Photos - 2008.04.12 Mckinnon Ravine

[newfangled]

The gf was trying out her fancy new dslr, so I tagged along with my handy point-n-shoot.

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[Harrison]

Great photos Newf! The city will be amazing once it rains and al the trees are green with leaves!

[Kevin_foster]

Awesome day today!!! Great photo's! Let the greening begin!

[CMD UW]

Yea, it was unreal today. The streets were very alive. And I cant believe how many people were out in the ravine...unreal.

[Xelebes]

'Twas an awesome day. Spent most of it in Red Deer. I shall take a walk through the ravines before the skeeters break out.

[240glt]

Great shots. I went for a tour on the bike today, So nice to see people in Chruchill Square, it was actually quite busy downtown this afternoon.

Whyte Ave was very busy with lots of people out on the street and everyone showing off their toys, All shiny from being socked away in the garage all winter.

[Harrison]

just the beginning of Edmonton's uprising in street life! Can't wait to see more people out as spring ensues, and wait until summer!

[Deepstar]

Nice photos. Edmonton's river valley is a jewel for sure.

[S_B_Russell]

McKinninon Ravine! Yeehaw! I walk my dog there twice a day. There are people in the ravine winter or summer.

Living in Edmonton is awesome if you can live by the river valley or a ravine.

[newfangled]

McKinninon Ravine! Yeehaw! I walk my dog there twice a day. There are people in the ravine winter or summer.

Yup.

Anyone who suggests running an LRT through there (and you know who you are :sly:) really needs to take a trip down there.

[sync]

great pics!

[canucklehead2]

Actually, I know this sounds un-PC but "Zoom, Zoom!" I still think some sort of McKinnon freeway needs to be built to take the pressure off Stony Plain Road, 102 Ave and the Whitemud. Even if it was a limited-access tole road. I don't for a second think it's ever going to happen thanks to the Richie-Rich residents of Glenora and Capital Hill but one can dream, right?

[Kevin_foster]

^ you're not really saying we should build a freeway through McKinnon ravine... are you? :/

[S_B_Russell]

I'll take 24/7 traffic jams on Stony Plain Rd, before I'd ever accept a freeway through McKinnon Ravine.

[canucklehead2]

Shockingly yes. Your humble eco-socialist advocates for the occasional Freeway, now and then. I think there is more environmental damage being done by cars idling in traffic than those speeding along at higher speeds. Of course the downside of that is that freeways often encourage the over-dependence on cars and the self-fufilling prophecy of traffic jams, but just looking at how hard it is to get from North Edmonton to South Edmonton without Wayne Gretzky proves my point. Sometimes cities need these roads, and I think Downtown to the West End is one of these projects that has been put off for far too long...

[S_B_Russell]

^ Wrong answer. ;)

[newfangled]

But limited access? What's the point?

Any road or rail through Mckinnon would destroy it regardless. So if you're going to do it - do it big! Eight lanes each way! :tup:

Or... not.

Even if you ran a road through there, where would it go? This would mean widening River Valley Road too? And then this new freeway would tie into the base of the 105st hill, which has its own problems?

At least a road makes more sense than sending a Light Rail Transit through kilometers or pristine and empty parkland.

[Daveography]

^ And when that roadway fills up, what then? Build another? And when that one fills up, should build yet another roadway through the river valley itself? And when that one gets too busy, what else should we sacrifice? Turn SPR into a freeway? Or 107 Ave.? At what point do we say "okay, that's enough roads for now, we've sacrificed enough"?

My opinion is that we've already reached that point; we don't need to sacrifice any more of our river valley parks for the sake of more roads. The river valley and its connected parks are the jewel of this city, that is recognized both from within the city, and from without. This isn't "eco-socialism," this is about protecting the legacy of our city, and not sacrificing our future for the sake of the present.

We can't feasibly end traffic congestion, we can only manage it to the best of our abilities, and that includes making viable alternatives to driving available - i.e., better transit access, bike routes, and increasing the density of existing neighborhoods to encourage more walking instead of commuting.

[newfangled]

^ And when that roadway fills up, what then? Build another? And when that one fills up, should build yet another roadway through the river valley itself?

I think you've found the answer to Edmonton's transportation problems - we need to pave the North Saskatchewan.

Just think of all the traffic that could fit along there. And this way more people would be able to enjoy nature by driving through it.

[Kevin_foster]

I never have any problem getting from Downtown to West End. I've sat in traffic for 4+ minutes, but really... in perspective; traffic does move quite smoothly. Same with North to South... St. Albert Trail/Groat/Calgary Trail is quite efficient... IMO

LRT to the west end could ease the burden, if people would stand behind that instead of promoting more roads! It's easier to add another car onto a train to make it less congested than to widen a road!

Anyways, sounding like a NIMBY here. Don't touch my McKinnon!

[canucklehead2]

I would be in the preserve McKinnon, had it already been left it's natural state. Saying McKinnon is pristine is like saying Astroturf is real grass. Sorry, it ain't.

What I would see is a Groat Road like connector, 2 lanes in each direction with a simple barrier in between. Speed limit would be 70 km/h or so. From what I have seen of River Valley Road this wouldn't really hard to do or cause much disruption since the ROW already looks wide enough to for such a project.

While I certainly agree that LRT to the west end should be a priority and that reducing our dependence on cars is an admirable goal, we should not discount using an existing-underused corridor for a much needed road project.

[newfangled]

I would be in the preserve McKinnon, had it already been left it's natural state. Saying McKinnon is pristine is like saying Astroturf is real grass. Sorry, it ain't.

Yup. People sure do love them some trompin' through scrubbrush.

Mckinnon has had the bare minimum done to it to make it accessible to people. And because of that accessibility it gets tonnes of use. Truly pristine places don't get used - mckenzie ravine would be an example of that.

So losing an amenity like Mckinnon just to create Groat II? Where's the vision? Why even bother? It will be backed up at rushhour the day that it opens.

[canucklehead2]

I beg to differ. What about Mill Creek? That's probably the most pristine park and it's also the most heavily used...

McKinnon didn't have the bare minimum. The whole thing has been scraped down, packed and graded, then covered with a layer of grass... If you peeled back the top, you would see a fully functional road base... That's like saying the road berms for freeway ramps are "the bare minimum" Sorry but that crow won't caw...

[240glt]

beg to differ. What about Mill Creek? That's probably the most pristine park and it's also the most heavily used...

ARG! You're not talking about Mill Creek ravine are you ? I love biking through there, but pristine, it is not. Bum encampments, garbage all over the place, shopping carts and old tires dumped in Mill Creek... It can get pretty nasty down in there.

[SHOFEAR]

not to mention an old railway bed...

[canucklehead2]

But comparatively, it hasn't been disturbed in any major way ie. the creek still actively runs though the ravine, and the railway bed (all five feet wide of it) is the equivalent width of the footpath that now runs over it, unlike said McKinnon, which has a denuded ROW of 60' or so... Damn I can't believe I have to hand-hold this point to you fella's...

[Kevin_foster]

^ We're stinkin nimby's.

McKinnon isn't pristine, but it sure leads into a very pristine area :)

I would settle, at minimum, for a viaduct :)

[240glt]

Damn I can't believe I have to hand-hold this point to you fella's...

Simmah down now....

I suppose in terms of development it would be considered pristine, although I would prefer the term "undeveloped", Even though Mill Creek pool is in there and there is a fairly extensive network of trails & bridges.

I associate the term "pristine" with cleanliness as well... And clean, it is not.

[canucklehead2]

I agree with you on that. Mill Creek is more of an active corridor compared to McKinnon but then again so is a heavily patrolled, sterile mall vs. a sidewalk...

[Kevin_foster]

Unleash some deer and bears. Preferrably the grizzly variation. Then we will have an "undeveloped area" become a "natural living eco area".

Some Elk would't hurt either. Nor would a flock of eagles.

[Daveography]

You're arguing semantics about pristine vs. "disturbed" when that really doesn't matter. What matters is that McKinnon Ravine is a beautiful park that is used by many people daily and connects west end residents to the river valley via walking and biking trails.

Our traffic problems aren't so bad that we need to start ripping through our greenspaces, and even if they were we have plenty of other options to expore before building more roads.

[Hardhatdan]

I beg to differ. What about Mill Creek? That's probably the most pristine park and it's also the most heavily used...

McKinnon didn't have the bare minimum. The whole thing has been scraped down, packed and graded, then covered with a layer of grass... If you peeled back the top, you would see a fully functional road base... That's like saying the road berms for freeway ramps are "the bare minimum" Sorry but that crow won't caw...Mill Creek had a heavy rail line and coal mines, and has trails, bridges, a large parking lot for a very popular swimming pool, damns on the creek, a road that bisects it, houses in it and numerous areas for picnicking, etc.
You might want to rethink that "pristine" thing.

[canucklehead2]

For the last bloody time, if we are going to define pristine, what I meant was undisturbed. Even with its previous incarnation's which I am FULLY aware, of btw, it hasn't been scraped clean, smoothed down and then reseeded with grass. Maybe the word naturalized is more appropriate than pristine, since as we know from The Simpsons, pristine can also be used to define median strips and highway embankments...

[Hardhatdan]

I agree with you on that. Mill Creek is more of an active corridor compared to McKinnon but then again so is a heavily patrolled, sterile mall vs. a sidewalk...
McKinnon/Gov't House Park is part of the most heavily used stretch of the Valley and guess what that is...oh you will like this...River Valley Road. I don't know if that makes your point about running a road up McKinnon, but outside of Mill Creek Pool, McKinnon and River Valley Road tend to be far busier.
How do I know? When I was just a boy, I worked with the Park Rangers and I got to do "user surveys" throughout the River Valley...where did we like to set up shop when we needed a bunch? You guessed it, River Valley Road and Government House Park.

[Daveography]

Here's another perspective, let's do what Hamilton has done:

Why have this:
http://aiva.ca/images/031207625.jpg
(http://www.aiva.ca/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=L00405)

When you can have this?
http://www.waterkeeper.ca/images/redhillexpress.jpg
(http://www.waterkeeper.ca/content/fish/red_hill_foes_still_fighting.php)

Before:
http://www.myhamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/8C620DC0-3882-48AD-94E6-FB043CFCA486/17007/new2.jpg
(http://www.myhamilton.ca/myhamilton/CityandGovernment/ProjectsInitiatives/RedHill/index.htm)

After:
http://www.onthighways.com/Hamilton/RHVP_front.jpg
(http://www.onthighways.com/)

Ahh, that's much better! Edmonton, take note! You don't need greenspaces! You need MOAR ROADS! Why enjoy a park when you can enjoy a scenic drive? Why have picnic spaces when you can drive right through them? Why have trees and grass when shaving a few minutes off your commute reduces idling somehow?

(above photos borrowed from this thread (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=149202&page=3))

[canucklehead2]

Comparing something built in Hamilton to highway specs is very different building something to Groat Road or even Wayne Gretzky. And you guys are acting like it's all or nothing, black and white. Like you must have either a jogging path or a River Valley Road. But last time I checked they both existed, and even if the latter was doubled in size there would still be space for both just like in Calgary where a Memorial Drive peacefully co-exists with the most heavily used stretch of pathway in the city right along the river...

[newfangled]

^ River Valley Road and Groat are nothing like Mckinnon Ravine. Look at the way they are used and the people who use them. Better yet, go down there and actually use them.

They're all good, but they're completely different, and we really don't need to make Mckinnon more like the other two.

Once you run a road through there the current use of the park is gone. It doesn't matter if it's a superexpressway, two lanes each way, or one lane each way. A roadway through a park is a roadway through a park. So talking about limited access roads, or a small road like Groat - why bother?

[Daveography]

There isn't much difference between this road in Hamilton to Groat:
- Both are built through a ravine
- Both have interchanges
- Both are four lanes much of the way

Sounds pretty similar to what you're proposing.

And frankly, it is "all or nothing". This ravine would not be the same with a road running through it, period. The look, feel, and peacefulness of it would disappear. Count how many people walk or jog through the ravine, compared to how many do so along Groat. Both have pathways, but that does not make them equal.

And for what gain would your new road be? Tell me how paving a road through a beautiful, highly used park-lined ravine enhance the lives of Edmontonians? By improving traffic flow? Reducing idling?

Historically, traffic does not flow like water, but rather it fills space like a gas. Open a new road and it will be bumper-to-bumper just like the existing routes. And then you've given up a beautiful greenspace to get exactly where you were before.

And even if it did improve traffic, would the quality of life here really be better because of it? Do cities with more traffic congestion than Edmonton, such as Vancouver, suffer in quality of life because of it?

I'm no expert, I'll be the first to admit that. But from my perspective, the cost-benefit analysis does not add up.

[S_B_Russell]

Paving over the river valley is 60s thinking. We need to keep the ravines as parks - it's part of what makes living in E-town so nice.

[Kevin_foster]

Bears.

Add them.

[newfangled]

^ Careful now. We don't want a freakin' bear jaboree around here.

So one distinction I think it's worth making is that a multi-use trail definitely can work right next to a roadway.

People will jog or bike along Groat or Rivervalley Road or the highlevel or Mckinnon. But Mckinnon is the only one of those where you'll see people relaxing and playing.

Mckinnon/Govt House aren't really multi-use trails - they're parks.

So we should be comparing Mckinnon to other parks like Hawrelak. Can we fit a cloverleaf on the pond in Hawrelak? I'm sure that would be great for traffic, and it wouldn't change the park at all, right?

[SHOFEAR]

Paving over the river valley is 60s thinking. .

as are downtown malls, covered pedestrian streets and multi block mega projects.

Should fit right in.

[S_B_Russell]

as are downtown malls, covered pedestrian streets and multi block mega projects.

Should fit right in.

Ha!

[canucklehead2]

Monorail, Monorail, Monorail!!

Seriously though, I am glad people are passionate about the Edmonton River Valley because it does need to be protected and kept as clean as possible, however there are certain times when development of public projects like roadways should take place. That was my point. And since it has already been disturbed beyond its natural state, you might as well go all the way with a road if it could do some good, thats all.

In case I didnt say it earlier, nice pics...

[Harrison]

^ We're stinkin nimby's.

McKinnon isn't pristine, but it sure leads into a very pristine area :)

I would settle, at minimum, for a viaduct :)

if you want pristine, go to Whitemud Creek! Reminds me of quadding up north near Fort McMurray. NOW THAT'S NATURE