Urban vs suburban as % of overall growth

[Boquillas]

In light of some recent disputes, I found myself thinking about a question--

What exactly are the rates of growth for suburban developments (residential and retail) versus urban growth/renewal etc. within each city in Texas?

It occurs to me that there are few to no posts of projects outside the urban cores of most TX cities except for San Antonio. This selective omission shields cities with highly visible urban centers (Dallas, Houston) from the kind of scrutiny vis a vis suburban developments that San Antonio receives because of its lone diligent, if overzealous researcher.

I understand the TX megacities have suburban projects within their greater metros far too numerous to catalog, but some idea exists of the scale of these projects, right? And surely their scale far outpaces urban/central core development, but I would like to know by how much. Because it is that ratio that matters. After all, Houston's or Dallas' urban redevelopment projects are going to be more numerous than San Antonio's or Austin's-- but as a percentage of overall development, including suburban, where do they rank?

Any figures?

And let's all be civil.

[Trae]

I think it would be hard to figure something like this out. There are so many suburban developments in Houston and Dallas. They include neighborhoods and little regional shopping centers (with your typical Walmart, Target, etc). They just don't get the light because they don't need to.

I mean, I could flood this entire section with suburban developments in Houston, but why would I when there is so much going on in the inner city?

[Boquillas]

I agree- but in terms of determining the pace of true urbanist enterprise in Texas it would be useful to know, especially considering the phenomenal growth all over the state.

[sirkingwilliam]

It occurs to me that there are few to no posts of projects outside the urban cores of most TX cities except for San Antonio. This selective omission shields cities with highly visible urban centers (Dallas, Houston) from the kind of scrutiny vis a vis suburban developments that San Antonio receives because of its lone diligent, if overzealous researcher.

All you need to do is visit their stand alone forums (HAIF.com and DallasMetropolis.com?), there you will find plenty of suburban development discussion.

And let's all be civil.

Let us hope.

[sirkingwilliam]

I mean, I could flood this entire section with suburban developments in Houston, but why would I when there is so much going on in the inner city?

That's why I contained all the San Antonio suburban and metro developments in one thread with updates. You know, the thing you thought you should do for Houston. :yes:

Though I think this idea, no offense to Boquillas, is not going to work.

[Trae]

^^Yeah, I did think about that last year, but decided not to. It was a bad idea.

All you need to do is visit their stand alone forums (HAIF.com and DallasMetropolis.com?), there you will find plenty of suburban development discussion.

That is because there are designated sections for those suburbs. They also do not dominate the forums over there. On an urban forum like SSP, suburban developments are not very popular.

Growth in the suburbs is happening. You can't ignore, and on a local forum, they are going to be in the light more.

[sirkingwilliam]

That is because there are designated sections for those suburbs. They also do not dominate the forums over there. On an urban forum like SSP, suburban developments are not very popular.

But suburban dinosaur parks are? There are so many non-skyscraper, non-development type posts that get posted in this forum as well as other cities forums it puzzles me why suburban development posts get singled out? This has become a forum for city discussion of all aspects.

Growth in the suburbs is happening. You can't ignore, and on a local forum, they are going to be in the light more.

Yes, and SSP is kind of like San Antonio's local forum because there isn't a HAIF for SA, at least not yet.

[Trae]

The dinosaur-themed amusement park is larger than Fiesta Texas, and is Houston's first theme park since Astroworld was closed. I guess you could say that is a suburban development, but you do not see threads made for new "town centers", etc., from many of the other Texas cities (mainly Houston and Dallas). There are like three new HEB's by my house, but there is really no need to post them here, because there are developments like BLVD Place in Uptown that are really bringing some upscale retail to Houston.

And you should make an SA forum. I don't think there is a local SA forum. Go to Forumer.com, and you can start one from scratch (it can be IPB or some other software they have).

[sirkingwilliam]

The dinosaur-themed amusement park is larger than Fiesta Texas, and is Houston's first theme park since Astroworld was closed.

Who cares how big it is, if you're going to complain about suburban sprawl threads, don't post a thread about a Dinosaur Park being built some 30 miles from Houston. And how is something yet to even break dirt, bigger than Fiesta Texas?

I guess you could say that is a suburban development, but you do not see threads made for new "town centers", etc., from many of the other Texas cities (mainly Houston and Dallas).

Haven't I already stated that those projects are covered on seperated forums focused entirely on those cities and suburbs? SA doesn't have one so the projects are posted here. If you dislike them, don't click on them and don't respond to them.

There are like three new HEB's by my house, but there is really no need to post them here, because there are developments like BLVD Place in Uptown that are really bringing some upscale retail to Houston.

So why not post about all developments happening in the area? No one's posting about individual HEB's opening up, but if its part of a large retail center, why not post about it. Who are you to act houlier than thou?

[Trae]

Who cares how big it is, if you're going to complain about suburban sprawl threads, don't post a thread about a Dinosaur Park being built some 30 miles from Houston. And how is something yet to even break dirt, bigger than Fiesta Texas?

I didn't post that thread.

Haven't I already stated that those projects are covered on seperated forums focused entirely on those cities and suburbs? SA doesn't have one so the projects are posted here. If you dislike them, don't click on them and don't respond to them.

That's fine.

So why not post about all developments happening in the area? No one's posting about individual HEB's opening up, but if its part of a large retail center, why not post about it. Who are you to act houlier than thou?

Those HEB's are actually apart of larger suburban retail centers. There is also nothing wrong with posting those suburban developments. They just are not as popular here. Also, Austin doesn't have a local forum...

[sirkingwilliam]

I didn't post that thread.

But you voluntarly posted in it, joyously I might add.


Those HEB's are actually apart of larger suburban retail centers. There is also nothing wrong with posting those suburban developments. They just are not as popular here.

So because something isn't popular, you shouldn't do it? Sorry, that doesn't jive with me. If it were against the rules, that's another thing.

Austin doesn't have a local forum...

Which is why a few of their suburban developments get posted here. Thought they don't have as many going on as SA especially to the degree of "announced" projects in recent weeks and months.

[Trae]

But you voluntarly posted in it, joyously I might add.

Yeah, that theme park is going to be great.

So because something isn't popular, you shouldn't do it? Sorry, that doesn't jive with me. If it were against the rules, that's another thing.

There just isn't real need for it. Most of the development news posted about SA is happening from 410 on out. Once you get so many threads on those suburban developments, it just gets kind of "boring". The dinosaur-themed amusement park is something different.

[Boquillas]

I'm not talking about itemized lists of projects-- I'm talking raw numbers of exurban/suburban nos. in both residential and retail versus urban nos. in the same city.
Also, changes in those ratios over time.

For instance (fake nos.)--
TX city X saw metro population nos. outside the central city increase by 18,000 in 2006 and added 1 mil sq. ft of retail/mixed use, while in the central city, pop increased by 3,000 and added 150,000 sq. ft of retail/mixed use. A 6 to 1 ratio in overall pop growth suburban/urban and 20 to 1 in retail/mixed use. Or, as a percentage of raw pop growth/relocation , 85% was suburban, 15% was urban. This compared to 2003, where the ratio was 95% suburban, 5% urban. That kind of thing... I guess.

[sirkingwilliam]

Yeah, that theme park is going to be great.

And there's nothing wrong with that. Wouldn't you hate it if you got grief for posting in that thread or for thinking the part would be great and wonderful? Wouldn't that kind of suck?



There just isn't real need for it. Most of the development news posted about SA is happening from 410 on out. Once you get so many threads on those suburban developments, it just gets kind of "boring". The dinosaur-themed amusement park is something different.

Boring to you, probably, but that has more to do with you not living here. Seeing things from the outside in. Though it is funny how your tune changed when you did come to SA and saw some of it. I believe you said it had opened your eyes and made you change your mind about San Antonio for the better, etc, etc? So now you're singing a different tune?

[sirkingwilliam]

I'm not talking about itemized lists of projects-- I'm talking raw numbers of exurban/suburban nos. in both residential and retail versus urban nos. in the same city.
Also, changes in those ratios over time.

For instance (fake nos.)--
TX city X saw metro population nos. outside the central city increase by 18,000 in 2006 and added 1 mil sq. ft of retail/mixed use, while in the central city, pop increased by 3,000 and added 150,000 sq. ft of retail/mixed use. A 6 to 1 ratio in overall pop growth suburban/urban and 20 to 1 in retail/mixed use. Or, as a percentage of raw pop growth/relocation , 85% was suburban, 15% was urban. This compared to 2003, where the ratio was 95% suburban, 5% urban. That kind of thing... I guess.

I honestly think you're asking for too much. Where is anyone going to get the retail figures? What are the definition of suburban versus central city?

[Trae]

And there's nothing wrong with that. Wouldn't you hate it if you got grief for posting in that thread or for thinking the part would be great and wonderful? Wouldn't that kind of suck?

I guess. I think more people got annoyed with the amount of SA suburban development threads going into the forum and how little (or at least it seemed) urban development was going up.

Boring to you, probably, but that has more to do with you not living here. Seeing things from the outside in. Though it is funny how your tune changed when you did come to SA and saw some of it. I believe you said it had opened your eyes and made you change your mind about San Antonio for the better, etc, etc? So now you're singing a different tune?
You know when you have that really fun night with that fine girl? You then say "baby, your the best I ever had." You know? Then a few weeks later an even BETTER girl comes around? That's what I felt with SA. It was nice when I was there, but then I came back to Houston and just started going "who cares" towards new SA developments. :)

[sirkingwilliam]

You know when you have that really fun night with that fine girl? You then say "baby, your the best I ever had." You know? Then a few weeks later an even BETTER girl comes around? That's what I felt with SA. It was nice when I was there, but then I came back to Houston and just started going "who cares" towards new SA developments. :)

That'd example would work if the second girl was someone you had never met, but dude, you live in Houston, or at least your parents do so you go where they go, so it's not like you had never seen Houston before seeing San Antonio. Why you can never actually give San Antonio credit for anything and always have to make thing s a competition is what's really annoying (^). Of course you will ask for an example. Don't worry, there's one in this thread.

[Boquillas]

I also thinks it's a tall order. Which kind of proves a point about the futility of arguments concerning a given city's sprawl-- when it goes unreported in other metros, comparisons are utterly pointless, suffice it to say that no Texas city is a model of urbanism--yet-- despite commendable urban projects in all of the bigger cities. So, in a way, my question was a bit rhetorical. However, I daresay that the cities in Texas with the largest urban cores are still no doubt the biggest suburban offenders-- it's all about scale-- and if their %s of suburban growth outpace interior "urban" growth, then no amount of city-center growth is redeemed by exponential growth in exurban and suburban car-dependent developments.

[Trae]

That'd example would work if the second girl was someone you had never met, but dude, you live in Houston, or at least your parents do so you go where they go, so it's not like you had never seen Houston before seeing San Antonio. Why you can never actually give San Antonio credit for anything and always have to make thing s a competition is what's really annoying (^). Of course you will ask for an example. Don't worry, there's one in this thread.

I give SA credit. I did when I was over there :). SA is booming is what I was saying and I have more respect since I could really see the growth and to good amount of mid-rises in the suburbs.

[KevinFromTexas]

I'm not talking about itemized lists of projects-- I'm talking raw numbers of exurban/suburban nos. in both residential and retail versus urban nos. in the same city.
Also, changes in those ratios over time.

For instance (fake nos.)--
TX city X saw metro population nos. outside the central city increase by 18,000 in 2006 and added 1 mil sq. ft of retail/mixed use, while in the central city, pop increased by 3,000 and added 150,000 sq. ft of retail/mixed use. A 6 to 1 ratio in overall pop growth suburban/urban and 20 to 1 in retail/mixed use. Or, as a percentage of raw pop growth/relocation , 85% was suburban, 15% was urban. This compared to 2003, where the ratio was 95% suburban, 5% urban. That kind of thing... I guess.

Unfortunately one big box store outside of downtown can equal the same amount of retail space in an entire district in downtown. For instance. In Austin the new 2nd Street District has about 245,000 square feet of retail space. That's great, urban, 32 foot wide sidewalks. Sidewalk cafes, nice store fronts. Bicycle racks and park benches. But add one supercenter Wal-mart outside of downtown and you've easily matched it with a single project.

There just isn't real need for it. Most of the development news posted about SA is happening from 410 on out. Once you get so many threads on those suburban developments, it just gets kind of "boring". The dinosaur-themed amusement park is something different.


No one says you have to read about it.

Anyway, you guys are already getting off topic from Boquillas' original question. If you guys want to argue, then take it to private messages.

[sirkingwilliam]

I also thinks it's a tall order. Which kind of proves a point about the futility of arguments concerning a given city's sprawl-- when it goes unreported in other metros, comparisons are utterly pointless, suffice it to say that no Texas city is a model of urbanism--yet-- despite commendable urban projects in all of the bigger cities. So, in a way, my question was a bit rhetorical. However, I daresay that the cities in Texas with the largest urban cores are still no doubt the biggest suburban offenders-- it's all about scale-- and if their %s of suburban growth outpace interior "urban" growth, then no amount of city-center growth is redeemed by exponential growth in exurban and suburban car-dependent developments.

I agree. A perfect example is Dallas. In Flower Mound there's an intersection (2499/407?) that has something like 2 million square feet of retail in I believe three different and recent corner developments.

[sirkingwilliam]

I think it's funny when people ask why there isn't more store front retail in downtown San Antonio. Duh, because there's a over 1 million square foot mall downtown.

[Trae]

I wish that mall was spread out among DT San Antonio streets.

[sirkingwilliam]

I wish that mall was spread out among DT San Antonio streets.

It was built in the 80's. Had a retail center of that size been built today downtown, it'd be more urban in design and integrate with the streets, etc.

[Boquillas]

Unfortunately one big box store outside of downtown can equal the same amount of retail space in an entire district in downtown. For instance. In Austin the new 2nd Street District has about 245,000 square feet of retail space. That's great, urban, 32 foot wide sidewalks. Sidewalk cafes, nice store fronts. Bicycle racks and park benches. But add one supercenter Wal-mart outside of downtown and you've easily matched it with a single project.





That's pretty much my point, in a roundabout way. Suburban developments are not limited by block sizes on existing city grids, or the square footage of existing buildings. It's very difficult to get a handle on the nightmarish scale of suburban development--there is no suitable tit for tat means of comparison to urban growth, and thus arguments as to the degree one city has developed suburb-wise versus central core-wise bear no fruit.

[Trae]

It was built in the 80's. Had a retail center of that size been built today downtown, it'd be more urban in design and integrate with the streets, etc.

Yeah. Still not too late for that to happen at all. As long as residential keeps up with it.

[sirkingwilliam]

Yeah. Still not too late for that to happen at all. As long as residential keeps up with it.

Another 1 million square plus retail center? I doubt it.

[Trae]

Another 1 million square plus retail center? I doubt it.

Yeah your right. Not that much retail.