These are all great attitudes but who is going to front the bill for a $300 M to $500 M facility. Is there a business plan that can be made to recoup that money? I hope there is, just wouldnt bet on it. The realist in me based on what I have seen from major players says we’re going smaller than FOC. Hope im proven wrong.

THIS is the business case to keep an NHL size arena! http://www.coreentertainment.ca/news...r-ranking-2018

58th BUSIEST IN THE WORLD 4th IN CANADA! Let that sink in...

We lose the current capacity and we lose the big AAA concerts and events that bring people to our city's downtown hotels and restaurants! The city would cut off one of their best tourist draws and revenue generators!

Were also the only city that ever has mega acts such as BTS, Garth Brooks & Britney Spears perform 3 or 4 sold out shows in a row. No other city not Toronto or New York can ever claim that! What that does for our city is phenomenal!

It would be asinine to move the arena and or especially make it smaller!

Thats not a business case. Thats a listing of some big acts and how awesome it is for our city. A 10k arena would still bring awesome events to our city and downtown.

The arena barely breaks even now for global spectrum even with a sizeable annual operatinng subsidy from the city. Global spectrumcurrently makes a bit of money, the city loses money. If you build/ renovate an nhl new arena you have debt repayments to the tune of $300 -500million. The operations would be a massive money loser based on the current formula.

And that number you quoted is for concerts and events excluding the primary tennant. Its not the 4th busiest arena in canada. The 7 nhl arenas are ahead of it if you include the main tennant.

Again what is the business case for either the city or private company to sink 300 to 500 million into a new facility. They arent going to do it unless they can make money off of it. Its great that it gets some big shows, but is it profitable? Right now its not and thats before you even add repaying hundreds of millions of debt.

For refernce attached is documentation confirming the city subsidizes operations at the arena to the tune of $2.5M. This means that despite all the great acts you posted above and the bulldogs, the arena loses $2.5M a year.

https://pub-hamilton.escribemeetings...umentId=177081

By mid-year. 86th by year end (fifth in Canada).

Still up from 2017, but the business is cyclical (and this is solely based on ticket sales of live events and concerts).

10-Year Challenge:

In 2018, the FOC box office sold 201K tickets to concerts & family shows.
In 2009, the Copps box office sold 210K tickets to concerts & family shows.

FWIW, Spectra also manages London's Budweiser Gardens, which is about half the capacity of FOC, yet ranked 107th on Pollstar's 2018 chart (FOC was 106th in 2017). Here's the Spectra case study.

For me my dream proposal would be:

FirstOntario places becomes Hamilton's new flexible Convention Centre with extensive renovation.
Current Convention Centre sold to a developer to include retail and mixed income condos (sells out right away because of the transit terminal)
MacDonald high school property is the site of the new arena, with 15,000 seats with ability to expand to 20,000 or more to meet NHL standards.

That would be great if it happened. I know carmens was eyeing that sir john A land for an entertainment precinct. Heard the public board may not want to sell though.

It seems the trend of nhl Arenas has gone towards the 17 to 18k range with more luxury options. Keep the ticket scarcity and prices up.

For example Ottawa has cut Capacity from close to 20k to under 18k. Winnipeg of course is at 15k. Rogers place in Edmonton is at 18.5k. Rinks built in the last 10 years in pittsburgh, jersey, vegas are in the 17k to 18k range(save for detroit). New arenas being built for seattle and the islanders are in between 17 and 18k.

Of course im not getting my hopes up that an nhl team comes to hamilton. Bettman has made clear he isnt interested and quebec city cant even get a team with a beautiful new arena and deep pocketed potential ownership.

We should invent a new sport.

I have some skepticism towards this. First gets a fair amount of shows because Scotiabank arena has the Leafs and Raptors as major tenants and is incredibly busy during the winter months and can rarely accommodate multi-night events like BTS.

I think one could make a business case to be made for repairs amortized over a number of years. If I remember correctly, the city was losing more money during the tale end of the HECFI days back then they are losing now so the city has spent more money before. Plus the city seems willing to make the business case for putting money into Juno, CCMA and Grey Cup bids for what are one-off events, so the city putting some money each year towards upkeep of First Ontario doesn't seem outlandish.

I would vote in favour of enhanced upkeep of the existing arena.

A 10,000 seat arena is just not the right size for Hamilton:

- It would still bring in a number of shows, but it would also certainly take Hamilton out of consideration for many, many large-scale events.
- It would also be arguably too large for an OHL team or even an AHL team, so it would hardly be a right-sizing for those groups.

A 5k to 6k arena is probably the proper size for the OHL, but I really hope that that sized building is not on the table.

A side note is that the current video scoreboard should be replaced regardless. It is of extremely poor quality/resolution and I am not sure if any other OHL arenas (much less NHL) have anything so lacking.

Councillors seem to be hinting the city should not be in the business of entertainment facilties. Some would like to see the private sector take over. Council seems to be prioritizing roads transit and social housing. I think they fear the backlash from constituents if their property taxes go up say $200-$300 a year to pay for an entertainment facility instead of core assets. This brings up a larger question, is a professional enterainment facility something tax payers should be subsidizing? Especially when our community centres, transit network, social housing stock and road network are in need of hundreds of millions in investment. An interesting question. There are pros and cons to both public ownership and private ownership.

Also yes the scoreboard needs replacing. That board was paid for by the bulldogs owner. Hed probably pay for a new one but hes waiting to see what the plan is for the new arena. If hes gunna put tens of millions into a new arena, no need sinking money into the current venue. I think the city is holding off on the $50 million in maintenance(not even upgrades) repairs needed on the arena until they know if theyre keeping it or building new. Hopefully the ice piping holds up so the bulldogs arent displaced! Sounds like the place needs more than a couple mil a year.

From KPMG’s 2011 facility audit:

The size and scale of Copps Coliseum is vastly disproportionate to the revenue potential from permanent (Bulldogs) and transient (entertainment) users. Due to its high-fixed cost structure, the venue's operating costs reflect building size, not its throughput. While the Bulldogs have been a tenant for numerous years, both attendance and ticket pricing at Bulldogs games is some 20% lower than the AHL average…

Since its opening in 1985, the attraction of an NHL team to Hamilton has been a primary goal of Copps Coliseum management. However, opinions vary widely on both the likelihood of this occurring and the impact on the current hockey tenant, the AHL's Hamilton Bulldogs. Bulldog attendance is in the lower third of the overall league (while playing in an arena with the second largest seating capacity).…

The majority of AHL and OHL arenas in Canada are between 5,000 and 9,000 seats and therefore more appropriately sized for their host communities. In addition to hockey, these arenas are used for a variety of other events including ice rental (tournaments, charity events, corporate groups). Profitability is most often a function of the hockey team attendance.

Burlington Post, Jan 5 2011:

“If somebody approaches me and says we have a 9,000-seat building and would like an anchor tenant, of course I’d consider it,” says team owner Michael Andlauer.…

Andlauer says he actually looked at the site a couple years ago when he was exploring the idea of building an arena in Burlington. With its proximity to the highway and the GO station, he calls it a “site of the future.”

Further, he says moving the team there wouldn’t go against his commitment to keep the team in the Hamilton area.

Hamilton Spectator, Jan 20 2015:

Burlington business owner Tim Wilson says he's aware of an out-of-town buyer with deep pockets — he only knows the man's first name — who likes the city as a hockey market and is interested in bringing a major junior team there. Meanwhile, he says a local builder he wouldn't name, but knows personally, is ready to begin work on a new 7,500 to 9,000-seat arena, financed entirely with private money.

Hamilton Spectator, Nov 27 2017:

The owner of the Hamilton Bulldogs says it's time for this city to build a new arena to replace the antiquated FirstOntario Centre. And he's ready to put his money where his vision is to make that happen.…

While Mayor Fred Eisenberger sounds decidedly noncommittal about getting involved in any project of this scale, he says the city is willing to listen.

Andlauer, a part-owner of the Montreal Canadiens who's owned the local team for nearly 15 years and has kept it in the FirstOntario Centre, says he'd like to see a new 5,000-10,000-seat facility built somewhere within the city. He expects it would cost between $60 million and $100 million, depending on size and amenities.

I imagine that all but a handful of FOC bookings would be viable in a venue half its capacity. It would be a mistake to think that's not in the cards.

No new cash proposed for FirstOntario Centre fixes
(Hamilton Spectator, Teri Pekoskie, Jan 22 2019)

The city plans to assess the antifreeze lines under the ice at FirstOntario Centre in the coming off-season, but it still hasn't committed any cash to replace them.

In a tweet Monday, Mayor Fred Eisenberger confirmed that facilities staff believe it is "very unlikely" the lines will fail catastrophically — an event that would cause the ice to deteriorate and force the main tenant at the downtown rink, the Hamilton Bulldogs, to sniff out an alternate home.

Instead, the lines are subject to "gradual decline," he wrote, and a "thorough infrared under ice surface assessment" will take place at the end of the 2018-19 campaign. "Currently the ice surface is deemed to remain very good," he added.

In a separate tweet, Eisenberger also wrote that he believes "we may need to effect a repair sooner rather than later" given the age of the 33-year-old building. He said escalators and elevators in the facility will be fixed — which is something the city agreed to fund last year.

Council ratifies doing a study, with $200K in city $, to look at the future of Hamilton's downtown entertainment facilities (convention centre, FirstOntario Centre, FO Concert Hall). That includes whether they should be relocated, or in a cluster. Report back this summer

https://twitter.com/SamCraggsCBC

Another massive K-pop group is coming to Firstontario Centre. Blackpink just announced the only Canadian date for their world tour will be in Hamilton...

https://i.imgur.com/nx6Wjv2.jpg
Blackpink World Tour - North American Dates by ygent_official, on Twitter

LOL at Toronto.... "Toronto K-pop fans are suffering an identity crisis following a devastating announcement: Blackpink is choosing to perform in Hamilton instead of the 6ix. "

https://www.blogto.com/music/2019/02...pink-hamilton/

Hmm, now they know how it feels.

Yeah, pretty much all the facilities on that tour are second-rate. It's the time of year ie between the NBA and the NHL, everything's basically fully booked. I guess we should keep our 17000-seat arena, hey?

I'd be for keeping a 17,000+ seat arena even if this wasn't happening. But hey, this is just another good reason, eh?

New York fans must be equally butthurt that they have to go to New Jersey for the show.

I think you mean new joisey :P