Canadian Foreign Policy & Affairs II

[Xelebes]

This is a continuation of the previous thread (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=237066). Please proceed.

[acottawa]

DND finally admitted the Israelis likely didn’t destroy the hospital.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/canada-israel-gaza-hospital-1.7004384

[whatnext]

In case anyone needed a reminder of the atrocities that came from those operating out of Gaza, this is from the BBC two days ago:

Israeli community frozen as Hamas atrocities continue to emerge
Published 2 days ago
By Lucy Williamson in Nir Oz, Israel
BBC News

They are still finding bodies in the neighbourhoods near Gaza.

Warning: Some readers may find details in this article distressing.

Recovery teams on Wednesday pulled a woman's body from the rubble in Kibbutz Be'eri. She was naked, her feet bound with metal wire.

One of the team said the bodies of more than 20 children had been found nearby, tied together and burned.

Even experienced workers are struggling: deaths like this are enough to break the living....

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67165128

[casper]

DND finally admitted the Israelis likely didn’t destroy the hospital.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/canada-israel-gaza-hospital-1.7004384

Canada at very senior levels is playing a larger diplomatic role than I would have expected relative to past conflicts. Perhaps, just never noticed it.

Melanie Joly, the Canadian foreign affairs minister has been in Israel, Jordan, and Egypt. International Development Minister Ahmed Hussen is in Egypt. Canadian military intelligence are independently assessment of rocket attacks.

[someone123]

DND finally admitted the Israelis likely didn’t destroy the hospital.

When making errors you can see if there is bias in terms of the direction and how the correction is handled. Many media outlets and commentators sure took that fake news story and ran with it.

Mélanie Joly's initial response:

Bombing a hospital is an unthinkable act, and there is no doubt that doing so is absolutely illegal.

In context at the time this could only reasonably have been intended as a condemnation of Israel, and the whole tweet is speculative and misleading.

More recently she retweeted Bill Blair:

We are deeply saddened by the loss of life caused by the explosion at Al Ahli Arab hospital in Gaza on Oct. 17.

In order to determine what happened, the Prime Minister asked me to task the @CanadianForces with preparing an independent analysis. Today I am releasing its findings.

I wonder if she will ever post a conclusion describing the confirmed events and who was responsible or if this is as pointed as it will get. This Bill Blair post as it stands reminds me of the UN statements about how sad it is that people in Ukraine are dying for mysterious reasons (tsunami? earthquake?).

[whatnext]

How disgusting, we've imported our very own brownshirts to target and harass Jewish-owned businesses in Toronto:

https://twitter.com/AntisemitismCA/status/1715870414616887788

[casper]

When making errors you can see if there is bias in terms of the direction and how the correction is handled. Many media outlets and commentators sure took that fake news story and ran with it.

Mélanie Joly's initial response:



In context at the time this could only reasonably have been intended as a condemnation of Israel, and the whole tweet is speculative and misleading.

More recently she retweeted Bill Blair:



I wonder if she will ever post a conclusion describing the confirmed events and who was responsible or if this is as pointed as it will get. This Bill Blair post as it stands reminds me of the UN statements about how sad it is that people in Ukraine are dying for mysterious reasons (tsunami? earthquake?).

I think your reading more into her position that was stated.

Hours earlier Trudeau said:
“Civilian life must always be protected and international and humanitarian law must always be respected. We are working closely with allies to determine exactly what happened,”

"Canada is taking the necessary steps to look at everything before drawing conclusions on what happened."


I think she was echoing the government position, basically we don't have all the details yet to point fingers.

[savevp]

I think your reading more into her position that was stated.

Hours earlier Trudeau said:
“Civilian life must always be protected and international and humanitarian law must always be respected. We are working closely with allies to determine exactly what happened,”

"Canada is taking the necessary steps to look at everything before drawing conclusions on what happened."


I think she was echoing the government position, basically we don't have all the details yet to point fingers.

"Bombing a hospital is an unthinkable act, and there is no doubt that doing so is absolutely illegal."

That was the tweet in its entirety. Seems pretty clear the accusation is that the hospital was bombed, which was unconfirmed at the time, and subsequently all but proven false.

[casper]

"Bombing a hospital is an unthinkable act, and there is no doubt that doing so is absolutely illegal."

That was the tweet in its entirety. Seems pretty clear the accusation is that the hospital was bombed, which was unconfirmed at the time, and subsequently all but proven false.

Well it was a hospital.

I thought she was referring to an incoming object that made a "kaboom" sound, and killed many people. Does that not qualify as a "bombing"?

She had been very clear that Canada's position is Israel has a right to defend itself with due consideration for international law. Interpreting the Canadian position as somehow anti-Israel is a stretch.

[Wigs]

Channel 4 (UK) shows the horrors of War, even going into one of the unimaginably terrorized kibbutzes. They are doing some of the best reporting on this War.
**Caution**: Not for the faint of heart

report uploaded 2 hours ago
bcfYajXdX2w?feature=shared

[someone123]

She had been very clear that Canada's position is Israel has a right to defend itself with due consideration for international law. Interpreting the Canadian position as somehow anti-Israel is a stretch.

On the one hand Canada nominally supports Israel and on the other hand the foreign affairs minister jumps to strongly insinuating that they're committing war crimes before the facts are confirmed.

[Hecate]

It’s absolutely pathetic that it has taken Canada this long to recognize that this hospital incident was Hamas. The initial reaction from the government was very much one of blame. Trudeau outright said the attack was illegal and a war crime. I don’t recall him saying “we ummm will errrr umm wait ummm until we ummm have more ummm information” before making those comments. To me it seems more like pandering to a particular demographic. If they are seen as too critical of Palestine then it will backfire on them at election time with the Muslim voters. Could also be they are worried it could escalate protests and fuel more antisemitism if they condemn those Palestinians, somehow I don’t think the liberals care too much about the Jews.

[ssiguy]

On the one hand Canada nominally supports Israel and on the other hand the foreign affairs minister jumps to strongly insinuating that they're committing war crimes before the facts are confirmed.

They already are committing war crimes. The blockage of the necessities of life {ie water, food, medical supplies} is against the UN Charter and is considered a war crime. Now some aid is trickling thru but this is nearly 2 weeks after the fact and even now the Israelis are not guaranteeing that the flow will continue. From what I have heard on the CTV, it is claimed that Gaza will have to have 100 such transport trucks arrive EVERYDAY in order to provide even the basics of survival for the 2.5 million Gazans.

[whatnext]

On the one hand Canada nominally supports Israel and on the other hand the foreign affairs minister jumps to strongly insinuating that they're committing war crimes before the facts are confirmed.

At what point do we get to start referring to her as Diplomacy Barbie? :tup:

[Wigs]

They already are committing war crimes. The blockage of the necessities of life {ie water, food, medical supplies} is against the UN Charter and is considered a war crime. Now some aid is trickling thru but this is nearly 2 weeks after the fact and even now the Israelis are not guaranteeing that the flow will continue. From what I have heard on the CTV, it is claimed that Gaza will have to have 100 such transport trucks arrive EVERYDAY in order to provide even the basics of survival for the 2.5 million Gazans.

Gaza typically receives 350-400 trucks a day in better times. It's a largely urban area of 2.3 million people living in an area the size of the city of Detroit.

The Irishman spokesperson from the World Heath Organization said "we don't need 20 trucks we need closer to 2000" to arrive

[casper]

It’s absolutely pathetic that it has taken Canada this long to recognize that this hospital incident was Hamas. The initial reaction from the government was very much one of blame. Trudeau outright said the attack was illegal and a war crime. I don’t recall him saying “we ummm will errrr umm wait ummm until we ummm have more ummm information” before making those comments.

Actually what he said was:
“Civilian life must always be protected and international and humanitarian law must always be respected. We are working closely with allies to determine exactly what happened,”

"Canada is taking the necessary steps to look at everything before drawing conclusions on what happened."


To me it seems more like pandering to a particular demographic. If they are seen as too critical of Palestine then it will backfire on them at election time with the Muslim voters. Could also be they are worried it could escalate protests and fuel more antisemitism if they condemn those Palestinians, somehow I don’t think the liberals care too much about the Jews.

On the one hand Canada nominally supports Israel and on the other hand the foreign affairs minister jumps to strongly insinuating that they're committing war crimes before the facts are confirmed.


Israel is committing war crimes, that is clear. I think Canada is trying to be even-handed and diplomatic.

[Acajack]

How disgusting, we've imported our very own brownshirts to target and harass Jewish-owned businesses in Toronto:

https://twitter.com/AntisemitismCA/status/1715870414616887788

The pro-Palestine marches increasingly aren't about showing support and concern for Gaza, but are quickly descending into antisemitic intimidation. As they grow larger and larger this is starting to get concerning.

[YOWetal]

The pro-Palestine marches increasingly aren't about showing support and concern for Gaza, but are quickly descending into antisemitic intimidation. As they grow larger and larger this is starting to get concerning.

The Ottawa march despite rain and cold was very well attended. I walked through and it was a mix of various Arabs and Muslims, what I assume are general peaceniks and actually a few Jews (in Kippah or even orthodox garb) as well.

Protests don't always indicate broader political support but the general rule is you have a lot of other people who agree who don't want to go protest.

Trudeau despite what I would say was a pretty balanced (which in the North American context means pro Palestinian) approach was shouted down at a mosque. I understand there are a lot of voices in caucus demanding Canada support the Palestinians. Presumably they are hearing from constituents. As I said before we do have 5X more Muslims than Jews in this country. The white male establishment that gets more of their news from the US is shocked at the Trudeau response to this but this is not the Canada of 2001.

[whatnext]

The pro-Palestine marches increasingly aren't about showing support and concern for Gaza, but are quickly descending into antisemitic intimidation. As they grow larger and larger this is starting to get concerning.

Well diversity is our strength. Where would we be without those folks marching to support those who harboured terrorists that had no compunction about massacring children in their homes.

And these days you always have to wonder what powers are fuelling dissent behind the scenes through misinformation.

[Acajack]

I'm not surprised at all by the Trudeau response because this is the official line of the western world order and he is a part of it, though it appears to be less and less sustainable.

[whatnext]

Gaza typically receives 350-400 trucks a day in better times. It's a largely urban area of 2.3 million people living in an area the size of the city of Detroit.

The Irishman spokesperson from the World Heath Organization said "we don't need 20 trucks we need closer to 2000" to arrive

Thanks for the reminder on how small Gaza is. It makes it even more apparent how it would have been hard for its inhabitants to claim they knew nothing of an attack planned by thousands of Hamas fighters.

[savevp]

Thanks for the reminder on how small Gaza is. It makes it even more apparent how it would have been hard for its inhabitants to claim they knew nothing of an attack planned by thousands of Hamas fighters.

There are rocket launchers positioned next door to mosques, schools, and hospitals throughout Gaza. There were photos on the news this evening taken by Israeli drones showing a handful of them, not that this wasn't already well known. Hamas plan their attacks out of residential high-rises populated with civilians. None of the neighbours are aware? Everyone in Gaza knows exactly who Hamas are, they still support them, and have abetted them for years. I don't recall any anti-Hamas protests in Gaza. You reap what you sow.

EDIT: I've found some of those drone photos on the IDF twitter, see for yourself if you wonder why Israeli airstrikes are hitting UN buildings.

[Xelebes]

There are rocket launchers positioned next door to mosques, schools, and hospitals throughout Gaza. There were photos on the news this evening taken by Israeli drones showing a handful of them, not that this wasn't already well known. Hamas plan their attacks out of residential high-rises populated with civilians. Everyone in Gaza knows exactly who Hamas are, they still support them, and have abetted them for years. I don't recall any anti-Hamas protests in Gaza. You reap what you sow.

EDIT: I've found some of those drone photos on the IDF twitter, see for yourself if you wonder why Israeli airstrikes are hitting UN buildings.

There was an anti-Hamas protest in July. It ended in gunfire.

[Acajack]

Well diversity is our strength. Where would we be without those folks marching to support those who harboured terrorists that had no compunction about massacring children in their homes.

And these days you always have to wonder what powers are fuelling dissent behind the scenes through misinformation.

Another concern is how these marches are snowballing and almost becoming an "in" thing almost a viral trend, in spite of how often and quickly they can flip from pro-Palestine to pro-Hamas and anti-semitism.

[Acajack]

Which brings to mind another thing, if you are the slightest bit self-aware you know full that the march you are part of has a damned good chance of segueing towards support for Hamas or anti-semitism. These may not be your cup of tea personally, but if you don't mind having these people walking beside you that much, that says something about YOU too.

[savevp]

There was an anti-Hamas protest in July. It ended in gunfire.

Yet polls as recently as July (Washington Institute) suggest close to 60% of Gazans hold a positive view of Hamas. That may be higher now.

I mean, Arab people had no qualms about taking to the streets when they thought Israel bombed the hospital. Now that we know it was a Palestinian rocket (no doubt aimed at Israeli civilians), where's the protest now?

[casper]

There are rocket launchers positioned next door to mosques, schools, and hospitals throughout Gaza. There were photos on the news this evening taken by Israeli drones showing a handful of them, not that this wasn't already well known. Hamas plan their attacks out of residential high-rises populated with civilians. None of the neighbours are aware? Everyone in Gaza knows exactly who Hamas are, they still support them, and have abetted them for years. I don't recall any anti-Hamas protests in Gaza. You reap what you sow.

EDIT: I've found some of those drone photos on the IDF twitter, see for yourself if you wonder why Israeli airstrikes are hitting UN buildings.

I don't think anyone is question that Hamas is a terrorist organisation that should be controlled and eliminated.

That said, it also does not give Israel blanket authority to block the red cross and other humanitarian efforts to ensure civilians have access to food, water and medical care. It also does not give the Israel military the authority to kill civilians because it is to hard.

[savevp]

That said, it also does not give Israel blanket authority to block the red cross and other humanitarian efforts to ensure civilians have access to food, water and medical care.

These things have now been allowed to pass. Through Egypt, I should add, who have had just as much complicity in blocking aid through their own border. Israel doesn't encircle Gaza.

It also does not give the Israel military the authority to kill civilians because it is to hard.


Israel is being accused of war crimes for ordering Gazans to vacate the North so they won't be killed. They also get accused of war crimes when civilians get killed. Hamas operate every aspect of their terrorist organisation amongst civilians in a densely populated area.

If you agree that Hamas must be removed, then you must logically accept civilian infrastructure will be destroyed. And civilians must thusly be relocated, or face peril if they can't or won't.

Even Palestinian rockets can't avoid killing Palestinian civilians in such an environment.

[whatnext]

I don't think anyone is question that Hamas is a terrorist organisation that should be controlled and eliminated.

That said, it also does not give Israel blanket authority to block the red cross and other humanitarian efforts to ensure civilians have access to food, water and medical care. It also does not give the Israel military the authority to kill civilians because it is to hard.

Egypt is always able to welcome in their Muslim brothers and sisters from Gaza.

[casper]

These things have now been allowed to pass. Through Egypt, I should add, who have had just as much complicity in blocking aid through their own border. Israel doesn't encircle Gaza.

Egypt is not at "war" with anyone. Israel is.

Israel is being accused of war crimes for ordering Gazans to vacate the North so they won't be killed. They also get accused of war crimes when civilians get killed. Hamas operate every aspect of their terrorist organisation amongst civilians in a densely populated area.

If you agree that Hamas must be removed, then you must logically accept civilian infrastructure will be destroyed. And civilians must thusly be relocated, or face peril if they can't or won't.

Even Palestinian rockets can't avoid killing Palestinian civilians in such an environment.

I think you will have a hard time finding anyone who is going to defend what Hamas is doing.

The end does not justify the means. It is simply wrong to claim it is acceptable to kill innocent civilians, children, babies and all because it is the most convenient way of killing a terrorist.

Demanding civilians relocate from one side of a high density city to another so it can be carpet bombed is an act of revenge and a way of punishing a civilian population. Does anyone believe it is going to be effective in eliminating Hamas.

Egypt is always able to welcome in their Muslim brothers and sisters from Gaza.

To what end? Are you suggesting Egypt should setup a refugee camp for 1-2 million people so Israel can carpet bomb their homes?

The Canadian policy on this has been very balanced. Neither side is behaving in a particularly ethical way.

[shreddog]

Egypt is not at "war" with anyone. Israel is. I get why Egypt does not allow refugees in, but why does Egypt restrict humanitarians supplies to cross, especially as you say “they are not at war”?

[shreddog]

There was an anti-Hamas protest in July. It ended in gunfire.Ukrainians are dying such that don’t live under Russian rule. Iranian women and men are dying protesting their countries approach in killing women for not “covering up”.

Either Palestinians support Hamas or need to “fight” to get rid of them. If they’re not willing to fight for a Hamas-free Palestine, it’s hard to believe that they don’t support them and their methods.

[Truenorth00]

At what point do we get to start referring to her as Diplomacy Barbie? :tup:

This kind of misogyny was disgusting when applied to Katherine McKenna and it's gross to apply to Joli. And I say this as someone who doesn't think Joli has been great in her job.

I honestly wonder if some of you actually talk to any women at all. I would be right pissed if somebody talked about my daughter, wife or mother like this. Or maybe y'all just don't care about the women in your lives?

You can criticize the performance of a woman professional without being a misogynist prick.

[Truenorth00]

Ukrainians are dying such that don’t live under Russian rule. Iranian women and men are dying protesting their countries approach in killing women for not “covering up”.

Either Palestinians support Hamas or need to “fight” to get rid of them. If they’re not willing to fight for a Hamas-free Palestine, it’s hard to believe that they don’t support them and their methods.

To be fair, Palestine did actually have a civil war of sorts. That why Hamas only has Gaza left. And part of Israel's failed strategy has been that their actions in the West Bank with settlement expansion is undermining Fatah and strengthening Hamas.

[Truenorth00]

The Five Eyes Intelligence Directors held an unprecedented joint interview with 60 Minutes speaking out about China. Worth the watch.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/china-stealing-technology-secrets-five-eyes-intelligence-leaders-warn-60-minutes-transcript/

[Acajack]

This kind of misogyny was disgusting when applied to Katherine McKenna and it's gross to apply to Joli. And I say this as someone who doesn't think Joli has been great in her job.

I honestly wonder if some of you actually talk to any women at all. I would be right pissed if somebody talked about my daughter, wife or mother like this. Or maybe y'all just don't care about the women in your lives?

You can criticize the performance of a woman professional without being a misogynist prick.

It's been quite obvious for a while and on several topics that many, many SSPers don't have much contact with women in their lives.

[YOWetal]

This kind of misogyny was disgusting when applied to Katherine McKenna and it's gross to apply to Joli. And I say this as someone who doesn't think Joli has been great in her job.

I honestly wonder if some of you actually talk to any women at all. I would be right pissed if somebody talked about my daughter, wife or mother like this. Or maybe y'all just don't care about the women in your lives?

You can criticize the performance of a woman professional without being a misogynist prick.

Mostly agree with you especially that particular phrase. But under this government (and some of the last) we have ministers chosen for their appearance not competence. Mostly women but men as well. Bernier for example. Can we not call that out? Trudeau gets accused of being a pretty boy obsessed with his clothes. Is this Misandrist?

[jamincan]

It's been quite obvious for a while and on several topics that many, many SSPers don't have much contact with women in their lives.

Is this a reference to other implications you have made that trans-advocates must necessarily be anti-women or not know any women?

[Acajack]

Is this a reference to other implications you have made that trans-advocates must necessarily be anti-women or not know any women?

You're free to intepret it any way you like.

I call 'em as I see 'em.

[lio45]

Is this a reference to other implications you have made that trans-advocates must necessarily be anti-women or not know any women?Well I do recall a conversation where some were arguing that “even though we all agree the data shows teenage girls rapes would statistically increase if we did this, it’s a reasonable price to pay in the grand scheme of things”.

[savevp]

I think you will have a hard time finding anyone who is going to defend what Hamas is doing.

The end does not justify the means. It is simply wrong to claim it is acceptable to kill innocent civilians, children, babies and all because it is the most convenient way of killing a terrorist.

Demanding civilians relocate from one side of a high density city to another so it can be carpet bombed is an act of revenge and a way of punishing a civilian population. Does anyone believe it is going to be effective in eliminating Hamas.



How else should Israel possibly kill the terrorists? They live and walk amongst civilians. There is ample evidence to show the urban areas are rife with Hamas infrastructure. If you support the eradication of Hamas and its infrastructure , you must support what you've falsely called "carpet bombing." Or you must support a massive ground invasion, which I suspect many will not.

And you either support Israel's effort to remove as many civilians as possible before the ground invasion or you must accept massive civilian losses.

It's very simple, you can't destroy Hamas without causing large scale destruction in Gaza because Hamas operate from civilian areas. Saying Israel can't cause this destruction is either ignorance of the nature of this war or a veiled desire to see Israel lose it. À la the Ukraine ceasefire argument.

[casper]

Mostly agree with you especially that particular phrase. But under this government (and some of the last) we have ministers chosen for their appearance not competence. Mostly women but men as well. Bernier for example. Can we not call that out? Trudeau gets accused of being a pretty boy obsessed with his clothes. Is this Misandrist?

If we take Katherine McKenna as an example.

After leaving politics where did she end up? Did she end up selling coffee at Starbucks? No not exactly.

She is runing her own environmental consulting firm, is a visiting fellow at Columbia University, served as chair of the UN High-Level Expert Group on the Net-Zero Emissions Commitments of Non-State Entities. (per wikipedia)

I guess outside of Canada the rest of the world thinks she is competent.

[casper]

How else should Israel possibly kill the terrorists? They live and walk amongst civilians. There is ample evidence to show the urban areas are rife with Hamas infrastructure. If you support the eradication of Hamas and its infrastructure , you must support what you've falsely called "carpet bombing." Or you must support a massive ground invasion, which I suspect many will not.

And you either support Israel's effort to remove as many civilians as possible before the ground invasion or you must accept massive civilian losses.

It's very simple, you can't destroy Hamas without causing large scale destruction in Gaza because Hamas operate from civilian areas. Saying Israel can't cause this destruction is either ignorance of the nature of this war or a veiled desire to see Israel lose it. À la the Ukraine ceasefire argument.

Good question. How did the UK deal with the IRA?

Israel is not going to solve this problem by killing people. What motivates people to join Hamas? Perhaps it has something to do with the impact Israel forces have on family members living in Gaza? Killing civilians is going to motivate more people to join Hamas.

[acottawa]

Mostly agree with you especially that particular phrase. But under this government (and some of the last) we have ministers chosen for their appearance not competence. Mostly women but men as well. Bernier for example. Can we not call that out? Trudeau gets accused of being a pretty boy obsessed with his clothes. Is this Misandrist?

Joly has a law degree from the university of Montreal and an MJ from Oxford, and worked at two prestigious law firms in Montreal. She is a smart, successful person who happens to be good looking.

I think she has been too political to be a good Foreign Minister, particularly in the politics of her own riding, but that isn’t a competency issue or a physical appearance issue.

[acottawa]

Good question. How did the UK deal with the IRA?

Israel is not going to solve this problem by killing people. What motivates people to join Hamas? Perhaps it has something to do with the impact Israel forces have on family members living in Gaza? Killing civilians is going to motivate more people to join Hamas.

Israel was generally fairly generous with Gaza, withdrawing completely, leaving some economic infrastructure. Gaza immediately elected Hamas with a policy of perpetual war.

[Acajack]

Joly has a law degree from the university of Montreal and an MJ from Oxford, and worked at two prestigious law firms in Montreal. She is a smart, successful person who happens to be good looking.

I think she has been too political to be a good Foreign Minister, particularly in the politics of her own riding, but that isn’t a competency issue or a physical appearance issue.

All true but it's also arguable that she's underperformed in most Cabinet roles she's been given, relative to her CV which you have outlined here.

(She's also one of the nicer politicians I've had the pleasure or displeasure of meeting.)

[acottawa]

All true but it's also arguable that she's underperformed in most Cabinet roles she's been given, relative to her CV which you have outlined here.

(She's also one of the nicer politicians I've had the pleasure or displeasure of meeting.)

I don’t claim to understand the nuances of Quebec politics but I understand she was was dumped from Heritage for pissing off the Devoir crowd by refusing to impose a Netflix tax and then failing to explain it on Tout le monde en parle. I am not sure that is underperformance in the usual sense of that word.

[Truenorth00]

Mostly agree with you especially that particular phrase. But ....

Never a good sign when someone tries to justify bigotry. There's no need for a "But" here.


...under this government (and some of the last) we have ministers chosen for their appearance not competence. Mostly women but men as well. Bernier for example. Can we not call that out?

Sure call that out. But unless you're being specific, calling a woman "... Barbie" is a ridiculous ad hominem. Again, I ask, would you accept this kind of language against women in your life?


Trudeau gets accused of being a pretty boy obsessed with his clothes. Is this Misandrist?

Yes it is.

I don't give a shit what Trudeau wears. And neither should you. We are all capable of criticizing his performance and his government's policies without being obsessed about his fashion choices. The rare exception to that is when fashion impacts his job (like his first trip to India).

Incidentally, there's probably significant overlap between the misandrists who obsess over Trudeau's sticks and misogynists who call ministers of state "Barbie" for no other reason than their appearance.

[Truenorth00]

All true but it's also arguable that she's underperformed in most Cabinet roles she's been given, relative to her CV which you have outlined here.


She can be an absolute shit Minister (I think she's more in the mediocre category) and it still wouldn't justify calling her "Barbie".

[Acajack]

She can be an absolute shit Minister (I think she's more in the mediocre category) and it still wouldn't justify calling her "Barbie".

Oh, agree 100%.

[Truenorth00]

Israel was generally fairly generous with Gaza, withdrawing completely, leaving some economic infrastructure. Gaza immediately elected Hamas with a policy of perpetual war.

How much should that be held against the Gazans of today, who have never had a choice to elect somebody else since?

I don't know the answer. But this doesn't exactly seem fair.

[Hecate]

Good question. How did the UK deal with the IRA?

Israel is not going to solve this problem by killing people. What motivates people to join Hamas? Perhaps it has something to do with the impact Israel forces have on family members living in Gaza? Killing civilians is going to motivate more people to join Hamas.

If the Palestinian majority wants nothing to do with Hamas, where are they? Where were they on October 6th? You think you’d see thousands of Palestinians flocking to Israel for protection and volunteering to sign up and help liberate their own people, but this isn’t happening. THEY WANT THIS SHIT.

Imagine hating Jews so much you kill over a thousand of them on a holiday weekend. you’re burning and slaughtering their babies, raping and torturing their women and men. then when Israel retaliated and blocks you off, cuts off your aid and supplies, you have the fucking audacity to shout WAR CRIMES! Hypocrites much?

[OldDartmouthMark]

I've been hearing and reading that Hamas acted at this time in order to thwart a potential Israel - Saudi Arabia peace agreement. Apparently Iran is afraid that this would lessen their power in the middle east, and thus has backed action to goad Israel into war.

I'm not going to say much more than that, as I am far from being an expert on politics/religious strife in the area, but I'm reading a lot of simplistic judgements in this thread that don't seem to tackle the complexity of this situation. There's a lot more going on than meets the eye, but we seem to get stuck on specific details intending to place blame on one side or the other for specific acts that don't speak to the big picture.

Over and above that, just speaking for myself as a Canadian citizen, I am starting to resent protests being brought to our streets attempting to influence opinions on religious wars that have been going on for as long as people have existed there. I am empathetic to the plight of Palestinian people who have been used as pawns in a terrorists' organization whose goal (as stated by their own leadership) has been to eradicate Jews and take back Israel. It's horrible what is going on there, but when every protest I've seen on television has people holding signs that, in effect, say 'give back Gaza to Paletinians', it purveys the idea that the protests aren't about stopping the killing of innocent civilians, but about stepping up the hostilities - fighting a larger war.

The two-state solution, that was being worked on for some decades is a larger issue that would only be able to happen with the elimination of Hamas, and a change in Israel's leadership. Inserting provocative signage into a protest that is supposed to be about protecting innocent civilians shines an entirely different light upon the purpose of the protests. IMHO.

:2cents:

[Tvisforme]

It’s absolutely pathetic that it has taken Canada this long to recognize that this hospital incident was Hamas....

So, I guess you'll be fuming about Britain's Conservative government as well, given that PM Sunak announced just this morning (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/23/gaza-hospital-blast-caused-by-militants-rocket-uk-intelligence-sunak-israel-palestine) in their House of Commons that "the UK government judges that the explosion [at Gaza's Al-Ahli hospital] was likely caused by a missile or part of one that was launched from within Gaza towards Israel"...

[YOWetal]

Never a good sign when someone tries to justify bigotry. There's no need for a "But" here.



Sure call that out. But unless you're being specific, calling a woman "... Barbie" is a ridiculous ad hominem. Again, I ask, would you accept this kind of language against women in your life?



Yes it is.

I don't give a shit what Trudeau wears. And neither should you. We are all capable of criticizing his performance and his government's policies without being obsessed about his fashion choices. The rare exception to that is when fashion impacts his job (like his first trip to India).

Incidentally, there's probably significant overlap between the misandrists who obsess over Trudeau's sticks and misogynists who call ministers of state "Barbie" for no other reason than their appearance.

This government is obsessed with image over substance. Their clothes choices reflect this. Men and Women, but I know it's bigotry to mention this about women. Sure.

[casper]

If the Palestinian majority wants nothing to do with Hamas, where are they? Where were they on October 6th? You think you’d see thousands of Palestinians flocking to Israel for protection and volunteering to sign up and help liberate their own people, but this isn’t happening. THEY WANT THIS SHIT.

Imagine hating Jews so much you kill over a thousand of them on a holiday weekend. you’re burning and slaughtering their babies, raping and torturing their women and men. then when Israel retaliated and blocks you off, cuts off your aid and supplies, you have the fucking audacity to shout WAR CRIMES! Hypocrites much?

Given that perspective I can see why Israel ended up in this situation and there is no clear path out.

Sad.

[YOWetal]

I've been hearing and reading that Hamas acted at this time in order to thwart a potential Israel - Saudi Arabia peace agreement. Apparently Iran is afraid that this would lessen their power in the middle east, and thus has backed action to goad Israel into war.

I'm not going to say much more than that, as I am far from being an expert on politics/religious strife in the area, but I'm reading a lot of simplistic judgements in this thread that don't seem to tackle the complexity of this situation. There's a lot more going on than meets the eye, but we seem to get stuck on specific details intending to place blame on one side or the other for specific acts that don't speak to the big picture.

Over and above that, just speaking for myself as a Canadian citizen, I am starting to resent protests being brought to our streets attempting to influence opinions on religious wars that have been going on for as long as people have existed there. I am empathetic to the plight of Palestinian people who have been used as pawns in a terrorists' organization whose goal (as stated by their own leadership) has been to eradicate Jews and take back Israel. It's horrible what is going on there, but when every protest I've seen on television has people holding signs that, in effect, say 'give back Gaza to Paletinians', it purveys the idea that the protests aren't about stopping the killing of innocent civilians, but about stepping up the hostilities - fighting a larger war.

The two-state solution, that was being worked on for some decades is a larger issue that would only be able to happen with the elimination of Hamas, and a change in Israel's leadership. Inserting provocative signage into a protest that is supposed to be about protecting innocent civilians shines an entirely different light upon the purpose of the protests. IMHO.

:2cents:

People can protest in this country. More effectively they are contacting their MPs and swaying Canadian government policy. The protestors are against what they see as an Israeli Apartheid system. The accuracy of that depends on when you start the historical clock and how temporary a 56 year occupation is. They see everything through the lens of colonizer and settler. There only relevant question is who is indigenous to the area?

[acottawa]

How much should that be held against the Gazans of today, who have never had a choice to elect somebody else since?

I don't know the answer. But this doesn't exactly seem fair.

I see your point, but “Hamas was created by Israeli policies” gets the causality exactly wrong.

[O-tacular]

It is possible to say that Hamas' massacre was evil while also stating that the IDF bombing neighbourhoods and shelters filled with kids as payback is also wrong. Both things can exist. The casualties in both are innocent children. Israel is rapidly losing respect and support carrying on like this.

[OldDartmouthMark]

People can protest in this country.

Absolutely, and I'm free to state my opinion on how these protests are being conducted.

More effectively they are contacting their MPs and swaying Canadian government policy. The protestors are against what they see as an Israeli Apartheid system. The accuracy of that depends on when you start the historical clock and how temporary a 56 year occupation is. They see everything through the lens of colonizer and settler. There only relevant question is who is indigenous to the area?

Meanwhile, the scope of the situation is so much broader than a simple 'who has a right to this land' binary argument. Plus, the solution of 'kill the other side so we can have the land' has also not accomplished anything... ever. Nor will it, other than to prolong the hate and the wars/terrorism, and the devastation to the very people who are being victimized by both sides. So what do we actually do about it, and how much of a chance for actual peace occurring by means of some agreement and compromise (by both sides)?

Which is why I am frustrated over these conversations. Again... only IMHO.

[savevp]

Good question. How did the UK deal with the IRA?



By putting up with regular terrorist bombings, flare-ups in violence, segregation with walls, and a dysfunctional local government torn between two factions.

Sounds familiar, actually.

[someone123]

Protest rights aside there is the question of whether behaviour is helpful or misguided and how the foreign affairs minister and others in important positions should act. If you are a federal minister the bar for the quality of your official communications should be higher.

When it comes to diaspora politics it is common to see intensely motivated interest groups influencing large numbers of uninformed people who are eager to be the good guys. In Canada I think there is a somewhat toxic interaction between special interest groups who know how to push the right buttons and low information views about doing the right thing around very abstract social justice issues like saving indigenous people and fighting colonizers. Often if you dig into these views they're not truly enlightened or progressive. For example a noble savage trope is often built in. You even saw this with pro-Ukraine people talking about them like they were Ewoks in Star Wars when in reality they have a sophisticated military with complicated requirements (often fought against by the anti-war people).

To take another example, I don't think we really get something resembling the median voter's views determining Canada-India relations. It's more that the vast majority were checked out and a tiny minority had outsized influence. When the issue became nationally known it was because it was already in crisis mode.

[lio45]

It's horrible what is going on there, but when every protest I've seen on television has people holding signs that, in effect, say 'give back Gaza to Paletinians'For the record, Israel did pretty much exactly that 15+ years ago, and what the Palestinians did with their newfound freedom was to democratically elect baby-decapitating terrorists. So, "been there done that" and it's not a functional solution. Next!

[lio45]

Plus, the solution of 'kill the other side so we can have the land' has also not accomplished anything... ever.Technically, it works great -- IF you can pull it off.

"Beothuks making a serious claim to all the primiest Downtown St. John's real estate in 2023" is at least one problem we aren't having ... :P

[Acajack]

People can protest in this country. More effectively they are contacting their MPs and swaying Canadian government policy. The protestors are against what they see as an Israeli Apartheid system. The accuracy of that depends on when you start the historical clock and how temporary a 56 year occupation is. They see everything through the lens of colonizer and settler. There only relevant question is who is indigenous to the area?

We have the right to protest just about anything we want in this country and no one serious is suggesting that be taken away or even restricted.

But as I've said many times before a lot of the pro-Palestinian protests are derailing too much towards anti-semitism, apologism for terrorism and intimidation of one's fellow citizens who happen to be Jewish.

I honestly don't have a solution to control it but no one is going to stop me from deploring and condemning that stuff.

[Acajack]

This is kinda related to this topic.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/jama-ndp-caucus-1.7005056

[lio45]

This is kinda related to this topic.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/jama-ndp-caucus-1.7005056My view on stuff like this is very clear: no one is ever owed a party's banner to run under. If she thinks Hamilton Centre voters specifically voted for her over voting for the NDP in general, she can run as an independent next election, and we'll see what happens.

[Wigs]

Israel was generally fairly generous with Gaza, withdrawing completely, leaving some economic infrastructure. Gaza immediately elected Hamas with a policy of perpetual war.

If you call controlling everything that goes into and out of a cage, including humans fairly generous. Gazans have been cut off from the rest of Palestinians for 17 years, not to mention the rest of the world!

Israel cut off water and electricity to Gaza with the flip of a switch.

Don't act like Gaza had autonomy. Autonomy within a cage is not the same thing. Israel denies Palestinians of basic human rights and controls near every aspect of daily life, even from "outside the walls" that failed miserably and gave Israelis a false sense of security.

Many Gaza residents cannot even get travel permits to visit friends and family in the West Bank, let alone leave 140 sq miles.

Many Gaza residents are refused Israeli work permits even though they have skills that Israel needs and can make a lot more money outside the walls of Gaza

They have no airport (blown up by Israel in 2001), no seaport. Israel dictates how far they can fish or use their boat in the Mediterranean.

All Palestinians, if they get travel permits/visas have to go all the way to Jordan just to fly.

Was it foolish to elect Hamas, indeed. They were listed as "Change and Reform" party on the ballot and not Hamas or terrorist organization. Once Hamas got control they strong armed Fatah/Palestinian Authority out of Gaza entirely.

Reposting Ali Velshi from May 2021
gKkjPtleWEU?feature=shared

[OldDartmouthMark]

We have the right to protest just about anything we want in this country and no one serious is suggesting that be taken away or even restricted.

But as I've said many times before a lot of the pro-Palestinian protests are derailing too much towards anti-semitism, apologism for terrorism and intimidation of one's fellow citizens who happen to be Jewish.

I honestly don't have a solution to control it but no one is going to stop me from deploring and condemning that stuff.

This.

[YOWetal]

We have the right to protest just about anything we want in this country and no one serious is suggesting that be taken away or even restricted.

But as I've said many times before a lot of the pro-Palestinian protests are derailing too much towards anti-semitism, apologism for terrorism and intimidation of one's fellow citizens who happen to be Jewish.

I honestly don't have a solution to control it but no one is going to stop me from deploring and condemning that stuff.

Wandering through the Ottawa protest it was anti-Isreal in general. When that is considered anti-semitic it is easy to see how protestors will protest a restaurant with Isreali roots.

Totally agree condemning it is valid and I'm on board with that but the politics of this issue have changed.

[whatnext]

My view on stuff like this is very clear: no one is ever owed a party's banner to run under. If she thinks Hamilton Centre voters specifically voted for her over voting for the NDP in general, she can run as an independent next election, and we'll see what happens.

Yep. Good riddance to bad rubbish IMHO.

[1overcosc]

So, I guess you'll be fuming about Britain's Conservative government as well, given that PM Sunak announced just this morning (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/23/gaza-hospital-blast-caused-by-militants-rocket-uk-intelligence-sunak-israel-palestine) in their House of Commons that "the UK government judges that the explosion [at Gaza's Al-Ahli hospital] was likely caused by a missile or part of one that was launched from within Gaza towards Israel"...

PM Sunak didn't immediately jump towards blaming Israel on the day it happened, and then refuse to personally admit he was wrong.

I'd be a lot less annoyed at JT and Joly if they personally admitted they were wrong and apologized. But nope, they got another minister to quietly announce it via press release on a Sunday night, all because JT is too much of an arrogant prick to just admit that he made a mistake.

[thurmas]

Zelensky and Turkey will have talks to see if they can get peace talks started wit Russia so far Russia not participating.

[Truenorth00]

Zelensky and Turkey will have talks to see if they can get peace talks started wit Russia so far Russia not participating.

Russia will not negotiate till US elections have passed. Putin believes he can outwait the West. And I'm not sure he's entirely wrong on that calculation. We have made some terrible mistakes in not ramping support to Ukraine earlier. Putin sees weakness in that.

[someone123]

Europe was really slow. I wonder if they have to date meaningfully increased artillery shell production. In theory had they made good decisions I think they could have had a much larger impact.

I don't think Putin's strategy of waiting for the US to give up is completely off but if I were him I wouldn't feel great about it. There is a lot of messiness and inertia to the political process and Donald Trump is erratic, not a Putin supporter. I wonder how much Ukraine aid that will be pledged before the next president has actually been used or depleted.

I am skeptical of the people who say we know nothing will change because Ukraine has received $XB in aid and didn't retake much land in the summer. I'd be more convinced by accounting based on delivered hardware. People keep talking about F-16s and 0 F-16s have been delivered. Ukraine got a token number of Abrams tanks the other day. I don't think anybody knows how many ATACMS missiles they received?

[Acajack]

People can protest in this country. More effectively they are contacting their MPs and swaying Canadian government policy. The protestors are against what they see as an Israeli Apartheid system. The accuracy of that depends on when you start the historical clock and how temporary a 56 year occupation is. They see everything through the lens of colonizer and settler. There only relevant question is who is indigenous to the area?

If you look back at 2000 years or more of history, Jews are arguably the closest thing to an indigenous people in that part of the world. Their population in the area has had incredible variation though over the centuries, and there have been periods where there were very very few Jews there.

But it is their historical home. No doubt about it.

(This doesn't preclude it from being the historical home of other peoples, of course.)

[casper]

If you look back at 2000 years or more of history, Jews are arguably the closest thing to an indigenous people in that part of the world. Their population in the area has had incredible variation though over the centuries, and there have been periods where there were very very few Jews there.

But it is their historical home. No doubt about it.

(This doesn't preclude it from being the historical home of other peoples, of course.)

There is 2.3 Million people living in Gaza. Many have been there for generations. Expecting them to move into refuge campus is simply wrong.

Expecting the Jews to leave is also wrong.

They need to sit down and figure out how they are going to live together without killing each other.

That should be the Canadian position on all of this.

We have already labelled Hamas as a terrorist organization, as they are, and we should not be surprised when they do terrorist like things.

[Acajack]

There is 2.3 Million people living in Gaza. Many have been there for generations. Expecting them to move into refuge campus is simply wrong.

Expecting the Jews to leave is also wrong.

They need to sit down and figure out how they are going to live together without killing each other.

That should be the Canadian position on all of this.

We have already labelled Hamas as a terrorist organization, as they are, and we should not be surprised when they do terrorist like things.

I was just answering the question, and also said that the indigeneity of the Jewish population in the region doesn't preclude it from being the legitimate home of other peoples.

[logan5]

Why is Israel insisting hospitals should be evacuated? It's the one place where children being bombed can be saved. On the surface it sounds very cruel and very inhumane, but the Israeli's must have a good reason for doing this, right?

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-67199156

[someone123]

Why is Israel insisting hospitals should be evacuated? It's the one place where children being bombed can be saved. On the surface it sounds very cruel and very inhumane, but the Israeli's must have a good reason for doing this, right?

I don't think it's possible for Israel to heavily bomb Gaza city without risk to the hospitals or other civilian targets. Hamas uses human shields and continues to fire rockets at Israel including from inside the urban area, so Israel has to choose between their own civilians getting hit by rockets (for an indefinite period) and killing civilians in Gaza.

Israel didn't tell all Gazans to evacuate. They announced an evacuation zone around Gaza city. They also evacuated part of Israel. It's true that in any war zone there are people who can't or won't leave, and there might not be resources for displaced people. But often in war you are choosing between a lot of bad options.

The best outcome would be for Hamas to surrender and return the hostages. So far they'd rather watch civilians in Gaza go through hell.

[logan5]

Interesting part of that video I posted is where a grieving mother is saying "fuck Hamas", and the person who is with her is trying to cover her mouth with his hand. Obviously the people of Gaza are afraid of Hamas. They have to worry about Israel killing them from the outside, and Hamas killing them on the inside.

[Tvisforme]

There was quite a fuss at the tail end of the previous thread ("Unf***ingbelievable, Junior is going to squander your tax dollars again bailing out Canadians of Convenience in Lebanon") regarding plans for potentially evacuating Canadian citizens from Lebanon. Will there be the same reaction to tonight's news, or was it just another "F*** Trudeau" moment? Let's find out:

U.S. readies plans for mass evacuations if Gaza war escalates
Officials said that the more than 600,000 Americans living in Israel and Lebanon are of particular concern, but they stressed that an operation of such magnitude is a worst-case scenario

By Yasmeen Abutaleb, Dan Lamothe, John Hudson and Michael Birnbaum
October 23, 2023 at 10:29 p.m. EDT

The Biden administration is preparing for the possibility that hundreds of thousands of American citizens will require evacuation from the Middle East if the bloodshed in Gaza cannot be contained, according to four officials familiar with the U.S. government’s contingency planning.

The specter of such an operation comes as Israeli forces, aided by U.S. weapons and military advisers, prepare for what is widely expected to be a perilous ground offensive against Hamas militants responsible for the stunning cross-border attack that has reignited hostilities. The officials, speaking on the condition of anonymity to detail internal deliberations, said Americans living in Israel and neighboring Lebanon are of particular concern, though they stressed that an evacuation of that magnitude is considered a worst-case scenario and that other outcomes are seen as more likely.

Still, one official said, it “would be irresponsible not to have a plan for everything.”

(story continues (https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/10/23/us-evacuation-plans-israel-lebanon-hamas-war/))

[Truenorth00]

A British Labour MP is claiming (in the British HoC) he was pulled aside and searched at both ends of his trip (Heathrow-Montreal) by Air Canada staff simply because his name was Mohammad. He claims he was allowed through only when other members of UK contingent intervened. He said he has received an apology from the Parliamentary Secretary for Immigration in Canada, but will be taking it up with the Canadian High Commissioner in London.

https://amp.theguardian.com/news/2023/oct/23/mp-stopped-from-boarding-air-canada-flight-as-his-name-was-mohammad

I'm wondering if he somehow got misidentified on some list for Air Canada.

[Djeffery]

A British Labour MP is claiming (in the British HoC) he was pulled aside and searched at both ends of his trip (Heathrow-Montreal) by Air Canada staff simply because his name was Mohammad. He claims he was allowed through only when other members of UK contingent intervened. He said he has received an apology from the Parliamentary Secretary for Immigration in Canada, but will be taking it up with the Canadian High Commissioner in London.

https://amp.theguardian.com/news/2023/oct/23/mp-stopped-from-boarding-air-canada-flight-as-his-name-was-mohammad

I'm wondering if he somehow got misidentified on some list for Air Canada.

Considering it's basically the equivalent of Smith in the Muslim world, it probably happens way too frequently. I wonder how many others get an apology when they aren't an MP?

[Acajack]

What's on the mind of Joe Biden versus what's on the minds of many Democrats.

White House spokeswoman Karine Jean-Pierre is asked a clear question about anti-semitism, and answers by going on about islamophobia and Arab-Americans, then remembers what the question was about and slips "and Jews" into there.

https://twitter.com/ClayTravis/status/1716566667172475260

[lio45]

There was quite a fuss at the tail end of the previous thread ("Unf***ingbelievable, Junior is going to squander your tax dollars again bailing out Canadians of Convenience in Lebanon") regarding plans for potentially evacuating Canadian citizens from Lebanon. Will there be the same reaction to tonight's news, or was it just another "F*** Trudeau" moment? Let's find out:As Truenorth explained to you, Uncle Sam actually taxes its overseas citizens (one of very few countries to do so). They are not parasites like our “Canadians of Convenience”.

[MolsonExport]

overseas Canadians are parasites?

[Acajack]

overseas Canadians are parasites?

I think "Canadians of convenience" is the usual term. It has the advantage of being nicer than "parasites", plus it's more accurate relative to how these people operate.

[MonctonRad]

overseas Canadians are parasites?

Canadians of convenience I suppose - most notably Lebanese or Hong Kong dual nationals who choose to live in their home countries, and only carry Canadian passports so they have a safe haven to flee to when the shit hits the fan.

Possibly also snowbirds who choose to live in Florida for six months less a day every year, spending their Canadian pension funds outside of the country.

[YOWetal]

I think "Canadians of convenience" is the usual term. It has the advantage of being nicer than "parasites", plus it's more accurate relative to how these people operate.

Living in Canada makes you not a citizen of convenience? How many are doing public service, serving in the military or frankly contributing at all? We don't provide healthcare to non-residents, do allow their children to pay Canadian rates in University, don't give the child benefits and don't tax them. Evacuation should be limited to those resident in Canada? There is an argument to be made for sure if you live in Lebanon you shouldn't be evacuated to Canada but that's not how we do it currently. We seem to charge people discouraging frivolous evacuation. Lots of those in Lebanon probably still owe money from the last time we evacuated them.

[Acajack]

Living in Canada makes you not a citizen of convenience? How many are doing public service, serving in the military or frankly contributing at all? We don't provide healthcare to non-residents, do allow their children to pay Canadian rates in University, don't give the child benefits and don't tax them. Evacuation should be limited to those resident in Canada? There is an argument to be made for sure if you live in Lebanon you shouldn't be evacuated to Canada but that's not how we do it currently. We seem to charge people discouraging frivolous evacuation. Lots of those in Lebanon probably still owe money from the last time we evacuated them.

Not sure what you mean here.

[YOWetal]

Not sure what you mean here.

I'll be blunter. Most Canadians living in Canada are degenerates who contribute nothing positive to the country so I have no problem spending a few $million to evacuate anyone with a Canadian passport. Many who are brand ambassadors abroad for Canada. A Canadian is a Canadian.

[Acajack]

I'll be blunter. Most Canadians living in Canada are degenerates who contribute nothing positive to the country so I have no problem spending a few $million to evacuate anyone with a Canadian passport. Many who are brand ambassadors abroad for Canada. A Canadian is a Canadian.

I am not really an advocate for the hardline against "Canadians of convenience", though I'd stop short of saying they really are brand ambassadors for us abroad. That seems like a huge exaggeration.

I've got friends who have passports of convenience from countries that don't necessarily align with their apparent cultural background, and I never think of them in terms of those extra citizenships they have.

So I strongly doubt that Fadi in Beirut or Wei in Hong Kong are ever thought of as "Canadians" in their respective entourages over there. They're just regular locals.

[lio45]

I think "Canadians of convenience" is the usual term. It has the advantage of being nicer than "parasites", plus it's more accurate relative to how these people operate.It’s the exact same thing beyond the semantics: people who contribute nothing, and only show up / exist when convenient for them.

One of the salient characteristics of “a Canadian” is that they have some sort of relationship with Canada. If you live overseas, pay zero taxes, contribute nothing to the economy, never interact with any other Canadian, etc. and your only link to Canada is a passport gathering dust in a drawer, you’re not really “a Canadian” in practice.

SSPer Doug in Australia eventually cancelled his Canadian citizenship, but the day right before he did, he wasn’t very Canadian either, no?

[lio45]

I’m eligible for French citizenship and if I got it and kept living in Quebec/Florida but one day needed an injection of euros from the French treasury to bail me out, and acted like it’s owed to me, you wouldn't consider me a parasite from the French point of view?!?

[Acajack]

I would suspect the vast majority of Canadians of convenience around the world don't and won't cost us anything. We make 100 bucks or so off them every five years when they renew their passports and that's about it.

Lebanon is a notable exception of course though if the number of hotspots around the world starts to increase we may want to revisit our policies.

[MonctonRad]

I was eligible for US citizenship (green card at least) through my mother, and began the process to get a green card about 25 years ago, until I found out about the liabilities of dual US citizenship (most notably double taxation) and backed out.

Maybe dual Canadian nationals living outside the country should have to pay a special fee to sort the wheat from the chafe.

[YOWetal]

I am not really an advocate for the hardline against "Canadians of convenience", though I'd stop short of saying they really are brand ambassadors for us abroad. That seems like a huge exaggeration.

I've got friends who have passports of convenience from countries that don't necessarily align with their apparent cultural background, and I never think of them in terms of those extra citizenships they have.

So I strongly doubt that Fadi in Beirut or Wei in Hong Kong are ever thought of as "Canadians" in their respective entourages over there. They're just regular locals.

I don't know how Faid and Wei became Canadian but I know my experience abroad is these Canadians of convenience are always blathering about Canada. Certainly my relatives who moved to the US etc. and now have kids who are Canadians yet only spent summers here wear Canada on their sleeve. Now they are white so maybe they count more? Despite being born in the US, UK and Australia they still skate, watch hockey, even put maple syrup on their pancakes. Their yearly trips here probably see them pay more taxes than the huge chunk of Canadians (ignoring reasons why whether they be disability or laziness) don't do anything but take from the public purse. Now several have enjoyed cheap University tuition and that bothers me more than evacuating them if their country collapses or is invaded. I mean we took Ukrainians in (and paid for it) and they aren't even Canadians of convenience why wouldn't we pay to take passport holders?

[lio45]

I was eligible for US citizenship (green card at least) through my mother, and began the process to get a green card about 25 years ago, until I found out about the liabilities of dual US citizenship (most notably double taxation) and backed out.

Maybe dual Canadian nationals living outside the country should have to pay a special fee to sort the wheat from the chafe.Exactly my point. With that double taxation would have come the privilege of maybe someday seeing the USS Gerald R Ford CSG come to Shediac Bay to bail YOU out personally with a red carpet evacuation (should Canada turn to shit one day) ;)

[Acajack]

I don't know how Faid and Wei became Canadian but I know my experience abroad is these Canadians of convenience are always blathering about Canada. Certainly my relatives who moved to the US and now have kids who are Canadians yet only spent summers here wear Canada on their sleeve. Now they are white so maybe they count more? Despite being born in the US, UK and Australia they still skate, watch hockey, even put maple syrup on their pancakes. Their yearly trips here probably see them pay more taxes than the huge chunk of Canadians (ignoring reasons why whether they be disability or laziness) don't do anything but take from the public purse. Now several have enjoyed cheap University tuition and that bothers me more than evacuating them if their country collapses or is invaded. I mean we took Ukrainians in (and paid for it) and they aren't even Canadians of convenience why wouldn't we pay to take passport holders?

You're normally smarter than this (descending into race-baiting).

More rationally, I suppose Canadians living in the US are a bit different as they are living in the belly of the nation's historico-cultural existential threat. Saying you're Canadian in the middle of the mass of Americans with whom you otherwise perfectly blend in with is kind of like dyeing your hair purple in high school.

Fadi in Beirut, Wei in Hong Kong or even Werner in Stuttgart or Didier in Toulouse will probably feel less of an urge to do that.

Regarding financial contributions to the Canadian economy, the average Canadian household pays about $40,000 a year in taxes of all kinds. Those Canadians of convenience who come and visit us in the summer are sure having lavish vacations back home if they're topping that amount in a few weeks.

Note that I am still not opposed to the government bringing Canadian citizens resident abroad back home if they're in trouble.