What if Russia disintegrates and Canada becomes the largest country?

[Kitchissippi]

What will it do to our national psyche? Will it give us more swagger? :D

There’s long been talk of the Russian Federation breaking up, and with the recent turmoil, the subject incomes up often. It would be interesting if the territories in Siberia gravitate towards Asia (with China’s and maybe India’s meddling). It would take a couple of these large chunks of the federation going off on their own to make Canada the largest country in the world.

[SignalHillHiker]

It'll just become the subject of Toronto media think pieces like the Globe & Mail's legendary classic, "Celebrating the 150 brands that make us authentically Canadian."

[TorontoDrew]

If Siberia became it's own nation it would be the largest country still by a wide margin. 13.3 million sq km vs Canada's 9.96 million sq/km. If China took over a large chunk of Siberia it could become the largest country on the planet.

[casper]

What will it do to our national psyche? Will it give us more swagger? :D

There’s long been talk of the Russian Federation breaking up, and with the recent turmoil, the subject incomes up often. It would be interesting if the territories in Siberia gravitate towards Asia (with China’s and maybe India’s meddling). It would take a couple of these large chunks of the federation going off on their own to make Canada the largest country in the world.

Some will celebrate. :cheers:

If Canada does become the largest country in the world. The PM would be obligated to make an apology to the world. We don't like distinguishing ourselves in this way.

Obviously we would need to revisit out immigration policy. A country with such status in the world should have way more than 40M. In comparison Russia has a population of 140 M.:yes:

[thurmas]

This would be justinflation by default

[Architype]

What if Russia disintegrates and Canada becomes the largest country?


Russia would have to do a lot of breaking up since Siberia is already much larger than Canada. Just having smaller pieces break off would not make that much difference, Siberia would have to break up too. But if it did, it would give us another title to add to our already largely ignored list. Being second is already pretty awesome.

[giallo]

Honestly, if we did become the biggest country on the planet it would be a surprise to the rest of the world because the rest of the world knows and cares very little about all things Canadian.

It's not meant as a diss, it's just reality. We're barely a blip on the global citizen psyche.

[Architype]

Honestly, if we did become the biggest country on the planet it would be a surprise to the rest of the world because the rest of the world knows and cares very little about all things Canadian.

It's not meant as a diss, it's just reality. We're barely a blip on the global citizen psyche.

Meanwhile as the rest of the world fights over small bits of slightly scorched territory, we've got 9.985 million km² all to ourselves. Kind of sucks doesn't it??
:notacrook:

[Metro-One]

Honestly, if we did become the biggest country on the planet it would be a surprise to the rest of the world because the rest of the world knows and cares very little about all things Canadian.

It's not meant as a diss, it's just reality. We're barely a blip on the global citizen psyche.

I feel this is a little overly pessimistic.

Is Canada on the radar of most akin to the US, China, the UK, India, Japan and other such major geopolitical players? No. But neither are 90% of nations.

But is Canada known / on the radar more than most nations, especially relative to its population? I would say yes.

For example, most people here in Japan have some basic knowledge of Canada: its big, cold, resource rich, wealthy, nature, Vancouver, Toronto, Ottawa...

That is waaaaay more than they know about Peru, or Argentina, or Columbia, or Sweden, or Libya, or Senegal, or Bangladesh, or even closer places such as Thailand from my ten years of experience of interacting with people here.

Even when I was in Senegal a decade ago I was amazed that nearly everyone knew the Canadian flag and could name a city or two.

Maple syrup is also always brought up in my travels around the world when i say I am from Canada. to actually have a food item that instantly known about your nation worldwide is actually something many nations don't have. For example, if I asked the average Japanese what the most famous food item of Brazil is, most here will actually give a shrug.

I always feel its so Canadian to always underestimate our notoriety in the world.

Maybe that's just because America is our neighbour, and being next to the nation that arguably has the highest level of notoriety around the world kind of warps having a balanced judgement on the subject.

[WhipperSnapper]

Canada's notoriety shrinks every passing year. It was huge in the 1980s although there was alot of confusion over our sovereignty. It always surprised me how much of that notoriety was over the CN Tower; the tallest freestanding structure in the world.

It's only a good thing how much of Canadian conversation has being displaced by the rise of others in the past decade. Our reputation for being thoughtful and worldly has been tarnished a fair bit electing Trudeau three times. His woke charms on the world were wearing thin after the first term. They officially died when he starting firing and seizing anyone showing the slightest support of the Truckers.

[Kitchissippi]

Russia would have to do a lot of breaking up since Siberia is already much larger than Canada. Just having smaller pieces break off would not make that much difference, Siberia would have to break up too. But if it did, it would give us another title to add to our already largely ignored list. Being second is already pretty awesome.

Siberia could possibly break up according to ethnic and geographic factors like this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ethnic_and_economic_configuration_of_Russia.png

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ethnic_and_economic_configuration_of_Russia.png

From: Hypothetical dissolution of the Russian Federation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_dissolution_of_the_Russian_Federation)

[MonctonRad]

It doesn't matter much which is the largest country in the world (Canada, Russia, independent Siberia or an expanded China). Whichever one it is will contain a huge amount of tundra and muskeg (taiga), and therefore will be largely uninhabitable.

[giallo]

There are definitely people out there with some extremely basic knowledge, but by and large, in my experience, I was shocked (initially) by how little people knew about us, and these aren't the locals of the country I'm visiting/living in, these are well-traveled expats.

Once I've told said expats/travellers that, no, I'm not American (this would include Americans), I'd ask if they had ever visited Canada. 98% of them would answer no, and proceed to say it's too cold over there.

That was truly our one big label; that Canada is a freezing tundra that would be a challenge to visit. Justin Bieber and Drake would be the other two things they were proud to know about Canada. I have a lot of good friends from my Shanghai and Taiwan days that still know absolutely nothing about our country, and anytime I post something on social media that breaks their perceived stereotypes, their minds are blown.

I'll always remember posting a skyline picture of Edmonton while I was visiting my sister, and my friend from SF (who's traveled the world as a promoter) couldn't believe it. I asked what he thought Edmonton looked like, and he said he didn't. Like, the thought of what a Canadian city actually looks like had never crossed his mind.

And that kind of sums my experience of living abroad as a Canadian. Most people had very little interest in where I'm from. We're so deeply in the shadow of the US, we may as well be invisible at times.


I feel this is a little overly pessimistic.

Is Canada on the radar of most akin to the US, China, the UK, India, Japan and other such major geopolitical players? No. But neither are 90% of nations.

But is Canada known / on the radar more than most nations, especially relative to its population? I would say yes.

For example, most people here in Japan have some basic knowledge of Canada: its big, cold, resource rich, wealthy, nature, Vancouver, Toronto, Ottawa...

That is waaaaay more than they know about Peru, or Argentina, or Columbia, or Sweden, or Libya, or Senegal, or Bangladesh, or even closer places such as Thailand from my ten years of experience of interacting with people here.

Even when I was in Senegal a decade ago I was amazed that nearly everyone knew the Canadian flag and could name a city or two.

Maple syrup is also always brought up in my travels around the world when i say I am from Canada. to actually have a food item that instantly known about your nation worldwide is actually something many nations don't have. For example, if I asked the average Japanese what the most famous food item of Brazil is, most here will actually give a shrug.

I always feel its so Canadian to always underestimate our notoriety in the world.

Maybe that's just because America is our neighbour, and being next to the nation that arguably has the highest level of notoriety around the world kind of warps having a balanced judgement on the subject.

[harls]

I have a lot of good friends from my Shanghai and Taiwan days that still know absolutely nothing about our country, and anytime I post something on social media that breaks their perceived stereotypes, their minds are blown.


Reading posts on social media from Americans that can't believe the forest fire smoke in their city is from Canada is damn sad. Like, we are so far away man. I am sure it is a conspiracy. Biden is just burning landfills, or what have you.

[Architype]

There are definitely people out there with some extremely basic knowledge, but by and large, in my experience, I was shocked (initially) by how little people knew about us, and these aren't the locals of the country I'm visiting/living in, these are well-traveled expats.
...

All of this seems so inexcusable until you realize many Canadians don't always know much about opposite ends of this country either. I'm from both ends of the country, sort of, so I realize this more than most. This forum is an exception of course.

Reading posts on social media from Americans that can't believe the forest fire smoke in their city is from Canada is damn sad. Like, we are so far away man. I am sure it is a conspiracy. Biden is just burning landfills, or what have you.

That smoke will reach places like Boston or Philadelphia much faster than it will reach BC or Newfoundland.

[WhipperSnapper]

In my experience, Canadians are more disinterested in things than Americans. The JTF2 could be fighting in Ukraine right now. There could alien research happening in a nondescript warehouse in Milton. Canadian space lasers may have started the fires to promoted healthy forests and things got out of hand. LOL

Anyways, I think it's a little ironic we mock Americans over things we find important enough to know.

[MonctonRad]

In my experience, Canadians are more disinterested in things than Americans.

On the contrary, even well educated Americans tend to be far, far more parochial than your average Canadian.

This extends even to knowledge of more distant parts of their own country, let alone Canada and the world in general.

I mean, Jesus Christ, a good portion of USians are frankly surprised that Canada actually borders their country. Even those Americans that know that Canada lies to their north seem to labour under the misapprehension that when you approach the border from the south, you should see glaciers on the distant horizon. Trumpian Americans think that Canada is a communist state.........

[giallo]

It's not just Americans though. Most of the people I met living abroad didn't know anything about Canada; French, Nigerian, Australian, English, South African, Kiwi, Korean, Chilean, Brazilian....

I never took it as a slight or anything, it was just a bit of a wake up call. In Canada, we have our own special kind of propaganda that really makes us feel more important on the world stage than we actually are.

The one group of countrymen that would show genuine interest in Canada when I said I was from there were Germans. This has been a constant no matter where I am, and I don't know why.

[thewave46]

What if Canadians worried about Canada instead of compulsively gawking at the country to the south with our ingrained inferiority complex?

What if Denmark and Canada had a war over Hans Island?

What if Tim Horton came back from the dead? Would he eat at Tim Hortons?

What if Ben Mulroney becomes PM?

What if Winnipeg becomes Canada’s most populated city and the Jets dominate the Stanley Cup?

What if PEI has a referendum to leave Canada? Do we blow up the Confederation Bridge?

What if Canadian Tire and Loblaws merged? Would we have the Real Canadian Tire Superstore?

What if King Charles III becomes an absolute monarch and decides to rename Canadian cities because he is tired of people getting London, Ontario confused with the proper London?

What if poutine was banned?

Make up your own.

[MonctonRad]

What if Ben Mulroney becomes PM?


It's too bad Molson got pissed off and is taking a break from SSP. I would have loved to have heard his response to this question regarding the uber-unctuous scion of the Mulroney clan.

[DougB]

If Russia disintegrates and descends into chaos....Canada will once again miss an opportunity to seize the market share that the former Russia is likely to lose in oil, natural gas, grain, uranium and fertilizer

[hipster duck]

If Russia disintegrates and descends into chaos....Canada will once again miss an opportunity to seize the market share that the former Russia is likely to lose in oil, natural gas, grain, uranium and fertilizer

Other than to the United States, is there a single export where Canada is among the top 3 suppliers?

I just checked the export tree map, and the largest export by value to China (https://tradingeconomics.com/canada/exports/china), our second biggest trading partner, is "ores, slag and ash" at $2.96B.

$2.96B would be our 28th largest export to the US, behind "Rubber" at $3.1B.

China accounts for 3.8% of our exports, compared to the US at 77%.

I don't think Canada can seize any market share from a commodity formerly supplied by Russia simply because we don't bother to find other trading partners other than the US nor to invest in the export infrastructure needed to do this. We are a sovereign country, but we are, in pretty much every other way, an economic vassal state of the United States.

[Acajack]

Canada's notoriety shrinks every passing year. It was huge in the 1980s although there was alot of confusion over our sovereignty. It always surprised me how much of that notoriety was over the CN Tower; the tallest freestanding structure in the world.

It's only a good thing how much of Canadian conversation has being displaced by the rise of others in the past decade. Our reputation for being thoughtful and worldly has been tarnished a fair bit electing Trudeau three times. His woke charms on the world were wearing thin after the first term. They officially died when he starting firing and seizing anyone showing the slightest support of the Truckers.

To be honest our international reputation decline started in the Jean Chrétien years, continued during the Stephen Harper years and then the Justin Trudeau years.

They weren't perfect leaders but Canada had a far greater impact internationally under Lester B Pearson, Pierre Elliot Trudeau and Brian Mulroney.

[Acajack]

Siberia could possibly break up according to ethnic and geographic factors like this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ethnic_and_economic_configuration_of_Russia.png

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ethnic_and_economic_configuration_of_Russia.png

From: Hypothetical dissolution of the Russian Federation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_dissolution_of_the_Russian_Federation)

If so then even Sakha would be no match for us!

[Acajack]

I feel this is a little overly pessimistic.

Is Canada on the radar of most akin to the US, China, the UK, India, Japan and other such major geopolitical players? No. But neither are 90% of nations.

But is Canada known / on the radar more than most nations, especially relative to its population? I would say yes.

For example, most people here in Japan have some basic knowledge of Canada: its big, cold, resource rich, wealthy, nature, Vancouver, Toronto, Ottawa...

That is waaaaay more than they know about Peru, or Argentina, or Columbia, or Sweden, or Libya, or Senegal, or Bangladesh, or even closer places such as Thailand from my ten years of experience of interacting with people here.

Even when I was in Senegal a decade ago I was amazed that nearly everyone knew the Canadian flag and could name a city or two.

Maple syrup is also always brought up in my travels around the world when i say I am from Canada. to actually have a food item that instantly known about your nation worldwide is actually something many nations don't have. For example, if I asked the average Japanese what the most famous food item of Brazil is, most here will actually give a shrug.

I always feel its so Canadian to always underestimate our notoriety in the world.

Maybe that's just because America is our neighbour, and being next to the nation that arguably has the highest level of notoriety around the world kind of warps having a balanced judgement on the subject.

I am generally in the "relative to its size, Canada globally is largely insignificant and even more ignored" camp, but this post of yours has made me think twice about that position.

[casper]

To be honest our international reputation decline started in the Jean Chrétien years, continued during the Stephen Harper years and then the Justin Trudeau years.

They weren't perfect leaders but Canada had a far greater impact internationally under Lester B Pearson, Pierre Elliot Trudeau and Brian Mulroney.

I would not include Brian Mulroney in that list. That said, I think there was a clear vision for who Canada stands for internationally under those leaders than we have today.

There was a point where we transitioned to being all about free trade and little more. I think JT government showed some leaning to going back to that when we have stood up to Russia, Saudi Arabia or China but it is been limited. We have also been willing to compromise on our principles if trade was at stake. For example our willingness to sell LAVs to Saudi Arabia.

[MonctonRad]

I would not include Brian Mulroney in that list. That said, I think there was a clear vision for who Canada stands for internationally under those leaders than we have today.

Mulroney and Thatcher were quite influential in ending apartheid in South Africa.

[Acajack]

I would not include Brian Mulroney in that list. That said, I think there was a clear vision for who Canada stands for internationally under those leaders than we have today.

There was a point where we transitioned to being all about free trade and little more. I think JT government showed some leaning to going back to that when we have stood up to Russia, Saudi Arabia or China but it is been limited. We have also been willing to compromise on our principles if trade was at stake. For example our willingness to sell LAVs to Saudi Arabia.

Oh I would. He really played a leading role internationally in bringing down the apartheid régime and worked with the US to reduce acid rain causing emissions which were a huge environmental problem at the time.

[thebasketballgeek]

I’m starting to think a lot of you would rather be Americans then live in Canada with how much it matters that we aren’t at the top of the global hegemon.

In reality, there are like 6 entities that truly matter on the global stage which are US, China, India, EU, Russia and the Arab World. Everything and everyone else is irrelevant or are on some ways vassal states to these powers. With Russia’s current disintegration maybe there will finally be a relevant player in Sub-Saharan Africa like Nigeria entering the mix, but really why should we care?

And it’s funny the same people who care so much about Canada’s global image are also the first ones to call out our high immigration levels that probably are going nowhere but up for the foreseeable future.

Spoiler alert: The only way for Canada to be relevant is from a huge increase in population.

[acottawa]

I’m starting to think a lot of you would rather be Americans then live in Canada with how much it matters that we aren’t at the top of the global hegemon.

In reality, there are like 6 entities that truly matter on the global stage which are US, China, India, EU, Russia and the Arab World. Everything and everyone else is irrelevant or are on some ways vassal states to these powers. With Russia’s current disintegration maybe there will finally be a relevant player in Sub-Saharan Africa like Nigeria entering the mix, but really why should we care?

And it’s funny the same people who care so much about Canada’s global image are also the first ones to call out our high immigration levels that probably are going nowhere but up for the foreseeable future.

Spoiler alert: The only way for Canada to be relevant is from a huge increase in population.

India has almost no global influence, neither does the Arab world or Russia for that matter. The EU’s importance is limited to a few specific economic issues.

I don’t know where this population fetish came from, nobody was talking about it 5 years ago. Frankly Canada was a much more important country at 10 million or 25 million than it is at 40 million.

[thebasketballgeek]

India has almost no global influence, neither does the Arab world or Russia for that matter. The EU’s importance is limited to a few specific economic issues.

I don’t know where this population fetish came from, nobody was talking about it 5 years ago. Frankly Canada was a much more important country at 10 million or 25 million than it is at 40 million.

So then basically the only 2 countries with global influence are China and the US then?

Maybe Russia and the Arab World might not have that level of influence, but too say the worlds most populous country, largest English market, and largest diaspora in the world has “almost no global influence” is completely asinine.

I think a lot of people don’t quite understand that half of the entire world’s population lives either in India, China, or Southeast Asia. Most of Southeast Asia’s cultural and religious influence comes from these two nations, not one or the other.

I know it’s hard (especially on this forum), but it is possible to view influence from a non-western lens for once. Or in the case of the Arab world a religious lens.

Also, the second point is interesting. What made Canada so important at 10 or 25 million compared too now? As someone in the forum who isn’t, most people I meet from outside of the country have a better then expected understanding of the big 3 cities before it tapers off to limited understanding. How many countries have 3 cities (maybe even 4 with Calgary/Rockies) that are internationally well known?

[casper]

India has almost no global influence, neither does the Arab world or Russia for that matter. The EU’s importance is limited to a few specific economic issues.

I don’t know where this population fetish came from, nobody was talking about it 5 years ago. Frankly Canada was a much more important country at 10 million or 25 million than it is at 40 million.

The EU has the problem that it is generally weak, with each of member states having a strong say in foreign policy on its own. Germany and France has influence, Portugal not so much. Collectively you need all these countries to come together. Not easy.

I don't know the dynamics of India that well. However I get the impression it is very similar.

CANSUK was our chance of being part of a collaboration of countries that share similar values and usually similar foreign policies. However that did not happen and now is extremely unlikely to ever happen.

[acottawa]

So then basically the only 2 countries with global influence are China and the US then?

Maybe Russia and the Arab World might not have that level of influence, but too say the worlds most populous country, largest English market, and largest diaspora in the world has “almost no global influence” is completely asinine.

I think a lot of people don’t quite understand that half of the entire world’s population lives either in India, China, or Southeast Asia. Most of Southeast Asia’s cultural and religious influence comes from these two nations, not one or the other.

I know it’s hard (especially on this forum), but it is possible to view influence from a non-western lens for once. Or in the case of the Arab world a religious lens.

Also, the second point is interesting. What made Canada so important at 10 or 25 million compared too now? As someone in the forum who isn’t, most people I meet from outside of the country have a better then expected understanding of the big 3 cities before it tapers off to limited understanding. How many countries have 3 cities (maybe even 4 with Calgary/Rockies) that are internationally well known?

When did India ever get anyone to do anything? Influence is getting an entity to do something they did not want to do. It is a country run by ultranationalist Hindus on a planet where there are no other Hindu countries, which makes it almost impossible to have real soft power. Does India have a sphere of influence? Their military has never proved itself with anyone but Pakistan, and given it is full of Russian crap they probably won’t. Maybe someday. Not now.

A Canada of 10 million was a major military power. A Canada of 25 million was developing major technology, was a major manufacturing power and had significant diplomatic and military influence. A Canada of 40 million can’t even win a security council seat.

[acottawa]

The EU has the problem that it is generally weak, with each of member states having a strong say in foreign policy on its own. Germany and France has influence, Portugal not so much. Collectively you need all these countries to come together. Not easy.

I don't know the dynamics of India that well. However I get the impression it is very similar.

CANSUK was our chance of being part of a collaboration of countries that share similar values and usually similar foreign policies. However that did not happen and now is extremely unlikely to ever happen.

In the EU the Commission has sole jurisdiction over many economic issues in the world’s largest economy, which gives it a lot of influence specific to the economic sphere. For example, we are all switching to USB C because the Commission decided that.

[hipster duck]

I’m starting to think a lot of you would rather be Americans then live in Canada with how much it matters that we aren’t at the top of the global hegemon.

In reality, there are like 6 entities that truly matter on the global stage which are US, China, India, EU, Russia and the Arab World. Everything and everyone else is irrelevant or are on some ways vassal states to these powers. With Russia’s current disintegration maybe there will finally be a relevant player in Sub-Saharan Africa like Nigeria entering the mix, but really why should we care?

And it’s funny the same people who care so much about Canada’s global image are also the first ones to call out our high immigration levels that probably are going nowhere but up for the foreseeable future.

Spoiler alert: The only way for Canada to be relevant is from a huge increase in population.

What? Countries aren't 'relevant' due to their population size. Indonesia isn't very relevant, and it's the fourth most populous country in the world. Bangladesh isn't very relevant. Ethiopia isn't very relevant.

There are countries of Canada's size or smaller that are more relevant to the world than Canada. The Netherlands is more relevant than Canada. They have bigger, more international banks. They have the only company capable of designing the complex machines that produce the world's most powerful semiconductors. Similarly, Taiwan is more relevant than Canada. They're the only country that has a company that can use those machines to manufacture those chips. If it wasn't that relevant, I doubt that China would have it in its crosshairs, nor would the US devote so many resources and so much effort coming to its rescue. Israel is more relevant than Canada. South Korea is more relevant than Canada. Australia is arguably more relevant than Canada.

Now maybe we don't want to be relevant because we're in a geopolitically contested part of the world and the next flashpoint for global conflict. But we probably should want to be more relevant because we are better than everyone else in developing a strategically important technology. Or we have the HQ of a few very important multinationals. It's hard to do these things, and there's no tried and true method to achieve this, but I know that bringing in millions of unskilled workers is not the way to start.

[WhipperSnapper]

To be honest our international reputation decline started in the Jean Chrétien years, continued during the Stephen Harper years and then the Justin Trudeau years.

They weren't perfect leaders but Canada had a far greater impact internationally under Lester B Pearson, Pierre Elliot Trudeau and Brian Mulroney.

I totally agree that Canada's international reputation starting declining with Brian Mulroney's trade agreement at the end of his reign that led to stagflation. However, under Trudeau and because of Trudeau its shifted to Canadians than Canada.

It's probable its the crowd I'm in. Someone else may have an entirely different perspective.

[LightingGuy]

I’m starting to think a lot of you would rather be Americans then live in Canada with how much it matters that we aren’t at the top of the global hegemon.

If I was 22, single and recently graduated from a STEM program I would move to the US in a heartbeat. (At this point I've made my bed and am instead focused on Ontario, and using my position in life to help improve things here in whichever way I can moving forward)

I just returned from a trip to Wisconsin and Michigan and it was pretty eye-opening just how much Canada has stagnated in just the past year.

Almost anyone in the US can buy a house - they have housing options for everyone of all income levels. I previously gave an example of Jackson Michigan, where a Wendy's worker can make $15/hour ($30K per year) and buy a house for $100K. While being in close proximity to 2 major US cities.

Even in Farmington Hills, MI - one of the wealthiest suburban cities in all of the US - you can buy a really nice house for $300K.

Anyone who seriously believes that Canada is "better" than the US needs to travel more and go experience things for themselves rather than just listening to CBC.

[WhipperSnapper]

Number of people matter. A condom is a sin in most religions. China, India or, Saudi Arabia are all banking on population growth to varying degrees. That strategy is centred around spreading to countries like Canada than the homefront. For better or worse, the things that we identify as Canadian today will be different at 60 million people.

[Acajack]

I totally agree that Canada's international reputation starting declining with Brian Mulroney's trade agreement at the end of his reign that led to stagflation. However, under Trudeau and because of Trudeau its shifted to Canadians than Canada.

It's probable its the crowd I'm in. Someone else may have an entirely different perspective.

I am not sure that free trade really was the big culprit of our decline in global prestige. (Though perhaps it did consolidate and enhance our position as an economic vassal state of the US.)

The Jean Chrétien years that followed the Mulroney era were largely visionless and focused on keeping the lights on and the ship afloat. We turned inward way more and moved away from stuff like UN peacekeeping and Chrétien even skipped out on the funeral for Jordan's King Hussein (attended by most world leaders) because he didn't want to forgo a ski trip.

[WhipperSnapper]

Not the trade agreement itself. The bending over to get the US to commit to it like holding the dollar at 85 cents that caused stagflation destroying his legacy; destroying the party; damaged our international reputation. All things considered, righting the ship left by Mulroney at the expense of UN commitments was a worthwhile venture

[Acajack]

Brian Mulroney also had the courage to implement the GST in the face of a huge amount of political and public flak. It allowed us to eliminate the federal deficit which had hobbled the country's finances for decades.

Now I am not a Mulroneyite, but I do think he was a better PM than most people admit.

[WhipperSnapper]

He was beloved for most of his term. There were cheers when he won reelection and for the free trade agreement. His choice to get Americans to commit to the free trade agreement at all costs has a terrible lasting legacy. It hollowed out manufacturing in the GTA, Ontario and, Quebec. It left no chance to reinvigorate the declining sector and set us on this real estate development path.

Chrétien let the dollar fall, fall , fall. That didn't look good internationally but it reverse the FTA to work to our advantage. Americans were now crying over its injustices. Manufactured goods were gone. It was raw resources.

[YOWetal]

Brian Mulroney also had the courage to implement the GST in the face of a huge amount of political and public flak. It allowed us to eliminate the federal deficit which had hobbled the country's finances for decades.

Now I am not a Mulroneyite, but I do think he was a better PM than most people admit.

The GST was good policy but did not eliminate the deficit. It was more or less revenue neutral with the Manufacturing tax it replaced. Naturally our full blown embrace of consumerism and loss of manufacturing meant government coffers benefited from the change.

[blueandgoldguy]

If I was 22, single and recently graduated from a STEM program I would move to the US in a heartbeat. (At this point I've made my bed and am instead focused on Ontario, and using my position in life to help improve things here in whichever way I can moving forward)

I just returned from a trip to Wisconsin and Michigan and it was pretty eye-opening just how much Canada has stagnated in just the past year.

Almost anyone in the US can buy a house - they have housing options for everyone of all income levels. I previously gave an example of Jackson Michigan, where a Wendy's worker can make $15/hour ($30K per year) and buy a house for $100K. While being in close proximity to 2 major US cities.

Even in Farmington Hills, MI - one of the wealthiest suburban cities in all of the US - you can buy a really nice house for $300K.

Anyone who seriously believes that Canada is "better" than the US needs to travel more and go experience things for themselves rather than just listening to CBC.

oof, bad take. Property taxes are generally higher in many US states. Health care premiums are much higher as well. It's not at all uncommon for middle class Americans to be pushed to bankruptcy due to certain medical procedures and prescriptions not being covered by their health care plans.
Insurance can be prohibitive in places like Florida resulting in gambles leaving people in financial ruin should a natural disaster strike.

Sorry, but owning a single-family home in "any income bracket" is a pretty myopic way to viewing the United States as "better" than Canada. There are other factors you failed to consider. It certainly doesn't seem to have helped a typical middle class American male to live as long as a Canadian...in fact they live 5 fewer years!

[theman23]

What? Countries aren't 'relevant' due to their population size. Indonesia isn't very relevant, and it's the fourth most populous country in the world. Bangladesh isn't very relevant. Ethiopia isn't very relevant.

There are countries of Canada's size or smaller that are more relevant to the world than Canada. The Netherlands is more relevant than Canada. They have bigger, more international banks. They have the only company capable of designing the complex machines that produce the world's most powerful semiconductors. Similarly, Taiwan is more relevant than Canada. They're the only country that has a company that can use those machines to manufacture those chips. If it wasn't that relevant, I doubt that China would have it in its crosshairs, nor would the US devote so many resources and so much effort coming to its rescue. Israel is more relevant than Canada. South Korea is more relevant than Canada. Australia is arguably more relevant than Canada.

Now maybe we don't want to be relevant because we're in a geopolitically contested part of the world and the next flashpoint for global conflict. But we probably should want to be more relevant because we are better than everyone else in developing a strategically important technology. Or we have the HQ of a few very important multinationals. It's hard to do these things, and there's no tried and true method to achieve this, but I know that bringing in millions of unskilled workers is not the way to start.

World's biggest workforce of burger flippers would be something to contend with. Watch out - the spatulas are still hot!

[someone123]

But we probably should want to be more relevant because we are better than everyone else in developing a strategically important technology. Or we have the HQ of a few very important multinationals. It's hard to do these things, and there's no tried and true method to achieve this, but I know that bringing in millions of unskilled workers is not the way to start.

I think Canada is doing the opposite of what's needed. We have relatively high taxes and tend to be laissez-faire about the new industries while maintaining protectionism on the old industries to keep oligopolies and the like around. We don't really embrace natural resource development, perhaps our biggest advantage. Then we have our real estate problem which makes Canada even less competitive.

The federal government is doing things like accepting lots of tech workers and digital nomads as an example (while Canadians probably won't get symmetric options abroad) but I'm not sure the funding situation has improved here and there is no housing. Most likely this will be more downward pressure on wages and top talent will leave when convenient.

[LightingGuy]

oof, bad take. Property taxes are generally higher in many US states. Health care premiums are much higher as well. It's not at all uncommon for middle class Americans to be pushed to bankruptcy due to certain medical procedures and prescriptions not being covered by their health care plans.
Insurance can be prohibitive in places like Florida resulting in gambles leaving people in financial ruin should a natural disaster strike.

Sorry, but owning a single-family home in "any income bracket" is a pretty myopic way to viewing the United States as "better" than Canada. There are other factors you failed to consider. It certainly doesn't seem to have helped a typical middle class American male to live as long as a Canadian...in fact they live 5 fewer years!

US is larger, so there is going to be a more diverse variety of economic situations. The issues people face in California is similar to Canada.

Yes some areas pay more property taxes, but that is not true everywhere. In Wisconsin for example, I was told property taxes are about $4000, and you can get a nice house for about $275K. This came from the VP of a midsize company I do business with.

Yes it's true they don't do everything perfectly, ie. they would benefit from at least a basic level of publicly-funded healthcare available to everyone.

But by and large, for the same set of skills you will make more money in the US, and your cost of living will be less.

A burger flipper in the US can buy a home and build wealth, near large major metropolitan areas. The same cannot be said anywhere in Canada except for extremely remote areas. In Canada that same burger flipper is renting a room they're entire life and never building any meaningful wealth.

Meanwhile a 35 year-old mechanical engineer can make 50% more money, buy a house for 60% less than they would here, and have a ton of disposable income. Canada simply can't compete with this, unless you want to live in Fort Mac or NW Territories.

There are far more Canadians living in America than the other way around, despite there being 10x as many Americans as Canadians. Most Americans have zero desire to live in Canada, but there are plenty of Canadians who move to the US permanently. And it's usually our highest skilled people who move there.

[casper]

A burger flipper in the US can buy a home and build wealth, near large major metropolitan areas. The same cannot be said anywhere in Canada except for extremely remote areas. In Canada that same burger flipper is renting a room they're entire life and never building any meaningful wealth.

Meanwhile the 35 year-old mechanical engineer can make 30% more money, buy a house for 60% less than they would here, and have a ton of disposable income.

There are far more Canadians living in America than the other way around, despite there being 10x as many Americans as Canadians. Most Americans have zero desire to live in Canada, but there are plenty of Canadians who move to the US permanently. And it's usually our highest skilled people who move there.

Google says average burger flipper in the US is making $12US/hour. That is not a lot of money to go buy a house anywhere.

Minimum wage in BC is $16.75.

I think your pooched in both countries if your a long-term burger flipper.

[LightingGuy]

Google says average burger flipper in the US is making $12US/hour. That is not a lot of money to go buy a house anywhere.

Minimum wage in BC is $16.75.

I think your pooched in both countries if your a long-term burger flipper.

I should've taken a picture of the sign in Jackson Michigan. Wendy's was advertising they're paying $15/hr starting wage ($20/hr CDN). And in the same town houses cost $100K.

[LightingGuy]

I should add that for business owners it is better to be a Canadian. You have access to cheaper highly-educated labour, and you're next to the largest, wealthiest customer in the world. By default the Canadian business selling in the US is going to have an advantage over American companies since their biggest cost (employees) is lower. From the American customer's perspective they don't even feel like they're dealing with a foreign company since culturally we're so similar. Taxes at the border are almost nothing, and not nearly enough to offset the lower cost of production in Canada. And if you sell a service in the US you don't have to charge any tax at all (since services don't need to cross the border).

Not only that, but corporate taxes in Canada are lower than in the US, so you can reinvest more of your money into your business.

Canada is also far less litigious than the US so insurance here costs less. Incorporating a business is a much simpler process as well.

And once you're rich, you can leave Canada, and move your money overseas where it's taxed at a lower personal rate. Americans still have to pay US tax even if they don't live in the country (one of the reasons Canadian pro sports teams struggle getting talent - double tax).

[theman23]

I should've taken a picture of the sign in Jackson Michigan. Wendy's was advertising they're paying $15/hr starting wage ($20/hr CDN). And in the same town houses cost $100K.

It's common to see postings on the west coast of the USA advertising starting wages of $20USD an hour to work at Mcdonalds, which is quite a bit higher than the BC minimum wage.

I'm not really sure why we're relying on anecdotes or the dubious google fu skills of Casper anyways. It's been fairly well established with national level data that Americans have higher disposable income, more purchasing power, and lower housing costs than Canadians. The "b-b-bu healthcare" line is predictably trotted out, but I'm pretty sure MAID is preferable to the life extension provided by our healthcare system (if it can even be attributed to that).

[Architype]

It's common to see postings on the west coast of the USA advertising starting wages of $20USD an hour to work at Mcdonalds, which is quite a bit higher than the BC minimum wage.

I'm not really sure why we're relying on anecdotes or the dubious google fu skills of Casper anyways. It's been fairly well established with national level data that Americans have higher disposable income, more purchasing power, and lower housing costs than Canadians. The "b-b-bu healthcare" line is predictably trotted out, but I'm pretty sure MAID is preferable to the life extension provided by our healthcare system (if it can even be attributed to that).

It's not only healthcare, I just wouldn't trade my CAD in return for higher USD just to risk being randomly shot in a Trump friendly atmosphere. Being Canadian is priceless.