What is your relationship with your neighbouring provinces, territories, and states?

[SignalHillHiker]

I'm curious how you view your relationship with your neighbouring provinces, territories and states?

Do you get along? What motivates your relationship?

*****

Newfoundland and Labrador has two land borders and four maritime borders.

http://i48.tinypic.com/20zw5lv.png

1. Nunavut: Our relationship is non-existent. The border is on an isolated island that is basically unpopulated by either political entity's people. However, our Innu people, of course, have strong ties across all northern borders. Also, as the Northwest Passage is developed, this relationship could become economically and strategically viable.

2. Quebec: Politically, the relationship is awful, absolutely toxic. We are probably the two most viciously opposed provinces in Canada - and it would be a BIG problem for the country if Newfoundland mattered federally. Between individual Newfoundlanders and Quebeckers/Quebecois, it is very often an especially close relationship. Despite our linguistic and political differences, there is often a curiously strong sense of, "Oh, you're not ROC, you're like us" between individuals.

3. St-Pierre-et-Miquelon, France: Our closest neighbour, oddly, on the island. The relationship is fantastic politically. Until 9/11, France even granted special privileges to Newfoundlanders visiting St-Pierre-et-Miquelon. There is still some hesitation on the French side, as they grow up learning about the genocide of French people in Newfoundland and the exodus to the two islands offshore they now call home. The fact Newfoundland students learn nothing about this era of history creates a soft conflict between us, as the French - who do not expect us to wallow in sorrow - find it offensive that we generally know nothing about what is the central story of their identity. The French will often test you out with a few questions before becoming friendly, just to make sure you both agree on which world we live in. Still, they generally love visiting Newfoundland and there's no shortage of SPM license plates on the road (ha!). They also have the ability, one many take advantage of, to own cottages on the south coast of N.L.

4. Maritimes (3 martime borders): Politically, the relationship is excellent. Everything that makes the relationship between N.L. and Quebec toxic encourages N.L. to seek out better relationships with the Maritime provinces than would otherwise exist. The ferries linking North Sydney, Nova Scotia and Channel-Port-aux-Basques, Newfoundland, are a significant economic benefit to both communities.

[Acajack]

Quebec’s borders (Part I)

Ontario: Quebec and Ontario are like brothers who have chosen different paths in life. They see each other regularly at family gatherings several times a year but they probably couldn’t be called “best friends”. It’s just not that type of relationship. One thing I find surprising is that neither province is keen on taking cues from the other – as if there was nothing to be learned from the way things were done on the other side of the Ottawa River.

That said, political disputes between the two provinces are really rare. The only one I can think of was over the mobility of construction workers some years ago. Quebec construction is a unionized closed shop with competency cards, etc., and Ontario’s is mostly wide open. The result was (and is) that a lot of Quebec construction workers can and do work in Ontario, whereas it is difficult for Ontario construction workers to work in Ontario – although the Quebec competency system has been opened up to them.

Beyond that, it is really quiet on the political front. There is a huge amount of
trade and exchanges but each side also does its own thing.

There are some local issues in places like Ottawa-Gatineau where there is a perception that people from Quebec occupy a disproportionate number of jobs in Ottawa (often inaccessible to many Ottawans because of a bilingualism requirement), and also that people from Gatineau use Ottawa services like hospitals,colleges, universities, etc. People in Ottawa also feel that Gatineau people don’t pay their fair share for these services, something that is flatly denied by Gatineau people – there is no consensus on who is right. Ottawa people also do not like the fact that government signage (provincial and municipal) in Ottawa is very bilingual whereas in Gatineau it is generally in French only.

Gatineau people find that Ottawa people can behave rather badly when having “fun” on the Quebec side of the river: the old stereotype about anglos not being able to hold their liquor. They also find that too few Ottawa people make an effort to speak French – even if they move to Gatineau to take advantage of the cheaper real estate. Another pet peeve is that quite a few Ontario people who live in Gatineau commit income tax fraud (to pay lower Ontario taxes) by keeping a fake address in Ottawa even though they live in Quebec and use our services. One way to spot them is Ontario licence plates in driveways and apartment building parking lots that are there overnight over many months. There are lots.

Beyond the Ottawa-Gatineau area where there is close contact, personal contacts are minimal and would primarily family-related. This is especially true of Franco-Ontarian families who tend to have Quebec relatives, and also Anglo-Quebecers who likely have relatives in Ontario. But the wider populations who do not have these ties have few relationships with people in the other province.

That said, everybody is still nice and civil. But not warm and fuzzy.

[Acajack]

Quebec's borders (Part II):

New Brunswick: Politically there is not much to say either, except perhaps that that issue with Ontario and construction workers has existed here as well in the past. Generally on a national level the premier of New Brunswick (especially if he is Acadian) has often acted as a bridge between Quebec and the rest of Canada at conferences and meetings. NB is definitely the ROC province that feels the most in tune with Quebec. NB doesn’t always side with Quebec, but it “gets” Quebec. Part of this is surely due to the fact that northern parts of NB that border Quebec tend to be primarily francophone. People in these regions do not consider themselves to be pseudo-Québécois by any stretch (they are Acadians, or in NW NB, Brayons) but there is a definitive commonality. For sure, there are some things about the Québécois that NB francophones find odd or even get on their nerves, but when you get down it it is a pretty close relationship (even closer than with Franco-Ontarians I’d say).

Once you get down into the more anglo parts of NB it’s quite similar to Ontario: nice and polite but not many affinities or much commonality. I suspect that a lot of people probably can’t really tell people from Quebec apart from NB Acadians anyway – at least not from casual contact in public places.

Newfoundland and Labrador: I agree with Hiker about the personal relationships – these are quite rare given the geographic distances and migration patterns, but when they do meet they do share some commonality as Canada’s two biggest outliers.

Politically the whole Churchill Falls issue is largely moot in Quebec. I doubt most people would even be aware of it, and if it was, the most historically-minded would point the land that Quebec has claimed in southern Labrador since the 1920s. As recently as a few months my Quebec’s driver’s licence still had the entire Ungava peninsula on it (including Labrador) although there was a pale line where the border with Labrador is.

Overall, most people’s views of Newfoundlanders are from outdated Newfie jokes (were popular in Quebec at one time but now seem to have completely disappeared), an image perhaps reinforced by the negative and crackpot image that NL premiers like Clyde Wells and Danny Williams have had in the Quebec media. Brian Tobin is also associated by some people with alleged or perceived federal “cheating” shenanigans in the 1995 referendum.

Nunavut: I am not aware of any political issues with these guys. The region that borders Nunavut is largely populated by the Inuit people (and to a much lesser degree, the Cree). There are exchanges between the Quebec Inuit in Nunavik region, people in Nunavut, and also Inuit communities in far northern Labrador.

[Acajack]

Quebec's borders (Part III):

American states: Quebec has borders with New York, Vermont, New Hampshire and Maine. There are few political issues and there is quite a bit of trade with them. Quebec helps keep the lights on in much of this part of the U.S., and Hydro-Québec always sends teams down to help out when the weather pulls down their power lines and blacks them out. Likewise when Quebec was hit with the ice storm in 1998 several American states sent teams north to help out. Lots of people I know were hooked back up by U.S. power crews.

Overall, the American neighbours tend to be quite aloof when it comes to Quebec. This is especially true of NY state which is huge and has many big cities including the biggest one of all. Quebec doesn’t register much on the radar beyond a few km from the border except for a quick “you guys are French up there, right?” before moving on to something else.

The other three states are much smaller in population and compared to NY, also have a much larger share of their populations that are of French-Canadian origin: roughly 25% in NH and ME. Not that many people speak French there (except for a few border towns), but the level of awareness is much higher. Plus, because the populations are much smaller than NY the impact of Quebec tourists is much more visible than in NY, where we are just a drop in the bucket. The area around Old Orchard Beach on the Maine coast is the closest oceanfront from Montreal – it is a very popular summer destination. Almost part of Québécois lore in fact. Many businesses in this region hoist the Quebec flag and post signs that say “nous parlons français”.

[kwoldtimer]

Quebec’s borders (Part I)

Ontario: Quebec and Ontario are like brothers who have chosen different paths in life. They see each other regularly at family gatherings several times a year but they probably couldn’t be called “best friends”. It’s just not that type of relationship. One thing I find surprising is that neither province is keen on taking cues from the other – as if there was nothing to be learned from the way things were done on the other side of the Ottawa River.

That said, political disputes between the two provinces are really rare. The only one I can think of was over the mobility of construction workers some years ago. Quebec construction is a unionized closed shop with competency cards, etc., and Ontario’s is mostly wide open. The result was (and is) that a lot of Quebec construction workers can and do work in Ontario, whereas it is difficult for Ontario construction workers to work in Ontario – although the Quebec competency system has been opened up to them.

Beyond that, it is really quiet on the political front. There is a huge amount of
trade and exchanges but each side also does its own thing.

There are some local issues in places like Ottawa-Gatineau where there is a perception that people from Quebec occupy a disproportionate number of jobs in Ottawa (often inaccessible to many Ottawans because of a bilingualism requirement), and also that people from Gatineau use Ottawa services like hospitals,colleges, universities, etc. People in Ottawa also feel that Gatineau people don’t pay their fair share for these services, something that is flatly denied by Gatineau people – there is no consensus on who is right. Ottawa people also do not like the fact that government signage (provincial and municipal) in Ottawa is very bilingual whereas in Gatineau it is generally in French only.

Gatineau people find that Ottawa people can behave rather badly when having “fun” on the Quebec side of the river: the old stereotype about anglos not being able to hold their liquor. They also find that too few Ottawa people make an effort to speak French – even if they move to Gatineau to take advantage of the cheaper real estate. Another pet peeve is that quite a few Ontario people who live in Gatineau commit income tax fraud (to pay lower Ontario taxes) by keeping a fake address in Ottawa even though they live in Quebec and use our services. One way to spot them is Ontario licence plates in driveways and apartment building parking lots that are there overnight over many months. There are lots.

Beyond the Ottawa-Gatineau area where there is close contact, personal contacts are minimal and would primarily family-related. This is especially true of Franco-Ontarian families who tend to have Quebec relatives, and also Anglo-Quebecers who likely have relatives in Ontario. But the wider populations who do not have these ties have few relationships with people in the other province.

That said, everybody is still nice and civil. But not warm and fuzzy.

Ontario and Quebec - the two sides of the same coin. Have vastly more in common than either likes to admit, although that gets shakier as you move east of Montreal. Intimately linked by ties of family (at least among old Anglo and Franco stock) and shared history. Perhaps a bit like first cousins living in different towns who tend only to see each other at weddings and funerals.

[SignalHillHiker]

Addendum that could be of interest to Francophone Canadians. I just learned from a Frenchman who moved to N.L. from Paris that there was a popular television series in France set in St-Pierre-et-Miquelon:

http://www.imdb.fr/title/tt0214345/

[Acajack]

Addendum that could be of interest to Francophone Canadians. I just learned from a Frenchman who moved to N.L. from Paris that there was a popular television series in France set in St-Pierre-et-Miquelon:

http://www.imdb.fr/title/tt0214345/

Thanks.

This is probably the most well-know production involving SPM:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Widow_of_Saint-Pierre

Quite a few Quebec actors played in this, including a close relative of someone I know.

[Acajack]

BTW - did you know that SPM is the French acronym for PMS? :haha:

[SignalHillHiker]

BTW - did you know that SPM is the French acronym for PMS? :haha:

:haha:

No, but I love that. Especially since that's what their license plates say.

I just love how French they are. The contrast with N.L. is hilarious, in positive and negative ways. As examples from my own life:

Positive: Everyone over 30 in St-Pierre-et-Miquelin looks, at minimum, 15 years younger than their counterparts in Newfoundland. They start every morning with a walk to one of the bakeries, have endlessly long lunches, all of summer off on vacations, etc. Also, style is 10 years ahead. Last time I was in St-Pierre was about 10 years ago and they were wearing skinny jeans and big scarves then.

Negative: Smoking. All the time. Everywhere. If you ever see anyone in Newfoundland light up a smoke in the mall, or the hospital waiting room, or the McDonald's, or on the city bus... approach them in French, because I guarantee they are in from St-Pierre. And no personal boundaries. If anyone at the restaurant gets up, walks over to your table, and slaps your child for being loud - tell them off in French, because, again... but brace yourself for the reaction. "Not only you can't control it, and make me to do it, but then DARE mad at me for that favour!?"

[kwoldtimer]

:haha:

...............
And no personal boundaries. If anyone at the restaurant gets up, walks over to your table, and slaps your child for being loud - tell them off in French, because, again... but brace yourself for the reaction. "Not only you can't control it, and make me to do it, but then DARE mad at me for that favour!?"

Culture shock! Try hitting a stranger's child in Ontario and the wrath of God (and the full force of the State) would be upon you! I cant even imagine.

[PoscStudent]

Besides the Upper Churchill and Quebec not allowing Newfoundland and Labrador transmission rights through the province I don't think there's any other issues between both provinces.

[Rico Rommheim]

So what exactly is this Upper Churchill dispute, never heard it it!

[kwoldtimer]

Besides the Upper Churchill and Quebec not allowing Newfoundland and Labrador transmission rights through the province I don't think there's any other issues between both provinces.

Labrador's borders? Offshore oil in the Gulf?

[SignalHillHiker]

I don't think Quebec recognizes any of Labrador as part of N.L.

[MonkeyRonin]

Beyond the Ottawa-Gatineau area where there is close contact, personal contacts are minimal and would primarily family-related. This is especially true of Franco-Ontarian families who tend to have Quebec relatives, and also Anglo-Quebecers who likely have relatives in Ontario. But the wider populations who do not have these ties have few relationships with people in the other province.


I think the relationships are a little more widespread than that. Most immigrant families will inevitably have the "cousin in Montreal (or Vancouver, or Calgary, or Ottawa)". And all the movement into Toronto in the 70s split plenty of families between the two cities (though I guess thats what you were inferring with the Anglo-Quebecers thing).

There's also lots of interaction between Toronto and Montreal within the "arts & music crowd" (or, y'know, just "hipsters"). Aside from travels, I've also known plenty of Torontonians who've spent time living in Montreal, or vice versa - which inevitably leads to those interprovincial friendships.

[lio45]

Quebec's borders (Part III):

American states: Quebec has borders with New York, Vermont, New Hampshire and Maine. There are few political issues and there is quite a bit of trade with them. Quebec helps keep the lights on in much of this part of the U.S., and Hydro-Québec always sends teams down to help out when the weather pulls down their power lines and blacks them out. Likewise when Quebec was hit with the ice storm in 1998 several American states sent teams north to help out. Lots of people I know were hooked back up by U.S. power crews.

Overall, the American neighbours tend to be quite aloof when it comes to Quebec. This is especially true of NY state which is huge and has many big cities including the biggest one of all. Quebec doesn’t register much on the radar beyond a few km from the border except for a quick “you guys are French up there, right?” before moving on to something else.

The other three states are much smaller in population and compared to NY, also have a much larger share of their populations that are of French-Canadian origin: roughly 25% in NH and ME. Not that many people speak French there (except for a few border towns), but the level of awareness is much higher. Plus, because the populations are much smaller than NY the impact of Quebec tourists is much more visible than in NY, where we are just a drop in the bucket. The area around Old Orchard Beach on the Maine coast is the closest oceanfront from Montreal – it is a very popular summer destination. Almost part of Québécois lore in fact. Many businesses in this region hoist the Quebec flag and post signs that say “nous parlons français”.

Also, our neighbors are kind enough to provide us with cheap airports (Plattsburgh and Burlington) where we don't get screwed by airport fees. Plattsburgh is a bit too far for me, but I normally fly either from Burlington or Boston (even cheaper in most cases from my experience). In the Montreal area though I know many people do fly from Plattsburgh -- I think they're even branding themselves as Montreal's other airport.

And they provide us with cheap fuel as well. When I'm in Magog, unless in a hurry, I like to take the time to go fill up in Derby Line (plus I always have my 20-liter canister in the trunk as well) and every time I visit my in-laws I cross to fill up in Clarksville NH, a two-minute drive from their house. (If more Québécois did like me, maybe then we'd have a more reasonable fuel tax rate...)

Electronics as well... and many other things... with the dollar on par, it's incredible how much the retailers are screwing us up up here.

But they don't seem to like Hydro-Québec that much... plenty of "Stop Hydro-Qc" and "Back off Hydro-Qc" signs everywhere in northern NH. (Opposition to a new power line through the area...)

There was also some friction over a windmill project next to Stanstead on the Vermont side... basically, what happened is the appropriate local authorities in Vermont gave their green light to the project as it respected the minimum distance requirements from all houses located in their jurisdiction...

But generally speaking, the relationship is very good, and tourists are welcome on both sides...

[vid]

Manitoba and Minnesota are just parts of my region that are trapped on the other side of a line.

Southern Ontario is Mexico.

[Dmajackson]

For Nova Scotia its pretty simple;

New Brunswick & PEI: Connected via three bridges and two ferries these provinces are part of the 'Maritime Triplets'. All of the same age and all at one time a single colony we share everything. Conflicts are extremely rare and the few recent examples are very minor in nature and are similar to sibling fights. Halifax and Moncton are the main forces but ultimately with both growing off of their very different strengths both are secretly jealous of the other in some manner. In true PEI fashion the Island is very quiet and never speaks up. The last big news between NS & PEI was the opening of Confederation Bridge and that was just because it became faster to drive via New Brunswick than Caribou Island.

On the ground the borders don't really exist between the three. The only noticeable things are the bridge/ferry fares, and the bilingual signs in New Brunswick. Settled families are commonly split between all three provinces and locals identify as 'Maritimer' before their individual province (and sometimes even Canada).

Newfoundland and Nova Scotia don't really communicate with each other though this will change with Lower Churchill. Also we tend to like NFLD's fierce independent attitude and try to copy it at times (ABC anyone?).

The only other relationship is with Massachusetts. They were the first to aid Halifax in its time of need. Tie that in with strong historical trading ties and we owe them a tonne of gratitude and make sure to help immediately when needed.

[kwoldtimer]

Ontario and Michigan. Except for a certain owner of a bridge monopoly, the relationship is very productive and positive.

[P. Alouishous]

If anyone at the restaurant gets up, walks over to your table, and slaps your child for being loud - tell them off in French, because, again... but brace yourself for the reaction. "Not only you can't control it, and make me to do it, but then DARE mad at me for that favour!?"

This is great. Nothing in this world is worse than parents who refuse to control their loud obnoxious children in public.

[P. Alouishous]

I think the relationships are a little more widespread than that. Most immigrant families will inevitably have the "cousin in Montreal (or Vancouver, or Calgary, or Ottawa)". And all the movement into Toronto in the 70s split plenty of families between the two cities (though I guess thats what you were inferring with the Anglo-Quebecers thing).

There's also lots of interaction between Toronto and Montreal within the "arts & music crowd" (or, y'know, just "hipsters"). Aside from travels, I've also known plenty of Torontonians who've spent time living in Montreal, or vice versa - which inevitably leads to those interprovincial friendships.

Yeah, I've noticed this. There's a lot of back and forth partying between Toronto and Montreal. They're only 5 hours apart with lots of train and bus (and supercheap Megabus) travel options.

And re: the Anglo-Quebecers: it does seem like a lot of people in Toronto have grandparents in Montreal.

[MonkeyRonin]

http://i48.tinypic.com/20zw5lv.png



Heh, never noticed that random little bit of Nunavut on the tip of the Labrador Peninsula there. Wonder why the border was drawn right there.

[le calmar]

I don't know if that's a mistake, but Google Earth also shows a land border between Nunavut and Quebec near the islands in James Bay.

[isaidso]

So what exactly is this Upper Churchill dispute, never heard it it!

I'm assuming you were being sarcastic. Relations between NL and PQ have been extremely frosty for decades because of it.

[rousseau]

As a young'un, nary a thought ever crossed my mind about Quebec, Manitoba or Michigan. We knew about New York (state) because of the TV out of Buffalo--any person in the Golden Horseshoe above 30 will recognize the name Irv Weinstein of "Eye Witness News" fame.

Having moved to a tourist town in the western half of southern Ontario, I'm now surrounded by Michigan licence plates during the summer and fall. One neighbour has mentioned going on a shopping trip to a German-themed town in Michigan. And a couple from Michigan even bought a B&B four doors down from us. They're very fat. As is the custom in southern Ontario, I've never actually made an effort to go and talk to them, as they live too far from my house and they've only been here for three years or so. It would be weird to break the barrier too soon. But now the B&B is up for sale. I suspect that being entranced with the place as a visitor during the summer is a different thing from living here year round. I'll have to ask my neighbours three doors down why the four-doors-down neighbours are moving, thought not yet, as I only just had a conversation with the three-doors-down neighbours last year, and I don't want to appear too forward or pushy.

Yep, this is Alice Munro country.*



*Alice Munro is widely considered to be the greatest short story writer ever, and she writes a lot about these kinds of stilted southern Ontario interactions. Some consider her to be part of a genre known as "Southern Ontario Gothic."

[Blitz]

I think Windsor is about the farthest place from another province that you can get (it's a 20 hour drive to the Manitoba border and an 8 hour drive to the Quebec border). So yeah those places might as well be Mars.
Michigan however is basically just an extension of us.

[someone123]

The relationship between the Maritime provinces is interesting. In a way they are even closer than they appear on a map. Most of the population (maybe 3/4) lives roughly in the middle of the region bounded by Fredericton, Charlottetown, and Halifax, and the population has been getting more and more concentrated. In the past it was harder to get around and New Brunswick or PEI were slightly unusual trips from most of NS, but now with twinned highways and the Confederation Bridge people seem to travel more frequently. The central part of the Maritimes reminds me a bit of the southwest part of BC that includes the Lower Mainland (Vancouver out to about Chilliwack) plus Vancouver Island from about Victoria to Nanaimo.

Because of political reasons I don't think we will see a merger between the Maritimes but I hope there will be more and more cross-province institutions and deals in the future. It might go as far as merged utilities and so on, which would give the region better economies of scale.

[Hali87]

Newfoundland and Nova Scotia don't really communicate with each other though this will change with Lower Churchill. Also we tend to like NFLD's fierce independent attitude and try to copy it at times (ABC anyone?).

For a while there it seemed like there was a clear pattern of NS letting Danny Williams do the talking and then swoop in and say "we deserve that too!"

I'm not sure how Nova Scotia will deal with the feds now that he's gone.

As for the other borders, it's weird but we have both a very intimate relationship with NB and PEI but also don't really deal with them very much. There is quite a bit of interprovincial trade and migration but no one really gives it much thought. Since neither has very much political power and neither is radically different from NS there is seldom any real tension, and in practice the only real consequences of the provincial borders are that there are 3 different legislatures, NB gets to be fully bilingual while NS and PEI get to have smaller signs, and the Irving family only gets to own one province.

[MonctonRad]

:previous:

NB gets to be fully bilingual while NS and PEI get to have smaller signs, and the Irving family only gets to own one province.

- I kinda think the relationship between NB & NS would be similar to the relationship between northern Ontario and southern Ontario if northern Ontario were a seperate province. NB is bigger, less densely populated, bilingual and has more trees.... :)

- Regarding the Irving's, never fear Hali87, with the shipbuilding contract, the conquest of NS has begun!! :evil:

[VANRIDERFAN]

Since I live in Regina and have family in Western Manitoba, I will focus on this area.

SE Sask - SW Man -

Pretty close relationship thru agriculture, petroleum and just general proximity. Although most of the focus of young people is to head to Calgary, Edmonton or Vancouver after graduation many have returned since the expansion of the Bakken Oil fields.

In SW Manitoba there is a general distrust of the politics that come out of Winnipeg and many feel a more closer affinity with the government in Regina. Therefore there are many buisness ties between border communities (Virden-Moosimin or Roblin/Russell-Yorkton).
As for North Dakota, Minot is the city of choice for SW Manitobans or SE Saskatchewanians for cross border shopping or cheap flights to Pheonix or Vegas. Once again the Bakken is the main driver of cross border traffic.

[MolsonExport]

I'm assuming you were being sarcastic. Relations between NL and PQ have been extremely frosty for decades because of it.

the PQ? That's the Parti Quebecois (political party, avec Mme Marois et al.). QC is Quebec (province).

Growing up in the Western burbs of Montreal, Ontario was that place where all my friends moved to in 1976-1977, when the PQ first were elected to power (under Rene Levesque). The neighborhood changed....overnight, almost literally. Vermont & NY state were the places with really bad television commercials (Lums, Aubechon hardware: "where you can charge it!", "plattsburgh-north pole-burlington" station identification [NBC: proud as a peacock]), but good ski hills (e.g., Jay Peak, Smugglers, Stowe, Lk placid, etc.). New Brunswick didn't exist. Alberta was the place where all the railroad employees got transferred (my dad worked for CNR...and we did spend a few years in Siberia, err...Edmonton c. 1972-1974). Vancouver/BC was some magical place with snowcapped mountains and elves.

[Rico Rommheim]

I'm assuming you were being sarcastic. Relations between NL and PQ have been extremely frosty for decades because of it.


I wasn't being sarcastic. I've never heard of this issue, and was hoping a fellow member would shed some light on what seems to be a complicated affair. But if all I'm gonna get is attitude, I'll ask smeone else, thanks anyways.

[begratto]

I wasn't being sarcastic. I've never heard of this issue, and was hoping a fellow member would shed some light on what seems to be a complicated affair. But if all I'm gonna get is attitude, I'll ask smeone else, thanks anyways.

Rico isn't kidding, not many people in Quebec know about Churchill Falls, except old people maybe - and even then...

[VANRIDERFAN]

I wasn't being sarcastic. I've never heard of this issue, and was hoping a fellow member would shed some light on what seems to be a complicated affair. But if all I'm gonna get is attitude, I'll ask smeone else, thanks anyways.

Basically Churchill Falls was a hydro-electric project in Labrador. I think it was the Joey Smallwood government who negotiated the sale of the power to Hydro Quebec (due to the fact, Newfoundland and Labrador needed Hydro Quebec infrastructure to get their power to market). The reason there is animosity from Nfld-Lab is that they sold the power at a set price for 99 years;

Quote Regarding sales to Hydro-Quebec, the 1969 contract sets the price at $2.50 per MWh which yields about $75 million annually. Based on today’s (2008) markets, the value of that electricity could be placed at $40 to $60 per MWh, for a total between $1 billion and $2 billion annually.

http://www.mun.ca/harriscentre/policy/memorialpresents/2008c/NQ_article_Vol_101_No_4.pdf

Nfld-Lab have contested the contract but have failed each time. Hydro-Quebec refuses to renegotiate.

[SignalHillHiker]

I wasn't being sarcastic. I've never heard of this issue, and was hoping a fellow member would shed some light on what seems to be a complicated affair. But if all I'm gonna get is attitude, I'll ask smeone else, thanks anyways.

From Newfoundland's perspective, Churchill Falls was somewhere between a bad deal or direct blackmail. Hydro Quebec was a minor partner in the development of the hydroelectric project but threatened to go public with information that the project would go bankrupt - unless its unreasonable demands were met. They were.

Since that time, Hydro Quebec has been receiving heavily discounted electricity (in effect, subsidized by Newfoundland), which it in turn sells to American markets for an exceptionally high profit. At every available opportunity, Hydro Quebec works to prevent Nalcor from developing additional hydroelectric resources or selling electricity using its transmission lines. Former premier Danny Williams has been quoted many times saying this is not a myth, and he's encountered it first hand and been amazed at the lengths to which Hydro Quebec will go to disadvantage Newfoundland.

So that's just the bare bones of it.

You have to layer this into the general anger/resentment regarding many of the consequences of Newfoundland's confederation with Canada, of which Churchill Falls is just one part.

[harls]

As for North Dakota, Minot is the city of choice for SW Manitobans or SE Saskatchewanians for cross border shopping or cheap flights to Pheonix or Vegas. Once again the Bakken is the main driver of cross border traffic.

:D So true, especially back in the 80's when the dollar was near par like it is now. It sort of dropped off a bit in the 90's and the last decade. Haven't been back there for a while now, so I don't know if Minot is still the shopping mecca it used to be.

Back then, the US had all these exotic products you couldn't get in Canada.. nowadays you can get almost all the same stuff here.

[jeddy1989]

:previous:
The Churchill Falls deal has been one of the biggest sore spots in the minds of NLers .. ask any NLer about it (at any age above 15) and they will be able to tell you about it


Legal challenge and controversy

The division of profits from the sale of electricity generated at the plant has proven to be a very sensitive political issue in Newfoundland and Labrador, with many considering the share accorded to Hydro-Québec "an immense and unconscionable windfall."[12]
The Government of Newfoundland and Labrador has twice challenged the contract in court, with both challenges failing.[13] Additionally, in 1984 the Supreme Court of Canada ruled that a proposal by Newfoundland to divert water away from the falls was illegal.[11]
According to former Premier Brian Tobin, as Labrador only borders Québec, when an agreement was being negotiated to sell the power generated at Churchill Falls, the power either had to be sold to an entity within Québec or it had to pass through Québec. The government of Québec refused to allow power to be transferred through Québec and would only accept a contract in which the power was sold to Québec.[14] Because of this monopsony situation, Hydro-Québec received very favourable terms on the power sale contract. The contract was negotiated to run for a 65-year timespan, running until the year 2041, and according to former Newfoundland Premier Danny Williams, Hydro-Québec reaps profits from the Upper Churchill contract of approximately $1.7 billion per year, while Newfoundland and Labrador receives $63 million a year.[15]
According to long-time Hydro-Québec critic Claude Garcia, former president of Standard Life (Canada) and author of a recent assessment of the utility commissioned by the Montreal Economic Institute, if Hydro-Quebec had to pay market prices for the low-cost power it got from the Churchill Falls project in Labrador, the 2007 profit would be an estimated 75 per cent lower. Newfoundland and Labrador will get back all the rights to the project in 2041 when the contract expires.[16]



-Churchill Falls power plant is the second largest hydroelectric plant in North America, with an installed capacity of 5,428 MW (7,279,000 hp).
Churchill Falls was, at the time of its construction, the largest underground power station in the world. (The Robert-Bourassa power station in Quebec currently holds the record, both for installed capacity and volume of the main underground hall).

-The powerhouse is 972 ft (296 m) long, up to 81 ft (25 m) wide and 154 ft (47 m) high from the bottom to the top. The height would be equivalent to a 15-storey building or almost as long as three Canadian football fields 990 ft (300 m) and is hollowed from solid granite.

-To strengthen walls and ceiling, more than 11,000 rock bolts (steel rods 15 to 25 ft (5 to 8 m)long) were used in the three major chambers.

-To move the 2,300,000 cu yd (1,800,000 m3) of rock that was excavated from the underground caverns, it required 5,000,000 lb (2,300,000 kg). This material was used in roads, building the town site, and as dike material.

-The turbine wheels are cast of stainless steel and weigh 80 short tons (73 t) which is a world record for the largest stainless steel casting ever made.

-During construction, 730,000 short tons (660,000 t) of material, equipment and fuel were moved to the site.

-The natural catchment area for the Churchill River covers over 23,300 sq mi (60,000 km2).

-By diverting the water from the Ossokmanuan Reservoir the total catchment area became 27,700 sq mi (72,000 km2).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churchill_Falls_Generating_Station

This is probably the single largest reason for tensions between the provinces and has spilled into the society .. I'm heard many people act disgusted at Quebec and anything Quebec.. then when you ask why they will say it's because Quebec is greedy, evil, and has completely screwed us over.

It's shocking that other people in other provinces are not aware of this situation .. sad

in fact when talking about joey or this situation many people say "Joey sold us down the river (to Quebec)" [Pun intended hahaha]

[VANRIDERFAN]

:D So true, especially back in the 80's when the dollar was near par like it is now. It sort of dropped off a bit in the 90's and the last decade. Haven't been back there for a while now, so I don't know if Minot is still the shopping mecca it used to be.

Back then, the US had all these exotic products you couldn't get in Canada.. nowadays you can get almost all the same stuff here.


I was there just this past summer. Crazy busy with plates from all over the US and quite a few Sask and Manitoba ones as well. But it pales in comparison to Williston ND (about an hour's drive west). Traffic jams of pick-ups and semi's couple with acres of temporary accomodations for all the workers. A modern day Klondike in my mind.

[SignalHillHiker]

in fact when talking about joey or this situation many people say "Joey sold us down the river (to Quebec)" [Pun intended hahaha]

It's even worse than that.

Hydro Quebec went along with our developer, CFLCo., pretending everything was fine. It even had representatives on CFLCo's board so it had intimate knowledge of CFLCo's finances.

As soon as construction had progressed far enough that CFLCo. would go bankrupt if Hydro Quebec pulled out, it immediately threatened to do so.

They even changed the original agreement, which was supposed to end in 2016. That's when we were supposed to renegotiate. Now it's 2041.

Also, get this: the price Quebec will pay for hydroelectricity from Churchill Falls will be LESS from 2016-2041 than it is NOW.

It's sickening. No other province in this country would be unable to get this agreement tossed out in court. Conflicts of interest, coercive conditions... it's a textbook example.

[drew]

I was there just this past summer. Crazy busy with plates from all over the US and quite a few Sask and Manitoba ones as well. But it pales in comparison to Williston ND (about an hour's drive west). Traffic jams of pick-ups and semi's couple with acres of temporary accomodations for all the workers. A modern day Klondike in my mind.

Made the mistake of driving through (typically) sleepy Williston at the end of September this year.

It is ridiculous there. Never seen anything like it.

We passed a three MILE line of bumper to bumper semi-traffic stuck at a major highway intersection that was under construction.

Minot seems to be booming right along as well.

[MonctonRad]

in fact when talking about joey or this situation many people say "Joey sold us down the river (to Quebec)" [Pun intended hahaha]


It was in good part because of the Churchill Falls fiasco that NB'ers massively defeated the Shawn Graham government in the last election. This was because he was planning on selling NB Power to Hydro Quebec (what an idiot!!!)

I have never seen a popular revolt like this in my life. It was like the Arab Spring. It had a life of it's own. Once people found out what Shawn Graham was up to, he was doomed!

No one wanted anything like Churchill Falls to happen to NB. Basically Hydo Quebec was only interested in NB's transmission lines and a few other valuable assets. Anything Hydro Quebec didn't want, it would have stuck the NB provincial government with. It was a horrible deal. :hell:

It was presumed that the only reason why Hydro Quebec wanted NB Power was so that it could block Newfoundland from selling it's hydroelectricity on the open market once the undersea cable is built to NS. If Hydro Quebec owned the transmission lines in NB then it could block overland transmission of Newfoundland's power. Newfoundland would have no choice but to use transmission lines owned by Hydro Quebec. They would have been boxed in.

Hydro Quebec is truly an evil empire!!

[someone123]

Unfortunately, when the interests of the Atlantic provinces are pitted against Quebec or Ontario they pretty much always lose. I think a lot of people fail to appreciate how much these sorts of decisions affect economic fortunes in different parts of Canada. It's not true that we just have a free market system where the most successful areas are the ones that have natural advantages.

I think it's pretty sketchy to begin with that Quebec and to a lesser extent Newfoundland have full control of northern areas while a province like New Brunswick gets nothing simply because of how administrative regions were drawn up back before any of those resources mattered (in many cases after Confederation). And that's without even considering the natives in these areas that have the best claim of anybody to the territory, if that's how it's going to be managed.

[ErickMontreal]

.Hydro Quebec is truly an evil empire!!

At then end of the day, Newfoundland signed the deal, Quebec financed the project, provided the technology and took the risk.

In Quebec, people was wondering why HQ is bothering to buy the outdated assets of NB Power and to be honest I was one of them.

Unfortunately for some, it was like paying $20 000 for a 1995 Chevrolet Cavalier.

[SignalHillHiker]

At then end of the day, Newfoundland signed the deal, Quebec financed the project, provided the technology and took the risk.

In Quebec, people was wondering why HQ is bothering to buy the outdated assets of NB Power and to be honest I was one of them.

Unfortunately for some, it was like paying $20 000 for a 1995 Chevrolet Cavalier.

Hydro Quebec didn't finance the project, nor did it provide the technology, nor did it assume a majority of the risk.

It financed a relatively small portion of the project, provided none of the technology, and assumed 34% of the risk.

Hydro Quebec pretended to be a willing minority investor (34% stake) until CFLCo. had spent enough that, should Hydro Quebec pull out, CFLCo. would go bankrupt.

It wasn't like paying $20,000 for a 1995 Chevrolet Cavalier - it was like having $20,000 in the bank, agreeing with a friend to buy a $23,000 car, and once your $20,000 was spent with no chance of getting it back, your friend said: hell no! I'm not giving you your $3,000 unless I'm the only one who can drive it.

[SignalHillHiker]

It was presumed that the only reason why Hydro Quebec wanted NB Power was so that it could block Newfoundland from selling it's hydroelectricity on the open market once the undersea cable is built to NS. If Hydro Quebec owned the transmission lines in NB then it could block overland transmission of Newfoundland's power. Newfoundland would have no choice but to use transmission lines owned by Hydro Quebec. They would have been boxed in.

Hydro Quebec is truly an evil empire!!

That's what we thought as well.

We almost succeeded in getting the Americans to stop buying Quebec power a few years ago (there are NAFTA rules that would require Quebec to open its transmission lines for N.L. to use, if they would just be enforced). That would have been a spectacular comeback - and is probably still the fastest route to justice. But, as usual, the almighty dollar won out.

[Hali87]

:previous:



- I kinda think the relationship between NB & NS would be similar to the relationship between northern Ontario and southern Ontario if northern Ontario were a seperate province. NB is bigger, less densely populated, bilingual and has more trees.... :)


Great analogy. I've always thought of Cape Breton as being sort of like our Northern Ontario, but NB would make sense too (for different reasons)

- Regarding the Irving's, never fear Hali87, with the shipbuilding contract, the conquest of NS has begun!! :evil:

Oh ya. They definitely have quite a large presence in NS already (it's weird living out west where there are no Irving gas stations, for example). I meant more along the lines that Irving owns something like 80% of NB's surface area.

[Hali87]

That's what we thought as well.
(there are NAFTA rules that would require Quebec to open its transmission lines for N.L. to use, if they would just be enforced)

Has this been used in court? NAFTA rules are usually a really big deal.

[kwoldtimer]

Has this been used in court? NAFTA rules are usually a really big deal.

I kind of wondered about that. If there are relevant NAFTA provisions, then why hasn't N&L Hydro or the Province invoked them?

[eternallyme]

Ontario only really borders three jurisdictions of consequence: Quebec, New York and Michigan.

It has over-lake borders of Pennsylvania and Ohio but they rarely come into communication, and borders Minnesota and Manitoba in the northwest but the political class rarely goes anywhere near that area.

[SignalHillHiker]

I kind of wondered about that. If there are relevant NAFTA provisions, then why hasn't N&L Hydro or the Province invoked them?

I forget where it ended up, it's been several years - but we either lost, or they refused to hear the case. It was all over the news for a while, that this was a new avenue to explore, but nothing came of it.

Same as, more recently, they were talking about how they could get courts to reject the extension of the contract so that it would still expire in 2016 instead of 2041, before they had clear proof the signing of this extension was coerced.

Never heard anything about that since either.

[north 42]

Ontario only really borders three jurisdictions of consequence: Quebec, New York and Michigan.

It has over-lake borders of Pennsylvania and Ohio but they rarely come into communication, and borders Minnesota and Manitoba in the northwest but the political class rarely goes anywhere near that area.

Actually There is a lot of interaction between Pelee Island and Ohio, probably more than half of all the waterfront cottages on the island are owned by Ohioans, and there are ferries that connect the two of them as we'll as Leamington and Kingsville.

[lio45]

I'd feel bad about it if that power didn't come from what used to, and still should, be our territory, and FYI we haven't even recognized the current borders yet... so, one could say it's only sweet justice that the revenue from that ressource goes to our provincial coffers -- that's where it would be ending up today (without anyone complaining about it) if those fine folks in London had refrained from playing with the borders­.

[lio45]

Little bit of trivia... what do NY and MI have in common that the other states don't?

Hint: it's related to the fact they're the two states bordering the heart of Ontario...

[MonctonRad]

I'd feel bad about it if that power didn't come from what used to, and still should, be our territory, and FYI we haven't even recognized the current borders yet... so, one could say it's only sweet justice that the revenue from that ressource goes to our provincial coffers -- that's where it would be ending up today (without anyone complaining about it) if those fine folks in London had refrained from playing with the borders .

:previous:

Them's fightin' words! Signal, where are you? :)

[Simpseatles]

Ontario only really borders three jurisdictions of consequence: Quebec, New York and Michigan.

It has over-lake borders of Pennsylvania and Ohio but they rarely come into communication, and borders Minnesota and Manitoba in the northwest but the political class rarely goes anywhere near that area.

Well there's been talk for many years in Southwestern Ontario about starting ferry service across the lake to Cleveland, so we do come into communication with Ohio over that matter.

And here in London we have a bit of a relationship with Erie, Pennsylvania. We get the PBS station from there, and apparently one of our rock radio stations is quite popular in their city.

[SignalHillHiker]

I'd feel bad about it if that power didn't come from what used to, and still should, be our territory, and FYI we haven't even recognized the current borders yet... so, one could say it's only sweet justice that the revenue from that ressource goes to our provincial coffers -- that's where it would be ending up today (without anyone complaining about it) if those fine folks in London had refrained from playing with the borders­.

Finally.

I completely disagree, of course (we won that court case for good reasons - including the fact that Newfoundland-based fishermen had been the only Europeans to visit/settle in Labrador for centuries) but I appreciate this sentiment in Quebec.

At least it implies some thought and isn't just a dismissive, "Who cares?"

[someone123]

Here's a hastily-made guide to Quebec's land claims superimposed on a population density map.

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/9651/image2993d.png

[donnelly]

I live in Montreal. There is a fairly strong attachment to the surrounding US states.

I have a mailbox in Champlain NY, as do many other folks, and in 45 minutes from downtown Mtl I can get to the box and pickup the internet swag. Go 15 minutes further to Plattsburgh, NY and there is a good sized mall, with Target et. al. and you can catch a flick in their much comfier reclining seats at a cheaper price. The old Airforce base is now the Plattsburgh Airport and markets itself as a Metro Montreal airport. The flights to Florida for 300 return all in. It is 3 bucks a day parking and hour drive to downtown Montreal.

If you want to take the ferry across Lake Champlain to Burlington, VT amidst the Mountains it is easy enough. There is also a bridge that winds through some beauty islands that gets you there. Burlington is a great place to spend the day with plenty of history, walkability and colonial New England charm. A lot of Montreal folks ski come the winter in VT - Stowe and Smugglers Notch. The hills are a fair bit higher here than Tremblant and about equidistant.

In the West End of the city, NDG, I notice a fair amount of people wearing Red Sox gear and also Yankees. I used to live in the East End for years by metro Fabre and didn't see this. There is a bit of pull to Boston (5.5 hours away) and NYC (6.5 hours) in this regard, especially for anglo Montrealers vs. Toronto. In the past and up to this day the West End Gang maintains connections to the Boston Irish Mob. Similarly, the Italian mob here is connected to NYC.

I have an HD TV antenna and get all the basic US channels within reception. And even a movie channel called THIS! TV. Not bad for a 30 dollar investment.

[Denscity]

BC and Alberta dont really get along. We love to hate each other. BC is the most left wing and Alberta is the most right wing province in canada. Plus all of the sporting rivalries of course. And there is that small pipeline issue currently in the news. We go there only for money and they come here for recreation.
The Yukon is little thought of and no issues.
Even less thought of is our next door neighbour the North West Territories. no issues.
Alaska and BC are similar with salmon fishing, big mountains/glaciers and huge tree forests. Little communication no issues.
Washington State and BC get along great with many similarities: West coast/Pacific Ocean, coffee, sushi, weed, hippies, yoga, organics, forestry, Columbia River, same time zone, etc. etc. etc.
BC and Idaho have no communication or issues.
BC and Montana have no issues and share the Rocky Mountains with Alberta.

[Acajack]

Here's a hastily-made guide to Quebec's land claims superimposed on a population density map.

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/9651/image2993d.png

I understand the frustration of people in NL however this is not significantly different from most of the other provinces from Ontario westwards.

[Hali87]

I forget where it ended up, it's been several years - but we either lost, or they refused to hear the case. It was all over the news for a while, that this was a new avenue to explore, but nothing came of it.

Same as, more recently, they were talking about how they could get courts to reject the extension of the contract so that it would still expire in 2016 instead of 2041, before they had clear proof the signing of this extension was coerced.

Never heard anything about that since either.

If it's a NAFTA violation then it could be that Canada as a whole (not just Quebec or Newfoundland) would take major penalties if this went to court. I'm not sure how that works though.

[Hali87]

If we're talking ferries, NS is connected to Newfoundland and PEI by ferry. There have also historically been ferry connections to New Brunswick and Maine, although I'm not sure if either of them are currently operating. There are also plans for a Halifax-Boston ferry to start runs in the next couple years.

[Acajack]

I kind of wondered about that. If there are relevant NAFTA provisions, then why hasn't N&L Hydro or the Province invoked them?

I believe that NAFTA rules can only be invoked for issues between countries, not for disputes within countries.

[isaidso]

I understand the frustration of people in NL however this is not significantly different from most of the other provinces from Ontario westwards.

You're vastly under-estimating how big an issue this is for NL. I don't think there's anything in Canada that compares. They feel like a quarter of their exports have been held hostage by Quebec. This goes far beyond being an inter-provincial trade irritance.

[jeddy1989]

You're vastly under-estimating how big an issue this is for NL. I don't think there's anything in Canada that compares. They feel like a quarter of their exports have been held hostage by Quebec. This goes far beyond being an inter-provincial trade irritance.

Indeed! it's massive!

Also the NAFTA claim I'm pretty sure has to be between countries (unfortunatly our federation does not act as a country so we have these problems) and of course the federal government cannot dispute against the sacred Quebec .. God forbid some votes are lost ..

so NAFTA would be like "get you internal SH&* in order" ... and NL is left in limbo

there was also in recent years an avenue against the contract regarding "good faith" in the Quebec legal system .. that the contract was NOT done in good faith .. previous legal action was taken in the NL system which of course is useless in quebec .. what needs to happen is that it needs to be federal action, that is why there is a federal government to make the FEDERATION run smoothly lol ... oh well I guess it's not working .. again ..

[MonctonRad]

If we're talking ferries, NS is connected to Newfoundland and PEI by ferry. There have also historically been ferry connections to New Brunswick and Maine, although I'm not sure if either of them are currently operating. There are also plans for a Halifax-Boston ferry to start runs in the next couple years.

The Digby-Saint John ferry service is most definitely still operating.

Thanks to Dexter though, the service from Yarmouth to Portland and Bar Harbor is gone.... :(

[eemy]

I suppose it could be a NAFTA issue if it is shown that Quebec is radically inflating prices and preventing access to cheaper electricity from NL, which is what it is effectively doing. I think someone in the US would have to bring the suit though.

[eemy]

BC and Alberta dont really get along. We love to hate each other. BC is the most left wing and Alberta is the most right wing province in canada. Plus all of the sporting rivalries of course. And there is that small pipeline issue currently in the news. We go there only for money and they come here for recreation.
The Yukon is little thought of and no issues.
Even less thought of is our next door neighbour the North West Territories. no issues.
Alaska and BC are similar with salmon fishing, big mountains/glaciers and huge tree forests. Little communication no issues.
Washington State and BC get along great with many similarities: West coast/Pacific Ocean, coffee, sushi, weed, hippies, yoga, organics, forestry, Columbia River, same time zone, etc. etc. etc.
BC and Idaho have no communication or issues.
BC and Montana have no issues and share the Rocky Mountains with Alberta.

I suppose Idaho is so low on BCers' radars that you forgot to mention it?

Edit: Doh! It's so low on my radar that I somehow failed to see it.

[Acajack]

You're vastly under-estimating how big an issue this is for NL. I don't think there's anything in Canada that compares. They feel like a quarter of their exports have been held hostage by Quebec. This goes far beyond being an inter-provincial trade irritance.

You are mixing things up. I was talking about having lots of territory as part of the province even if few people live there. You are talking about the Churchill Falls hydroelectric contract.

In the latter case, I don't underestimate the seriousness of the issue for NL at all. I know all about it.

As for Quebec laying claim to huge areas well north of its inhabited territory, as I said this is not really that different from most Canadian provinces - except for the three Maritimes. NL included BTW.

[SignalHillHiker]

:previous:

It's true that all provinces outside the Maritimes lay claim to relatively unpopulated northern areas - often at the expense of First Nations for whom our provincial borders are irrelevant.

That said, there is one aspect of Newfoundland's claim to Labrador that makes it unique: we actually used it. For 500 years, Labrador is where tens of thousands of Newfoundlanders and Europeans went every summer to fish and every winter to hunt seals. Newfoundlanders knew the coast of Labrador like the backs of their hands. And they travelled inland on the rivers even farther than Lake Melville, which is why that portion of the interior is included within Labrador's borders.

It's even in the lyrics of an anti-Confederation song from the 1940s:

A Newfie boy was leaving
His home for Labrador
To fish the same old fishing grounds
His father fished before

And as he was leaving his mother
Whilst standing on the quay
He threw his arms around her neck
And this to her did say

Don't vote Confederation
That's my prayer to you
We own the house we live in
Likewise, our schooner too

But if you heed Joe Smallwood
And that mainland French patois
We'll be always paying taxes to
That tribe up in Ottawa

[Acajack]

:previous:

It's true that all provinces outside the Maritimes lay claim to relatively unpopulated northern areas - often at the expense of First Nations for whom our provincial borders are irrelevant.

That said, there is one aspect of Newfoundland's claim to Labrador that makes it unique: we actually used it. For 500 years, Labrador is where tens of thousands of Newfoundlanders and Europeans went every summer to fish and every winter to hunt seals. Newfoundlanders knew the coast of Labrador like the backs of their hands. And they travelled inland on the rivers even farther than Lake Melville, which is why that portion of the interior is included within Labrador's borders.

It's even in the lyrics of an anti-Confederation song from the 1940s:

A Newfie boy was leaving
His home for Labrador
To fish the same old fishing grounds
His father fished before

And as he was leaving his mother
Whilst standing on the quay
He threw his arms around her neck
And this to her did say

Don't vote Confederation
That's my prayer to you
We own the house we live in
Likewise, our schooner too

But if you heed Joe Smallwood
And that mainland French patois
We'll be always paying taxes to
That tribe up in Ottawa

Note that I do not think Quebec has ever officially claimed all of Labrador, but just this portion:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/10/Labrador_boundary_dispute.png

[Nashe]

Here's a NB perspective... I'll probably include a few non-adjacent areas just because:

Nova Scotia: Probably our closest "friend". Parts of NB and NS have some pretty good-natured sibling rivalry (Moncton/Hali) but by-in-large moving around the cultures of either province is fairly fluid, save maybe the Acadian Peninsula (NB) vs Cape Breton (NS), which are probably the most "different" bits of either. NB population is a bit more spread out than NS (the latter having about 1/3 of it's pop in one city) and thus has a bit more of a rural vibe.

PEI: I go to PEI quite a bit, since I'm spitting distance from the bridge. It's a pretty, touristy place with roads that are better than ours. Not terribly culturally different than NB, but the pace of life does seem a bit more laid back (if that's possible) and the communities a bit more "tight". If you move there, it can take generations before you are not considered "from away".

NL: Not a lot of direct contact, but I sense that there is some potential kindredness there in some ways. Both provinces are fairly sparsely populated and (until recently) were fairly heavily subsidized by the Feds via transfer payments. I sense that NB folks are genuinely happy for NL now that resources have come online to boost it's economy. We just wish ours were too. :) (PS: Hey, wanna route your power through here? We'd love to work with you. Quebec scares us. :)

Quebec: There's a bit of a mix here... You'd think with the large French-speaking component in NB that there would be stronger ties to La Belle Province, and in some areas that is the case. The anglophone bits of NB are a bit more distrustful of Quebec. Interestingly, some of the Acadian areas, which you think would be very fraternal with Quebec, aren't as much as you'd think... "Yeah, but we're not like them..." can be heard sometimes. I'm going to go out on a limb here but a few of my Acadian friends seem to want to distance themselves a bit from Quebec, as if the latter were making it difficult for them, sometimes. It's kinda fuzzy, though.

Maine: Shopping! Really, Maine is the US equivalent of NB. Aside from a slight change in accent the farther south you go, it's really hard to tell where Maine begins, in some ways. I was in Maine recently and since dollar-parity... wow. 2/3 of the cars in the lots in Freeport were NB/NS plates. Aside from that... not a lot of real interaction, I don't think, aside from border towns.

Ontario: Stuck-ups. :D Just kidding, but only partially. :) Generally many people in NB have contacts or family in Ontario. I have born-and-raised maritime friends (some NB, some other) that have a bit of a stick on their shoulder about Ontarioans... the stereotype of the condescending Torontonian is alive and well here.

Manitoba-Saskatchewan: Where the what, now? Flat... cold? Why would I go there? :D

Alberta: TONS of NB folks head there to work, given our poor economy and their booming one. Then, when they get old enough to collect a pension, they head back home... It's kind of a bad cycle. This is part of the reason why the NB demographic is aging so quickly.

BC: Distant fairy-land full of expensive homes and mountains and happiness. :D

[jeddy1989]

BC: Distant fairy-land full of expensive homes and mountains and happiness. :D

BAHAHAHAHHA such a great way to state the veiw of BC hahhaha
There's a general wind of that BC does stuff right but it's a far off land lol

(to put it in perspective, it's the same distance between St. John's and Vancouver as there is between St. John's and the top of the Amazon jungle in southern Venezuela ... or between St. John's and central Algeria hahaha) but seems like a nice place

[Waterlooson]

As a young'un, nary a thought ever crossed my mind about Quebec, Manitoba or Michigan. We knew about New York (state) because of the TV out of Buffalo--any person in the Golden Horseshoe above 30 will recognize the name Irv Weinstein of "Eye Witness News" fame.

Having moved to a tourist town in the western half of southern Ontario, I'm now surrounded by Michigan licence plates during the summer and fall. One neighbour has mentioned going on a shopping trip to a German-themed town in Michigan. And a couple from Michigan even bought a B&B four doors down from us. They're very fat. As is the custom in southern Ontario, I've never actually made an effort to go and talk to them, as they live too far from my house and they've only been here for three years or so. It would be weird to break the barrier too soon. But now the B&B is up for sale. I suspect that being entranced with the place as a visitor during the summer is a different thing from living here year round. I'll have to ask my neighbours three doors down why the four-doors-down neighbours are moving, thought not yet, as I only just had a conversation with the three-doors-down neighbours last year, and I don't want to appear too forward or pushy.

Yep, this is Alice Munro country.*



*Alice Munro is widely considered to be the greatest short story writer ever, and she writes a lot about these kinds of stilted southern Ontario interactions. Some consider her to be part of a genre known as "Southern Ontario Gothic."

Let me guess... you live in Stratford.

[KnoxfordGuy]

Growing up in western New Brunswick, Maine was just another section of New Brunswick to me. We have family and friends over there and shop and eat and so on. Going over to Maine didnt even feel like the states because western nb and north eastern maine were so alike. I would totally love it if Maine became a province! :D

[Waterlooson]

I'd feel bad about it if that power didn't come from what used to, and still should, be our territory, and FYI we haven't even recognized the current borders yet... so, one could say it's only sweet justice that the revenue from that ressource goes to our provincial coffers -- that's where it would be ending up today (without anyone complaining about it) if those fine folks in London had refrained from playing with the borders­.

I've read about how the border (between Quebec and Labrador) was drawn by the Privy Council (the British Empire's highest judicial authority). The issue was adjudicated in 1927, and ruled in Newfoundland's favour, on the grounds that the "coast of Labrador" referred to in Newfoundland's mandate of 1763 included the interior as far as the "height of land", or watershed, or rivers flowing east. Canada accepted the decision, and confirmed it in accepting Nfld into Confederation in 1949. Quebec however, has maintained the Nfld. has rights only to the coastal strip.

Nfld has taken Quebec Hydro to court over the Churchill Falls hydro issue and lost.... Quebec takes the position that everyone has to respect court decisions so too bad for Nfld.... Yet it refuses to respect the decision of the Privy Council... It would appear that Quebec only respects court decisions that it has won regarding Nfld... where it has lost.. oh well, that shouldn't count. Seems a little hypocritical to me.

[RyeJay]

Growing up in western New Brunswick, Maine was just another section of New Brunswick to me. We have family and friends over there and shop and eat and so on. Going over to Maine didnt even feel like the states because western nb and north eastern maine were so alike. I would totally love it if Maine became a province! :D

Since Maine borders Canada, it would be a natural extension (especially considering parts of Maine's territory used to be part of Acadia, and then British North America) -- but in all honesty, I would love for any of America's reliably blue states to join Canada.

The red states, however, I would be against. It's hard work maintaining Canada's freedoms from religious oppression, from gun violence, from fear of bankruptcy due to no healthcare insurance, from ignorance due to science classes being removed from schools...

I don't want red states joining to undermine scientific and mathematical facts in Canada with their 'truth' and gut feelings.

We have enough problems with the Conservatives...

[Bigtime]

I'll take a shot at this for Alberta:

-Saskatchewan: All of them come here to work and talk about the beautiful prairie lakes they have. Lots of people in Llyodminster live on the Alberta side but somehow make sure they get their car insurance on the SK side (or so I've heard). I think we like each other well enough, except when all those dirty Riders fans plug up our stadiums in Calgary and Edmonton. ;)

-BC: Love/hate for sure. A good example of this is the Columbia Valley area of BC. A fading forestry/pulp industry replaced by it becoming the de-facto backyard of Calgarians. They don't seem to like us much but are more than happy to take the ridiculous amounts of money we bring to the area (giant vacation homes, ridiculously priced art galleries, boats, etc.). Lots of recent animosity because of the pipeline issues, and much more intense sports rivalries (especially Flames v. Canucks since 2004).

-NWT: No idea, they're up there and I think we get along with them just fine.

-Montana: I think they like us, a bunch of southern Albertans will drive down there to fly cheaper out of the US. We do have the worlds first International Peace Park between Waterton and Glacier National Park in Montana.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Since Maine borders Canada, it would be a natural extension (especially considering parts of Maine's territory used to be part of Acadia, and then British North America) -- but in all honesty, I would love for any of America's reliably blue states to join Canada.

The red states, however, I would be against. It's hard work maintaining Canada's freedoms from religious oppression, from gun violence, from fear of bankruptcy due to no healthcare insurance, from ignorance due to science classes being removed from schools...

I don't want red states joining to undermine scientific and mathematical facts in Canada with their 'truth' and gut feelings.

We have enough problems with the Conservatives...

Well I would have no problem with red states like North Dakota, Montana or Idaho joining Canada.

Can't wait for the Justin led Liberals to get back into power............................................ NOT!

[VANRIDERFAN]

I'll take a shot at this for Alberta:

-Saskatchewan: All of them come here to work and talk about the beautiful prairie lakes they have. Lots of people in Llyodminster live on the Alberta side but somehow make sure they get their car insurance on the SK side (or so I've heard). I think we like each other well enough, except when all those dirty Riders fans plug up our stadiums in Calgary and Edmonton. ;)

-BC: Love/hate for sure. A good example of this is the Columbia Valley area of BC. A fading forestry/pulp industry replaced by it becoming the de-facto backyard of Calgarians. They don't seem to like us much but are more than happy to take the ridiculous amounts of money we bring to the area (giant vacation homes, ridiculously priced art galleries, boats, etc.). Lots of recent animosity because of the pipeline issues, and much more intense sports rivalries (especially Flames v. Canucks since 2004).

-NWT: No idea, they're up there and I think we get along with them just fine.

-Montana: I think they like us, a bunch of southern Albertans will drive down there to fly cheaper out of the US. We do have the worlds first International Peace Park between Waterton and Glacier National Park in Montana.


Well there is the International Peace Garden between Manitoba and North Dakota which was established in 1932

http://www.peacegarden.com/history.htm

Also the Governor of Montana has established a liaison with Sask Premier Wall on the idea of importing Canada's health care system into Montana.

[RyeJay]

Alberta: TONS of NB folks head there to work, given our poor economy and their booming one. Then, when they get old enough to collect a pension, they head back home... It's kind of a bad cycle. This is part of the reason why the NB demographic is aging so quickly.

Although younger working Maritimers from all three provinces go to Alberta for work, in varying degrees per province, I would also like to note just how many New Brunswickers I meet in Halifax.

Virtually half the people I meet in the Scotian capital are from NB, as they've moved due to their attendance at one of the universities, or because they just landed a job in Halifax, or because it's cheaper to live in Halifax for in New Brunswick there aren't many truly urban living options and you're forced to purchase and maintain a car, and drive absurd distances.

Aside from another big reason of Halifax being more developed and exciting -- its economy is improving rather impressively (unlike the rest of Nova Scotia and virtually all of New Brunswick). With the changes in demographics (people remaining single for much longer, prolonging the creation of a family, having fewer kids, being single parents, and making less in terms of career/job salaries-vs-the cost of living, etc.), I believe Halifax's appeal will grow dramatically compared to the municipalities in New Brunswick.

[Bigtime]

International Peace Park > International Peace Garden :D

[SignalHillHiker]

A little more detail on Newfoundland's relationship with the three Maritime provinces.

1. Prince Edward Island: As far as I am aware, the relationship between our two provinces is friendly, but minimal. Prince Edward Island maintains no transportation links with Newfoundland but is instead connected (via bridge and ferry) to its Maritime neighbours. The small population of Prince Edward Island makes it largely irrelevant for Newfoundland exports and - although my own family is an exception to this - it doesn't seem to be a common place for Newfoundlanders who leave the island to move. The general understanding of Prince Edward Island in Newfoundland is probably similar to what it would be in central Canada - Anne of Green Gables, etc. - just slightly more realistic and without any hint of the exotic.

2. New Brunswick: It seems to me that New Brunswick's relationship with Labrador is stronger than its relationship to Newfoundland. There are even flights from northern New Brunswick to Labrador's airports. The province doesn't come up on Newfoundland's radar very often - which is a pity because we share a strong desire to slow down or even reverse any gains for Halifax that come at our expense. Newfoundland - the people and the government - greatly appreciated New Brunswick's unwillingness to sell MB Hydro to Hydro Quebec. There's no animosity between New Brunswick and Newfoundland that I've ever encountered. I found people there knew very little about Newfoundland, but the same is true in reverse. And they were always kind.

3. Nova Scotia. Our relationship with Nova Scotia is probably the strongest of the Maritime provinces. Most Newfoundland families have relatives in Nova Scotia and many young Newfoundland families have moved there on their search for opportunities further west. It is for Newfoundlanders what Greece is for North Africans - the stepping stone into Canada. Marine Atlantic maintains some of the world's largest passenger ferries linking Newfoundland and Nova Scotia and the route is vital to Newfoundland's economy - although most of our imports arrive via container ships from Halifax or Montreal. For historical reasons (country of origin, etc.), Newfoundland and Cape Breton are especially close and share the same general dialect of English. Everything south of Halifax is basically a foreign country as far as Newfoundland is concerned. Most people here wouldn't even be able to name a single town below that point, but they could probably list every one, in order, from North Sydney to Truro. Generally, Newfoundlanders view Nova Scotia, and especially Halifax, that way Canadians outside Ontario view that province and its capital - except that Halifax is much smaller and the difference between it and other regional cities is much less than the difference between Toronto and ROC. You'll often hear expressions like, "B'y, if Halifax was half the city they thinks it is, I'd move there tomorrow." It also tends to be the place where Newfoundlanders are most likely to encounter real prejudice. For example, it's the only place where people have told me stupid Newfie jokes to "put me in my place", rather than out of some misguided belief I'd think it's funny, as is the case elsewhere in Canada (and I mean to the point of telling one in a business meeting as a direct response to my proving the teller wrong). It's probably just familiarity breeding contempt. But, all that said, I think most people get along fairly well. I have one cousin who moved to Halifax after high school and now describes it as home, loves it.

[Nashe]

Although younger working Maritimers from all three provinces go to Alberta for work, in varying degrees per province, I would also like to note just how many New Brunswickers I meet in Halifax.Ah, so that's where the other half went.... ;)
...or because it's cheaper to live in Halifax for in New Brunswick there aren't many truly urban living options and you're forced to purchase and maintain a car, and drive absurd distances.Oh, it's not quite THAT bad. From home to desk is about 20 minutes for me, even if I cover 30km. Traffic isn't horrible (yet) but it's getting worse. Boomtown and all that, eh?
Aside from another big reason of Halifax being more developed and exciting -- its economy is improving rather impressively (unlike the rest of Nova Scotia and virtually all of New Brunswick)."virtually" ;) By and large it's quite true that aside from a few fairly fast-growing areas, most of NB is/has headed elsewhere to look for work, which is sad. The provincial finances are in rough shape, it's true.
With the changes in demographics (people remaining single for much longer, prolonging the creation of a family, having fewer kids, being single parents, and making less in terms of career/job salaries-vs-the cost of living, etc.), I believe Halifax's appeal will grow dramatically compared to the municipalities in New Brunswick.I just wish we had a way to better tax them when they retire back home to NB... :D

[RyeJay]

Oh, it's not quite THAT bad. From home to desk is about 20 minutes for me, even if I cover 30km. Traffic isn't horrible (yet) but it's getting worse. Boomtown and all that, eh?

For college grads focused on student loan payments, car payments certainly are quite that bad... (And in Moncton there isn't a public transit option).
Respectfully, I would disagree that Moncton is booming. Though I will admit there is growth in the Moncton region (particularly Dieppe), this growth is disproportionately in the suburbs in the form of low-density residential subdivisions and business parks. This will add to traffic problems; you are correct.

(My bigger concern is infrastructure debt and the forced expansion of public services.)

"virtually" ;) By and large it's quite true that aside from a few fairly fast-growing areas, most of NB is/has headed elsewhere to look for work, which is sad. The provincial finances are in rough shape, it's true.

Nova Scotia is extremely guilty of wasteful spending as well. With so much debt, you'd think our two provinces would be extremely focused on sustainable development, which necessitates sustainable urban planning.

I just wish we had a way to better tax them when they retire back home to NB... :D

Yes, after working elsewhere...moving home to NB to retire, driving-up healthcare costs that are being supported by an aging labour force and equalisation transfers from Ottawa. Lovely... :(

I'm waiting for Moncton's rock bottom, such as that in Saint John, that forces the municipality (and to a major extent, the province) to work toward density of the core -- without the 'culture of defeat' mentality; the most recent example being the idea if Moncton receives another handout from Ottawa in order to construct a downtown events centre, the downtown will suddenly be saved...

Moncton doesn't need this form of stimulus in order to begin progress with inward urbanism. If it were focused on inward urbanism already, it's quite possible Moncton would be able to afford this modestly sized events centre itself -- perhaps only needing help from the province.

[Dmajackson]

Ah, so that's where the other half went.... ;)

Well of the Acadian Peninsula at least. Whats the projected '0 population' date for that area again? Two months? :P

Oh, it's not quite THAT bad. From home to desk is about 20 minutes for me, even if I cover 30km. Traffic isn't horrible (yet) but it's getting worse. Boomtown and all that, eh?

Don't worry. If you stay where you are you will soon have a comparably good commute. In a few years Moncton will sprawl to take over have of Southern New Brunswick! Other than Fredericton, Saint John and a couple small towns in between the rest will be owned by Irving. (They might as well own Fredericton though, eh?) :)

I just wish we had a way to better tax them when they retire back home to NB... :D

I hope you find a way. Halifax wants to keep its population age under the national average. We can't afford to keep New Brunswick alive!

[RyeJay]

New Brunswick: It seems to me that New Brunswick's relationship with Labrador is stronger than its relationship to Newfoundland. There are even flights from northern New Brunswick to Labrador's airports. The province doesn't come up on Newfoundland's radar very often - which is a pity because we share a strong desire to slow down or even reverse any gains for Halifax that come at our expense. Newfoundland - the people and the government - greatly appreciated New Brunswick's unwillingness to sell MB Hydro to Hydro Quebec. There's no animosity between New Brunswick and Newfoundland that I've ever encountered. I found people there knew very little about Newfoundland, but the same is true in reverse. And they were always kind.

Fascinating! :)

[RyeJay]

I hope you find a way. Halifax wants to keep its population age under the national average. We can't afford to keep New Brunswick alive!

I love both Halifax and Moncton. Halifax is where I attended school; Moncton is my hometown. I want both places to do well. I realise, however, Halifax is the only place in the Maritimes where there is density and the allure of urban living.

I want this to change. I want Moncton to densify and give Halifax a run for its money. :yes:

[Nashe]

For college grads focused on student loan payments, car payments certainly are quite that bad... (And in Moncton there isn't a public transit option).I agree there, but historically, there hasn't been as big of a need for it. Ridership has never been huge on transit (when it wasn't locked out) because (I'm only guessing) the student component just isn't a factor, here.
Respectfully, I would disagree that Moncton is booming. Though I will admit there is growth in the Moncton region (particularly Dieppe), this growth is disproportionately in the suburbs in the form of low-density residential subdivisions and business parks.Feel free. Our unemployment rates are quite comparable, methinks.
Yes, after working elsewhere...moving home to NB to retire, driving-up healthcare costs that are being supported by an aging labour force and equalisation transfers from Ottawa. Lovely... :(Yeah, that's my gripe.
I'm waiting for Moncton's rock bottom, such as that in Saint John, that forces the municipality (and to a major extent, the province) to work toward density of the core -- without the 'culture of defeat' mentality; the most recent example being the idea if Moncton receives another handout from Ottawa in order to construct a downtown events centre...
See, folks? This is the "good natured" sibling rivalry I mentioned earlier... "I can do it!" "No, you can't!" However, I do agree that the urban vibe of Halifax is something I really like. It's just gonna take some time for us to get it here. It'll come. I have faith.

Pop over to the Atlantic forum if you wanna see more of it. :P How we gonna get this thread back on track, RyeJay? :D

[RyeJay]

See, folks? This is the "good natured" sibling rivalry I mentioned earlier... "I can do it!" "No, you can't!" However, I do agree that the urban vibe of Halifax is something I really like. It's just gonna take some time for us to get it here. It'll come. I have faith.

Pop over to the Atlantic forum if you wanna see more of it. :P How we gonna get this thread back on track, RyeJay? :D

I want an events centre in downtown Moncton, though. I'm not saying "no, you can't." I'm just disappointed by Monctonians who think the city's future is resting upon this centre -- which is resting upon federal dollars.

If the events centre doesn't happen, I still want Moncton's efforts of tax reform and sustainable urban planning to come to fruition, as these elements are the true components for the city's future.

I need Moncton to do well... I need my hometown to exist when it's time for me to retire ;)

[Nashe]

I want an events centre in downtown Moncton, though. I'm not saying "no, you can't." I'm just disappointed by Monctonians who think the city's future is resting upon this centre -- which is resting upon federal dollars.While I think some (in these forums) believe that to be the case, I try to give the majority more credit than that. An events center is an important brick, but it isn't the only one.
I need Moncton to do well... I need my hometown to exist when it's time for me to retire ;)Get off my lawn! :D

[floobie]

MY relationship with neighbouring provinces:

BC - Grandparents and some other extended family live there. Go fairly often to visit.
Saskatchewan - I've never been and don't feel particularly compelled to.
NWT - Ditto. Too cool and barren for me anyway.

How I perceive Alberta's generalized relationships with these provinces:

BC - Some oil and gas there. Everyone retires in the Okanagan.
Saskatchewan - More oil and gas there. That is all.
NWT - I dunno.

[RyeJay]

Get off my lawn! :D

I'll be looking for a nice downtown condo, actually :tup:

[Nashe]

I'll be looking for a nice downtown condo, actually :tup:As long as you're OK with spending the entirety of your golden years watching the tidal bore meander by, we've got those... :D

[RyeJay]

As long as you're OK with spending the entirety of your golden years watching the tidal bore meander by, we've got those... :D

I enjoy the trail along the riverfront, with its parks and view of the downtown cityscape.

[VANRIDERFAN]

MY relationship with neighbouring provinces:

BC - Grandparents and some other extended family live there. Go fairly often to visit.
Saskatchewan - I've never been and don't feel particularly compelled to.
NWT - Ditto. Too cool and barren for me anyway.

How I perceive Alberta's generalized relationships with these provinces:

BC - Some oil and gas there. Everyone retires in the Okanagan.
Saskatchewan - More oil and gas there. That is all.
NWT - I dunno.


You should never discount a place until you actually go there. But seeing your attitude that is on display here, I have a feeling it would be a lost cause.

[patm]

Just as an fyi, The Canucks - Flames rivalry has to be the most intense non-violent rivalry in sport.

I just hate them SO much.

But outside of that I think Albertans love BC in general. Most probably view it as a playground.

[Hali87]

I agree, I live in the Columbia Valley and something that I don't quite understand is why don't Albertans develop the eastern side of the Rockies for recreational uses instead of driving over the mountains every time they want to go boating or sledding? Maybe it has something to do with the National Parks?

And RyeJay, I've heard mention a few times that Moncton doesn't have public transit, but it DOES, right? Unless they sold all their buses in the last couple years.

[MonctonRad]

And RyeJay, I've heard mention a few times that Moncton doesn't have public transit, but it DOES, right? Unless they sold all their buses in the last couple years.

I believe that he is referring obliquely to the fact that Codiac Transit has been locked out because of a contract dispute for about five months now. The union is cracking though, so I expect the busses in Moncton to be running in a week or so.

[Hali87]

I believe that he is referring obliquely to the fact that Codiac Transit has been locked out because of a contract dispute for about five months now. The union is cracking though, so I expect the busses in Moncton to be running in a week or so.

WOW. And I thought 6 weeks was bad. What's the public mood like, or was it ever even really considered a big deal?

(background: 6 week long transit strike in Halifax last winter. The general public was outraged pretty much the whole time and the transit union in particular became the lightning rod for a lot of frustration, although the city took a lot of flak too. Tim Bosquet, one of the city's more prominent journalists, and The Coast, the weekly newsmagazine he edits, also took major blows to their popularity and credibility as a result of his coverage of the strike. Looking back, I'm not really convinced that we as a city learned anything from the experience.)