Calgary Transit Fantasy Thread

[JordanBerndt]

Every other city has it's own fantasy thread, why shouldn't we?

I'm going to start things off with me own fantasy CTrain Map that I created last October, with news that the Green Line will begin construction in 2017, I felt it was an appropriate time to dig this up again, what do you guys think?

http://i.imgur.com/OgY6JE7.jpg


Trivia:

- 207.3 Kilometers (128.8 Miles) of track, or about as many miles as the entire Paris Métro
- 121 Stations, almost as many as the city of Osaka.
- The largest Light Rail Transit system in the world

[RyLucky]

Looks good! I'm a geek about this stuff too. Here's a map I made a couple years ago that I've shared on here before.
http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u467/RyLucky/Untitled4-2.png
One change I would make is match my NE leg with my SW leg, and the W leg with the E leg, amongst other changes.

[CalgaryAlex]

Every other city has it's own fantasy thread, why shouldn't we?

I'm going to start things off with me own fantasy CTrain Map that I created last October, with news that the Green Line will begin construction in 2017, I felt it was an appropriate time to dig this up again, what do you guys think?

That aligns pretty close to what I've drawn up in Google Maps (which I'm too lazy to dig up). In particular, I drew a nearly identical line going from Bowness to International Ave... those two areas are so desperately in need of a boost and rapid transit could give it to them.

Great job, love it!

[holhm22]

Really great map and excellent design Jordan, but I think there isn't really a need for a Silver Springs station. Nice to see Northland on there though

[McMurph]

That aligns pretty close to what I've drawn up in Google Maps (which I'm too lazy to dig up). In particular, I drew a nearly identical line going from Bowness to International Ave... those two areas are so desperately in need of a boost and rapid transit could give it to them.

Great job, love it!

Bowness to 17 Ave SE would be great route for a street car line. I know BRT is just as effective, but trains are so much more fun.

[JordanBerndt]

Really great map and excellent design Jordan, but I think there isn't really a need for a Silver Springs station. Nice to see Northland on there though

Maybe not, but if you live in Silver Springs or Ranchlands there's no way you can walk to an LRT station, and considering that the train already runs right between the two communities, I think that's a missed opportunity for thousands of people. There really isn't enough space for a park n ride lot or bus loop so it'd have to be a pedestrian only station, but anyways I think it should be a thing.

If you've been to Northland Mall recently, they have all these posters up about their proposed plan to redevelop the land, which basically includes building a 2-story mall with 3-5 stories of office and residential above it, as well as adding a public square/plaza area directly across Brebeuf, while moving the main parking lot to where the gym and Best Buy are now. Interestingly though, the plans also included a CTrain Station, I don't know if that means that owners and/or developers will be lobbying the city or not to build a station or if (hopefully) if they'll be giving them land/money to help make it a reality, but I really hope it does become a thing, I was always so disappointed that there never was a station there.


That aligns pretty close to what I've drawn up in Google Maps (which I'm too lazy to dig up). In particular, I drew a nearly identical line going from Bowness to International Ave... those two areas are so desperately in need of a boost and rapid transit could give it to them.

Great job, love it!

Thanks! :) You should dig up the map you've made and post it too, I want to see it!

[holhm22]

Maybe not, but if you live in Silver Springs or Ranchlands there's no way you can walk to an LRT station, and considering that the train already runs right between the two communities, I think that's a missed opportunity for thousands of people. There really isn't enough space for a park n ride lot or bus loop so it'd have to be a pedestrian only station, but anyways I think it should be a thing.

If you've been to Northland Mall recently, they have all these posters up about their proposed plan to redevelop the land, which basically includes building a 2-story mall with 3-5 stories of office and residential above it, as well as adding a public square/plaza area directly across Brebeuf, while moving the main parking lot to where the gym and Best Buy are now. Interestingly though, the plans also included a CTrain Station, I don't know if that means that owners and/or developers will be lobbying the city or not to build a station or if (hopefully) if they'll be giving them land/money to help make it a reality, but I really hope it does become a thing, I was always so disappointed that there never was a station there.




Thanks! :) You should dig up the map you've made and post it too, I want to see it!

OK, Silver Springs station isn't a bad idea, but if it's pedestrian only, I still don't think there will be enough people that will choose to just walk to the station in either community. In the end, I think that the cost of building a station there will not be worth it.

[DizzyEdge]

Silversprings/Ranchlands would need an upzoned TOD around the station to make it worthwhile.

[Innersoul1]

I have been meaning to post this for a while. A while ago there was some discussion on a Gondola System from the U of C to Foothills and then up to the top of Edworthy park. I saw this on CBC and it was well done. If they can pull it off in Colombia, why not here?

http://www.cbc.ca/player/News/TV%20Shows/The%20National/ID/2650654235/

Skip to the 6:30 mark for the gondola bit.

[Fuzz]

My biggest issue with gondolas would be the epic wind storms we get. Can they handle it? I know ski lifts around here often get shut down in big winds.

[googspecial]

My biggest issue with gondolas would be the epic wind storms we get. Can they handle it? I know ski lifts around here often get shut down in big winds.

Often during these storms the C-Trains shut down as well

[Fuzz]

Really? Trains were still running yesterday, albeit a disaster due to passenger issues...I can't imagine a gondola would have operated then. How often to the traisn stop because of strong winds?

[googspecial]

Quick google search - Gondolas at ski resorts generally shut down when gusts reach 100km/h. Yesterday's gusts reached 78km/h.

Really? Trains were still running yesterday, albeit a disaster due to passenger issues...I can't imagine a gondola would have operated then. How often to the traisn stop because of strong winds?

There was a wind storm a few summers ago when they shut down the lines.

Trains were running yesterday, but not only delayed by passengers, but crews needing to clean debris from the tracks. I imagine that that would be more significant reason to shut down over the wind itself.

[Wooster]

Gondolas were being studied by Calgary Transit for that connection across the Bow Valley.

[googspecial]

http://i.imgur.com/9n0Z5jj.png

Green Line from Keystone to Woodbine/Cedarbrae/Tsuu T'ina
SE & East Calgary gets it's own "Purple Line"
Yellow Line is Gondola
Black as Streetcar Network
White dots at Major Transfer Points

[simster3]

http://i.imgur.com/9n0Z5jj.png

Green Line from Keystone to Woodbine/Cedarbrae/Tsuu T'ina
SE & East Calgary gets it's own "Purple Line"
Yellow Line is Gondola
Black as Streetcar Network
White dots at Major Transfer Points

Not sure I could live with a street car in front of my house on 33rd St. :)

[UofC.engineer]

Gondolas were being studied by Calgary Transit for that connection across the Bow Valley.

Do you know whatever became of the NW HUB mobility study? Seems to have disappeared off the radar. Same with the functional subway study that was supposedly commenced in 2007.

[RyLucky]

Nice map!

Although I like the streetcar routes you've mapped out (especially the one in the deep south - I never would have thought of that), I have mixed emotions towards the technology. I like the romance/nostalgia/permanence of streetcars, but there are a ton of reasons why they are pretty impractical: they are a headache for bicycles, wheelchairs, and strollers (both loading and to cross the tracks), there are many near-misses from centre-lane stations, and a bus can beat them in 9 out of 10 metrics. If there is a separated ROW, that may be another story, but I think you'd lose part of that nostalgic charm. If we still had the ones we built in the 30's, I'd probably argue that we should keep them as a part of our heritage, but now I'm not sure the charm is worth it when for the same price we might as well double bus service hours on those routes.

Gondolas were being studied by Calgary Transit for that connection across the Bow Valley.

Gondolas seem best for scenarios with dramatic elevation gain and physical barriers, especially when road (bike, bus, car) are completely unfeasible. They also tend to work better for the first mile, rather than the last mile, meaning people prefer to use them to connect home rather than work, with the exception of tourist purposes. For me, Gondolas are kind of a last resort, and I'm not convinced they are a good fit for present-day Calgary.

That is not to say that they could never work here. If more people lived at the University and at Westbrook, an aerial tram with a stop at Foothills might well serve all three. An even better solution would be continuous rapid transit that also connects nodes far more significant than Westbrook (MRU, Rockyview, and the SLRT) 30 years down the road. It reminds me of building a ferry where one day we will ask for a bridge.

Now, if Calgary built a community almost inaccessible by car (like the barios of Medellin or the housing projects of Roosevelt Island), I'm all for gondola. In theory, I could also get behind one that served tourists connecting Heritage Park to Chinook or something.

[milomilo]

Not sure I could live with a street car in front of my house on 33rd St. :)

How come? I'd love one.

That's a cool map, I like the idea of a network of streetcar lines a lot (although not actually in mixed traffic), but I fear there would be no business case for them as you'd need a pretty dense network of them over a largish densely populated area to get the most benefit.

[simster3]

How come? I'd love one.

That's a cool map, I like the idea of a network of streetcar lines a lot (although not actually in mixed traffic), but I fear there would be no business case for them as you'd need a pretty dense network of them over a largish densely populated area to get the most benefit.

Its a relatively small street for something like that. Also the sound. I would be happy if they took out a lane of parking and put in a separted bike lane to connect 26th Ave bike lanes to Westbrook and the river network though.

A street car would be a better fit on a road like 37th St, it is wider and the homes there are already used to higher traffic volumes.

[milomilo]

Its a relatively small street for something like that. Also the sound. I would be happy if they took out a lane of parking and put in a separted bike lane to connect 26th Ave bike lanes to Westbrook and the river network though.

A street car would be a better fit on a road like 37th St, it is wider and the homes there are already used to higher traffic volumes.

Pedestrianise east of 22nd to 14th then and divert the traffic to 32nd and 34th, access is still available by the alleys. Then no noise from cars, just quiet electric trains.

I know, pedestrianised streets are forbidden in Calgary, but this is the fantasy thread! How much nicer would something like this (https://www.google.ca/maps/@52.953195,-1.147528,3a,75y,281.52h,82.16t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1skeb4C-IcizijuPd8PQV5UQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1) be?

[RyLucky]

How come? I'd love one.

That's a cool map, I like the idea of a network of streetcar lines a lot (although not actually in mixed traffic), but I fear there would be no business case for them as you'd need a pretty dense network of them over a largish densely populated area to get the most benefit.

Its a relatively small street for something like that. Also the sound. I would be happy if they took out a lane of parking and put in a separted bike lane to connect 26th Ave bike lanes to Westbrook and the river network though.

A street car would be a better fit on a road like 37th St, it is wider and the homes there are already used to higher traffic volumes.

I kind of like the idea of Streetcars for short distances on slow-moving (<30km/h) urban retail roads, especially when rapid transit isn't (and never will be) an option for the direction of travel. For example:

-Eau Claire-->Mission-->Erlton-->Ramsay-->Inglewood-->zoo-->1st ave (Bridgeland)--> Edmonton Tr-->16th ave/ctr st NCLRT station

Nobody would ever be expected to ride the whole thing, but maybe it would build character in those nearly-connected neighbourhoods like Spiller Rd, 4th St S, and Edmonton Trail. Busses are better for journeys more than about 2 km.

[milomilo]

I kind of like the idea of Streetcars for short distances on slow-moving (<30km/h) urban retail roads, especially when rapid transit isn't (and never will be) an option for the direction of travel. For example:

-Eau Claire-->Mission-->Erlton-->Ramsay-->Inglewood-->zoo-->1st ave (Bridgeland)--> Edmonton Tr-->16th ave/ctr st NCLRT station

Nobody would ever be expected to ride the whole thing, but maybe it would build character in those nearly-connected neighbourhoods like Spiller Rd, 4th St S, and Edmonton Trail. Busses are better for journeys more than about 2 km.

I wonder how those streetcars in Portland are doing? They definitely are only good for short distances and more for mobility than commuting. That's why I'm against the NCLRT being too streetcar like - it has far too far to travel to waste time on Centre Street.

I personally would gladly hop on a streetcar to go short distances(especially if there is a smartcard system), because unlike buses it's obvious where they are going. I would never do the same with a bus though, and I bet I'm not the only one.

[MasterG]

I wonder how those streetcars in Portland are doing? They definitely are only good for short distances and more for mobility than commuting. That's why I'm against the NCLRT being too streetcar like - it has far too far to travel to waste time on Centre Street.

I personally would gladly hop on a streetcar to go short distances(especially if there is a smartcard system), because unlike buses it's obvious where they are going. I would never do the same with a bus though, and I bet I'm not the only one.

The continuum of surface-level transit changes rapidly as soon as you give "street-cars" their own right-of-way and signal priority, even if it is on ground-level with minimum fencing and separation structures (walls, highway barriers etc.) from the surrounding area.

It will be interesting once designs are discussed. Modern LRTs can maintain high average speed, grade-level operations, and minimal barriers to cross traffic and pedestrians if implemented properly. Is Calgary capable of handling such a system? Much like Toronto (subways, subways, subways), the politicians, Calgary transit and the general public seems to exhibit Ctrain bias, as in the only way they can imagine a Ctrain line is the way we have currently built them, rather than what other cities are doing that could work better for city-building and transportation needs alike.

I would be very surprised if whatever the design team comes up with looks anything like the Portland Streetcar (or any streetcar system for that matter).

[googspecial]

A street car would be a better fit on a road like 37th St, it is wider and the homes there are already used to higher traffic volumes.

I had originally drawn it down 37 ST, but wanted to connect Currie Barracks better, and 33 ST just made more sense to me.

[milomilo]

I would be very surprised if whatever the design team comes up with looks anything like the Portland Streetcar (or any streetcar system for that matter).

Sorry if the Portland comment sounded as more of a poke at streetcars - I honestly am interested if they are successful in Portland. It's hard to filter articles.

[CrossedTheTracks]

I kind of like the idea of Streetcars for short distances on slow-moving (<30km/h) urban retail roads, especially when rapid transit isn't (and never will be) an option for the direction of travel. For example:

[snip]

Busses are better for journeys more than about 2 km.
That's a curious way of thinking about streetcars (not that you're alone...).

My frame of reference on streetcars is this: when I (briefly) lived in Toronto, I had the choice of either subway+subway to work, or a single streetcar (501). They took roughly the same amount of time, 25 minutes. I flipped back and forth depending on my mood!

There's no reason to think of streetcars as being for slow traffic, even when operating in mixed lanes. Certainly no reason to think of them as being slower than buses. There's only one thing that streetcars are really bad at: getting around obstacles on the track.

[ByeByeBaby]

That's a curious way of thinking about streetcars (not that you're alone...).

My frame of reference on streetcars is this: when I (briefly) lived in Toronto, I had the choice of either subway+subway to work, or a single streetcar (501). They took roughly the same amount of time, 25 minutes. I flipped back and forth depending on my mood!

There's no reason to think of streetcars as being for slow traffic, even when operating in mixed lanes. Certainly no reason to think of them as being slower than buses. There's only one thing that streetcars are really bad at: getting around obstacles on the track.

As you yourself say; in mixed traffic with the same stop spacing, they are no faster than buses, and the second there is an obstacle on the track then the streetcar is slower than the bus. And obstacles on the track aren't uncommon in an urban environment - ask me about the 5 minutes I spent on the streetcar in Portland behind a double-parked UPS truck.

[UofC.engineer]

As you yourself say; in mixed traffic with the same stop spacing, they are no faster than buses, and the second there is an obstacle on the track then the streetcar is slower than the bus. And obstacles on the track aren't uncommon in an urban environment - ask me about the 5 minutes I spent on the streetcar in Portland behind a double-parked UPS truck.

Yeah, sounds like a pain in the ass. I think the portland streetcars have very long headways too. About 15min in peak time IIRC. Why did portland reintroduce streetcars in 2001? Was it simply to encourage developer investment. Could Calgary do the same on streets that need an extra push? Is it even worth it? What are the benefits of a streetcar vs. a bus? To me streetcars have a cool factor associated with them. :cheers:

[CrossedTheTracks]

As you yourself say; in mixed traffic with the same stop spacing, they are no faster than buses, and the second there is an obstacle on the track then the streetcar is slower than the bus. And obstacles on the track aren't uncommon in an urban environment - ask me about the 5 minutes I spent on the streetcar in Portland behind a double-parked UPS truck.

Yeah, to clarify, I'm not claiming that streetcars are better than buses, but there's no good reason to pigeon-hole streetcars as "good for slow streets".

The one way that streetcars can be faster than bus is by avoiding the wait to pull back into traffic from a bus bay, since streetcars inherently don't do that. Of course, there's another solution to that: don't have pull-out bays for bus stops.

[MalcolmTucker]

Sorry if the Portland comment sounded as more of a poke at streetcars - I honestly am interested if they are successful in Portland. It's hard to filter articles.

If you want to rapidly gentrify an area a huge infrastructure investment helps. Hard to delineate between the effect of a street car, and the accompanying streetscape improvements though (opinion generally informed by literature I don't care to spend time looking up right now!). In the USA these go together as you need the streetcar to get federal funds for the entire project, and congress put funds earmarked specifically for Streetcars, so if you weren't attempting to build one you were potentially leaving money on the table.

We basically did this without a streetcar in the East Village and Bridgeland.

I could see the case to do this kind of infrastructure on the Bowness-Forestlawn BRT route as it would likely have a huge impact on redevelopment for the entire corridor. Would be expensive though for little travel time gain over buses with similar programming.

[RyLucky]

That's a curious way of thinking about streetcars (not that you're alone...).

My frame of reference on streetcars is this: when I (briefly) lived in Toronto, I had the choice of either subway+subway to work, or a single streetcar (501). They took roughly the same amount of time, 25 minutes. I flipped back and forth depending on my mood!

There's no reason to think of streetcars as being for slow traffic, even when operating in mixed lanes. Certainly no reason to think of them as being slower than buses. There's only one thing that streetcars are really bad at: getting around obstacles on the track.

Relative to a bus, Toronto street cars are bad at lots of things (avoiding obstacles and other broken streetcars, getting passengers hit by cars due to centre loading, wheelchair access, noise, leaving the roadway free of obstacles that pose risks to cyclists/wheelchairs/pedestrians, allowing cars to safely pass), but the newer technology can solve a lot of those issues. What streetcars ARE good at is ensuring a smooth-ish ride, acting as living heritage, making a sense of place, and psychologically comforting commuters that they are in the right spot.

I would argue that a huge proportion of the perception is just branding. People associate streetcar tracks with trendy neighbourhoods, reliable schedules, and a certain "upscale" or metropolitan form of transit. People associate busses with waiting in the cold, being in scary industrial parks late at night, etc. A related phenomenon occurred when CT incidentally changed deckles on busses at the same time as introducing express 101/104 and other routes before the WLRT. People began to associate the red busses with faster, more reliable service, even though only a few routes had any changes.

The limiting factor in terms of efficiency is Right of Way. Whether bus, BRT, LRT, Streetcar - it doesn't matter. Any of these forms can achieve the about same metrics for stops 800 m apart. Bus is by far the most versatile and inexpensive of these models until we are talking about a >50:1 passenger to driver ratio in all directions, at which point it is cheaper to operate LRT or streetcar (though typically LRT's are longer).

BUT... it's not that simple because people aren't that simple. If everyone perceives streetcars as safer, more comfortable, more reliable, etc, more people will ride them. The problem is that you never know how people might feel in the future, and I'm not sure it's responsible to offer the more expensive and less versatile option at the expense of existing services. If we wanted, we could start building schools out of sandstone again, but then again ATCO trailer portables have their advantages too, especially when we can build them for a fraction of the price.

If ever we were contemplating installing a streetcar, I'd ask:
1) Why not a bus?
2) Why not a natural gas powered bus?
3) Why not a bus with overhead power supply?

If someone can answer those three questions without bringing in psychology, kudos.

Otherwise, I think we need to revisit what we are trying to achieve with said streetcar. If the goal is generating sense of place/community/mobility for those who would not have boarded a bus for whatever reason, let's explore all the ways we might achieve those goals, and if streetcar is still the best bang for its buck (against things like improvements to sidewalks, bike lanes, new parks, etc), then so be it. I'm skeptical of mixed-traffic streetcars being the best fit for any street except those that connect disconnected, slow-moving retail streets to just-beyond-walking-distance transit hubs, for commuters travelling 1-3 km. Any less and you might as well walk; any more and the high speed you'd need to compete with a bus degrades the retail/street environment that the streetcar was intended to nurture in the first place, especially when there are already bus systems that extend all the way to the suburbs travelling in the same direction. That's why a Streetcar works well for a Neighbourhood like W Queen W (Toronto): it turns a 30 minute walk to the subway into a 17 minute streetcar ride, retail on Queen gets the benefit of being "in the loop" and a more metropolitan/urban, it honour's Toronto's pre-automobile history, and if you don't want to walk you can have shelter from rainy Ontario skies.

That said, modern low-floor streetcars with ROW are essentially LRTs. When I think STREETcar, I think of short vehicles that share ROW with vehicle traffic. Maybe the term is as obsolete as the old technology. Really all that matters is the degree of ROW.

[ByeByeBaby]

Sorry if the Portland comment sounded as more of a poke at streetcars - I honestly am interested if they are successful in Portland. It's hard to filter articles.

Modestly so; it performs well in terms of ridership relative to the other comparable US short-line central streetcars (Seattle, Tacoma, Salt Lake, Tucson) as well as all the heritage street cars (Tampa, Kenosha, Memphis etc.). But it has much lower ridership relative to most contemporary true (dedicated ROW) LRT systems.

I put together a bit of a comparison with three other downtown transit alternatives; in Calgary, the free fare zone, in Vancouver, two regular bus routes that circle the downtown and West End, and in DC the three lines of the Circulator bus system, a dedicated special frequent service low-cost bus. (The DC Circulator operates three other lines; one is new so there is no ridership info and the other two don't really go downtown at all and are unsurprisingly much less efficient.)

http://i.imgur.com/UFPrLA5.png

It seems clear that an attractive service can gather riders regardless of the vehicle type, and that Portland spent $250 million on capital where the other agencies just dedicated a handful of buses. Anything Portland gets a sheen of urbanism, but it's not that great from a transit perspective, particularly when compared to Calgary.

Streetcar boosters also point to the redevelopment potential, but as MalcolmTucker pointed out, we just did the same thing in the East Village with nicer sidewalks.

Mostly though, I'm just glad that the streetcar discussion is in the transit fantasy thread, where it belongs.

[MalcolmTucker]

In Portland it is important to point out two things: 1, since the service is so slow (6.5 mph), and so infrequent it is faster to walk for trips for trips under a mile according to Human Transit (http://www.humantransit.org/2010/04/streetcars-and-spontaneity.html). Also, unless the service is perfectly timed for transfers between the lines (it is probably perfectly offset), switching between the lines makes the system even slower, for an average 15 minute wait for a two line trip.

From a social policy perspective on streetcars, is it better to spread out gentrification so more people can afford to live in a high status neighbourhoods?

[milomilo]

In Portland it is important to point out two things: 1, since the service is so slow (6.5 mph), and so infrequent it is faster to walk for trips for trips under a mile according to Human Transit (http://www.humantransit.org/2010/04/streetcars-and-spontaneity.html). Also, unless the service is perfectly timed for transfers between the lines (it is probably perfectly offset), switching between the lines makes the system even slower, for an average 15 minute wait for a two line trip.

From a social policy perspective on streetcars, is it better to spread out gentrification so more people can afford to live in a high status neighbourhoods?

Seems to be that if building streetcars were free/money were no object, they would be great. But in a world of limited funds, they will almost always lose to other options.

[CalgaryAlex]

The poor design of stops in this city plays a large role in the negative perception of buses (and people yearning for streetcars as if they are magic). If the stop looks ghetto, your impression is already poor before you even step onto the vehicle.


If bus stops had better lighting, landscaping, shelter and furniture, potential passengers will feel more comfortable
Each stop should include an informative and clear map of the routes available at the stop. If you're walking along the street and notice a bus stop, what if you could take it and save 10 minutes walking to your destination? How the hell would you know without going online? This information needs to be evident and communicated properly
Unique (large) signage, symbols and lighting should attract potential users from blocks away. A simple aluminum post with a tiny blue and white sign is not enough. They need to "pop" out at you, not blend in with the sky and parking signage
Add digital boards with GPS-enabled "next bus" time tracking. If these boards are too much trouble, at least have some sort of indication that a bus will actually arrive at the stop if you wait long enough. I once waited for nearly an hour at an industrial park stop waiting for a bus before realizing that it was a seasonal stop with no service at the time. A simple LED with a "yes" or "no" will be enough for most people, allowing them to make a decision between waiting or finding another method of arriving at their destination

Make a few simple changes to the worst part of taking the bus (waiting at a stop) and the gap in attractiveness between bus and streetcar will narrow significantly.

[holhm22]

For bus stop info, HK is a good example.
They have all the route stops listed on the board. The board itself is 3 sided and can show info for 3 routes.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/66/HK_MK_Mongkok_Market_KMB_Bus_Stop_01a.jpg

[milomilo]

For bus stop info, HK is a good example.
They have all the route stops listed on the board. The board itself is 3 sided and can show info for 3 routes.
[IMG]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/66/HK_MK_Mongkok_Market_KMB_Bus_Stop_01a.jpg[IMG]

I actually think that shows perfectly why buses suck - there's seemingly dozens of routes there from three different operators, presumably with lots of overlap and weird scheduling. It looks very confusing. With a rail based system, because the infrastructure is expensive and fixed, you have far fewer routes and it is much simpler to know where and when it goes.

[RyLucky]

The poor design of stops in this city plays a large role in the negative perception of buses (and people yearning for streetcars as if they are magic). If the stop looks ghetto, your impression is already poor before you even step onto the vehicle.


If bus stops had better lighting, landscaping, shelter and furniture, potential passengers will feel more comfortable
Each stop should include an informative and clear map of the routes available at the stop. If you're walking along the street and notice a bus stop, what if you could take it and save 10 minutes walking to your destination? How the hell would you know without going online? This information needs to be evident and communicated properly
Unique (large) signage, symbols and lighting should attract potential users from blocks away. A simple aluminum post with a tiny blue and white sign is not enough. They need to "pop" out at you, not blend in with the sky and parking signage
Add digital boards with GPS-enabled "next bus" time tracking. If these boards are too much trouble, at least have some sort of indication that a bus will actually arrive at the stop if you wait long enough. I once waited for nearly an hour at an industrial park stop waiting for a bus before realizing that it was a seasonal stop with no service at the time. A simple LED with a "yes" or "no" will be enough for most people, allowing them to make a decision between waiting or finding another method of arriving at their destination

Make a few simple changes to the worst part of taking the bus (waiting at a stop) and the gap in attractiveness between bus and streetcar will narrow significantly.

Well said and good points. When are fare cards, GPS displays, and rear door loading coming again?

As for HK, Toronto has the same thing. Also, Milo makes a good point about how confusing it can be with so many routes, but that's a hard one to get around in a city like Calgary where buses from Downtown could lead anywhere in our low-density suburbs. For me, Google has been a real gamechanger when it comes to planning my route. I'm curious how new technology will better communicate this information in a few years.

[holhm22]

I actually think that shows perfectly why buses suck - there's seemingly dozens of routes there from three different operators, presumably with lots of overlap and weird scheduling. It looks very confusing. With a rail based system, because the infrastructure is expensive and fixed, you have far fewer routes and it is much simpler to know where and when it goes.

Oh wow really? In HK, no one actually looks at the scheduling really as buses come very often. If you experience it yourself, it's not as bad as it looks, trust me. But the 3 operator part is really a pain, since they do use the same route #s in different areas for the different operators. Then again, it's Hong Kong, so the whole city is pretty confusing :P

At least those info boards, even if confusing, is better than nothing at all!

[UofC.engineer]

The poor design of stops in this city plays a large role in the negative perception of buses (and people yearning for streetcars as if they are magic). If the stop looks ghetto, your impression is already poor before you even step onto the vehicle.


If bus stops had better lighting, landscaping, shelter and furniture, potential passengers will feel more comfortable
Each stop should include an informative and clear map of the routes available at the stop. If you're walking along the street and notice a bus stop, what if you could take it and save 10 minutes walking to your destination? How the hell would you know without going online? This information needs to be evident and communicated properly
Unique (large) signage, symbols and lighting should attract potential users from blocks away. A simple aluminum post with a tiny blue and white sign is not enough. They need to "pop" out at you, not blend in with the sky and parking signage
Add digital boards with GPS-enabled "next bus" time tracking. If these boards are too much trouble, at least have some sort of indication that a bus will actually arrive at the stop if you wait long enough. I once waited for nearly an hour at an industrial park stop waiting for a bus before realizing that it was a seasonal stop with no service at the time. A simple LED with a "yes" or "no" will be enough for most people, allowing them to make a decision between waiting or finding another method of arriving at their destination

Make a few simple changes to the worst part of taking the bus (waiting at a stop) and the gap in attractiveness between bus and streetcar will narrow significantly.

:cheers:

I think you nailed it! To me these improvements don't seem too expensive with the technology we have. But I guess I shouldn't talk, Calgary transit can't even get a fare card implemented.

[CalgaryAlex]

I actually think that shows perfectly why buses suck - there's seemingly dozens of routes there from three different operators, presumably with lots of overlap and weird scheduling. It looks very confusing. With a rail based system, because the infrastructure is expensive and fixed, you have far fewer routes and it is much simpler to know where and when it goes.

It is confusing, but the HK example is better than our "Bus symbol and bus number with single neighbourhood description" signs.

However, design has come a long way since those HK signs were created. You can draw bus routes on a map in the same style that a train or streetcar route is drawn, but currently you get these crazy little lines that take forever to understand.

[CalgaryAlex]

Also, I don't understand why some bus stops get to be "nice" with a shelter, some are "tolerable" with a dirty bench, and some are "complete shit" with a simple sign and a mud hole to stand beside.

There should be a certain standard all stops are held to (while taking into consideration the amount of space available). There's no reason why someone commuting home from an industrial park should be standing in the rain or trying to stay upright on an icy hillside while someone commuting from their neighbourhood gets a shelter and bench to sit on.

It's inconsistency that plays a large part in making taking the bus a pain in the ass.

[MalcolmTucker]

:cheers:

I think you nailed it! To me these improvements don't seem too expensive with the technology we have. But I guess I shouldn't talk, Calgary transit can't even get a fare card implemented.

Vancouver hasn't been able to get 'tap out' to work on buses for their $200 million system yet, and is eliminating fare zones because of it - I for one am proud we only wasted $10 million!

[MalcolmTucker]

Also, I don't understand why some bus stops get to be "nice" with a shelter, some are "tolerable" with a dirty bench, and some are "complete shit" with a simple sign and a mud hole to stand beside.

There should be a certain standard all stops are held to (while taking into consideration the amount of space available). There's no reason why someone commuting home from an industrial park should be standing in the rain or trying to stay upright on an icy hillside while someone commuting from their neighbourhood gets a shelter and bench to sit on.

It's inconsistency that plays a large part in making taking the bus a pain in the ass.

The marketing contractor gets to make these decisions I think, and it is solely based on if they think they can sell the marketing.

[DizzyEdge]

Some Winnipeg bus stops:

http://greenactioncentre.ca/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/IMG_2026_brighter-225x300.jpg
http://greenactioncentre.ca/

http://c8.alamy.com/comp/C6EXJK/university-of-winnipeg-bus-stop-manitoba-canada-C6EXJK.jpg
www.alamy.com

http://media.mediatemple.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/uploader/images/signs/multi-directional-bus-stop/full_multi-directional-bus-stop.jpg
http://www.smashingmagazine.com/street-and-wayfinding-signs-part-4/

[CalgaryAlex]

The marketing contractor gets to make these decisions I think, and it is solely based on if they think they can sell the marketing.

Obviously it's time for that arrangement to end. An advertising company should not make decisions which affect the livelihoods of transit users in this city. If Calgary is keen on designing a world-class transit system in all respects, they should be motivated to improving this portion of it.

[CalgaryAlex]

Some Winnipeg bus stops:

Bam, I love it. Clear, stands out... that's the direction we should be taking.

[MalcolmTucker]

Obviously the city thinks it is better to subsidize the system less, or have lower fares, than have bus shelters everywhere. Only really one option: write a letter. I think TransitCamp is still active, they might be able to get behind this.

Also, there was talk of a citizens service standards panel at one point?

[DizzyEdge]

With the caveat that Winnipeg doesn't have LRT, so bus is their primary transit.

[RyLucky]

The Netherlands for years now:
http://www.data-display.com/file/images/installations/thumbs/chapel-hill-passenger-information.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3759/12223279765_5d67656e64_m.jpg

[CalgaryAlex]

The Netherlands for years now:

Exactly, this has been done in numerous places. So... I guess the "fantasy" here is that Calgary Transit somehow gets their shit together and implements a transit system worthy of a large, ambitious city in the year 2015.

[MasterG]

Exactly, this has been done in numerous places. So... I guess the "fantasy" here is that Calgary Transit somehow gets their shit together and implements a transit system worthy of a large, ambitious city in the year 2015.

Totally agree. While I feel there is a constant march of tiny improvements the past 10 years that make a difference with little fanfare (improved train time screens at stops, better mapping, better app, improved websites, LRT station improvements and athetics etc.) All of this seems to be done as cautiously and slowly as possible.

It's almost as if Calgary Transit doesn't want you to ride their buses sometimes. Not that it is entirely all their fault, they are often hamstrung by mandatory service minimums eating up budget on stupid routes and the whole coverage vs. efficiency balance issue that many transit organization have.

It just feels the progress - or lack there of - is routed in a cultural aspect of CT. As if the various committees and people in charge have never left the city to see what is happening elsewhere, talked to a young person, or imagine a world where CT is actually the best choice for all forms, not just LRT, but buses too. This isn't quite fair, I know they are trying with various customer committees, but progress is slow and the cities evolves quicker than they will be able to.

My pet peeve is night transit. Surely an expensive and highly subsidized affair, but most other serious cities have it all over. I have seen it come up and it's a hilarious argument on council. A bunch of 40, 50 and 60 year old men debating whether young people will use it with no nuance or representation of what people actually do. Some councillors sound like they haven't talked to anyone under 30 since they were that age. As you can imagine, not a whole lot comes of their debating night transit. They are so removed from the use-cases for it, they could never champion the idea.

How can so many other cities operate high-frequency rail and buses running until 3am on weekends evenings and nights and we can only manage 1:25am as last train and no buses to speak of?

[ByeByeBaby]

My pet peeve is night transit. Surely an expensive and highly subsidized affair, but most other serious cities have it all over. I have seen it come up and it's a hilarious argument on council. A bunch of 40, 50 and 60 year old men debating whether young people will use it with no nuance or representation of what people actually do. Some councillors sound like they haven't talked to anyone under 30 since they were that age. As you can imagine, not a whole lot comes of their debating night transit. They are so removed from the use-cases for it, they could never champion the idea.

How can so many other cities operate high-frequency rail and buses running until 3am on weekends evenings and nights and we can only manage 1:25am as last train and no buses to speak of?

Not expensive at all; the study has been done (http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news/late-night-calgary-buses-would-need-15-riders-per-hour-to-made-sense-calgary-transit) and an initial late night transit system would cost all of 50 cents per Calgarian per year.

[RyLucky]

Exactly, this has been done in numerous places. So... I guess the "fantasy" here is that Calgary Transit somehow gets their shit together and implements a transit system worthy of a large, ambitious city in the year 2015.

I'd settle for a large, ambitious city in 2006.

[RyLucky]

My pet peeve is night transit. Surely an expensive and highly subsidized affair, but most other serious cities have it all over. I have seen it come up and it's a hilarious argument on council. A bunch of 40, 50 and 60 year old men debating whether young people will use it with no nuance or representation of what people actually do. Some councillors sound like they haven't talked to anyone under 30 since they were that age. As you can imagine, not a whole lot comes of their debating night transit. They are so removed from the use-cases for it, they could never champion the idea.

How can so many other cities operate high-frequency rail and buses running until 3am on weekends evenings and nights and we can only manage 1:25am as last train and no buses to speak of?

It reminds me of the philosophy around cycletracks: There has to be some minimum level of access before we can argue about how much or little we should fund. At the bare minimum, Calgary should have 24-hour C-train service, even if that means just one in each direction every hour between 12-5. It would only take hiring 4 drivers and maybe 4-8 security guards and a tech for a whopping total of 45-65 manhours/night. Call it 2-4 FTE positions per year. How are we not doing this in a city where you can spend hours waiting for a cab?

[milomilo]

It reminds me of the philosophy around cycletracks: There has to be some minimum level of access before we can argue about how much or little we should fund. At the bare minimum, Calgary should have 24-hour C-train service, even if that means just one in each direction every hour between 12-5. It would only take hiring 4 drivers and maybe 4-8 security guards and a tech for a whopping total of 45-65 manhours/night. Call it 2-4 FTE positions per year. How are we not doing this in a city where you can spend hours waiting for a cab?

Would make maintenance a lot more difficult. Really a night bus network is more suitable, not many cities offer 24/7 rail service even if they do have great night bus networks.

[JordanBerndt]

Would make maintenance a lot more difficult. Really a night bus network is more suitable, not many cities offer 24/7 rail service even if they do have great night bus networks.

To my knowledge, thought I might be wrong, the only cities in the world that do are New York, Chicago and London, and obviously, Calgary has no where near the population or density to match those.

Most cities over a million, however, do have a some sort of skeletal late-night bus system, and I think something like that could work in Calgary, with buses running every half-hour (or even 45 minutes) from Stephen Avenue and 17th alongside the LRT and BRT lines and back.

[MasterG]

To my knowledge, thought I might be wrong, the only cities in the world that do are New York, Chicago and London, and obviously, Calgary has no where near the population or density to match those.

Most cities over a million, however, do have a some sort of skeletal late-night bus system, and I think something like that could work in Calgary, with buses running every half-hour (or even 45 minutes) from Stephen Avenue and 17th alongside the LRT and BRT lines and back.

Several European cities also operate 24 hour service, but you are right it is not common with rail.

I would just be happy to have better weekend evening service, even if it's not quite 24 hours. For example, Vienna (2 million or so people btw) runs their metro with roughly CTrain hours during the week. However on Friday and Saturday nights it runs 24 hours because shockingly that's when many people go into the city centre for the nightlife.

If Calgary Transit has a public responsibility to move people around they have completely ignored this responsibility for the weekend evening crowd, numbering in the 10s of thousands. It's my number one pet peeve that many, many cities do infinitely better.

[People.talking]

Since this is a fanasty thread,how bout some street cars in the belt line and 17th ave

[JordanBerndt]

Since this is a fanasty thread,how bout some street cars in the belt line and 17th ave

I didn't include it in my map, but I do think a streetcar that runs down 17th Avenue to Marda Loop and MRU would make a lot of sense. That corridor could use heavier transit than just a bus line but it's also too short to justify building an entire LRT line for just 4 or 5 stops.

[DizzyEdge]

I'd love to see a streetcar or bus route that did the whole circuit of Kensington/Bridgeland/Inglewood/Stephen Ave/4th St/17th Ave/Marda Loop

[milomilo]

I'd love to see a streetcar or bus route that did the whole circuit of Kensington/Bridgeland/Inglewood/Stephen Ave/4th St/17th Ave/Marda Loop

Maybe go a bit further, something like this?

https://i.imgur.com/diiJE3H.png

Impossible, we could never have something like that in Calgary!

:(

[canucklehead2]

The sad thing about every major community across Canada is that we like the Americans HAD major streetcar/LRT networks even in smaller regional communities and we let the Automotive/Petroleum coalition sweep in and destroy everything that was built over several generations... To even replace a portion of the network would probably be staggering.

Having said that, I'd love to see a study of exactly that. How much would it cost to rebuild every streetcar network destroyed and then how much it would cost to expand it to where it should be now for a city of its size.

At least there are now a plethora of options on how to do this more cost effectively... I present a few ideas for y'all to discuss...

01-Bombardier Primove trams https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexi_trams

These streetcars run at up to 50 km/h without wires and charge in 10 second bursts at station stops whilst picking up passengers. They can also be equipped with Primove technology that allows buried induction drawn power which like a stove is super safe since even if someone fell onto the induction charger while power nothing would happen unless they were wearing a metal ring or bracelet that conducts electricity WHILE being under the train which is physically impossible...


02-Autonomous Rail Rapid Transit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_Rail_Rapid_Transit

Basically the Montreal subway come unhinged aka an LRT train that runs on rubber tyres like a bus but follows a dedicated track. In Montreal's case? A physical guide-rail. In this new tech? A painted magnetic stripe that is used by dumb robots in factories around the world like Tesla in Fremont and what GM thought all cars in the future would use to drive themselves on future highways in the year 2000. From what I can tell all the Chinese did was bundle a bunch of dead tech together and create a winning formula that I guarantee will see widespread adoption around the world in the next 10 years.

If you can replicate SUBWAY-like efficiencies at developing-world bus prices, that's a winning formula for many a city... A jacked version of Curitiba BRT if you will...

[MalcolmTucker]

If they can solve the guided busway problem—too even wear—it could be a winner.

[canucklehead2]

Maybe go a bit further, something like this?

https://i.imgur.com/diiJE3H.png

Impossible, we could never have something like that in Calgary!

:(

YOU do know that's THE REAL map from the 1945 original streetcar network RIGHT?

https://i0.wp.com/erinlyyc.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/calgary-1945-streetcar.gif

NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE, SIR!:P

1946 for example...
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ab/Calgary_municipal_railway%2C_1946.jpg

Even the trolley bus network was as extensive as that...

This was it at phase out... http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-HG4gBaEsvVg/Ue0j6mICreI/AAAAAAAACiM/ugbPWn1QVxQ/s640/calgary_map.jpg


Even that system probably add's up to 50 KM+

[milomilo]

Yeah that was what I was getting at...

[canucklehead2]

Yeah that was what I was getting at...

Just checking. ;) You'd be surprised how dangerously ignorant people are these days. You don't even need to read a newspaper or turn on a TV for proof.