Urbanization in Canada

[Docere]

urban

British Columbia 86%
Alberta 84%
Saskatchewan 67%
Manitoba 73%
Ontario 87%
Quebec 81%
New Brunswick 49%
Nova Scotia 57%
Prince Edward Island 45%
Newfoundland 58%

% in large urban population centres (100,000+)

British Columbia 62%
Alberta 57%
Saskatchewan 42%
Manitoba 56%
Ontario 68%
Quebec 59%
New Brunswick 15%
Nova Scotia 34%
Prince Edward Island 0
Newfoundland 34%

[Nouvellecosse]

Interesting how PEI is the most rural in both metrics. It honestly doesn't feel the most rural to me, probably since it's so small geographically and Charlottetown and Summerside loom so large over the whole province. In NS, we have much more rural land that is far more detached from any city or major town. I think the somewhat ironic reason is there's so much development in PEI outside of the urban centres that those areas often don't feel as traditionally rural or isolated. You don't get the same feeling of driving for ages through bucolic or rustic areas that time and the outside world seemingly forgot.

[someone123]

These numbers are likely changing extremely rapidly in the Maritimes. Halifax is growing by around 5% per year and 2% of the provincial population got moved into the CMA in the 2021 census period. Charlottetown is just a bit under the 100,000 cutoff and likely has better services than many areas just over 100,000. Most provinces follow a pattern where around half or more of the provincial population is in some core area.

Statistics Canada has finer-grained geographical data on remoteness in Canada: https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/11-633-x/11-633-x2020002-eng.htm

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/11-633-x/2020002/m-c/m-c-01-eng.png

You could quibble with this map ranking some farming areas well outside of the Southern Ontario metros in a higher category than anywhere in 5 provinces but it's good to try to move to a finer-grained scale than just urban-rural. You could look at economic basis and diversity (resource based vs. services and so on). Some places "look rural" but have an urban economy, and it depends on how people work and travel options.

[Docere]

% of population in metros over 500,000

BC 57%
Alberta 68%
Manitoba 62%
Ontario 68%
Quebec 64%

I used CMAs over 500,000 but also added Oshawa to Toronto and Abbotsford to Vancouver.

Halifax is just short of half a million. 48% live in Halifax CMA. The CMA contains some areas that aren't considered urban by StatCan.

[Changing City]

The proportion in large urban population centres (100,000+), is a bit misleading for BC. Because, (unlike cities like Calgary, Toronto or Montreal), Vancouver hasn't been amalgamated into a megacity, there are a number of Metro Vancouver municipalities which have less than 100,000, but are clearly an urban population centre. New Westminster would be one example. Similarly, Victoria hasn't been amalgamated, so has 99,800 population in 2021, but is much more urban than Saanich, which had 117,000.

[Nouvellecosse]

^ Pretty sure "urban population centres" refers to metro areas rather than municipalities.

[lio45]

To reconcile “56% of Manitobans live in urban areas over 100k” and “62% of Manitobans live in metros over 500k”, what you just said must be wrong.

[lio45]

(I looked Brandon up to confirm it wasn’t above 100k, and since it isn’t, we can directly infer from the stats that 56% of Manitobans live inside Winnipeg city limits while another 6% live in satellite municipalities around Winnipeg.)

[1ajs]

thats about right and that weird orange blob in northern mb is the thompson nickel balt

[Nouvellecosse]

To reconcile “56% of Manitobans live in urban areas over 100k” and “62% of Manitobans live in metros over 500k”, what you just said must be wrong.

But if it involves city propers, it also doesn't reconcile. For instance, it says 64% of Quebec is in metros over 500k and that 59% is in urban population centres of over 100k. There are about 10 city propers of over 100k in Quebec and their combined population accounts for only about 47% of the province. I used 2016 numbers, but unless there were some huge changes in less than a decade, it wouldn't have gone from 47% to 59% that quickly. And of course it does't say what numbers the original assessment was based on to begin with.

It could be that the +500k number includes the Montreal and QC metro areas (which may not be necessarily be defined as CMAs) while the 100k population centres may use CMAs or census agglomeration. This could trim more from the big metro areas than it adds with new ones. There are several census agglomerations between 100k and 500k within the two big metro areas that it may count in the 500k number but exclude in the 100k number. But either way, city propers doesn't work.

Of course, it's also possible that there's just an error in the data or methodology. Tough to tell without seeing the actual numbers and calculations. But I think it's safe to say that if it were city propers, he would have used a clearer and more specific term than "large urban population centres"

[Changing City]

^ Pretty sure "urban population centres" refers to metro areas rather than municipalities.

If you add up the CMAs in BC that had over 100,000 people in 2021, It includes Vancouver, Victoria, Kelowna, Abbotsford-Mission, Nanaimo, Kamloops and Chilliwack. Together they're 76% of BC's population. If you add the population of the other 21 CMAs that had less than 100,000 people in 2021, then you get 90% of BC's population living in Metropolitan areas.

So it's either using municipalties, old data, or some other definition of 'urban'.

For Manitoba, there's only one CMA over 500,000, and no others with 100,000. Winnipeg CMA had 834,678 people in the 2021 census, which was 62% of Manitoba. If you take Winnipeg municipality, it had 749,607 people, so 56% of Manitoba's population. That suggests the data for 'urban areas' uses municipalities, not CMAs, while the 'metropolitan' data uses CMAs.

Add the other 5 CMAs wiith population under 100,000, and you get 72% of Manitobans living in CMAs.

[MonkeyRonin]

If you add up the CMAs in BC that had over 100,000 people in 2021, It includes Vancouver, Victoria, Kelowna, Abbotsford-Mission, Nanaimo, Kamloops and Chilliwack. Together they're 76% of BC's population. If you add the population of the other 21 CMAs that had less tha 100,000 people in 2021, then you get 90% of BC's population living in Metropolitan areas.

So it's either using municipalties, old data, or some other definition of 'urban'.


A population centre (https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2016/ref/dict/geo049a-eng.cfm) isn't a CMA though - it's the contiguously built-up portion of a metro area (so almost always smaller as it excludes the rural & exurban parts of CMA). CMAs, by their nature aren't necessarily 100% urbanized.

[Changing City]

A population centre (https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2016/ref/dict/geo049a-eng.cfm) isn't a CMA though - it's the contiguously built-up portion of a metro area (so almost always smaller as it excludes the rural & exurban parts of CMA). CMAs, by their nature aren't necessarily 100% urbanized.

So if you use that data set, (which seems a good one to use for rural vs urban), in 2021 Manitoba has 25% of its population in rural areas, and 75% everywhere else - so 'urban'. BC had 13% in rural areas, and 87% in 'urban'. Ontario was the same. Alberta was 15% rural, 85% urban, and Quebec was 19% rural, 81% urban. So it looks like that's the dataset, but the percentages weren't rounded accurately.

[Docere]

Initial numbers are from this source but 2016.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/608702/population-distribution-of-manitoba-by-rural-urban-type/

The rest I got from 2021 census on Statcan website.

[Docere]

These numbers are likely changing extremely rapidly in the Maritimes. Halifax is growing by around 5% per year and 2% of the provincial population got moved into the CMA in the 2021 census period. Charlottetown is just a bit under the 100,000 cutoff and likely has better services than many areas just over 100,000. Most provinces follow a pattern where around half or more of the provincial population is in some core area.

Statistics Canada has finer-grained geographical data on remoteness in Canada: https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/11-633-x/11-633-x2020002-eng.htm

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/11-633-x/2020002/m-c/m-c-01-eng.png

You could quibble with this map ranking some farming areas well outside of the Southern Ontario metros in a higher category than anywhere in 5 provinces but it's good to try to move to a finer-grained scale than just urban-rural. You could look at economic basis and diversity (resource based vs. services and so on). Some places "look rural" but have an urban economy, and it depends on how people work and travel options.

We have about 60% of the population living in 2% of the land area. That's well highlighted on this map.

[Docere]

% of population in metro areas over 500,000* 58.6
% of population in CMAs 73.8


* all CMAs over 500,000 plus Oshawa and Abbotsford

[Docere]

Large population centres, 2021 census

Toronto 5,647,656
Montreal 3,675,219
Vancouver 2,426,160
Calgary 1,305,550
Edmonton 1,151,635
Ottawa-Gatineau 1,068,821
Winnipeg 758,515
Quebec City 733,156
Hamilton 729,560
Kitchener 522,888
London 423,369
Victoria 363,222
Halifax 348,634
Oshawa 335,949
Windsor 306,519
Saskatoon 264,637
St. Catharines-Niagara 242,460
Regina 224,996
St. John's 185,565
Kelowna 181,380
Barrie 154,676
Sherbrooke 151,157
Guelph 144,356
Kanata 137,118
Abbotsford 132,300
Trois-Rivieres 128,057
Kingston 127,943
Milton 124,579
Moncton 119,785
White Rock 109,167
Nanaimo 106,079
Brantford 104,413
Chicoutimi-Jonquiere 103,934
Saint-Jerome 100,859

[Loco101]

Large population centres, 2021 census

Toronto 5,647,656
Montreal 3,675,219
Vancouver 2,426,160
Calgary 1,305,550
Edmonton 1,151,635
Ottawa-Gatineau 1,068,821
Winnipeg 758,515
Quebec City 733,156
Hamilton 729,560
Kitchener 522,888
London 423,369
Victoria 363,222
Halifax 348,634
Oshawa 335,949
Windsor 306,519
Saskatoon 264,637
St. Catharines-Niagara 242,460
Regina 224,996
St. John's 185,565
Kelowna 181,380
Barrie 154,676
Sherbrooke 151,157
Guelph 144,356
Kanata 137,118
Abbotsford 132,300
Trois-Rivieres 128,057
Kingston 127,943
Milton 124,579
Moncton 119,785
White Rock 109,167
Nanaimo 106,079
Brantford 104,413
Chicoutimi-Jonquiere 103,934
Saint-Jerome 100,859

Kanata is part of Ottawa and Chicoutimi-Jonquière is part of the City of Saguenay. The City of Ottawa now has over a million people and we're talking about just the Ontario side.

[MonctonRad]

Kanata is part of Ottawa and Chicoutimi-Jonquière is part of the City of Saguenay. The City of Ottawa now has over a million people and we're talking about just the Ontario side.

He's referring to POPCTR (continuous built up urban area), not CMA (commuter watershed).

[niwell]

I get the distinction but in Ottawa's case it doesn't really make sense to exclude Kanata when Orleans and Barrhaven are included. It's an artificial boundary between the two and Kanata is very much part of what's considered Ottawa.

[MolsonExport]

These numbers are likely changing extremely rapidly in the Maritimes. Halifax is growing by around 5% per year and 2% of the provincial population got moved into the CMA in the 2021 census period. Charlottetown is just a bit under the 100,000 cutoff and likely has better services than many areas just over 100,000. Most provinces follow a pattern where around half or more of the provincial population is in some core area.

Statistics Canada has finer-grained geographical data on remoteness in Canada: https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/11-633-x/11-633-x2020002-eng.htm

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/11-633-x/2020002/m-c/m-c-01-eng.png

You could quibble with this map ranking some farming areas well outside of the Southern Ontario metros in a higher category than anywhere in 5 provinces but it's good to try to move to a finer-grained scale than just urban-rural. You could look at economic basis and diversity (resource based vs. services and so on). Some places "look rural" but have an urban economy, and it depends on how people work and travel options.

Northern Manitoba is Very Remote. Who knew?

[MonctonRad]

Northern Manitoba is Very Remote. Who knew?

Apparently it is more remote than Alert or Resolute! :eek: :haha:

[drew]

yeah, areas of Northern Manitoba are very remote, but I don't think you would ever consider them more remote than say...Baffin Island or Ellesmere Island.

[Arrdeeharharharbour]

The inclusion of the north symbol on this map by the creator calls into question their knowledge of map making and/or attention to detail. In terms of direction this map is fibbing to all but those who exist along a single line of longitude.

[TorontoDrew]

That map seems a little flawed. Like most of Northern Ontario and the vasy majority of the territories should be very remote.

Here is a map of every single road in Canada it's large but worth it.

source: https://nuvomagazine.com
https://nuvomagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/canada_roads_plasma_highres-2.jpg


And her is a map of tree coverage in Canada.

https://nuvomagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/tree-map.jpg

[someone123]

The road map uses roadway classification data that's very inconsistent between provinces and often doesn't match the scale and importance of the roads. A yellow line can be a minor 2-lane rural road in one area and a 10-lane urban freeway in another.

[Harrison]

The road map uses roadway classification data that's very inconsistent between provinces and often doesn't match the scale and importance of the roads. A yellow line can be a minor 2-lane rural road in one area and a 10-lane urban freeway in another.

Doesn't that map just classify all of those yellow lines as Provincnial highways? Would make sense because then the 401 and Highway 1 in the NWT would be the same classification.

[manny_santos]

Doesn't that map just classify all of those yellow lines as Provincnial highways? Would make sense because then the 401 and Highway 1 in the NWT would be the same classification.

In Ontario, looks like the yellow lines also include County/Regional roads.

[manny_santos]

I get the distinction but in Ottawa's case it doesn't really make sense to exclude Kanata when Orleans and Barrhaven are included. It's an artificial boundary between the two and Kanata is very much part of what's considered Ottawa.

They also have White Rock classified separately from Vancouver, and the map even shows the Population Centre to include South Surrey. While White Rock is a separate municipality, it does have a rural gap between the rest of Metro Vancouver. Aldergrove, Aldergrove East, Ladner and Tsawwassen are also separate Population Centres. (I don't know what the point of Aldergrove East is, it's connected to Aldergrove and I've never heard anyone refer to "Aldergrove East".)

Surrey, as a municipality is unique in that it falls in two different Population Centres and has a section not part of a Population Centre - part in White Rock, part in Vancouver, and part in neither. And Delta falls in three.

[someone123]

In Ontario, looks like the yellow lines also include County/Regional roads.

The designations are sort of internally consistent per province but like I said don't correspond to the development level.

One funny example is that NS-106, a 2-lane road, is designated in the highest category because it was deemed a part of the TCH as it runs to the PEI ferry. That hasn't been the main route to PEI since the bridge was built.

NS-102 is basically the main artery in NS which connects most of the population to the mainland but it's not designated as part of the TCH. It gets the same designation as non-twinned or controlled-access rural roads in a number of other provinces.

[MolsonExport]

it is still a pretty cool graphic.

[Docere]

I quite like this map:

https://eoimages.gsfc.nasa.gov/images/imagerecords/7000/7052/us_population_2005_lrg.jpg

[TorontoDrew]

According to this site Canada's urbanized population is 81.8%. Just above France with 81.5% and just below Palau at 82%. Canada's uban population rate is growing by 0.95% each year. These stats are from 2022.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/most-urbanized-countries

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53405820712_3f1b171c5a_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2pnhMSh)urbanization (https://flic.kr/p/2pnhMSh) by Andrew Moore (https://www.flickr.com/photos/152946574@N05/), on Flickr


If you don't know like me, Palua is a tiny Island Nation. It looks amazing. Only 18,000 people.

from expedia.ca
https://mediaim.expedia.com/destination/1/49c7626f0867bde13cc633eab57f5b84.jpg

[MolsonExport]

^looks gorgeous. Also looks highly vulnerable to climate change.

[Docere]

Using the 500,000 threshold for "large city and adding Oshawa and Milton to Toronto, White Rock to Vancouver, Kanata to Ottawa and St. Jerome to Montreal - 51% of Canadians live in urban areas over 500,000.

Lower than Australia (64%), about the same as the US (53%), higher than the UK (39%).

However Canadians are less likely to live in low-density suburbs than Americans. The typical American suburb is more like Newmarket or Maple Ridge than Mississauga or Surrey.

[Loco101]

However Canadians are less likely to live in low-density suburbs than Americans. The typical American suburb is more like Newmarket or Maple Ridge than Mississauga or Surrey.

That seems correct from my own observations. It's hard to think of any suburban American cities that have a large number of skyscrapers like you see Mississauga or even Surrey.

[Changing City]

The typical American suburb is more like Newmarket or Maple Ridge than Mississauga or Surrey.

Maple Ridge seems to be ok with having towers (https://www.mikestewart.ca/presale/era-maple-ridge-city-centre-presale-condos-downtown-office-retail/). Newmarket on the other hand, maybe not so much (https://www.newmarkettoday.ca/local-news/newmarket-duo-recognized-for-halting-main-street-condo-tower-5939671)?

[niwell]

Newmarket definitely has a few midrises / towers under construction or proposed and a decent number of older apartment buildings built at various points in time. Despite the ridiculous characterization of a "monstrous thing" I do actually think that it probably wasn't the best spot for new development. The historic Newmarket downtown is a bit East of Yonge st and the site is one of the more interesting corners in that part of the GTA (and the building is actually being expanded as a hotel): https://maps.app.goo.gl/ykU9hjk7ZsH749vU8

New towers under construction:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/aGxrwAohARxbRbsx9
https://maps.app.goo.gl/P7ZtZiyS98mDEW187

I'm sure the timeline on this is pretty long but there's a big proposal for the Upper Canada Mall to be redeveloped: https://urbantoronto.ca/database/projects/upper-canada-mall-redevelopment.50474

[thewave46]

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/11-633-x/2020002/m-c/m-c-01-eng.png



This is such a weird map from a practical point of view. I get it meets some standardized statistical criteria, but still.

Northern Manitoba and much of Northwestern Ontario are about the same 'remoteness', if the only way in or out is a winter road/bush plane. Yet the map classifies them differently.

I'd grade it by presence of all-weather/season highways, number of transportation options (car/bus/train/airport), and proximity to nearest CMA.

Yet, it classifies Baffin Island as about as remote as Kenora, 3 hours by car from Winnipeg. Sure.

[thebasketballgeek]

That seems correct from my own observations. It's hard to think of any suburban American cities that have a large number of skyscrapers like you see Mississauga or even Surrey.

Depending on what you would consider a suburb Arlington VA, Jersey City, and Bellevue WA I would say fit that Mississauga/Surrey mold.

[MolsonExport]

This is such a weird map from a practical point of view. I get it meets some standardized statistical criteria, but still.

Northern Manitoba and much of Northwestern Ontario are about the same 'remoteness', if the only way in or out is a winter road/bush plane. Yet the map classifies them differently.

I'd grade it by presence of all-weather/season highways, number of transportation options (car/bus/train/airport), and proximity to nearest CMA.

Yet, it classifies Baffin Island as about as remote as Kenora, 3 hours by car from Winnipeg. Sure.

And how is the Great Northern Newfoundland Peninsula "Very Remote" when it has numerous villages (~15K in total population) and roads connecting it to the rest of the island?

[someone123]

Northern Manitoba and much of Northwestern Ontario are about the same 'remoteness', if the only way in or out is a winter road/bush plane. Yet the map classifies them differently.

You can see provincial boundaries in a lot of these maps, including on the road map where just over the border Saskatchewan seems to have a less developed road network than Manitoba. Maybe they do but it could just be the classification and you can see SK has a similar density of roads.

I agree if you have no road access whatsoever you're basically at max remoteness and in remote areas you care about what basic services you can get to within some reasonable timeframe, not having a 200k vs 2 million person urban area 8 hours away.

A high resolution population density map showing the full settlement patterns is probably most expressive overall.

[TorontoDrew]

Perhaps one of the metrics for that map are about settlements and access to infrastructure? NFLD might have a bunch of roads up their but not much in the way of gas, hydro, and internet. The Dempster hwy in the Yukon is Canada's most northern hwy but some of the segments are over 350km between fuel up stations. If you break down up there you'll need to wait for a passerby for assistance unless you have a satellite phone. Help could be several hours away. It's probably nowhere near that bad in norther NFLD though.

[someone123]

It's not exactly a megacity but I'm pretty sure St. Anthony NL has basic services like internet.

(To me it's fairly standard to see Canada-level statistical constructs that are a poor fit for Atlantic Canada and tend to make it look worse than it is.)

[Acajack]

Deer Lake to St Anthony is around 500 km I think. My guess is that any stretches without gas and basic services would be in the 100 km range at the very most. Maybe more in the 50-75 km range even.

In that sense, it's probably no worse than crossing Northern Ontario on the TCH (especially Ontario Highway 11).

[zoomer]

So, I’m planning a 7-10 day trip to Toronto in May, and I’m pretty excited about exploring it in a fair bit of detail based on the time I have.

Now, this afternoon I was watching Ken Continuum’s (don’t watch him much, usually I’ll catch Johnny Strides a couple times a week) live early evening street walk in Toronto from Midtown to Little Jamaica, probably around 7:30ish p.m. Toronto time.

He said something that caught my attention in reply to a viewer comment about Vancouver:

“It’s a beautiful city, it just seemed a bit too sleepy for my liking, didn’t have the vitality and energy that Toronto has”.

“I’m more of an urbanity guy”.

You’ll find that around the 1:23:42 left in the live stream.

I think most would say that’s a fair assessment, but as I know Vancouver very well its my starting point for what I can expect in Toronto.

Later with 1:22:05 left he says as he’s walking up Eglington, he says “ok, we’re coming into Little Jamaica - this is the sort of neighbourhood you’ll never find in Vancouver”.

True?

His walk is at night so it’s hard to see a lot to be fair, and it’s a Monday in January, but I’m not so sure what makes this neighbourhood that special. Is it something worth checking out? It feels like a mid-speed stroad, not pedestrian friendly, lots of shops that are boarded up or in poor condition, and nothing that interesting in terms of retail or food. I think it’s fair to say I’m not a fan of grit for grits sake, and maybe during the summer the number and diversity of people makes it interesting? But isnt’t that everywhere in Toronto? Just can’t see it being high on my list of things to check out. Is it like Vancouver’s Commercial Drive but longer?

If that’s our bar for urbanity in Canada - run down one and two storey buildings along car dominated streets maybe NotJustBikes was on to something. That being said, I think there are great neighbourhoods in downtown Vancouver, I’m just not sure why folks go on about car dominated neighbourhoods. Greater diversity and more affordable, ok that’s good, but is that it?

2otXtfhmIFE?si=JxUXCR8Waf8DYqYs

[Nouvellecosse]

If that’s our bar for urbanity in Canada - run down one and two storey buildings along car dominated streets maybe NotJustBikes was on to something. That being said, I think there are great neighbourhoods in downtown Vancouver, I’m just not sure why folks go on about car dominated neighbourhoods. Greater diversity and more affordable, ok that’s good, but is that it?


The problem with this type of discussion is that there are a lot of things that can make a city interesting, exciting, and enjoyable beyond utilitarian traits that some urban enthusiasts focus on. It reminds me of the lists ranking the cities with the highest quality of life. You always see people commenting that they wouldn't be interested in living in many of the listed cities since they're chosen solely on the basic of practical, functional things while ignoring stuff like uniqueness, charisma and energy.

Being in a city that one is passionate about makes up for a lot of potential shortcomings, but the things people are passionate about are much harder to quantify. That's sometimes because people's tastes vary more than their functional needs, but also because the things that make people passionate about cities are just more complex. They're mixtures of things ranging from architecture, natural landscape, culture, scents, and sounds. And sometimes just the general ambiance and gestalt of the place. Probably why the term "a certain je ne sais quoi" is so enduring. The NJB host may be genuinely passionate about things like well designed pedestrian infrastructure and bike lanes, but that's not the case for most people.

[MonkeyRonin]

So, I’m planning a 7-10 day trip to Toronto in May, and I’m pretty excited about exploring it in a fair bit of detail based on the time I have.

Now, this afternoon I was watching Ken Continuum’s (don’t watch him much, usually I’ll catch Johnny Strides a couple times a week) live early evening street walk in Toronto from Midtown to Little Jamaica, probably around 7:30ish p.m. Toronto time.

He said something that caught my attention in reply to a viewer comment about Vancouver:

“It’s a beautiful city, it just seemed a bit too sleepy for my liking, didn’t have the vitality and energy that Toronto has”.

“I’m more of an urbanity guy”.

You’ll find that around the 1:23:42 left in the live stream.

I think most would say that’s a fair assessment, but as I know Vancouver very well its my starting point for what I can expect in Toronto.

Later with 1:22:05 left he says as he’s walking up Eglington, he says “ok, we’re coming into Little Jamaica - this is the sort of neighbourhood you’ll never find in Vancouver”.

True?

His walk is at night so it’s hard to see a lot to be fair, and it’s a Monday in January, but I’m not so sure what makes this neighbourhood that special. Is it something worth checking out? It feels like a mid-speed stroad, not pedestrian friendly, lots of shops that are boarded up or in poor condition, and nothing that interesting in terms of retail or food. I think it’s fair to say I’m not a fan of grit for grits sake, and maybe during the summer the number and diversity of people makes it interesting? But isnt’t that everywhere in Toronto? Just can’t see it being high on my list of things to check out. Is it like Vancouver’s Commercial Drive but longer?

If that’s our bar for urbanity in Canada - run down one and two storey buildings along car dominated streets maybe NotJustBikes was on to something. That being said, I think there are great neighbourhoods in downtown Vancouver, I’m just not sure why folks go on about car dominated neighbourhoods. Greater diversity and more affordable, ok that’s good, but is that it?


By something "you’ll never find in Vancouver" I'm guessing he means a Jamaican (or predominantly black) neighbourhood. Either that, or a relatively busy peripheral commercial area quite a ways outside of the city centre.

Just as far as urbanity goes, I'd say Eglinton is a pretty good comparison to Broadway in Vancouver: they're both major commercial strips built up along early 1900s streetcar routes (and both now awaiting long-anticipated subways to open), with a mix of low-slung older storefronts, post-war towers, and newer development. Neither are particularly attractive and can feel a bit stroad-y at times, but they're busy & interesting for a long stretch nonetheless.

Eglinton West (Little Jamaica) in particular though is also one of those places that can feel like a bit more than the sum of it's parts, particularly in the summer with its vibrant street life. Though it's suffered a bit in recent years due to the unending subway construction.

https://i.imgur.com/IqVvYtk.jpg
https://thelittlejamaica.com/be-inspired-by-culture/

[zoomer]

Nouvellecosse - Agree with those points. I guess I wasn't thinking that big picture, but more specifically about the Toronto neighborhoods Ken likes. Do they exist in Vancouver and are they really great or even good urbanism?

Cities do have a je ne sais quoi - that often takes decades to full appreciate as it's history becomes intertwined with your familiy’s own. I really appreciate the YouTube walking tour dudes who have a love for their city, it's comes through in their work.

Edit - thanks MonkeyRonin for the insights. And that explanation exactly matches what I saw on the video and the comparison to Broadway is helpful. If I was in Toronto longer I'd check out that area, but since I'm not I don't think it'll be on my list. So much more to see that's of more interest to me personally and a better pedestrian/urban experience.

[Loco101]

Deer Lake to St Anthony is around 500 km I think. My guess is that any stretches without gas and basic services would be in the 100 km range at the very most. Maybe more in the 50-75 km range even.

In that sense, it's probably no worse than crossing Northern Ontario on the TCH (especially Ontario Highway 11).

I've driven throughout NL and the most remote drive that I remember was the highway to Harbour Breton. I think it took over 2 hours and there was nothing along the way.

The most famous remote stretch in Northern Ontario is Hwy 11 between Hearst and Longlac. I think it takes 2.5 hours and there are no places in between.

[MonkeyRonin]

Nouvellecosse - Agree with those points. I guess I wasn't thinking that big picture, but more specifically about the Toronto neighborhoods Ken likes. Do they exist in Vancouver and are they really great or even good urbanism?


You won't find much of the old 19th-century, bricky, fine-grained sort of neighbourhoods that are great about Toronto in Vancouver (something I do often miss), but at the same time Vancouver still has some really special places like the West End, Gastown, or Fairview are great neighbourhoods in their own right and offer different forms of urbanity that Toronto doesn't. Meanwhile, there are places like Commercial Drive or Main St. that maybe don't have the best urbanity or architecture ever, but also ultimately coalesce into something with a unique character that is greater than the sum of their parts.

Without being too kumbaya about it, I think it's better to appreciate the unique qualities and differences that make cities what they are instead of trying to compare different places using the same measuring stick. Fair enough for someone to prefer one type of place over another, but at the extreme end you get guys like NJB who only seems to be able to appreciate places that fit into a very narrow set of criteria.

[Architype]

You won't find much of the old 19th-century, bricky, fine-grained sort of neighbourhoods that are great about Toronto in Vancouver (something I do often miss), but at the same time Vancouver still has some really special places like the West End, Gastown, or Fairview are great neighbourhoods in their own right and offer different forms of urbanity that Toronto doesn't. Meanwhile, there are places like Commercial Drive or Main St. that maybe don't have the best urbanity or architecture ever, but also ultimately coalesce into something with a unique character that is greater than the sum of their parts.

Without being too kumbaya about it, I think it's better to appreciate the unique qualities and differences that make cities what they are instead of trying to compare different places using the same measuring stick. Fair enough for someone to prefer one type of place over another, but at the extreme end you get guys like NJB who only seems to be able to appreciate places that fit into a very narrow set of criteria.

A lot of Vancouver's commercial streets have that squatty one-story temporary look, probably because of zoning at the time, much being built when suburbs were everything, and even in truly urban neighbourhoods, apartments were built only on residential side streets. I've noticed this consistently changing for over two decades now, with most new construction on streets like Broadway being commercial with floors of residential above.

Davie Street with the outmoded single stories:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/FqUGFRMM7k3CZnWS9
Newer commercial / residential East Broadway:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/YJu4YCyQvKoEW1hE8

[Changing City]

A lot of Vancouver's commercial streets have that squatty one-story temporary look, probably because of zoning at the time, much being built when suburbs were everything, and even in truly urban neighbourhoods, apartments were built only on residential side streets. I've noticed this consistently changing for over two decades now, with most new construction on streets like Broadway being commercial with floors of residential above.


The city of Vancouver's arterial commercial streets were almost all developed before there was any zoning, and when developers could build apartments above commercial space if they chose. The single storey commercial buildings that you can find on Davie, Robson, Commercial, Main etc etc are almost all over 100 years old, and haven't redeveloped because they've remained as viable investments, and the disruption to the cash-flow, and additional expenditure hasn't been worth the owner redeveloping. Over the past 30 years that has been steadily changing, as residential rents have risen, so the extra value of the residential component makes it worth the risk. Allowing 6 storey wood frame changed the economics too (usually 5 wood on a concrete retail main floor). Sometimes structural issues with old buildings also prompt a redevelopment.

The saw-tooth character of many arterial streetcar streets is becoming more uniformly street-wall, but there are still many examples of single storey buildings. Here's a 1911 cinema on Commercial Drive, which has contemporary apartment blocks on either side, that became a furniture store and today is a pet store.

https://changingvancouver.files.wordpress.com/2023/08/1710-commercial-drive.jpg

Image and history on Changing Vancouver (https://changingvancouver.wordpress.com/2023/08/28/1710-commercial-drive/).

[Drybrain]

A lot of Vancouver's commercial streets have that squatty one-story temporary look, probably because of zoning at the time, much being built when suburbs were everything, and even in truly urban neighbourhoods, apartments were built only on residential side streets. I've noticed this consistently changing for over two decades now, with most new construction on streets like Broadway being commercial with floors of residential above.



This seems to be the case in most of Canada--commercial streets that look sort of rundown and dog-eared (and short), but which still form the spines of good neighbourhoods. That's the case in big cities (Dundas Street (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.6542297,-79.4235621,3a,75y,81.89h,95.63t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s7rCn6tlqmDv69_zx0O1-Pg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu) in Toronto, Commercial Drive (https://www.google.com/maps/@49.2685385,-123.0696897,3a,75y,182.34h,93.07t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sOe49c8131UYgSeHgrYNIRg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu) in Vancouver) and smaller scale (Agricola Street (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.6547337,-63.5927076,3a,90y,136.76h,93.86t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1so5kcqIvgGHure7rDXj0Xbg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu) in Halifax).

To look on the bright side, it means there's a lot of potential in developing and improving these streets--though obviously a lot of pitfalls if it's done poorly.

[isaidso]

So, I’m planning a 7-10 day trip to Toronto in May, and I’m pretty excited about exploring it in a fair bit of detail based on the time I have.

Now, this afternoon I was watching Ken Continuum’s (don’t watch him much, usually I’ll catch Johnny Strides a couple times a week) live early evening street walk in Toronto from Midtown to Little Jamaica, probably around 7:30ish p.m. Toronto time.

He said something that caught my attention in reply to a viewer comment about Vancouver:

“It’s a beautiful city, it just seemed a bit too sleepy for my liking, didn’t have the vitality and energy that Toronto has”.

“I’m more of an urbanity guy”.

You’ll find that around the 1:23:42 left in the live stream.

I think most would say that’s a fair assessment, but as I know Vancouver very well its my starting point for what I can expect in Toronto.

Later with 1:22:05 left he says as he’s walking up Eglington, he says “ok, we’re coming into Little Jamaica - this is the sort of neighbourhood you’ll never find in Vancouver”.

True?

His walk is at night so it’s hard to see a lot to be fair, and it’s a Monday in January, but I’m not so sure what makes this neighbourhood that special. Is it something worth checking out? It feels like a mid-speed stroad, not pedestrian friendly, lots of shops that are boarded up or in poor condition, and nothing that interesting in terms of retail or food. I think it’s fair to say I’m not a fan of grit for grits sake, and maybe during the summer the number and diversity of people makes it interesting? But isnt’t that everywhere in Toronto? Just can’t see it being high on my list of things to check out. Is it like Vancouver’s Commercial Drive but longer?

If that’s our bar for urbanity in Canada - run down one and two storey buildings along car dominated streets maybe NotJustBikes was on to something. That being said, I think there are great neighbourhoods in downtown Vancouver, I’m just not sure why folks go on about car dominated neighbourhoods. Greater diversity and more affordable, ok that’s good, but is that it?

2otXtfhmIFE?si=JxUXCR8Waf8DYqYs

I'm amused he considered Vancouver a bit too sleepy, argues that he's more of 'an urbanity guy', then goes on to gloat about Eglinton like it's some urbanist paradise. Eglinton itself is underwhelming and sleepy .... unless we're talking about the insane amount of space devoted to cars.

Eglinton is a noisy car dominated thoroughfare with impossibly narrow sidewalks, a depressing public realm, and lined with 1-3 floor ramshackle buildings and retail for miles in each direction. It's true that the retail is finely grained but why on earth would one go there by choice?

If you're here for a few weeks, walking along Eglinton is fine in that it would give you a sense of what Toronto arterial roads look and feel like. As you're only visiting for a week I'd skip places like that entirely. And agree, by Canadian standards Eglinton might rank as good urbanity but I'd never in a million years send an international traveller there. It has the potential to one day be an appealing urban street but it's got a LONG LONG LONG way to go.

[Nouvellecosse]

I don't think Ken was suggesting that Eglinton is some epitome of urbanism or a major attraction etc. He was just pointing out that he likes larger cities and with Toronto being similarly urban for its size but much larger than Vancouver, it has some things that Vancouver doesn't. Regardless of any shortcomings Eglinton might have, it still has a fairly substantial 9ish kilometer commercial strip with businesses mostly built in an urban format with storefronts lining the street rather than in a more suburban strip mall or big box format (which it also has outside the urban section).

While Eglinton may be a good comparison with the Broadway corridor, Eglinton at its closest is about 7km from Union station while the Broadway corridor is only around as far from Waterfront station as Bloor Street is from Union. Eglinton would be like having a corridor as substantial as Broadway or Eglinton down on 49th Avenue stretching from Marine drive to Elliott Street. So that would be mainly an issue of scale which, for a self-professed "big city person," tends to matter. In Canada, A Vancouver-sized city would have trouble delivering that.

[softee]

haha My response to the guy in the chat of my livestream about Vancouver vs Toronto was partly motivated by his trollish comment that he was happy to be living in Vancouver and that "Toronto is a dump". But it's true that Vancouver as a city seems sleepier than Toronto, IMO.

Toronto is just a much faster paced city, with a lot more going on and where places stay open later and all that other stuff that often comes with being a big, dynamic (and somewhat dysfunctional) city.

Regarding Little Jamaica, I was referring to it being a black owned business district on a long commercial street of finely grained 100 year old 2 or 3 storey brick storefronts with apartments above far away from downtown (and with many new mid-rise residential buildings underway & a rapid transit line underneath hopefully opening soon). To the East of Little Jamaica long Eglinton I walked through Upper Village, which has many Jewish owned shops and restaurants along the Northern edge of Forest Hill. My comment about urbanity was not about Eglinton Ave itself, but rather all of Toronto's old, urban & walkable commercial strips (of which there are many!).

I enjoyed my visit to Vancouver in late 2022 and praised much about it in the videos & livestream I did there, but it just lacked the big city oomph that Toronto has, which is not surprising since it's a much smaller and less substantial city. In one of my videos I did say that I could live in Vancouver, but I'd only want to live in the downtown peninsula. That being said, I'd love to go back to Vancouver and explore more of the city!

[Nouvellecosse]

^ Oh alright. Well I guess I can put my pitch fork back in storage for the moment. Still glad a bought it thought since I never know what you'll come out with. :yes:

[Docere]

Yeah, I'm not sure what the Van equivalent of Forest Hill and the old borough of York is. It's not a tourist area, but I think Eglinton West is a good area to explore if you just want to see what some neighborhoods look like on the ground. Still pretty urban but on the borderline.

[zoomer]

Softee is Ken Continuum?! Awesome! Not often we get to hear directly from the horse’s mouth so to speak and what you really meant :) Not that you’re a horse - I see you as the rock and roll polite bad boy of walking tours - well at least compared to Strides. :D

Maybe one day you should do a stream with paying tourists as part of your walk - has that been done before?

Anyways, thanks everyone - helpful stuff, I definitely have a better understanding now. And yes, the main reason I’m going to Toronto is to experience the big city omph - which might be too much for me coming from little ol’ Victoria. I’d love to go to Tokyo as well, but that too could just be too overwhelming, unless I plan/pace it right.

Softee - next time you’re in Vancouver you should hook up (not in that way..) with a Vancouver local who can take you a great walking tour with lots of urbanity that extends beyond downtown. That being said, I agree - the only area I’d want to live is the downtown peninsula and Kitsilano. But I’d only ever want to live downtown in every Canadian city, as I do in Victoria.

[Architype]

The city of Vancouver's arterial commercial streets were almost all developed before there was any zoning, and when developers could build apartments above commercial space if they chose. The single storey commercial buildings that you can find on Davie, Robson, Commercial, Main etc etc are almost all over 100 years old, and haven't redeveloped because they've remained as viable investments, and the disruption to the cash-flow, and additional expenditure hasn't been worth the owner redeveloping. Over the past 30 years that has been steadily changing, as residential rents have risen, so the extra value of the residential component makes it worth the risk. Allowing 6 storey wood frame changed the economics too (usually 5 wood on a concrete retail main floor). Sometimes structural issues with old buildings also prompt a redevelopment.

The saw-tooth character of many arterial streetcar streets is becoming more uniformly street-wall, but there are still many examples of single storey buildings. Here's a 1911 cinema on Commercial Drive, which has contemporary apartment blocks on either side, that became a furniture store and today is a pet store.

https://changingvancouver.files.wordpress.com/2023/08/1710-commercial-drive.jpg

Image and history on Changing Vancouver (https://changingvancouver.wordpress.com/2023/08/28/1710-commercial-drive/).

Thanks, most Vancouver inner city streets date back almost to the beginning of the city, or within a couple of decades after that. There is a distinction between "downtown" streets, and commercial retail streets, the latter are the ones with the ubiquitous one storey storefronts. I do agree that the rising cost of land and rents is responsible for the more recent changes. Zoning did prohibit high-rises on some commercial streets though AFAIK. Apparently zoning did come in in the late 1920's (?) but Vancouver overall appears very rigidly planned almost from the start. All the old commercial streets were not commercial to begin with though; most downtown streets, as well as Davie, Robson, and Denman, in the West End originally had houses on them, and became more commercial afterwards, while others became more industrial. One good idea they had was to place corner stores here and there within residential neighborhoods, mostly gone now. All of those distinctive land use arrangements do seem like they were a form of planning or zoning.

[Docere]

Vancouver annexed two suburbs in 1929 to its south: South Vancouver (east of Cambie) and Point Grey (west of Cambie). It becomes fairly suburban outside the pre-1929 boundaries or maybe south of King Edward.

[hipster duck]

So, I’m planning a 7-10 day trip to Toronto in May, and I’m pretty excited about exploring it in a fair bit of detail based on the time I have.

Is [Eglinton] something worth checking out? It feels like a mid-speed stroad, not pedestrian friendly, lots of shops that are boarded up or in poor condition, and nothing that interesting in terms of retail or food. I think it’s fair to say I’m not a fan of grit for grits sake, and maybe during the summer the number and diversity of people makes it interesting? But isnt’t that everywhere in Toronto? Just can’t see it being high on my list of things to check out. Is it like Vancouver’s Commercial Drive but longer?

If you're an urban flaneur and you've got 10 days to kill in Toronto then, sure, why not? Eglinton West probably makes that cut. It isn't pretty - in fact, the section west of the Allen to Dufferin is one of the most haggard (urban) commercial streets in the entire city - but Ken's right that you won't find stuff along Eglinton in Vancouver if only because the immigrant groups are the ones that are underrepresented in Vancouver: Jewish, Carribean, Latin American.

My food recommendations with a timestamp in the video for reference

- Aish Tanoor (Laffas - a Jewish flatbread served like a Shawarma) at 44:30;
- Sheryl's (Jamaican) at 1:09:32
- Mexology (Mexican, obviously, specializing in Churros), on the south side, just west of Dufferin where he turned around (so imagine walking 80 meters west of 1:16:17).

St. Clair Avenue, the street he ends off on with the streetcar line, definitely is further along in the gentrification process and has more curb appeal.

[zoomer]

Excellent - thank you hipster duck, I’ll make note of those places. I was going to ask about a great shawarma place. In the past I’ve found Ottawa is great for that because of their large Lebanese population. I’m also looking for a great high rise lookout restaurant. I’ve always found the view well worth the higher cost of decent food at Harbour Centre in Vancouver.

[logan5]

Vancouver annexed two suburbs in 1929 to its south: South Vancouver (east of Cambie) and Point Grey (west of Cambie). It becomes fairly suburban outside the pre-1929 boundaries or maybe south of King Edward.

I guess everybody has a different idea of what suburban is, but most of the CoV doesn't seem very suburban. Still some pretty good neighbourhoods like Riley Park and Kerrisdale., and there's Victoria Drive, which is Vancouver's 2nd Chinatown, and there's other retail streets that serve their neighbourhoods well. Not pretty, but not suburban.

The density for the eastern half of Vancouver is 18 000 - 20 000 people per square mile. Still lots of apartments and condos, and most of the houses are subdivided into 2 to 3 units.

[Architype]

I guess everybody has a different idea of what suburban is, but most of the CoV doesn't seem very suburban. Still some pretty good neighbourhoods like Riley Park and Kerrisdale., and there's Victoria Drive, which is Vancouver's 2nd Chinatown, and there's other retail streets that serve their neighbourhoods well. Not pretty, but not suburban.

The density for the eastern half of Vancouver is 18 000 - 20 000 people per square mile. Still lots of apartments and condos, and most of the houses are subdivided into 2 to 3 units.

I also live in Vancouver's oldest (streetcar) suburb, MP; it's very inner city now, at least by my Canadian standards. I am essentially within walking distance of three or four different retail streets, without going downtown. I think of suburbs as places that have little in the way of commercial retail streets, but more focused around malls and power centres. The other definition of suburb is that of a separate municipality outside the city boundaries. Which part of Victoria Drive is the 2nd Chinatown?

[giallo]

Which part of Victoria Drive is the 2nd Chinatown?

He's probably referring to the strip of restaurants and retail between 32nd and 44th St. If we were to be more specific, maybe we could call it 'Little Hong Kong' as most of the restaurants and retail there are Cantonese.

It's a highly underrated place to eat. I love it there.


but Ken's right that you won't find stuff along Eglinton in Vancouver if only because the immigrant groups are the ones that are underrepresented in Vancouver: Jewish, Carribean, Latin American.

This has probably been the most dramatic demographic change in Vancouver. The Latin American population in Vancouver has exploded in recent years, especially in East Vancouver - particularly in the Commercial Drive/Woodlands area, although there are many downtown as well. The second most common language I hear in Vancouver these days is Spanish.

[Docere]

The density for the eastern half of Vancouver is 18 000 - 20 000 people per square mile. Still lots of apartments and condos, and most of the houses are subdivided into 2 to 3 units.

Population densities for Point Grey and south of 16th (per square mile):

West Side:

Marpole 11,118
Arbutus Ridge 10,771
South Cambie 9,376
Oakridge 8,246
West Point Grey 7,381
Kerrisdale 6,156
Dunbar-Southlands 6,103
Shaughnessy 4,844

East Side:

Kensington-Cedar Cottage 17,806
Renfrew-Collingwood 16,516
Sunset 15,271
Victoria-Fraserview 15,227
Riley Park 11,933
Killarney 11,322

Comparing Toronto and Van, SE Vancouver seems to have York/East York densities. While the West Side (sans Kitsilano/Fairview) seems comparable maybe to the Kingsway or Leaside.

[Docere]

I guess everybody has a different idea of what suburban is, but most of the CoV doesn't seem very suburban. Still some pretty good neighbourhoods like Riley Park and Kerrisdale., and there's Victoria Drive, which is Vancouver's 2nd Chinatown, and there's other retail streets that serve their neighbourhoods well. Not pretty, but not suburban.

The density for the eastern half of Vancouver is 18 000 - 20 000 people per square mile. Still lots of apartments and condos, and most of the houses are subdivided into 2 to 3 units.

16th is too close in for the "suburban" description to kick in, 41st is probably more accurate. Much of the city south of 41st was built up after WWII.

[Docere]

There's a big difference in density between the more "urban core" West Side areas (Fairview and Kitsilano) in terms of densities and the SFH-dominated areas.

East Side not so much between the "inner east" (i.e. federal riding of Vancouver East or north of 16th) and the areas south of 16th in terms of densities. Around the Hastings corridor there's a lot of industrial land which lowers the densities. Meanwhile the SE gets a boost too from immigrant family households.