Ah, geez... I forgot all about that render.... to which I responded to at the time of the posting. Based on the render, it could look ok or horrible - depending how it's done. I don't think it looking great will be on the table unfortunately. But I'll settle for "ok" as it'll be a huge improvement over ugly.

I'm actually more concerned about the exterior than the interior. The interior can be improved upon aesthetically and functionally, but the most noticeable difference will be the exterior as it would improve the look of the downtown core.

I would not be too concerned with the renderings. They are just conceptual drawings for presentation purposes and they are not gospel. When they get the keys to the place, then the fun in designing comes into play and we may see something totally different. Tastes change. Ideas change. Trends change. Cost change. Do they build to a budget or do the budget to the build? Only time will tell. We still have not seen the agreement!

As to making it work, there is a lot wasted space inside and out at Copp's. They could add a third and fourth floor around the outside. They can bring square off the 3 corners. Get the offices out of the front and make that area a food and beverage areas. When I was with the Bulldogs a number of years ago, I got to go to Winnipeg's new arena. They had restaurants and take-out food places around the outside of the ground level. They were open to the public during non-event times and closed to the outside a few hours before an event and then they were open to the arena side for the event.

Also there is a whole level in the building that is closed to the public that is not being used. It was reserved for offices for a NHL team.

When Carmen's took over almost everything there, people suggested they would not make it work or make money. After a number of years of not losing money, they are so pleased with the place, they are taking everything over.

I'm sure lots of people might know this, but for some who do not, Copps was designed for future renovations, so there might be some cost synergies versus major re-design. Either way, $50M seems a bit low for all those renovations unless they're dollarama style.

This CBC article from yesterday has some details about the renovations and additions.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamil...ium%3Dsharebar

I definitely thought that also right away.

Carmen's has only managed the Convention Centre, hence Hamilton Convention Centre by Carmen's.

The bulk of the former HECFI facilities (i.e. The Studio, First Ontario Concert Hall, First Ontario Centre) have been managed and operated by Spectra/Core Entertainment/Live Nation. Those operations have still received operational and capital subsidies from the City.

It will be interesting to see what things look like when details around what was previously described as a 99-year lease emerge. The City, which is historically prone to own-goals, may write a can't fail contract full of loopholes, subsidies, and the like (see the stadium deal, which ceded virtually everything to the seasonal tenant), and HUPEG will have to sweeten the pot for Live Nation, or they'll get frozen out of the events market and the cornerstone facility of this venture will get $50m in capital improvements to serve as little more than a home venue for amateur sports clubs.

Perhaps just some history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FirstOntario_Centre

Sidenote :
I like the fact that this project and the LRT have been hot topics for the past few years, and now at about the same time, they both seem to be on their way in a positive and welcomed fashion.

When it comes to LRT it depends on who at council you're taking to I guess lol.

The longer I live in Hamilton, the more I think there really should have been a stop at Bay St though. James and Queen make sense, James especially, and Queen simply as a middle stop, despite nothing of note being nearby, maybe Hess and George St, but Bay really makes sense considering the new density, and First Ontario Centre. I mean the LRT literally won't stop in the middle of the entertainment district. The closest stop would be James, and you'll have to walk 5 - 10 minutes to the stadium or convention centre.

I can't believe that the city passed on a station at Bay St, given the potential FOC crowds, plus nearby city and federal government offices, plus one end of Jackson Square, yet they decided that they need a stop in the International Village.

I still contend that the politicians don't want a station that close to City Hall because they would be expected to use transit themselves.

I do kind of get skipping it as it is only 400 metres from James, which is a very tight stop spacing, but I think the densities are high enough to support it. Especially since there is a stop at Mary - a Bay St stop would be more useful than the Mary stop IMO.

Yeah that actually makes more sense for sure.

In addition, most of our Hotels downtown are around Bay Street - It would make a lot of sense. Councilor Farr was pushing for a stop at Bay Street a few years back: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamil...stop-1.4045216

I think the rationale of skipping the stop at Bay is because the James stop will probably be on the West side of James closer to MacNab and theoretically if you want to get from Bay to James, you can just walk through Jackson Square or vice versa. It is supposed to be a rapid transit line, after all. I kinda feel like they should just name that stop "Downtown Core" or something instead of James since there are so many different transit connections and destinations in the immediate area that aren't even on James Street.

From the Environmental assessment plates, it shows the James St stop on the east of James, against Gore Park travelling east. Which means yet another reconfiguration of Gore to directly connect to the station may be imminent. The westbound track station will be on the west side of James.

https://i.imgur.com/KIJlfz4h.jpg

Though unrelated, this plan shows King West as 2 ways again, which is quite pleasing.

with one way sections, westerly through Gore park and easterly through the international village. King street will not be a car thoroughfare anymore

King St W was supposed to go two-way from Dundurn to James in 2010. However, council delayed it because of the B-Line LRT.

This is yet another example of how the City will be saving money on infrastructure upgrades. King St West upgrade is badly needed; it'll be about 15 years overdue.

I think the price tag for King St W was around $10 million in 2010.

That was pretty much the plan the entire time I thought. Majority of King St where there is space will be 2 way. To me it actually makes more sense to be one way if it meant that cars can actually use the entirety of the road.

In its current configuration in the plan, King St becomes an essentially useless road to automobiles for the majority of it's length.

From the plans I scowered yonks ago, King St. was just one lade wide for a lot of the length. Though that'll functionally be a bus lane unless council gets it's collective head out of it's collective ass and discuss converting Main St. back 2 ways.

The 1 westbound lane will be sort of useful in that it’s pretty consistent in length, but it’ll be so low capacity that it’ll be pretty congested.

They need to finish converting Wilson to a 2 way road, that should take a bit of pressure off. Main Street should be converted from Wellington/Victoria to Gage Park to mitigate it as well I think.

Cannon is going to be a lot busier soon too.

I live in Stoney creek, usually I take King to drive downtown, but after this I’ll probably go down to the QEW and use Burlington street instead. The two are already basically a wash time wise, but I use King St as it’s more direct and I burn less gas.

Traffic will do funny things like that and spread around too.

The one spot I see problems with is accessing the 403 from downtown - many will shift to York St if they are heading to Burlington or Waterdown but if you are going up the mountain the only real alternative is to use York/Dundurn or fight your way along the 1 lane king street. That’ll probably be pretty problematic.

I think stops on the west side of MacNab and at Walnut would be ideal if this were simply a cross-city corridor... but the lack of a direct connection with the Hunter St. GO Centre complicates things (and the need to run connector buses up James to the West Harbour station). So James/Gore has to be included.

But given the likelihood of more people getting off and on at any of the downtown stops (International Village, James, Queen) I really don't see a problem adding one at Bay. It's just a matter of cost really. The demand will be there with FOC and all the new development.

The time added to a crosstown trip won't be that much. And this service, IMO, is more about capacity than speed -- mass transit rather than rapid.

We live west of downtown, and tend to use a variety of routes if going to/from the east end (my parents live there).

I tend to avoid King going westbound, not for any particular reason but it can be a rougher ride downtown... especially across those concrete crosswalks. We'll use Main when heading east.

But we'll often use Burlington St. to/from Wellington or James, or Cannon/Wilson, or follow Maplewood-Delaware-Stinson-Hunter, and sometimes just cut across using the Sherman Access and Charlton (lovely views, few stops)

There are PLENTY of options. But I expect that the hand-wringing over operational costs will morph into hand-wringing over routes for E-W traffic in the lower city, and especially regarding upper city residents and their access to the 403 and QEW/RHVP.

The perfect solution will be to convert Main to two way traffic along with all other east west routes in the lower city

I mean, more people using Burlington St is great news in my mind. Burlington street is heavily underutilized at the current time.

I bet a lot of the traffic just diverts around the downtown. Many people will shift away from using the downtown as a thoroughfare and stay on the ring highway system. May create justification to widen the LINC.

Exactly this. Eliminate all the one-ways downtown, and you've opened up a bunch of potential traffic corridors.

I always just assumed making main two-way would happen once the LRT went in on King.... I guess that isn't part of the plan.

I do wonder what they’d do with Main’s odd lane number if they turn it two way? I suppose the main options are: boulevard(/turning lanes in places?); bike lines; wider sidewalks; or one of those set ups where the middle lane changes direction depending on the time of day.

The latter seems the most car-focused, but also hard to implement on such a long stretch of road?

Yeah I would expect something like Jarvis in Toronto, with signals. Or yeah, central lane can just be a planter/boulevard with turning lanes in some places, like University Avenue in Toronto.

Our city council is not very imaginative....

Add some boulevards and soften the street scape ...flowers ...trees..pedestrian friendly crossings... the street will come alive again

Exactly, some trees lining Main would do wonders. We have a dysfunctional city council unfortunately.

Just another news article on First Ontario.

https://www.insauga.com/master-agree...-precinct-plan

The lanes on Main are undersized. Vehicles that are the max allowable width (like buses and trucks) literally can't fit both mirrors between the white lines in many sections. As it will be the only truck route across the lower city, and might still support a local bus service, the best solution is to make four proper-width lanes. It would certainly slow traffic down.

https://www.hamilton.ca/government-i...ement-approved

Construction starts fall 2022 on the FirstOntario Centre. Takes 2 years.

3 sites are slated for residential development - 191 York, the York St Parkade, and 14 Vine St (surface lot behind the York St. Parkade).

I wonder how the residential development will play out.

I can’t wait to see that building at 191 York, this part of town is such a wasteland :cheers:

Sounds pretty good, especially those residential towers ( 191 York, the York St Parkade, and 14 Vine St) utilizing some unused space and adding density around the new city centre.

Is the York street Parkade being demolished?

Looks to be that way. They might incorporate another parkade into the new building, though.

I bet that they add even more parking than is already there, especially if they include the municipal lots next door. There's also an "entryway" driveway facing Vine that is a massive waste of space. I'll be sad to see the multi-coloured elevator hallway from outside though.

With this, City Centre redevelopment (if it happens) and a few other project nearby Hamilton's downtown will essentially be transformed yet again like Jackson Square did, but without the removal of block upon block of dense historical buildings, and without the suburbanization of the downtown. I'm glad Hamilton's new renewal is urban, and in the midst of urban demand rather than urban flight.

Interesting. I thought the original plan was to add residential towers to the block with the convention centre and concert hall, but it's much better to see underutilized properties used for that instead (or "in addition to" if that plan is still in the works)

Hopefully Andlauer maintains his patience and works with HUPEG through the renos.

This is a very interesting move. Looks like the old downtown property tax incentives is getting a makeover and used for the new precinct.

To be fair, "no monetary contribution from the City" technically does not preclude other concessions (e.g. tax breaks, waived licensing and development fees, the in-kind value of real estate):

Quote:

As part of the agreement, the City will be transacting the following City-owned properties to the Precinct Group for the purpose of redevelopment: York Boulevard Parkade Surface parking lot located at 14 Vine Street 191 York Boulevard The City’s contribution to this agreement is limited to City owned lands in the downtown core, and a new incentive program called the “Downtown Entertainment Precinct Advancement Program”. .... The “Downtown Entertainment Precinct Advancement Program” is to be a tax increment-based program. Under the program: Grants are provided relative to the actual increase in municipal property taxes that are generated as a result of an improvement and/or development undertaken on a property. Grants are provided over a maximum term of 30 annual payments and subject to City Council approval. Additional details on the “Downtown Entertainment Precinct Advancement Program” will be provided in a public staff report at the July 6, 2021 Planning Committee meeting.

Scooping those two parking lots means that they've effectively been granted half of the property bounded by York, Cannon, James and MacNab.

Good to see that Community Living Hamilton is being incorporated into the 191 York component.

Agree on the use and densification of the various lots , although outside of the parkade , not particularly strategic .... or perhaps I'm not seeing the vision. I am hoping that the redevelopment of Hamilton City Centre is still somewhat tied to this development , pretty certain that that one could easily incorporate all if not more underground parking (and/or second and third level parking) to offset.

There are plans and then there are aspirations. Stoney Creek News, February 6, 2013:

Part of the Carmen’s Group bid for operating HCC was to build a 440-room hotel and condominium.

“We are committed to hotel developments in Hamilton,” Mercanti said.

In all seriousness, per CBC Hamilton, "HUPEG originally suggested keeping FirstOntario's seating capacity, and relocating the convention centre to a part of Hamilton City Centre", which was under discussion for an unrelated $700m redevelopment proposal.

City of Hamilton: In addition to the comprehensive arena transformation, the Precinct Group’s plan includes over $12.5 million in capital upgrades, expansion and aesthetic enhancements to the existing Hamilton Convention Centre and Concert Hall, as well as a one-time $2 million contribution to the Art Gallery of Hamilton.

Ernst & Young estimated that the HCC and FO Concert Hall would need $6.6 million in capital repairs, so the impact of a $12.5m investment in those two facilities is hard to gauge. (When DPAi partnered on the Farmers Market/Library revamp, that was a $13 million budget, or $16 million after accounting for a decade of inflation).

HUPEG/Precinct Group has also floated the idea of developing a complex that would house the Art Gallery of Hamilton, which seems like a prestigious but expensive and technically demanding tenant: Since they wrapped their $15M Bruce Kuwabara facelift, the AGH has been kicking around gallery expansions on the order of $30m-$50m, and the current site is outside the current facility agreement. (It's encouraging that they're keeping that element in mind, but the $2 million contribution could also be simple acknowledgement of impact, as construction staging on the Summers Lane-fronting facilities could make AGH access a massive headache for the duration of that build, denting visitation and revenues.)


That's just because of the lack of substantive detail. It'll probably all come into focus with time.

Regarding the transacted properties:

• The City’s Parking Master Plan will provide direction on future parking operations in relation to this agreement and the Precinct Group will work with city staff to replace a portion of the public parking capacity at the York Boulevard Parkade and 14 Vine Street.

• The Precinct Group and city staff will continue to work with Community Living Hamilton at 191 York Boulevard. The Precinct Group has committed to ensuring that Community Living Hamilton’s on-going operational requirements are addressed in any new development on this site.

So it's not clear as yet what changes the City has in mind for these properties.

That's particularly true of the two half-block lots that together make up ~930 parking spaces with $1m-$2m in annual earning potential for the municipality.

There's also this tantalizing wisp, though:

A long-term ambition of transforming the area into a Distillery District-inspired area, with enhanced pedestrian capabilities and a complete live-work-play experience.


Is the Vine/MacNab area something they would have in mind for this element? Seems possible, and the historic tenants of that area — Coppley, GS Dunn — could help brand that notion.

Again, hopefully with time the scope of the plan comes into crisp focus.

so I was looking on google around the vine area and happened to go too far and ended up on james st - apparently more pediments have fallen off a building - this time it was the crappy remnants of the building beside the recently refurbished part..

https://i.imgur.com/jqSz4NG.png

Apparently the owner would not sell that end unit, the people that redid the rest of the building wanted to do all of it.

yes I am aware - sad to see it further deteriorating though..

Looks so awful, and it's a mish mash of textures. That's a lost opportunity for restoration.

This happened a while back. They've been renovating the interior to rent out, and seem to slowly be working on the exterior. The Olivia Hair Cuts actually looks pretty decent now, but the rest is blegh. I'm not sure how far they plan to restore the exterior, but it seems to me like it won't be to the extent of the buildings to the north.

Unfortunate, but so is the kitty corner building to this. Buildings left to rot with owners that could care less for some reason. There was a house on our old street that was vacant for 20 years and we spoke to the owners when they finally decided to sell, and they were just a normal family that had held on to this property for 20 years without any plans for it. I'll never fully understand why people don't just sell and cash out from these apparently unwanted buildings.

Commercial tenancies are amazing too if the building is paid off. Tenant pays for nearly everything from inside renovations, to property taxes. The landlord has way more power as well. I don't get it, I really don't.

Same thing with the old theatre property behind the international village. The owner is just an old couple from Toronto. My coworker has talked to him a couple times when the husband comes to mow the lawn, probably in his 60s or 70s. Sell and retire man.

https://images.thestar.com/ZtqL0AJZD...rendering1.jpg

How a renovated FirstOntario Centre might look
(Hamilton Spectator, Scott Radley, June 24 2021)

A couple weeks after the city agreed to a deal with a local consortium to renovate the downtown entertainment venues, we’re now getting more of an idea of what an updated FirstOntario Centre could look like.

If the early plans come to fruition, the building is going to be essentially unrecognizable from the arena that opened in 1985 and has recently been described as tired.

“It’s like someone handing you a blank canvas and saying, ‘Here, paint your perfect picture,’” says Jasper Kujavsky, a partner with the Hamilton Urban Precinct Entertainment Group (HUPEG) and director of the arena renovation project. “But you don’t have to build it out. It’s already there.”

Kujavsky’s dream is to use the arena as a launching point to turn the corner of York Boulevard and Bay Street into a destination that needs neither the Boulevard nor the Street when you say it. Just York and Bay.

That’s fancy talk that means the York Boulevard side of the arena is going to get the most significant part of the makeover.

The interior stairs that currently run along that side of the building that deposit fans from the concourse onto York after events will be removed. Restaurants and shops will then be created in that space and extend the full length of the arena.

“The entire north side is going to be built out as new retail space and a significant portion of it will be open 24-7,” he says. “It’s part of the whole York and Bay District concept, the precinct concept, that we want to build.”

The idea would be that when the arena isn’t being used, these businesses will be open to the street. When there is an event, they’ll be accessible from inside and could allow access right into the seating area.

Above them, the concourse will be extended out to the wall. And the existing restaurant — The Lounge — that’s currently tucked away and easy to miss will be opened up.

https://images.thestar.com/PDAti_09b...rendering3.jpg

Walk along the concourse to the Bay Street end of the rink (by the elevators) and there will be an open party zone overlooking the rink like the Flight Deck at Rogers Centre or the Stipley Bar at Tim Hortons Field.

A few more steps and down a level and you’ll hit the main entrance that will still be off Bay.

“It’ll be jazzed up,” Kujavsky says.

In the basement, there’s a thought that the dressing rooms could be moved from the south side to the north side where there’s currently wide open convention space that would allow for bigger team facilities. That would create usable public space on the south side or possibly even better rooms for visiting acts.

Meanwhile, there are parts of the arena that have been hidden from public view almost since the day it opened, including a street-level concourse that wraps around most of the building and is used primarily as storage. The plan is for it all to be back in play.

“Thousands of square feet of unused space just waiting to be activated,” he says. “Most people have never been there.”

https://images.thestar.com/M3ESwHfpR...rendering2.jpg

On top of everything else, the lower bowl will be redone and a new curtain system will be installed above that should look vastly better than the hanging black drapes that currently block off the upper level when it’s not needed. And a large video screen outside at York and Bay could create a smaller version of Jurassic Park in Toronto.

Of course, this is still in the planning stage and there remain plenty of unknowns. Among them, how many private boxes will be needed and where they’ll be located. Not to mention how much this will all cost. It sounds expensive.

The consortium told the city it would spend around $50 million on the arena. Kujavsky says he hopes that’s just a starting point.

“What we’ve promised the city is a minimum and clearly we’re going to deliver that,” he says. “We want to do more.”

Back in 2016, before he was part of HUPEG, Kujavsky commissioned studies of the arena for possible renovations. One of those said a redo of the lower bowl and some other improvements would cost $68 million [$74 million adjusted to 2021 CAD]. His ideal plan would go a little beyond what was listed in that outline but a budget has not yet been finalized.

Because time has passed, the cost would be higher today so they’d have to build in financial “escalators” to account for inflation.

Ah yes, escalators. Glad he mentioned that. The city just spent more than $4 million of tax dollars replacing a number that had been broken for years as well as putting in a new elevator. What happens to them?

“The escalators stay,” he laughs. “We’re building around them.”

A few details about what's planned via The Spec... Damn, Thistleclub beat me to it. :cheers:
https://www.thespec.com/news/hamilto...ight-look.html

Summary:
- York Blvd side to have the most significant changes -- interior stairs removed, restaurants and shops extending the full length of the arena. They will be open to the street when the arena isn't in use; during events they’ll be accessible from inside with possible access right into the seating area.
- Above that the concourse will be extended out to the wall.
- Existing restaurant "The Lounge" will be opened up.
- Bay Street side of the concourse will be an open party zone overlooking the rink like Rogers Centre's Flight Deck or The Stipley at THF.
- Main entrance still off Bay, but "jazzed up.”
- Basement dressing rooms may move from the south side to the north, expanded into the existing convention space; public space or more dressing rooms on the south side.
- Currently hidden street-level concourse that wraps around most of the building, used as storage, to be opened up for public use.
- Lower bowl will be redone.
- New curtain system for upper level.
- Large video screen outside at York and Bay could create a smaller version of Jurassic Park in Toronto.
- Hope is that $50M will be a minimum spend, but previous studies (2016) put the cost of a redone lower bowl and other improvements at $68M.

$50M seems a little light for all the interior and exterior work they are proposing. Sounds like more of a $100M job.