Was Don Mills the turning point in terms of suburbanization in Canada?

[Docere]

Of course suburbanization existed before Don Mills. But before that the suburbs really feel like the continuation of the interwar pattern of development. Don Mills was a "new town" type development, the streetcars never there, the first car-oriented area "built from scratch" so to speak. It set the pattern for what came later.

We often use "1945" as the cutoff but I wonder if ca. 1953 is really the first year of Canadian suburbia as we know it.

[urbandreamer]

North Vancouver's postwar bungalow hoods off Grand Boulevard predate Don Mills.

[Kilgore Trout]

Interesting question. It depends on the city. In many cases, suburban development was a natural extension of the existing urban form well into the 1950s and sometimes into the 1960s. It took awhile for Don Mills-style suburbia to catch on.

For example, Killarney, Vancouver was developed in the late 1950s, and it maintains the same kind of street grid and density as other, older areas:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/TztXab33JQxExEUS9

In Calgary, Rosscarrock was not developed until the late 1950s and it maintains a street grid with back alleys:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/LLQzkwAbihZqXDP37

Next door is Westgate, which developed just a few years later, but you can already start to see more Don Mills-style features in the planning:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/KmmduP7K3FqVX6Qk6

Montreal is an interesting case because you have examples of both Don Mills-style development and more urban typologies being built at exactly the same time.

Lakeside Heights, Pointe Claire, developed in the 1960s:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/pDvFh7VkyxHZtrbv7

Montreal North, also developed on greenfield land in the 1960s:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/FZAtYFtKo5uiL2y89

And then you have a very distinctive 1960s typology, which is triplexes developed on a car-oriented suburban street pattern. This is common in areas with strong Italian influence like St-Léonard, Anjou and LaSalle:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/aJTDPRPQEh9WTaZW8

[Docere]

For example, Killarney, Vancouver was developed in the late 1950s, and it maintains the same kind of street grid and density as other, older areas:

In the case of Van, the city limits in 1929 are still in place. But south of 41st wasn't fully built out until around 1960 or so I guess.

[Docere]

North Vancouver's postwar bungalow hoods off Grand Boulevard predate Don Mills.

And isn't Park Royal the oldest shopping mall in Canada?

[Docere]

Toronto's Lawrence Manor area is a good example of immediate postwar area that sort of represents a transition or the last extension urban form . Softee captured it well:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRkzlejQhKc

[niwell]

There are tons of gridded areas in Toronto that were built up after 1945 and while kinda ugly, retain the narrow lot presence of pre-war development. They have been referred to as “unplanned suburbs” in literature and generally represent areas that were platted out by a developer as early as the 1920s well outside the city and had individual houses developed independently. Often these areas lacked a lot of basic services at the time (sewers, municipal water treatment, etc).

Also have “wartime” housing clusters developed in the late 40s on more suburban street patterns with very small houses and big lots. This never really fulfilled the demand of the housing crisis at the time.

I see Don Mills as a very Toronto/Ontarian response to the massive demand for housing in a more egalitarian way than was occurring with contemporary developments in the US. Yeah there are a lot of SFHs but also clusters of apartments and a retail / institutional core with provisions for public transit. It was really cutting edge for the time, and even though we may cringe at the land usage / street layout now probably represents a better ideal for building real communities. In a lot of the ways it’s a far cry from new suburbs that may better fit an urban design pattern but are very car dependent and segregated by income and land usage.

[Coldrsx]

Westmount mall (1955) in Edmonton is a surprisingly good candidate.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EfvU-4xUcAAor-4?format=png&name=large
https://twitter.com/LouisPereira_/status/1295874076708241409

[WhipperSnapper]

AFAIK, Don Millls is the first master planned community in Toronto which was inspired by the success of smaller suburban subdivisions distinguished by modest bungalows from the post war catalog of house designs on the fringes of prewar Toronto.

I would call Don Mills the product from the early success of suburbanization spearheaded by the government through CMHC. The difference between pre and early post war are wider lots to allow each home a driveway

[Proof Sheet]

And then you have a very distinctive 1960s typology, which is triplexes developed on a car-oriented suburban street pattern. This is common in areas with strong Italian influence like St-Léonard, Anjou and LaSalle:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/aJTDPRPQEh9WTaZW8

Behold the 'Tempo'.

[SignalHillHiker]

Ours was Churchill Park, though we weren't part of Canada at the time.

https://i.postimg.cc/Hsr1wqsR/Screenshot-2023-12-27-120752.png

"Distance from the city" is hilarious by modern standards. It's literally connected to our first suburb, Georgestown, which is indistinguishable from and attached to the oldest residential neighbourhoods in the city. I could walk to Churchill Park in less than 10 minutes.

[Docere]

Interesting piece on Don Mills (I don't know if it's paywalled):

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/real-estate/the-man-behind-don-mills/article1004819/

An influence on Don Mills was not so much Levittown but the Eichler developments in California.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Eichler

* Levittown was very blue collar, while Don Mills was more marketed to the professional/young executive set.

[ssiguy]

Don Mills may have been the first truly master planned suburban development but you had to start somewhere. It was just a reflection of changing times that was effecting every advanced economy especially in NA/Aus. The only reason it didn't kills our downtowns unlike in Canada/Aus is that we didn't have the added impetus of fleeing the downtowns by white flight and taking their taxes and political influence with them.

[Gresto]

I thought it was common knowledge that Don Mills was the first suburb in Canada, if not North America.:shrug:

[Docere]

Unlike Toronto, where the city proper (at the time) was fully built out by 1930, Montreal which had a bigger land area still had some unbuilt areas at the end of WWII. Cote-des-Nieges and Snowdon weren't built up until the 1940s and 1950s. I wonder if CDN is the last truly "urban" neighborhood developed in North America, it has a very high density and there's nothing "suburban" about it really.

[manny_santos]

The first developments in postwar Byron, then outside London, was developed between 1945 and 1950. Some, though not all of the initial houses built there were bungalows.

https://www.lib.uwo.ca/madgic/projects/ldn_airphotos/1950/A12512_30.jpg (photo is upside down, so south is at the top)

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9551109,-81.3332733,3a,75y,143.42h,88.05t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sMxB2NLu9V3y-kJV-fCWnzA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

Unlike Don Mills, however, the initial development was grid-based, and I get the sense it was not "planned".

[SignalHillHiker]

Unlike Don Mills, however, the initial development was grid-based, and I get the sense it was not "planned".

Ours was the opposite - planned, but not grid-based. Churchill Park (completed 1942) was leafy streets and cul-de-sacs.

https://i.postimg.cc/SRrVWSFv/1.png

https://i.postimg.cc/cJpDWkBX/3.png

Of the surviving original buildings, the most common feature of the neighbourhood is the corner windows. Most have been renovated once or twice since the 40s, though, and there's even some infill with double-sized garages and the like.

https://i.postimg.cc/KjFJkKVT/2.png

[Kilgore Trout]

Unlike Toronto, where the city proper (at the time) was fully built out by 1930, Montreal which had a bigger land area still had some unbuilt areas at the end of WWII. Cote-des-Nieges and Snowdon weren't built up until the 1940s and 1950s. I wonder if CDN is the last truly "urban" neighborhood developed in North America, it has a very high density and there's nothing "suburban" about it really.

CDN is interesting because I would argue that it actually was a suburban neighbourhood, because the way it was built broke quite significantly with the traditional ways Montreal developed. Instead of piecemeal plexes built by individual property owners or small-time developers, you had larger developers that built huge blocks of freestanding apartment buildings and/or attached duplexes, all of which was more car-oriented than any older part of Montreal. Most of those apartment buildings have garages or parking areas which was unusual at the time. It just happened to be on a grid which is why it feels more urban today, and the density reflects a relative lack of zoning restrictions compared to other Canadian cities.

In a way it's similar to how many cities in Spain (or many other countries for that matter) are still developing today: you have mass-produced blocks of apartments right up to the edge of the city, on the other side of which are farm fields and old villages. CDN in the 1940s would have been similar.

[Docere]

I was incorrect about Park Royal being the first shopping mall. It was Norgate in Ville St. Laurent.

[Docere]

It would be interesting to see a map of the built-up area of Montreal Island in 1945.

[manny_santos]

I was incorrect about Park Royal being the first shopping mall. It was Norgate in Ville St. Laurent.

Were either of these malls like malls we know today, i.e. enclosed?

I’ve always known Wellington Square in London as the first (enclosed) mall in Canada.

[Architype]

I was incorrect about Park Royal being the first shopping mall. It was Norgate in Ville St. Laurent.


That's debatable, they were both opened the same year; Park Royal's opening date was September 1, 1950, Norgate Galleries was inaugurated on December 5, 1950, "Park Royal was Canada's first covered shopping mall" (Wikipedia).

[ScreamingViking]

I always thought there was one in Winnipeg that was the first indoor shopping mall. But I guess not.

Wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_shopping_malls_in_Canada) says Norgate was the first (1949) but Park Royal the first enclosed one (1950).

And even further back, the old Lister Block in Hamilton was the very first indoor "mall" (1852) but I don't think it was focused mainly on stores and shopping, but rather a variety of businesses.

There was a mall in Hamilton that opened in 1955 (the Greater Hamilton Shopping Centre) but it began as an outdoor one before being enclosed sometime later and being renamed The Centre Mall. It was demolished in the early 2000s and replaced with a "power centre" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Centre_on_Barton)... while I do a lot of my shopping there, as with all the other examples of this kind of Fortress of Retail-itude, pedestrian-oriented it is not.

[someone123]

There are a lot of local stories of firsts that are replicated across different cities. Often they will be qualified (first mall with air conditioning that opened on a Tuesday, etc.). I think they mostly popped up around the same time for the same reasons, with a huge number being built shortly after WW2. But the weren't necessarily patterned after one another even if one came after another.

Hampstead in London was built starting in the 1900's. I'm sure you can find the Australopithecus of indoor shopping malls from 1900-1930, something like an old shopping arcade but with surface parking around it. I think the cutting edge modern development played out around 1890-1910.

This looks anachronistic with a plan that could be from the 70's and cars from the 20's. You don't really get this from the various 50's malls or 40's subdivisions.
https://ggwash.org/images/posts/201402-110003.jpg
https://ggwash.org/view/33743/in-1931-a-parking-lot-in-cleveland-park-changed-how-washington-shopped

[Architype]

I always thought there was one in Winnipeg that was the first indoor shopping mall. But I guess not.

Wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_shopping_malls_in_Canada) says Norgate was the first (1949) but Park Royal the first enclosed one (1950).

And even further back, the old Lister Block in Hamilton was the very first indoor "mall" (1852) but I don't think it was focused mainly on stores and shopping, but rather a variety of businesses.

There was a mall in Hamilton that opened in 1955 (the Greater Hamilton Shopping Centre) but it began as an outdoor one before being enclosed sometime later and being renamed The Centre Mall. It was demolished in the early 2000s and replaced with a "power centre" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Centre_on_Barton)... while I do a lot of my shopping there, as with all the other examples of this kind of Fortress of Retail-itude, pedestrian-oriented it is not.

It's not clear from the Wikipedia article that Norgate was a covered mall, so that's a a strip mall.

This mall has an "L" plan, surrounding a large parking lot from which you can access the shops.

That's not how we define a mall these days. No true mall is a strip mall. ;)

[Docere]

CDN is interesting because I would argue that it actually was a suburban neighbourhood, because the way it was built broke quite significantly with the traditional ways Montreal developed. Instead of piecemeal plexes built by individual property owners or small-time developers, you had larger developers that built huge blocks of freestanding apartment buildings and/or attached duplexes, all of which was more car-oriented than any older part of Montreal. Most of those apartment buildings have garages or parking areas which was unusual at the time. It just happened to be on a grid which is why it feels more urban today, and the density reflects a relative lack of zoning restrictions compared to other Canadian cities.

In a way it's similar to how many cities in Spain (or many other countries for that matter) are still developing today: you have mass-produced blocks of apartments right up to the edge of the city, on the other side of which are farm fields and old villages. CDN in the 1940s would have been similar.

A previous post related to this:

https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9944837&postcount=30

[Architype]

Apparently BC's Park Royal even predates the oldest mall in the US, although more qualifiers may have been added.

Southdale Center is a shopping mall located in Edina, Minnesota, a suburb of the Twin Cities. It opened in 1956 and is both the first and the oldest fully enclosed, climate-controlled shopping mall in the United States.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southdale_Center

[ScreamingViking]

Reminded me somewhat of this (https://maps.app.goo.gl/smZLaEm5LxdiKgBM6), in Beamsville, ON, just because I recently drove past it. But there are plenty of modern-day examples.

Great find. :cheers:

This looks anachronistic with a plan that could be from the 70's and cars from the 20's. You don't really get this from the various 50's malls or 40's subdivisions.
https://ggwash.org/images/posts/201402-110003.jpg
https://ggwash.org/view/33743/in-1931-a-parking-lot-in-cleveland-park-changed-how-washington-shopped

[ScreamingViking]

It's not clear from the Wikipedia article that Norgate was a covered mall, so that's a a strip mall.

That's not how we define a mall these days. No true mall is a strip mall. ;)

I didn't follow through to the specific links to read the details. But yeah. :)

While malls and plazas and "power centres" tend to be most friendly to automobile-based trips, I'm not sure it's all that different for street-retail. Parking may be more of an adventure, but unless one lives within a short walk of a shopping street, I think many people still drive and I'd be very surprised if most businesses didn't rely on those patrons for a majority of their sales. The examples I know best are in the Hamilton-Burlington area, but when I lived in the west end of Toronto for a couple of years two decades ago it seemed to be the case as well (The Kingsway stretch of Bloor was closest, but it seemed evident in Bloor West Village as well)

[Docere]

Was Leaside the predecessor of Don Mills? It was kind of unusual. It was modelled on "garden city" principles. But the residential development was delayed for a generation and the Town of Leaside was mostly industrial. Residential development occurred in the 1940s, so kind of transitional from pre and post-war.

https://niche-canada.org/2014/05/06/an-unpredictable-path-to-the-suburbs-a-history-of-torontos-leaside-neighbourhood/

[ssiguy]

I don't know that London had Canada's first mall but the downtown Wellington Square was the very first downtown mall in NA. Richmond BC has Canada's first McDonald's opening in 1968 and London had the nation's second in 1970. First cable in Canada, first McChicken nuggets in NA, first ice coffee in Canada............probably more than any other city on the continent, London is a test market city and always has been including some of the first suburban developments.

Chances are that most of the food, services, products, and urban development you use have already been tested in London. There is almost no such thing as test marketing something to judge Canadian consumer taste without it already being tried in London. At least in English Canada, London is Canada 101 and if you can make it there then you can make it anywhere and if you can't make it there then you needn't bother trying anywhere else.

[MolsonExport]

Behold the 'Tempo'.

Yikes, exactly what scared the shit out of me when I clicked.

[MolsonExport]

Unlike Toronto, where the city proper (at the time) was fully built out by 1930, Montreal which had a bigger land area still had some unbuilt areas at the end of WWII. Cote-des-Nieges and Snowdon weren't built up until the 1940s and 1950s. I wonder if CDN is the last truly "urban" neighborhood developed in North America, it has a very high density and there's nothing "suburban" about it really.


Well, like the links posted demonstrated, there are many later examples of "urban" neighborhood developments, such as Montreal-Nord, and parts of Lasalle, Lachine, St. Leonard, etc.

[MolsonExport]

I was incorrect about Park Royal being the first shopping mall. It was Norgate in Ville St. Laurent.

http://www2.ville.montreal.qc.ca/arrondissements/sla/historique/en/intro/histvsl/terri/cartesinteractives/06ang/P0289_grand_2.gif
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/_AcUdTl7Aq-s/TEH65mQhFkI/AAAAAAAAT68/ZEQzrlj-0HA/w1200-h630-p-k-no-nu/03_Norgate+Grand+Opening+Dec+6+1950_Montreal+Gazette.jpg

here it is today:
https://www.google.com/maps/@45.5152843,-73.68425,3a,75y,23.68h,89.79t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRDKi32POWMIHtFRamoZEEQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en-US&entry=ttu

[MolsonExport]

It would be interesting to see a map of the built-up area of Montreal Island in 1945.

https://i.etsystatic.com/7432122/r/il/814e56/3140735107/il_1588xN.3140735107_63di.jpg

[Docere]

Well, like the links posted demonstrated, there are many later examples of "urban" neighborhood developments, such as Montreal-Nord, and parts of Lasalle, Lachine, St. Leonard, etc.

Population density:

Cote des Nieges 8,462 per sq km (21,917 per sq mile)
Park Extension 21,000 per sq km (55,000 per sq mile)
Montreal Nord 7,623 per sq km (19,743 per sq mile)
St. Leonard 5,893 per sq km (15,260 per sq mile)

[Docere]

Population of selected municipalities, 1941:

Verdun 67,349
Outremont 30,751
Westmount 26,047
Lachine 20,051
Town of Mount Royal 4,888
Montreal Ouest 3,474
Hampstead 1,974

All had at least 25% of their current or peak population by this time - I used that as a cut-off for "pre-war" suburb.

Off-island, there's also Saint Lambert which had a population of 6,417 in 1941.

[Kilgore Trout]

At this point I'm astonished Norgate has not been redeveloped. It's directly across the street from a metro station and suburban bus terminus, it's located in what has become quite a dense neighbourhood, and yet... there it is. Today a very ordinary-looking strip mall known most of all for having a parking lot managed by scam artists who will tow your car and try to extort money from you.

[Loco101]

I don't know that London had Canada's first mall but the downtown Wellington Square was the very first downtown mall in NA. Richmond BC has Canada's first McDonald's opening in 1968 and London had the nation's second in 1970. First cable in Canada, first McChicken nuggets in NA, first ice coffee in Canada............probably more than any other city on the continent, London is a test market city and always has been including some of the first suburban developments.

Chances are that most of the food, services, products, and urban development you use have already been tested in London. There is almost no such thing as test marketing something to judge Canadian consumer taste without it already being tried in London. At least in English Canada, London is Canada 101 and if you can make it there then you can make it anywhere and if you can't make it there then you needn't bother trying anywhere else.

London and Peterborough are often used as test markets for Ontario and sometimes for all of English-speaking Canada.

One big name, Tim Hortons does its test marketing across Canada. I've tried test products in a number of different cities, towns and provinces where some ended up becoming available chain-wide and others didn't. Northeastern ON locations tested the fruit quenchers and had them a year before they were available everywhere else.

[Loco101]

[/QUOTE] Reminded me somewhat of this (https://maps.app.goo.gl/smZLaEm5LxdiKgBM6), in Beamsville, ON, just because I recently drove past it. But there are plenty of modern-day examples. [/QUOTE]

Great find ScreamingViking.

PLEASE post this in the Ugly Canada thread!!!!

We have a tower to join the ranks of Clockzilla! Just look at that thing. TWO clocks staring at you!!

And what's located in that strip mall makes it even better:

-Right below the clock tower is a sushi restaurant sign in the shape of a pizza slice

-a Subway restaurant

-PC MPP Sam Oosterhoff's office. He's probably the furthest-right MPP in Ontario and he's 26 years old and was elected when he was 19. And this office was Tim Hudak's until he stepped down as PC leader. Proof is here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/HxkYzJRVxTCSYT229

[Docere]

Is it accurate to say "urban" type areas were still being built for the working classes in Montreal into the 1960s?

In Toronto, there doesn't really seem to be a class difference. In 1960, the working class suburbanites were moving to places like Downsview, while the middle and professional classes were moving to places like Don Mills. Downsview and Don Mills seem equally "suburban" to me.

[Kilgore Trout]

Absolutely. You had relatively dense housing being built well into the 1970s, sometimes just blocks from bungalows and more conventional suburban housing.

St-Michel, built 1957:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/AbhSPFECojeUwZ4h9

Not far away in St-Léonard, built 1964:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/wVZaYFnembaqFr2EA

Also in St-Léonard, built 1977:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/o1Dv2JVxqLimqF278



Another interesting set of examples here:

Montreal North, built 1957:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/KDEurJfQcfZaLaX19

Montreal North, built 1968:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/HruifJ5UXdhYa2t17

Montreal North, built 1971:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/RUBGyR1JGYobnwto9


At the time all of these places were suburbs of Montreal. St-Michel was annexed to Montreal in 1968, Montreal North and St-Léonard in 2000.

[Kilgore Trout]

Laval is also interesting in this regard. Here's a street corner of Chomedey. This block was developed in 1963:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/BsTD7Cqkx7GzsHM6A

Just a few blocks away, total bungalow belt suburbia, built in 1956:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/GPXKKm6R4Pi3Ghs38

Also in the same area, a street of small apartment buildings built in 1958. Definitely suburban, but somewhere in between the two previous examples:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/hgKTMVXXmDqi5JbH8

[MolsonExport]

At this point I'm astonished Norgate has not been redeveloped. It's directly across the street from a metro station and suburban bus terminus, it's located in what has become quite a dense neighbourhood, and yet... there it is. Today a very ordinary-looking strip mall known most of all for having a parking lot managed by scam artists who will tow your car and try to extort money from you.

Montreal has a surprisingly high number of high-profile spots (adjacent to metro stations, for example) which are underdeveloped. Norgate is a great example of this. And I hate those awful places that feature predatory towing companies. I was the victim of this myself a few years ago, on Christmas day, no less (in Oakville, Ontario).

[MolsonExport]

Laval is also interesting in this regard. Here's a street corner of Chomedey. This block was developed in 1963:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/BsTD7Cqkx7GzsHM6A

Just a few blocks away, total bungalow belt suburbia, built in 1956:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/GPXKKm6R4Pi3Ghs38

Also in the same area, a street of small apartment buildings built in 1958. Definitely suburban, but somewhere in between the two previous examples:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/hgKTMVXXmDqi5JbH8


That first link is quintessential inner-suburb Montreal. It could be Lasalle. It could be Verdun. It could be St. Leonard. Vincent de Paul...even some of the older parts of DDO and Pierrefonds have stretches of this building style.

[Docere]

Is Leaside urban or suburban?

It's certainly an early vintage than Don Mills (built up mostly in the 1940s), and on the old grid. But you can see elements of both.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7051167,-79.3749463,3a,75y,19.17h,99.17t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_4YBn5kYR3GUq15UxK_6ig!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.702194,-79.3700963,3a,75y,78.37h,85.36t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sd2gjKiWkTZ5XogwIR3slGw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7046153,-79.3672802,3a,75y,136.21h,95.53t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sR88_HMO4E7kouUXA18MrFw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.6996646,-79.3645574,3a,75y,229.13h,86.48t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sx5q8YGv0co7VjG12SkOCNg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3Dx5q8YGv0co7VjG12SkOCNg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D313.5937%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7119816,-79.3727445,3a,75y,91.36h,87.31t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sUeJcVE7EZQLxFvyMcLvxcA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DUeJcVE7EZQLxFvyMcLvxcA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D344.6147%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

[MonkeyRonin]

Is it accurate to say "urban" type areas were still being built for the working classes in Montreal into the 1960s?

In Toronto, there doesn't really seem to be a class difference. In 1960, the working class suburbanites were moving to places like Downsview, while the middle and professional classes were moving to places like Don Mills. Downsview and Don Mills seem equally "suburban" to me.


Both suburban, but there are definite form & density differences between the 1960s working/lower-middle class developments (predominantly semi-detached, and/or with smaller lots) and middle/upper class ones (larger, leafier lots).

Eg. western North York:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/ueBnKEvYvU27ifcm7
https://maps.app.goo.gl/Bmyk11zPKmDsdRVh7

Vs. eastern North York:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/t4mTr5UrsQZekf4UA
https://maps.app.goo.gl/iFa4ESRGAf5qfogU8

[Docere]

Strong east/west difference in terms of prevalence of detached housing

Detached house

Kirkland 87%
Beaconsfield 86%
Dollard-des-Ormeaux 57%
Hampstead 50%
Pointe Claire 50%
Dorval 46%
Town of Mount Royal 32%
Montreal-Est 21%
Cote St. Luc 14%
Saint Laurent riding/borough 11%
Bourassa riding (Montreal Nord) 7%
St. Leonard-St. Michel riding 5%

(CSL is lower than I expected)

[Docere]

Both suburban, but there are definite form & density differences between the 1960s working/lower-middle class developments (predominantly semi-detached, and/or with smaller lots) and middle/upper class ones (larger, leafier lots).

Eg. western North York:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/ueBnKEvYvU27ifcm7
https://maps.app.goo.gl/Bmyk11zPKmDsdRVh7

Vs. eastern North York:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/t4mTr5UrsQZekf4UA
https://maps.app.goo.gl/iFa4ESRGAf5qfogU8

Yes these images capture well the east/west split in North York or the contrast between the more working class "Downsview" and more middle class/upscale "Don Mills" typologies from that era.

[niwell]

For anyone interested in the types of Montreal developments post-war posted above I'd highly recommend this book: https://www.cca.qc.ca/en/events/34421/the-60s-montreal-thinks-big

There are lots of aerial pics showing full apartment neighbourhoods being built into the 60s adjacent to farmland. It's a wild juxtaposition we aren't really used to anymore.

Similarly there are black and white pics showing Toronto suburban highrises in the 60s at the edge of the city. Different form of urbanism but full neighbourhoods were built that contained a full gamut of housing typologies from scratch.

http://towerrenewal.com/wp-content/uploads/bathurst-green-belt-7.jpg

[Docere]

^ Good example of that of course is the Jane-Finch area (including York University). The area was rural in the 1950s. According to the 1961 census, the population of the area (all contained in one CT running between Dufferin and Highway 400 north of Sheppard) was about 1,000. By 1971, it was 50,000. A big university had opened and it was filled with high rises that were attracting new immigrants. It would have been quite a remarkable transformation to witness.

[MolsonExport]

For anyone interested in the types of Montreal developments post-war posted above I'd highly recommend this book: https://www.cca.qc.ca/en/events/34421/the-60s-montreal-thinks-big

There are lots of aerial pics showing full apartment neighbourhoods being built into the 60s adjacent to farmland. It's a wild juxtaposition we aren't really used to anymore.

Similarly there are black and white pics showing Toronto suburban highrises in the 60s at the edge of the city. Different form of urbanism but full neighbourhoods were built that contained a full gamut of housing typologies from scratch.

http://towerrenewal.com/wp-content/uploads/bathurst-green-belt-7.jpg

ahh, the days when we built for the future, knowing that the density is just what the doctor ordered. Build it, and they will come. Today it is "they will come, but we won't build it"

Indeed, Montreal "thought big" in the 60s. Then came the 70s. The rise of the PQ and the lead up to the first referendum. And the Big Owe (unfinished, 10 times over budget, shoddy construction, Mafia contracts). And Mirabel. The combination of this triad killed Montreal's aspirations...for decades.

[Docere]

The 1951 Census Tract data has 1941 populations.

North York grew from 23,000 in 1941 to 86,000 in 1951. It was pretty much completely rural in 1940. What went up during the immediate aftermath can be described as "pre-Don Mills" and is still a continuation of the grid.

Most of the initial postwar growth occurred around Yonge and east of Bathurst.

The Ledbury Park/Glencairn area (between Bathurst and Avenue Rd.) is immediate post-war development.

1941 1,616
1951 12,318
1961 15,635

The area around Avenue Rd. and Lawrence feels like a transition between North Toronto and North York. In fact Google maps (incorrectly) excludes it from North York.

Lansing and Willowdale were postal villages pre-WWII and still followed the grid pattern:

1941 5,577
1951 21,823
1961 36,151

[Docere]

This old post from Monkey Ronin captures well what I'm speaking about it. The built-up area in 1950 includes the transitional, pre-Don Mills areas:

https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6932202&postcount=9

[MolsonExport]

Rexdale, way back in the day:
https://media.blogto.com/articles/1950s-Rexdale-Esso.jpg?w=2048&cmd=resize_then_crop&height=1365&quality=70

https://mrdan.files.wordpress.com/2016/03/rexdale-plaza-looking-se-from-islington-dominion-edit.jpg

[MonkeyRonin]

This old post from Monkey Ronin captures well what I'm speaking about it. The built-up area in 1950 includes the transitional, pre-Don Mills areas:

https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6932202&postcount=9


Blast from the past! Nice find. :P

Here's a better map though (not by me), with more granular building-by-building age data: https://historiandanielross.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/city-of-toronto-building-construction-dates.jpg

The dates are a bit different though (eg. 1945-1960 are all lumped together, so you don't really get a sense of the immediate post-war era vs post-Don Mills era); and it shows newer development, so you can also see areas that have experienced heavier redevelopment (which includes much of the immediate post-war bungalow belt).

[Docere]

Lansing/Willowdale

1941 5,577
1951 21,823
1961 36,151
1971 36,900

Newtonbrook

1941 2,341
1951 5,824
1961 19,062
1971 33,465

Downsview

1941 813
1951 5,163
1961 34,393
1971 43,680

[Docere]

Downsview postal codes

1941 1,682
1951 12,149
1961 66,620
1971 130,375

Bathurst Manor/Wilson Heights

1961 30,643
1971 34,725

Old Downsview

1961 34,393
1971 43,680

Jane-Finch

1961 1,584
1971 51,970

[MonkeyRonin]

Similarly there are black and white pics showing Toronto suburban highrises in the 60s at the edge of the city. Different form of urbanism but full neighbourhoods were built that contained a full gamut of housing typologies from scratch.

http://towerrenewal.com/wp-content/uploads/bathurst-green-belt-7.jpg


That's something we might be seeing more of again in the future though! Here's one proposal for a greenfield site in Brampton:

https://cdn.skyrisecities.com/sites/default/files/images/articles/2024/01/54910/54910-166594.jpeg

https://cdn.skyrisecities.com/sites/default/files/images/articles/2024/01/54910/54910-166595.jpg
https://urbantoronto.ca/news/2024/01/mixed-use-plans-apple-factory-farm-market-bramptons-mount-pleasant-neighbourhood.54910

[kool maudit]

Is Leaside urban or suburban?

It's certainly an early vintage than Don Mills (built up mostly in the 1940s), and on the old grid. But you can see elements of both.


Leaside is an example of where Toronto resembles Los Angeles. It is similar to Beverly Hills in a way.

[Docere]

Population of postal code areas:

Downsview

1941 1,682
1951 12,149
1961 66,620
1971 130,375

Willowdale

1941 9,788
1951 30,492
1961 76,025
1971 165,345

Don Mills

1941 1,252
1951 3,618
1961 32,994
1971 68,530

(This is approximate based on Census Tracts. This was standard practice until about 25 years ago. York University for example had a "Downsview, ON" address. York Mills/Bridle Path area was split between Willowdale and Don Mills).

[Docere]

Population in 2021:

Downsview (M3H, M3J, M3K, M3L, M3M, M3N) 157,896
Willowdale (M2H, M2J, M2K, M2L, M2M, M2N, M2P) 236,369
Don Mills (M3A, M3B, M3C) 86,857

[Docere]

Leaside is an example of where Toronto resembles Los Angeles. It is similar to Beverly Hills in a way.

How about Forest Hill?

[Docere]

https://i.imgur.com/Ziaaoxt.png

[Docere]

Long Branch, Mimico and New Toronto

1941 22,746
1951 31,263
1961 42,635
1971 42,225

Southern and Central Etobicoke

1941 18,018
1951 51,819
1961 127,619
1971 180,850

North Etobicoke (Rexdale)

1941 955
1951 1,960
1961 28,416
1971 59,665

[Docere]

From the 1961 census.

Downsview

Managers/professionals 18.8%
Clerical/sales 29.5%
Craftsmen/production workers 28.9%

Don Mills

Managers/professionals 45.3%
Clerical/sales 19.8%
Craftsmen/production workers 9.8%

[Docere]

Toronto's postwar suburbs, which were increasingly corporate-built, housed two-thirds of the metropolitan population by 1975. Many of the suburbs in the 1950s were similar to American designs using the neighbourhood unit, refined by Clarence Perry in the 1920s, which included schools, commercial plazas, and a hierarchy of arterial and curvilinear, looping and cul-de-sac streets for residential areas. The houses, which were often ranch-style with picture windows and recreation rooms as in America (split-level for the more upscale), were oriented parallel to the streets on wider and shallower lots in contrast to those of prewar districts. These suburbs were of low density, though not as low as those of some American suburbs. In contrast to many American tracts, apartment buildings often punctuated the landscape.

- James Lemon, Liberal Dreams and Nature's Limits: Great Cities of North America Since 1600

[manny_santos]

Population in 2021:

Downsview (M3H, M3J, M3K, M3L, M3M, M3N) 157,896
Willowdale (M2H, M2J, M2K, M2L, M2M, M2N, M2P) 236,369
Don Mills (M3A, M3B, M3C) 86,857

I’ve long wondered how Metro Toronto was split up along these postal names - I know Rexdale was another one.

Is there any complete map or list of how Metro Toronto was split up?

[Docere]

I haven't seen a map - maybe an old Canada Post postal code directory would have it - but here's how I think it went:

Agincourt M1S, M1T, M1V, M1W
Don Mills M3A, M3B, M3C
Downsview M3H, M3J, M3L, M3M, M3N
Islington M9A, M9B, M9C
Rexdale M9V, M9W
Scarborough M1B, M1H, M1M, M1N, M1P, M1R, M1X
West Hill M1C, M1E, M1G
Weston M9L, M9M, M9N, M9P, M9R
Willowdale M2H, M2K, M2L, M2M, M2N, M2P

All the others had "Toronto" addresses.

[Proof Sheet]

I haven't seen a map - maybe an old Canada Post postal code directory would have it - but here's how I think it went:

Agincourt M1S, M1T, M1V, M1W
Don Mills M3A, M3B, M3C
Downsview M3H, M3J, M3L, M3M, M3N
Islington M9A, M9B, M9C
Rexdale M9V, M9W
Scarborough M1B, M1H, M1M, M1N, M1P, M1R, M1X
West Hill M1C, M1E, M1G
Weston M9L, M9M, M9N, M9P, M9R
Willowdale M2H, M2K, M2L, M2M, M2N, M2P

All the others had "Toronto" addresses.

I've seen 'Etobicoke' as a postal address as well and I think East York also listed.

[manny_santos]

I've seen 'Etobicoke' as a postal address as well and I think East York also listed.

I'm surprised M1X and M1B wasn't considered Malvern.

I would also assume M2R would've been considered Willowdale.

[Docere]

My mistake. All M2- postal codes are Willowdale including M2R.

I've never heard of a "Malvern, ON" mailing address.