High gas prices thread

[CentralGrad258]

I checked and there doesn't seem to be a thread about the recent run up in gas prices (here in the US at least), which is kind of surprising. So might as well get a discussion going. I wonder if it's going to be sustained. I guess alot of that depends on the international situation with Iran, so hopefully nothing too crazy happens there. There is debate whether this will hurt the economic recovery, so I guess we'll start to see the effect or lack there of, pretty soon.

Generally speaking though, high gas prices are a boon to urban living, as we city dwellers are relatively insulated from the biggest hit to the wallet. I'm feeling quite smug about taking my public transportation or bicycling to work. Ok, sometime I'll ride my motorcycle, but 7 miles round trip is not exactly going to bankrupt me. How are other people feeling about what's going on?

Article, just to make it official:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/27/usa-gasoline-price-idUSL2E8DREPW20120227

[gtbassett]

Gas prices should be higher. The fact that the gas tax hasn't been risen or even adjusted for inflation since the 80s is a travesty. I feel no sympathy for those that are slaves to the pump, while I understand that most don't really have a choice but to be car dependent because of the nature of their living arrangement and professions, America needs petroleum prices to rise and never fall back down. In order to really revolutionize our infrastructure and move away from our automobile dependent lifestyle we need to hurt all car drivers in their wallets, then they'll eventually be clamoring for better public transit and more dense, walkable neighborhoods once they realize that complaining about rising gas prices is useless and cheap, widely available gas is a thing of the past.

[LosAngelesSportsFan]

unfortunately, i need to drive because of work (im a realtor, and not all of my business is located around areas with mass transit) and this effects me. i live in Downtown LA, so when im at home, its no problem cause i walk or metro it everywhere, but for work, its a pain. Gas is currently at 4.37 a gallon for 87 here

[lawfin]

Gas prices have risen? Hmm, haven't noticed

[CentralGrad258]

Gas prices should be higher. The fact that the gas tax hasn't been risen or even adjusted for inflation since the 80s is a travesty. I feel no sympathy for those that are slaves to the pump, while I understand that most don't really have a choice but to be car dependent because of the nature of their living arrangement and professions, America needs petroleum prices to rise and never fall back down. In order to really revolutionize our infrastructure and move away from our automobile dependent lifestyle we need to hurt all car drivers in their wallets, then they'll eventually be clamoring for better public transit and more dense, walkable neighborhoods once they realize that complaining about rising gas prices is useless and cheap, widely available gas is a thing of the past.
I think the last time gas taxes had risen was during the Clinton administration. Although I agree that they should be higher, it's just hard to imagine that happening in this political environment. Any politician proposing a gas tax increase, at least at the national level, would get absolutely savaged. Even with the current increase which is based on speculation and rising demand from China, we have demagogues like Gingrich promising to magically lower the gas prices to $2.50 a gallon when they get elected.

[Misterfreeman87]

I d say gas in the States is still reaaaally cheap, in compare to Europe at least.

Here is a table with the gas price in different countries around the world (in German though):

http://www.bild.de/media/vw-super-benzin-22816644/Download/1.bild.pdf

Norway leads with 2,01€ for a liter = 10,27$ for a gallon
Second is Italy with 1,75€ (8,95$ for a gallon), Germany is 1,67€ (8,54$ for a gallon).
USA belongs to those with cheapest gas prices among those listed.

[mdiederi]

Where I live gas prices rose sixty cents per gallon in one week, a week ago. I just drove from L.A. to Santa Fe this past week and prices fell as much as a dollar once I crossed into Arizona.

[Cirrus]

They need to say low enough through the election not to cause another recession. At this point, that's probably the only way a Republican wins.

[emathias]

It's important to remember that this seriously impacts public transit, too, particularly diesel-driven commuter rail and bus service. Chicago has done a lot to try and buy hybrid buses and buses with better gas mileage, but every system that runs buses will feel the pinch if fuel prices stay high long enough. Remember the last time we saw this, all those transit agencies that were forced to dramatically cut back service?

[Steely Dan]

my ride gets ∞ mpg.

that's pretty good.

[Nowhereman1280]

^^^ I read somewhere that technically bikes to have a "MPG" figure related to small amounts of grease used in the chains and bearings that gradually needs to be replaced over time. Anyhow the dude calculated it and it was like six figures.

Who calculates these things I don't know, but the only 100% non oil based mode of transit is on foot.

Also, good, the higher the gas prices the better. It's time we move on from oil and the only way to do that is to face prices that make it profitable to explore other means of energy transfer.

[Steely Dan]

^ the lubricants used in a bicycle's moving parts need not be petroleum based, however.


in a real sense though, riding a bike does require energy, just as any other form of transportation does, even walking, and someone did the calcs and determined that the bicycle is the single most efficient means of transportation ever devised. yes, mile for mile, riding a bike is even more efficient than walking. if you convert food calories into their gasoline energy equivalents, riding a bike gets somewhere on the order of 1,400 mpg!

[Cirrus]

the only 100% non oil based mode of transit is on foot.
Even that is debatable. Do your shoes or socks contain plastic? Is any of the foot you eat harvested with oil-powered tractors or transported via truck? Does it come in a plastic wrapper? Ultimately it's pretty impossible to separate anything in our civilization completely from oil consumption.

But of course, it's not a zero sum game. It's an issue of degree and sustainability.

[Cirrus]

someone did the calcs and determined that the bicycle is the single most efficient means of transportation ever devised.
I've heard this claim before but have never seen the math.

I definitely believe the claim if we're talking about moving downhill. I *maybe* believe it on a level surface. I don't believe it going uphill (walking is definitely easier). So ultimately it probably depends on your assumptions.

[Gordo]

A bike is certainly more useful in more circumstances, but sitting on a log floating down a river would be more efficient in terms of energy use :) In winter months, cross-country skis might best a bike as well (depending on hill placement, etc)

[untitledreality]

the bicycle is the single most efficient means of transportation ever devised. yes, mile for mile, riding a bike is even more efficient than walking. if you convert food calories into their gasoline energy equivalents, riding a bike gets somewhere on the order of 1,400 mpg!
Yeah, I forget the exact numbers, but in terms of calories/mile, travel by bicycle averages around three times the efficiency of walking and about fifty times more efficient than automobiles. Its quite amazing.

[brickell]

Bunch of mumbo jumbo with a chart here (http://truecostblog.com/2010/05/27/fuel-efficiency-modes-of-transportation-ranked-by-mpg/):


Transport Average PMPG Max PMPG
Bicycle [3] 984 984
Walking [1] 700 700
Freight Ship [10] 340 570
Running [2] 315 315
Freight Train [7] 190.5 190.5
Plugin Hybrid [5] 110.6 350
Motorcycle [4] 71.8 113
Passenger Train [7] 71.6 189.7
Airplane [9] 42.6 53.6
Bus [8] 38.3 330
Car [4] 35.7 113
18-Wheeler (Truck) [5] 32.2 64.4
Light Truck, SUV, Minivan [4] 31.4 91

[Steely Dan]

A bike is certainly more useful in more circumstances, but sitting on a log floating down a river would be more efficient in terms of energy use
and floating through interstellar space would be even more efficient still. i think the given assumption here was LAND transportation. my bad for not being more specific.



In winter months, cross-country skis might best a bike as well (depending on hill placement, etc)
i would be surprised if it were. cross country skiing is one of the most physically exhausting activities i've ever done.

[Gordo]

and floating through interstellar space would be even more efficient still. i think the given assumption here was LAND transportation. sorry for not being more specific.

The tone of the thread seemed to be tongue in cheek ;)

i would be surprised if it were. cross country skiing is one of the most physically exhausting activities i've ever done.

You're probably right most of the time, but with good waxing and a packed down path (and especially with well-placed rolling hills), you can build up some crazy speed with very little exertion needed to maintain it. Like bicycling, getting up to that speed requires the most energy. Also, I meant to imply that biking in winter likely requires more energy (assuming snow) than in other times of year, if it's possible at all. I do have a couple friends from snowy areas that swap out their bike wheels with a ski on the front and spikier/wider tires on the back, and those things are physically exhausting to ride at any reasonable speed.

[ChrisLA]

Those who thinks that rising gas prices doesn't impact them. You're wrong, I say keep a very close watch on your daily necessities such as food, household products, and dinning. How do you think all of these things come into your city?

[Steely Dan]

Those who thinks that rising gas prices doesn't impact them. You're wrong, I say keep a very close watch on your daily necessities such as food, household products, and dinning. How do you think all of these things come into your city?

rising gas prices obviously effect everyone. no one here is saying otherwise and only a fool would believe such.

however, rising gas prices do not effect all of us equally. they affect the man who commutes 50 miles/day in his 15mpg pick-up a lot more than they affect me, a bicycle commuter. gas going up 2 bucks a gallon may make my weekly food and household item budget go up by several dollars, however for our pick-up driving friend, his weekly food and household item budget not only goes up by the same several dollars, but also, his weekly gasoline bill goes up an additional $28 dollars. it hits some A LOT harder than others.

[mbeaumont]

Gas prices here in Montreal are equivalent to about $5.40 a US Gallon, I only fill up my vehicle about once every two weeks, so it dosen't me at all

[Jelly Roll]

I fill up my gas tank on my car every 2-3 weeks. Now that the weather is getting nice I get to start taking my bike to work so it will be even less.

[uaarkson]

I have a 50 min round trip commute to work 5 days a week. I might actually feel like I was making $25/hr. if it weren't for these shitty gas prices and this shitty suburban hell in which I am stuck (hint: I don't really live in Ann Arbor proper).

[jg6544]

In the U. S., at least, we've known since the '70s that this would happen one day. Why all the shock and horror now that it has?

[wong21fr]

In the U. S., at least, we've known since the '70s that this would happen one day. Why all the shock and horror now that it has?

It's an election year. Every little bit of economically relevant minutia has to be reacted at with shock and horror.

[zilfondel]

Funny. Last time I rode my bike, I didn't drink gasoline for breakfast. ;)

[gtbassett]

Those who thinks that rising gas prices doesn't impact them. You're wrong, I say keep a very close watch on your daily necessities such as food, household products, and dinning. How do you think all of these things come into your city?

Luckily I tend to shop and source my food as locally as possible. Farmers markets, and supporting local companies at the grocery store can go a long way in reducing your carbon footprint. Call me a pretentious localvore liberal, it's pretty true and I realize that many people do not have the luxury of having widely available local produce year round, but I do so I tend to take advantage of it.

It is possible to severely reduce your dependence on fossil fuels in all aspects of life, it just takes a lot more effort and knowledge of what you're consuming.

Edit: Also bicycle commuting for the win.

[Jelly Roll]

Funny. Last time I rode my bike, I didn't drink gasoline for breakfast. ;)
I knew I was doing something wrong. No wonder why I got so tired riding around:cheers:

[rsbear]

Gas price report:

Tuesday, February 28, 2012

Central Beverly Hills Union 76 (gas is always expensive there)
Super (91 octane) - $4.99 9/10 (so $5.00 per gallon)

Studio City Union 76
Super (91 octane) - $4.74 9/10

Studio City Mobil
Super (91 octane) - $4.79 9/10


Regular was $4.49 9/20 at both Studio City stations.

If prices continue to increase at the same rate, Super will be $5.00 + everywhere in So Cal in less than two weeks.

[pesto]

Funny. Last time I rode my bike, I didn't drink gasoline for breakfast. ;)

Yeah, you did. How did the food, drink, glasses, dishes, table, silver (or plastic) ware, etc., get from China, Mexico, the midwest, etc., to the distributors, retailers and your house?

[pesto]

Gas price report:

Tuesday, February 28, 2012

Central Beverly Hills Union 76 (gas is always expensive there)
Super (91 octane) - $4.99 9/10 (so $5.00 per gallon)

Studio City Union 76
Super (91 octane) - $4.74 9/10

Studio City Mobil
Super (91 octane) - $4.79 9/10


Regular was $4.49 9/20 at both Studio City stations.

If prices continue to increase at the same rate, Super will be $5.00 + everywhere in So Cal in less than two weeks.

Same in NorCal. Easy to see $4.60. I'm sure somewhere in the City has higher. Of course, much of this is tax.

[glowrock]

I really hate the pretentiousness of those who always continue to brag about their riding bicycles for commuting whenever a gas price thread comes up. Seems like someone can never win, unless of course you're one of those people who lives in the middle of town and refuses to accept a job that isn't either walking/biking/transit access distance... No suburban jobs, eh? Must be nice to have such awesome job prospects that you can limit yourself like that! :yes:

Look, if you don't think you're affected by high gas prices, just say it, and get on with life. No need to rub car-driver's noses in it, ya know...

As for me, I personally can't stand high gas prices, as I do need to commute around 20 miles each way for work... (I refuse to live in south suburban/exurban Pittsburgh which is near my workplace. I wanted to live in the city itself for once in my life! Oh yeah, no transit out by my workplace is available, either...) Of course it's good for my career, given I work in the oil & gas services industry as a geoscientist...

Aaron (Glowrock)

[Steely Dan]

^ my job is out in the burbs, but i'm just so crazy about cycling that i'm willing to bike commute 15 miles each way to get to it.

bicycles completely rule the universe!


and as i already pointed out, high gas prices affect everyone, it's just that the effects are nowhere near evenly distributed depending on the choices we make of where to live, work, and get around. you may not be in a postition to be a bike commuter right now, but your current situation may change in the future, and you may one day find yourself in a living/work situation where it might be possible, and i would hope that you would be open to it.

becoming a bike commuter has radically changed my entire life, blessing me with so many benefits. the reason it says "born again cyclist" under my username above is because i truly feel that way. i feel like cycling has saved my soul. it's far and away my number 1 passion in life (outside of family/freinds) and i'm an ardent believer that bicycles can be a significant part of the solution for creating a better world for ourselves. 40% of all car trips made from home in the US are 2 miles or less and 50% of US workers live within 5 miles of work (both distances well within a bicycle's wheelhouse). imagine if all of those car trips were replaced with bikes. that would be HUGE!!!!!!!

that's why we bike commuters always bring up bicycles in these gas prices threads, because we already know that there is a better way. it may not be a way that works for you and your situation right now, but millions upon millions of other americans could be taking better advantage of the benefits of cycling, but americans seem to excel at making excuses.

[zilfondel]

Yeah, you did. How did the food, drink, glasses, dishes, table, silver (or plastic) ware, etc., get from China, Mexico, the midwest, etc., to the distributors, retailers and your house?


Granted, you're right. But it doesn't have to be that way. Not that burning liquid fuels is inherently bad or anything.

I saw one of these the other day:

http://www.staples.com/sbd/cre/marketing/ecoeasy/images/corporate_initiative_header.jpg
pic courtesy of staples.com (http://www.staples.com/sbd/cre/marketing/ecoeasy/our_commitment.html)

Then there's also electric cycle delivery vehicles:

http://b-linepdx.com/

Relevancy? Even large multi-million/billion dollar companies are investing in new transport tech.

[Jelly Roll]

I really hate the pretentiousness of those who always continue to brag about their riding bicycles for commuting whenever a gas price thread comes up. Seems like someone can never win, unless of course you're one of those people who lives in the middle of town and refuses to accept a job that isn't either walking/biking/transit access distance... No suburban jobs, eh? Must be nice to have such awesome job prospects that you can limit yourself like that! :yes:

Look, if you don't think you're affected by high gas prices, just say it, and get on with life. No need to rub car-driver's noses in it, ya know...

As for me, I personally can't stand high gas prices, as I do need to commute around 20 miles each way for work... (I refuse to live in south suburban/exurban Pittsburgh which is near my workplace. I wanted to live in the city itself for once in my life! Oh yeah, no transit out by my workplace is available, either...) Of course it's good for my career, given I work in the oil & gas services industry as a geoscientist...

Aaron (Glowrock)

I have a job in the suburbs and bike to work except when it is raining or really cold out. I did not really think the people who bike were being all that pretentious to be honest.

[202_Cyclist]

I saw a Coca Cola electric delivery van the other weekend. It was pretty cool.

Coca-Cola Refreshments Rolls Out Six Zero-Emission Electric Trucks
http://www.thecoca-colacompany.com/dynamic/press_center/2011/09/zero-emission-electric-trucks.html

I got into a Facebook comment war about high gas prices with someone yesterday. I have no sympathy for people who think investing in transit is socialist, bike lanes and walkable communities are un-American, and that driving the largest, least efficient vehilce possible is patriotic and then whine like little babies when the price of gas increases by a dime or two.

We've had volitile oil prices since at least 1973-74, so it's not like we haven't had four decades to prepare.

It is not difficult to figure out how to significantly reduce our consumption of oil. Encourage the development of natural gas in a safe and environmentally responsible manner. Use the royalties and taxes this generates to highly subsidize electric/plug-in electric vehicles that get 60 - 100 mpg-equivalent. Raise the gas tax by fifty cents or a dollar (phased in over several years to give people time to adjust) and use this revenue to invest in a significant expansion of transit and passenger rail (you'd also get a huge building boom constructing walkable transit-oriented development, putting the many unemployed construction workers back to work).

[ChrisLA]

=zilfondel;5610243]Granted, you're right. But it doesn't have to be that way. Not that burning liquid fuels is inherently bad or anything.

I saw one of these the other day:

http://www.staples.com/sbd/cre/marketing/ecoeasy/images/corporate_initiative_header.jpg
pic courtesy of staples.com (http://www.staples.com/sbd/cre/marketing/ecoeasy/our_commitment.html)

Then there's also electric cycle delivery vehicles:



I applaud their efforts as it makes good business sense. Yet they are still burning oil to produce electricity on our many generators. It's just good advertisement.

[202_Cyclist]

Let's also be clear about what is responsible for the recent increase in the price of oil-- strong demand in developing countries and instability in the Middle East. Exxon Mobil's (certainly not a bunch of hippy socialists) estimates in its 2012 energy outlook (which looks forward to 2040) that demand for energy will largely be flat in North America and Europe, while increasing by almost sixty percent in the non-OECD countries, including China, Brazil, India, and sub-Saharan African nations. The growth of these countries is expanding markets for exports of US goods and services.

http://www.exxonmobil.com/Corporate/files/news_pub_eo.pdf

Second, instability in the Middle East, including the possiblity of military action with Iran is also increasing the price of oil. Anyone who advocates that we "bomb, bomb, bomb Iran" should forfeit the right to complain about high gas prices.

[202_Cyclist]

ChrisLA:
I applaud their efforts as it makes good business sense. Yet they are still burning oil to produce electricity on our many generators. It's just good advertisement.


Not necessarily. Most electricity in CA is produced from natural gas. In the Northwest, hydro is a major source of electricity. In other places, nuclear. There are vast supplies of natural gas here in the US. The US was a net energy exporter for the first time last year in six decades. Of course, the challenge is developing this in a clean, responsible way. Many economists are speculating that some energy-intensive manufacturing industries will move back to the US from abroad because of this availability of domestic energy.

Tom Friedman's column from this past Sunday is a must-read.

A Good Question

"Then, add the recent discoveries of natural gas deposits all over America, which will allow us to substitute gas for coal at power plants and become a natural gas exporter as well. Put it all together, says Verleger, and you can see why America “will want to consider joining with other energy-exporting countries, like those in OPEC, to sustain high oil prices. Such an effort would support domestic oil and gas production and give the U.S. a real competitive advantage over countries forced to pay high prices for imported energy — nations such as China, European Union members, and Japan.”

Indeed, Bloomberg News reported last week that “the U.S. is the closest it has been in almost 20 years to achieving energy self-sufficiency. ... Domestic oil output is the highest in eight years. The U.S. is producing so much natural gas that, where the government warned four years ago of a critical need to boost imports, it now may approve an export terminal.” As a result, “the U.S. has reversed a two-decade-long decline in energy independence, increasing the proportion of demand met from domestic sources over the last six years to an estimated 81 percent through the first 10 months of 2011.” This transformation could make the U.S. the world’s top energy producer by 2020, raise more tax revenue, free us from worrying about the Middle East, and, if we’re smart, build a bridge to a much cleaner energy future..."

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/26/opinion/sunday/friedman-a-good-question.html

The potential for a grand-bargain with expanded natural gas production and the investment in transit and subsidies for plug-in vehicles exists. This would be an overwhelmingly popular policy if people in Congress could agree to it.

[glowrock]

^ my job is out in the burbs, but i'm just so crazy about cycling that i'm willing to bike commute 15 miles each way to get to it.

bicycles completely rule the universe!


and as i already pointed out, high gas prices affect everyone, it's just that the effects are nowhere near evenly distributed depending on the choices we make of where to live, work, and get around. you may not be in a postition to be a bike commuter right now, but your current situation may change in the future, and you may one day find yourself in a living/work situation where it might be possible, and i would hope that you would be open to it.

becoming a bike commuter has radically changed my entire life, blessing me with so many benefits. the reason it says "born again cyclist" under my username above is because i truly feel that way. i feel like cycling has saved my soul. it's far and away my number 1 passion in life (outside of family/freinds) and i'm an ardent believer that bicycles can be a significant part of the solution for creating a better world for ourselves. 40% of all car trips made from home in the US are 2 miles or less and 50% of US workers live within 5 miles of work (both distances well within a bicycle's wheelhouse). imagine if all of those car trips were replaced with bikes. that would be HUGE!!!!!!!

that's why we bike commuters always bring up bicycles in these gas prices threads, because we already know that there is a better way. it may not be a way that works for you and your situation right now, but millions upon millions of other americans could be taking better advantage of the benefits of cycling, but americans seem to excel at making excuses.

Ladies and gentlemen, may I proudly present a prime example of what I consider to be the stereotypical obnoxious, pretentious cycle-commuter! :banana:

Dude, I'm glad that you love cycling so much. More power to you! But damn, replace cycling with one of numerous religions, and it's literally like you're preaching!

Aaron (Glowrock)

[Steely Dan]

replace cycling with one of numerous religions, and it's literally like you're preaching!

absolutely. i have seen the light and i must share it with the (terribly misguided) world.

bicycles completely rule the universe!

I have been blessed with The Truth, and The Truth has set me free!





enjoy your next visit to the gas pump.

[glowrock]

Tongue-in-cheek or not, this is just ridiculous. :rolleyes:

Aaron (Glowrock)

[Steely Dan]

bicycles can save your wallet, save your health, save your soul, and save the planet!

ridiculous or not, it's The Truth!

[glowrock]

bicycles can save your wallet, save your health, save your soul, and save the planet!

ridiculous or not, it's The Truth!

:drowning:

This is Aaron literally drowning in the sea of douche that's emanating his computer from this thread right about now... In a few minutes, he will be :dead:

Aaron (Glowrock)

[Steely Dan]

^ you would have no need to resort to suicide if you would just accept bicycle into your heart.

be saved, my automobile-enslaved brother!

[glowrock]

^ you would have no need to resort to suicide if you would just accept bicycle into your heart.

be saved, my automobile-enslaved brother!

Next time I get out to Chicago, we've got to meet up, Steely Dan. First of all, so I can smack you upside the head. Secondly, so we can grab some brews! :yes:

Aaron (Glowrock)

[photoLith]

Whenever I work from the office, my drive right now is 48 miles one way. Im putting over 700 miles on my new car a week, plus driving back and forth to Louisiana all the time is super killer. I just bought my car about a week and half ago and its already got 1200 miles on it. Right now gas here is around 3.59 in Houston. My car is nearly getting 40mpg though. On Friday Im moving to downtown Houston and finally getting out of the suburbs; and now Ill just be driving around 30 miles round trip from to the office and back.

[bigcubfan]

I'm luckier than some folks. I have only a 20 minute commute to work and back. My car, a 4cyl '05 Accord, is eco friendly, and good on gas. Even though I do have to drive everywhere (this is Indy after all:D) I live close to shopping, etc and many months I put under 500 miles on it. Thankfully my main credit card (Chase Freedom) is offering 5% cash back on gas in 2 quarters this year which helps too.

[CentralGrad258]

Limited Gas Pains: Why the U.S. is Better Able to Handle Higher Gas Prices

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daniel-gross/limited-gas-pains-why-u-better-able-handle-153416885.html

...In the last few years, the corporate sector got religion about efficiency. Walmart has steadily increased the fuel efficiency of its vast trucking fleet. Through the use of smart logistics and route planning, UPS has shown it can significantly increase the number of packages it delivers even as its trucks drive fewer miles. Businesses that have to spend the most money on gas have the biggest incentive work on efficiency.

....Americans simply drive less, and use less gas, than they used to. Part of that can be ascribed to the fact that employment remains far below the 2007 peak. But on the aggregate, the U.S. economy has figured out how to move more good and people around while driving fewer miles and using less gas. The volume of crude products supplied in the U.S. peaked in 2005 at 7.59 billion barrels, and fell dramatically to 6.85 billion in 2009, and then rose to 7 billion in 2010. That's less than the amount used in 2001. The figure was down again through the first 11 months of 2011, even though the economy and employment were growing.

...Thanks to consumer pull, government push, and smart engineering, the typical internal combustion engine produced today is significantly more efficient than the one produced a few years ago. For example, GM has now made eAssist standard in its Buick LaCrosse, which boosts its energy efficiency by about 30 percent (city) and 20 percent (highway). The Ford Focus gets 40 miles per gallon, and the company announced earlier this week that sales in February were likely to surpass 20,000, double the amount from February 2011. Chrysler boasts that it has 13 cars in its portfolio that get more than 25 miles per gallon on the highway. Cars sold in 2011 got an average of 33.9 miles per gallon compared with 31.2 in 2007 and 29 in 2002.

I was wondering what, if any, long term effect the previous gas price spike would have this time around. It looks like corporate America at least got the memo. Could you imagine the improvement in efficiency if we had a moderate increase on the gas tax and proper government investment in the public transit infrastructure?

[lawfin]

I was wondering what, if any, long term effect the previous gas price spike would have this time around. It looks like corporate America at least got the memo. Could you imagine the improvement in efficiency if we had a moderate increase on the gas tax and proper government investment in the public transit infrastructure?

Impossible with GOPper baggers screaming communism or nazism or islamism or fascism or x -ism at any sensible regulatory or tax proposal

[lawfin]

Let's also be clear about what is responsible for the recent increase in the price of oil-- strong demand in developing countries and instability in the Middle East. Exxon Mobil's (certainly not a bunch of hippy socialists) estimates in its 2012 energy outlook (which looks forward to 2040) that demand for energy will largely be flat in North America and Europe, while increasing by almost sixty percent in the non-OECD countries, including China, Brazil, India, and sub-Saharan African nations. The growth of these countries is expanding markets for exports of US goods and services.

http://www.exxonmobil.com/Corporate/files/news_pub_eo.pdf

Second, instability in the Middle East, including the possiblity of military action with Iran is also increasing the price of oil. Anyone who advocates that we "bomb, bomb, bomb Iran" should forfeit the right to complain about high gas prices.

Pretty much

[lawfin]

Those who thinks that rising gas prices doesn't impact them. You're wrong, I say keep a very close watch on your daily necessities such as food, household products, and dinning. How do you think all of these things come into your city?

Did anyone prior you your post say that? I don't see it.

[lawfin]

I really hate the pretentiousness of those who always continue to brag about their riding bicycles for commuting whenever a gas price thread comes up. Seems like someone can never win, unless of course you're one of those people who lives in the middle of town and refuses to accept a job that isn't either walking/biking/transit access distance... No suburban jobs, eh? Must be nice to have such awesome job prospects that you can limit yourself like that! :yes:

Look, if you don't think you're affected by high gas prices, just say it, and get on with life. No need to rub car-driver's noses in it, ya know...

As for me, I personally can't stand high gas prices, as I do need to commute around 20 miles each way for work... (I refuse to live in south suburban/exurban Pittsburgh which is near my workplace. I wanted to live in the city itself for once in my life! Oh yeah, no transit out by my workplace is available, either...) Of course it's good for my career, given I work in the oil & gas services industry as a geoscientist...

Aaron (Glowrock)

I really hate the pretentiousness of those who always continue to put words in the mouths of others and combine it with a serious case of sour grapes

[Ch.G, Ch.G]

I really hate the pretentiousness of those who always continue to brag about their riding bicycles for commuting whenever a gas price thread comes up. Seems like someone can never win, unless of course you're one of those people who lives in the middle of town and refuses to accept a job that isn't either walking/biking/transit access distance... No suburban jobs, eh? Must be nice to have such awesome job prospects that you can limit yourself like that! :yes:

Look, if you don't think you're affected by high gas prices, just say it, and get on with life. No need to rub car-driver's noses in it, ya know...

As for me, I personally can't stand high gas prices, as I do need to commute around 20 miles each way for work... (I refuse to live in south suburban/exurban Pittsburgh which is near my workplace. I wanted to live in the city itself for once in my life! Oh yeah, no transit out by my workplace is available, either...) Of course it's good for my career, given I work in the oil & gas services industry as a geoscientist...

Aaron (Glowrock)

No one is being 'pretentious.' Maybe you mean smug or self-satisfied, but I didn't get that impression at all from Steely's post. The fact is—and I say this as someone who most certainly does NOT bike and who is still reliant on his car—people who walk, bike or use public transportation in doing so contribute more to better cities, a cleaner environment and a country less subject to the geopolitics of oil than those who drive everywhere. If everyone chose that lifestyle, we'd all be much better off. Unfortunately, it comes with its own set of costs (for example, as you noted, you wouldn't be able to live in a city and take a better paying job in the far-flung suburbs or exurbs), and the simple fact is a lot of people aren't willing to make those kinds of sacrifices. Which is fine; it's your prerogative: your job is more important than your transportation lifestyle and its effects, so you live where you want (the city) and work at the job you want (in the 'burbs) and unwittingly support a problematic car culture. But you can't then expect much sympathy from people who made the choice to give up one of those things in order to have car-free access to their place of employment when something like rising gas prices makes your lifestyle increasingly difficult to maintain, especially when we all knew it was coming.

The federal government was the chief instigator of decentralization and sprawl. Still, we have long since realized it's an untenable model for growth. But our culture so abandoned cities in favor of a 'suburban dream' (made possible only by the automobile) that a lot of people refuse to acknowledge there's a viable, alternative way to live. Those who 'get it' and, in the last twenty years or so, have moved to cities to live and work are a big part of the reason companies that fled in the '70s are finally changing course and relocating back to CBDs. If everyone put this kind of pressure on businesses (for example, by not taking jobs in distant 'burbs), I believe many more would follow suit and many of our problems would be solved. More likely, the rising cost of gas will force it.

[zilfondel]

Whenever I work from the office, my drive right now is 48 miles one way. Im putting over 700 miles on my new car a week, plus driving back and forth to Louisiana all the time is super killer. I just bought my car about a week and half ago and its already got 1200 miles on it. Right now gas here is around 3.59 in Houston. My car is nearly getting 40mpg though. On Friday Im moving to downtown Houston and finally getting out of the suburbs; and now Ill just be driving around 30 miles round trip from to the office and back.

Over 10 years ago my daily commute was 75+ miles - EACH DIRECTION.

I have long since given up driving to work, as I could just not take it anymore.

And no, I'm not joking. I went car-free for 5 years (because I could), but got a car to escape the city. Still cycle as much as I can, tho.

[lawfin]

No one is being 'pretentious.' Maybe you mean smug or self-satisfied, but I didn't get that impression at all from Steely's post. The fact is—and I say this as someone who most certainly does NOT bike and who is still reliant on his car—people who walk, bike or use public transportation in doing so contribute more to better cities, a cleaner environment and a country less subject to the geopolitics of oil than those who drive everywhere. If everyone chose that lifestyle, we'd all be much better off. Unfortunately, it comes with its own set of costs (for example, as you noted, you wouldn't be able to live in a city and take a better paying job in the far-flung suburbs or exurbs), and the simple fact is a lot of people aren't willing to make those kinds of sacrifices. Which is fine; it's your prerogative: your job is more important than your transportation lifestyle and its effects, so you live where you want (the city) and work at the job you want (in the 'burbs) and unwittingly support a problematic car culture. But you can't then expect much sympathy from people who made the choice to give up one of those things in order to have car-free access to their place of employment when something like rising gas prices makes your lifestyle increasingly difficult to maintain, especially when we all knew it was coming.

The federal government was the chief instigator of decentralization and sprawl. Still, we have long since realized it's an untenable model for growth. But our culture so abandoned cities in favor of a 'suburban dream' (made possible only by the automobile) that a lot of people refuse to acknowledge there's a viable, alternative way to live. Those who 'get it' and, in the last twenty years or so, have moved to cities to live and work are a big part of the reason companies that fled in the '70s are finally changing course and relocating back to CBDs. If everyone put this kind of pressure on businesses (for example, by not taking jobs in distant 'burbs), I believe many more would follow suit and many of our problems would be solved. More likely, the rising cost of gas will force it.

While I agree with your sentiment and hope you are right. I think the more likely resolution of this challenge is a technical development that will essentially take the oil out of the equation via an alternative fuel choice. I think in 20-30 years it is much more likely that transportation modalities will run on some form of stored electric or some such. This may actually make the pressure of decentralization greater rather than limit it.

[McBane]

I think part of the overall problem, at least in the Philly area, is the lack of nice, but affordable walkable communities. In our area, here are your choices:

The city - You have the nice areas that are really nice but very expensive or dumpy neighborhoods with high crime and trashy streets. And no matter where you live within the city, you have a heavy tax burden and awful schools.

Older, inner rung suburbs - Walkable streets and fabulous housing stock but many of the homes, along with the rest of the towns are decaying and their retail strips are half empty. The schools are not very good either.

High end towns - Nice, old, spacious homes great for raising a family, plus excellent schools, walkable streets, and trains to the city. But their commercial strips tend to favor specialty "shoppes" rather than the basics. And these towns are extremely expensive.

It's a shame that walkable communities are either dumps or prohibitively expensive. Unfortunately, the auto-oriented suburbs offer much more diversity in terms of price points that allow buyers the opportunity to balance priorities such as safety, schools, and housing type. Such is reality when you have children.

[Ch.G, Ch.G]

While I agree with your sentiment and hope you are right. I think the more likely resolution of this challenge is a technical development that will essentially take the oil out of the equation via an alternative fuel choice. I think in 20-30 years it is much more likely that transportation modalities will run on some form of stored electric or some such. This may actually make the pressure of decentralization greater rather than limit it.

Yeah, I see technology headed in that direction, too, but I'm skeptical that it will be developed quickly enough to head off some pretty big changes to the way we spatially organize ourselves. In the next 20 or 30 years, the world population will increase by 1 to 2 billion. Incomes are quickly rising across the developing world, and there will be a commensurate strain on natural resources as a new global middle class is able to consume more and more. If we continue to rely on oil as a source of energy, the US will be facing much higher prices because of the demand, and, as far as cars are concerned, I don't think fuel efficiency will increase fast enough to allow Americans to continue the current predominate lifestyle. Like you said, it is more likely that we will find an alternative way of powering vehicles. But even something like stored electricity—which I think would be the best case scenario—would still require refinement to the technology that generates it (e.g., making solar panels, turbines, etc. much more efficient) and big changes, I imagine, to our infrastructure/the energy grid. I'm really not sure all of that could happen in time.