how it would succeed on a balance sheet in terms of attendance and sponsorship.

Until The Count and the ownership realize their dreams re: the American market are not realistic, Hamilton is a no go.

Correction...Heritage Classic Leafs v Sabres in March...that one

At this point, there is no way Hamilton or Quebec get teams until the NHL goes to 36. The league is still incredibly stable despite the Coyotes situation (which is on a good track right now with Tempe supporting the new arena proposal), so relocation isn’t in the cards for the foreseeable future. Expansion past 32 seems unlikely to happen in the near future, but NFL is already reportedly looking at expanding to 40. The NFL has always been ahead of the curve when it comes to expansion, so if they expand again, the other pro leagues will eventually follow afterward.

Quebec and Hamilton are probably the two strongest expansion candidates in the east at this point. Both are small but could easily support a team since there is little competition regionally. Hamilton is hybrid Leafs/Sabres territory but there is a big population to draw from in the area, especially with the SW Ontario market where there is no real competition.

The Rock lacrosse team promises it will return to Hamilton after FirstOntario Centre renovations, Steve Milton writes.

https://www.thespec.com/sports/lacro...-saturday.html

I would love to see The Rock play in London for those couple seasons. But it's probably just too far from Hamilton. Budweiser Gardens is usually available Saturdays as the Knights play at lot of Friday and Sunday games. Considering NLL isn't a big schedule, they could make it work, same as any of the other OHL arenas being talked about.

Now that the Honeybadgers have moved and with The Rock and Bulldogs seasons ending in May maybe construction can start sooner than the fall, say June?

That would be nice. Rip the band-aid off, get started. Summer is a big concert season though.

I don't think this is the case. I believe Bettman told Tempe council the team would sign such an assurance if the arena deal passes. But it's not his deal to sign, it's the team, and Tempe still has to have a referendum in 5 or 6 months before they can approve the new arena. I also don't recall anywhere, other than wishful thinking on this forum, that an NHL team had anything to do with plans to renovate the FOC.

Probably discussed in multiple iterations of this discussion, but Hamilton had the chance when Balsillie tried multiple times to buy a team (Penguins, Predators and the closest was the Coyotes, move them to Hamilton and renovate Copps (which was built to be compartmentalized/reno'd). Of course he got too enthusiastic and pissed off the Count.

It's never going to happen unless a team moves here and as mentioned the Count would strongly encourage all those American destinations over QC (then Hamilton). The Sabres and Leafs will continually impose their will on blocking Hamilton regardless of population draw especially in SW Ontario that would love to have a team. Honestly our best bet would be to get the Sabres. No one cares about them and they've been going in the right direction finally over the last two years. Their arena feels dated even though it's a mid-90s vintage. There's no demand to build a new one and they could be low hanging fruit. The only time the building is full is if the Leafs or Habs play there.

As for other teams and events, they will come regardless because of opportunity cost. The new FOC will draw lots of events because of the rental cost of Scotiabank Arena and there's no real secondary options for larger events. FOC also provides a secondary date for a large band as well. It's going to be very nice and OVG's going to pour a ton of money into this because they have a vested interested via Spectra.