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SteelTown

Nov 22, 2007, 12:29 PM

Mac steps up downtown search

Wade Hemsworth
The Hamilton Spectator
(Nov 22, 2007)

McMaster University has identified three other downtown sites for a major new family health centre, but continues to court Hamilton's public school board in the hope of making a deal on the keystone property where the board's headquarters now stands.

The university is not disclosing its alternative locations, but the list does not include previously identified contingencies immediately behind City Hall and at McMaster's own continuing education centre in the former county courthouse at Main and Hughson streets.

Meanwhile, the university and David Braley -- the benefactor who has put $10 million toward a new family medicine centre -- stepped up their courtship of the school board this week, in advance of two board meetings that will deal with the subject early next month.

In separate conversations with education director Chris Spence, they emphasized McMaster's readiness to consider options that could see the university and the board work together, possibly in a single building.

Braley said he considers the project so important that he is prepared to buy the property personally and will even consider financing the building if necessary.

"The most important thing is that we're looking after people who need a family doctor," he said in an interview.

The university's plan is designed to solve two problems: to build a major new multidisciplinary training centre for a growing number of family doctors and other clinicians, and to provide primary medical care for as many as 15,000 patients.

The university needs at least 100,000 square feet -- roughly the same floor space occupied by the Canadian Warplane Heritage Museum in Glanbrook.

The centre could see as many as 75,000 visits per year. Braley and the university hope those visits and related activities would also help with a third challenge: invigorating Hamilton's blighted core.

The school board, meanwhile, is considering which of six options it will pursue for seven of its administrative buildings across the city, including its Education Centre, set on a property with exposures on King, Main and Bay streets.

Ideas on the table range from selling the headquarters property and moving to the Mountain to keeping the 1967 building and adding to it. Among the issues are cost, the effect of leaving downtown and the architectural significance of the present building.

The board is to meet in camera Dec. 3 when it will discuss funding scenarios that could be attached to those options. It is to debate the issue publicly Dec. 10.

Meanwhile, with medical students already in the system who are destined for specialty in the expanding family-medicine program, and McMaster already straining its existing facilities, expansion must be complete by 2010, said David Price, chair of family medicine at the DeGroote School of Medicine.

"That train has left the station and it's well down the track," he said.

Given that it would take two years to design and build a facility, the university needs to secure a site within the next year, he said. McMaster wants a property with easy access to bus routes that would carry patients from every part of the city.

The university's proposal for the centre was revealed in late June when Braley donated $50 million to McMaster's medical school, including $10 million in seed money for the project. Braley said he hopes the university and school board can work out a mutually beneficial plan.

"This is the place where it should be," he said.

Spence said his job is to make sure trustees understand McMaster's intentions as they consider their "incredibly difficult" decision.

"When all is said and done, we've got some issues that we have to address. I absolutely believe that has to be the driver for the decision-making," he said.

"But we're also part of a community. We don't work in isolation. We're not an island. That's why it's important that they get all those pieces. That's not to push them in one direction or the other, but it's in fairness to them that they get all the information."

raisethehammer

Nov 22, 2007, 12:35 PM

good! let's hope this search includes some of the mega-empty lots downtown instead of perfectly good buildings.

DC83

Nov 22, 2007, 1:25 PM

good! let's hope this search includes some of the mega-empty lots downtown instead of perfectly good buildings.

Exactly!!

Ideas on the table range from selling the headquarters property and moving to the Mountain to keeping the 1967 building and adding to it. Among the issues are cost, the effect of leaving downtown and the architectural significance of the present building.

Here's a crazy idea... I know it's Hamilton afterall... but why not KEEP the existing building which has unique architectural significance (esp in a city like Hamilton) and build in the huge empty lot behind it (King/Bay)!?!

Am I the only one who thinks this makes the most sense???

raisethehammer

Nov 22, 2007, 1:37 PM

I've wondered all along why they don't do that. they have a TON of prime land there.

SteelTown

Nov 22, 2007, 10:06 PM

I know Braley has started to spend his millions at McMaster already. At my lab, which we got $15 million, is starting construction soon for a stem cell library. It's gonna be cool with the robotic machineries (cost $7 million alone), the only one in Canada.

raisethehammer

Nov 22, 2007, 10:17 PM

I saw the sign today at Innovation Park.
Looks like a 2 or 3 storey building being built.
Can't wait till it starts.

SteelTown

Dec 9, 2007, 5:36 PM

The board is to meet in camera Dec. 3 when it will discuss funding scenarios that could be attached to those options. It is to debate the issue publicly Dec. 10.

Tomorrow we will find out what the School Board is leaning towards.

raisethehammer

Dec 9, 2007, 6:39 PM

here's hoping!!

DC83

Dec 9, 2007, 6:42 PM

Predictions Anyone?
I hate to be a negative nelly, but I'm going to say the HWDSB leaves for that crazy development land we call Turner Park (Upper Wellington/Rymal area).

I really really want them to stick around downtown, but if they do, chances are it'll mean tearing down the current HWDSB Bldg :(

So I guess it's a lose-lose situation!?

the dude

Dec 9, 2007, 6:54 PM

i have zero faith in the school board making a good decision. they're in the business of making money and saving money. they're robots.

i still say one of the lots adjacent to the continuing ed building would be best. it is a good question, though, as to why they won't just build on the lot behind the board of ed. perhaps the board is asking for too much. i thought i'd heard that braley wants the whole thing and then to build a hotel on that vacant lot. we shall see.

SteelTown

Dec 9, 2007, 6:57 PM

I say McMaster will win it's just up to the School Board to get a storefront size or share the office space with McMaster. Ultimately I think the School Board will keep all of its administration office in the downtown with McMaster. McMaster, or more like Braley, will pay extra to cover the cost of an underground parking garage. That's the stumbling point for the School Board, cost associated with an underground parking garage, it's cheaper to relocate up on the Mountain and have a giant surface lot for parking.

DC83

Dec 11, 2007, 7:06 PM

Public input sought in new education centre
Dec, 11 2007 - 6:00 AM

HAMILTON (AM900 CHML) - Trustees with the Hamilton Public School Board are now looking for the public's input as it tries to come up with a plan for a new education centre.Seven options are on the table.

The cheapest option would be to build a new facility on the mountain.

But many trustees have indicated they'd like to stay in the downtown core.

Staff has been asked to come up with a business plan for one building to amalgamate all the board offices.

A public meeting will be held on January 10th.

http://900chml.com/news/news_local.cfm?cat=7428981912&rem=81351&red=80198123aPBIny&wids=410&gi=1&gm=news_local.cfm

raisethehammer

Dec 11, 2007, 10:01 PM

might as well enjoy attending all these public meetings before they move to a location in the middle of suburbia that nobody can get to.
what a pathetic excuse for 'educational experts'.

SteelTown

Dec 11, 2007, 11:12 PM

Board seeks public input on ed. centre

Rob Faulkner
The Hamilton Spectator
(Dec 11, 2007)

Hamilton's public school board last night asked staff to make a business case for a one-building option for a new education centre.

But, instead of endorsing one of seven options up for debate, they left the door open for input from public delegations on the matter Jan. 10 and city hall's thoughts on the matter.

Last night, nearly all of the debate on options for 100 Main St. W. was done in a private session. But when trustees emerged, they let slip that staff prefer "the $33-million option" and that it is for a new building.

Among the options on the table, the cheapest was to have the board headquarters leave downtown for a new, $33-million building on the Mountain.

The board sees itself at a crossroads, with old buildings in need of repair, and too many administrative staff to fit in 100 Main St. W. Staff last night were looking for permission to develop a plan for their preferred option: a single building, with a downtown presence. It doesn't imply the building will be built downtown.

Previously, board director of education Chris Spence raised the idea of erecting a kiosk or storefront run by the board downtown, but a new building elsewhere.

Trustee Laura Peddle got board support to ask staff to amend the wording of their recommendation: instead of asking them to research their favourite option, she wants them to present a business case for their preference, but also summarize other options available.

The original four options brought forward by staff are: renovate all seven buildings; build one new building elsewhere; build two buildings, one downtown, one elsewhere; or renovate and expand 100 Main St. W.

This fall, trustees asked for two variations, and Spence, absent last night, raised the idea of a storefront downtown presence.

Peddle said staff can't "expect success" if all they bring forward at meetings is their favourite option, without explaining why other options are being discarded.

Interim superintendent of business Dennis Webb said allowing staff to research an option doesn't bind the board to only one option, but lets staff approach the Ministry of Education for financial advice.

If you want to be a delegation to the special committee of the whole meeting on Jan. 10 at 5:30 p.m., direct requests to Chris Spence via e-mail at kelsey.crawford@hwdsb.on.ca.

SteelTown

Jan 4, 2008, 12:20 PM

A fight to save a landmark
Petition favours preserving downtown education centre

January 04, 2008
Rob Faulkner
The Hamilton Spectator

A retired high school teacher is leading a petition to save the Hamilton public school board's education centre from the wrecking ball.

Ancaster's Bob Philip, 71, taught in local high schools, went to McMaster University and has kept an eye on both during his retirement.

With 112 signatures, he hopes to convince public board trustees to save architect Joseph Singer's 1967 ivory tower at Main and Bay, as the board contemplates moving to the Mountain.

"The building is a landmark building, and it's an indication to people that education is important," Philip said of the site at the western edge of downtown.

He plans to present comments from the petition (at ipetitions.com/petition/Education-Centre) at a meeting 5:30 p.m. Thursday on the future of the education centre.

"We were after quality input. The numbers didn't bother us," Philip said of the three-week-old petition. Strip multiple and anonymous entries and his petition has about 90 names.

Hamilton's public school board sees itself at a crossroads, with a headquarters that needs repairs, and administrators scattered across the city at former school sites.

Last month, trustees told staff to study a plan for a new single-building headquarters. Staff appear to favour a $33-million building on the Mountain, but must still share plans with trustees for final approval.

Philip said the board and Mac are taking the "wrong" approach. He thinks board staff could fill old schools emptying from declining enrolment, and that Mac can locate its future family health centre elsewhere downtown.

City official Gord Moodie, in the downtown renewal division, is expected to address trustees Thursday, to outline how a downtown education centre fits into plans for the city's core.

On Philip's petition, people like Singer the architect, historical tour guide Robin McKee and others argue for the preservation of 100 Main St. W.

The irony is that the board in the 1960s located downtown only with city hall inducements. Singer argues the costs of renovating 100 Main St. W. are too high and must be verified by contractors.

About 250 people work in the building today. The board says it needs space for 604 if it's to close former schools that house administrative staff across the amalgamated school board.

The board will hear public delegations on the education centre at a special committee of the whole meeting at 5:30 p.m. Thursday at 100 Main St. W.

Philip plans to present comments from the petition in his 15-minute address. He notes that, as Hamilton tries to consolidate staff, Toronto District School Board trustees say its centralized mega-board is dysfunctional.

DC83

Jan 4, 2008, 3:29 PM

Here comes another Parking Lot!! YAY!

SteelTown

Jan 9, 2008, 2:37 PM

We'll find out tomorrow what the future holds for the School Board, will we have two major disappointments this week?

raisethehammer

Jan 9, 2008, 2:53 PM

I'm betting on yes.

SteelTown

Jan 9, 2008, 7:17 PM

Now if Mayor Fred had any shred of leadership he would talk about relocating the Public Health department to the current School Board building and let McMaster and the School Board work together on a new building together so each can save money.

But my expectations are low.

SteelTown

Jan 10, 2008, 12:25 PM

Trustees to learn about new option
Downtown block would include school board HQ

January 10, 2008
Rob Faulkner
SPECIAL TO The Hamilton Spectator

Board chair Judith Bishop says the Hamilton-Wentworth District School Board faces a "conundrum" in deciding what to do with its Education Centre.

Because Ontario won't fund administrative space, the board feels it must sell land at Main and Bay, and in Ancaster, to pay for new headquarters.

But Bishop is eager to hear a city proposal -- at a meeting of public delegations at 5:30 p.m. today at 100 Main St. W. -- that adds a new twist to the options trustees must consider.

City staff are scheduled to present an option that would put McMaster's family medicine centre, the school board, city public health and two private hotels on a redeveloped Hamilton Education Square at King, Main and Bay.

"It is added pressure," Bishop said of competing outside visions for what the board should do.

She said the cheapest option at $33 million is to build a new ed centre on the board-owned Jerome site, a site large enough for a headquarters and future high school southwest of the Linc and Upper Wellington.

Hamilton's public school board sees itself at a crossroads, with a headquarters that needs repairs, and administrators scattered across the city at old, converted former school sites.

Bishop said most trustees want to stay downtown but know they have to be "fiscally responsible." She expects criticism if the board builds any new headquarters when schools need repairs.

Tonight represents the first full public meeting for delegates wanting input into the board's plans. The six present- ers represent downtown businesses, residents hoping to save the Education Centre, city hall, parents in the board and a board staff union.

Board staff are putting together a proposal for trustees for a single-building concept. What that means is unclear. Bishop said it doesn't imply a single new building on the Mountain, and may mean a shared site downtown.

She said one possibility is that the board sell part of its 100 Main St. W. site -- with McMaster being the first public body to have a chance to buy it -- and then share the cost of building underground parking if its surface lot is sold.

David Price, chair of family medicine at McMaster, said the university's plans for a $30-million to $50-million family medicine centre are awaiting a school board decision on its "wonderful location."

"It's a wonderful location but, just as when you find a wonderful house, there are times when that house is not for sale," said Price, who hopes to find a downtown site for Mac this year.

Pressure is mounting to grow medical residency spaces at Mac over the next two to five years in anticipation of a wave of physician retirements, he said.

He calls tonight's city pitch -- that the board, Mac and city public health share space -- "amazing for downtown Hamilton." Trustees will see a gorgeous architects' rendering of the possible complex: lots of glass, modern slanting roofs and insignia emblazoned on the sides of each public party's building.

Director of education Chris Spence said a partnership may be possible, as long as it gives the board enough space. It estimates it needs 128,800 square feet; the city plan has nearly that for the board.

The board now has 291,100 square feet of noninstructional space, scattered over 16 hectares across the city. The sites have $28 million in deferred maintenance and $16 million pending for accessibility and building-code upgrades and other costs.

The board has said that the current centre houses about 250 people, but needs space for 604 if it hopes to close old schools housing administrators.

Spence called the Mountain site "not the most likely path" but it "definitely deserves strong consideration."

He said he believes anything is still possible.

The board will hold a special committee-of-the-whole meeting at 5:30 p.m. Jan. 28 to hear a staff-preferred option for the Education Centre, allowing them time to integrate input from public delegations.

Trustees are expected to vote on it that night.

East-end trustee Ray Mulholland said the board shouldn't go anywhere: He thinks a good audit of required space must be done before the board sells off a $10-million asset at Main and Bay.

"If we make a decision, we shouldn't make that decision only on cost. Location is the most important thing," he said, hoping to stay downtown in the 1967 building designed by Joe Singer.

The new twist

The city is proposing to remake the block bounded by King, Main and Bay into Hamilton Education Square: a cluster of buildings housing the public school board, a new McMaster University family medicine clinic, city public health, two private hotels and more. It would see:

* Separate buildings for various public agencies but shared ancillary space for clinics, community centres, retail

* A shared 600-space underground parking lot

* Two hotels built by the private sector; the city claims private interest is real

* Collaboration on immunization, healthy schools, environmental health

* As required, a lead role for the city's for-profit downtown development corporation, the Hamilton Realty Capital Corporation.

Next steps for the city: Explore redevelopment option with the board, prepare a business plan, have partners review and confirm proposal, present business plan to the board, have the board confirm redevelopment as its referred option.

raisethehammer

Jan 10, 2008, 1:02 PM

just please don't propose a bunch of low-slung, suburban style buildings...their above description about lots of modern glass etc...sounds great.
i guess tonight we see. anyone going? or is this a closed meeting? too many big meetings tonight! Dr Gilbert/ light rail at FRW. big box crap at Aberdeen and this. sheesh.

DC83

Jan 10, 2008, 1:15 PM

^^ They did it purposly so all that we have to pick ONE meeting!! hahaha Damn us and our "special interests" ;)

This plan sounds decent! Better than the plan for the mountain the Spec has an illustration of :s Brutal!

http://www.thespec.com/images/assets/420898_3.JPG
http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/307328

But it doesn't seem as though they plan to save the current HWDSB Bldg at all??? There's a shocker :(

SteelTown

Jan 10, 2008, 1:47 PM

The School Board won't vote on which option to go with until the 28th.

The roof is curvy like a U shape, well I think so. Just think of the Heart research building at the General. The hotels are obviously a high rise and realcity will like that lol. It's not all in one building it's a bunch for each department. Tomorrow we'll probably get a peek of the rendering.

raisethehammer

Jan 10, 2008, 1:49 PM

hey, you've seen the rendering Steeltown??
DC - that rendering above is without a DOUBT the most embarassing thing I've ever seen.
Can you imagine if they go with that option for our citys' school board??? wow! I would intentionally never attend a meeting there...be too embarassed to drive up to such a frickin mess and pretend that I'm going to hear anything intelligent at the meeting.

flar

Jan 10, 2008, 3:15 PM

I'm sure they could all have enough space in a nice 40 storey tower.

raisethehammer

Jan 10, 2008, 3:31 PM

lol...you're right flar. it should be a sizable building though considering all the parties involved. can't wait to see the idea.

realcity

Jan 10, 2008, 3:54 PM

The City should never let the BofEd leave the downtown. That is a big mistake.

I can't wait to see it either. Except I wish it was on a parking lot around John and Rebecca, something to seed that area and shed light on the cockroaches hanging out in the area of the old bus station.

DC83

Jan 10, 2008, 4:00 PM

lol...you're right flar. it should be a sizable building though considering all the parties involved. can't wait to see the idea.

Let's keep our fingers crossed... but I'm pretty pessimistic about the plan since it's quite clear they'll be tearing down the original school board bldg.

And why all the talk about building more hotels?? They'll be a nice big one right across the street (Bay/Main), not to mention the Sheraton.

Why not worry about street-level retail (Staples would make sense since it would be a school board building) and concentrate on pressuring the Connaught consortium to act NOW if hotel space is so desperately needed.

chris k

Jan 10, 2008, 9:53 PM

Im not going to lie, i was extremely excited to hear of this new plan. I think its the best even if it is "suburban style" becuase it keeps everyone downtown with underground parking. What more could you ask for especially with these nuts and that mountain design:koko:

We'll see. Can't wait to see the rendering especially with the lot of glass. Should look great and modern.:cheers:

raisethehammer

Jan 10, 2008, 10:08 PM

I still can't get over that mountain rendering.....it would be hilarious if it wasn't so embarassing.
is this meeting tonight?? I'll be at the light rail meeting.

SteelTown

Jan 10, 2008, 11:19 PM

See the rendering on CH?

5 storey facing Main St and two big towers facing King St.

flar

Jan 10, 2008, 11:24 PM

See the rendering on CH?

5 storey facing Main St and two big towers facing King St.

Sweet! (Now put a shovel in the ground)

raisethehammer

Jan 10, 2008, 11:34 PM

did it look any good? i'm sure it was quick, but any image showing the streetfront? retail at all??

how tall facing King?
how many total buildings? 3?

SteelTown

Jan 10, 2008, 11:36 PM

If the School Board goes along with this I would say the shovel will be on the ground late this year, well definitely the demo. It has to be built by 2010.

SteelTown

Jan 10, 2008, 11:40 PM

did it look any good? i'm sure it was quick, but any image showing the streetfront? retail at all??

how tall facing King?
how many total buildings? 3?

4 buildings. One building at the corner of Bay and Main, school board (5 storey) and kinda looks like the current school board centre. Right next the school board building is the medical centre (5 storey and looks like some parts has 6 storey) and that's all completely glass and ends at Commonwealth Square. So that section of Main St will have a continuous streetfront. There's a courtyard as well.

There was no view from King but you can see one tall building probably 10-15 storey at the corner of King and Bay, unique architect as the back of the building was all curved. Then you meet the back of the medical centre along King and then another tower. That tower seemed to be taller probably 20 storey.

I like having all the towers facing King.

raisethehammer

Jan 10, 2008, 11:42 PM

at the risk of being scolded by goldfinger for being negative (realistic to most others), I doubt shovels will be in the ground this year....don't get me wrong, I hope so, but everything in Hamilton takes waaaaay longer than that. and this project is dealing with Mac, the school board and the city. it would be a new world record if we could get organizations like that to move so quickly.
at any rate, I can't wait to see this rendering. I wonder how tall the King St towers are?

raisethehammer

Jan 10, 2008, 11:43 PM

4 buildings. One building at the corner of Bay and Main, school board (5 storey) and kinda looks like the current school board centre. Right next the school board building is the medical centre (5 storey and looks like some parts has 6 storey) and that's all completely glass and ends at Commonwealth Square. So that section of Main St will have a continuous streetfront. There's a courtyard as well.

There was no view from King but you can see one tall building probably 10-15 storey at the corner of King and Bay. Then you meet the back of the medical centre along King and then another tower. That tower seemed to be taller probably 20 storey.

I like having all the towers facing King.

cool, thanks for the info.
So the Main St part of the project is the guarunteed stuff right? school board and Mac centre.... i assume the two tall towers are the hotels.

SteelTown

Jan 10, 2008, 11:45 PM

^ I edited and added more details. Yes if the School Board approves the plan then yea the Main St part will go ahead.

raisethehammer

Jan 10, 2008, 11:58 PM

sweet. thx.
did they say what Braley's other 3 possible sites are??
i wonder if that 15 storey building you saw back at Bay/King was office space? you said it had a curved glass tower?? doesn't sound like a hotel.

raisethehammer

Jan 11, 2008, 4:12 AM

can we please shut down CH tv? I'm watching this crap now at 11:15 and still nothing on the Mac downtown centre....some guy's garbage dump in Caledonia, gas prices, a boat show etc..... what a waste of time this station is.

SteelTown

Jan 11, 2008, 4:19 AM

That's what you get when you don't watch Dan McLean and his highlighted hair piece!

raisethehammer

Jan 11, 2008, 4:21 AM

I guess so. He's a rock star for sure! lol....ok, off to bed. hopefully the spec has some renderings. CH blows.

SteelTown

Jan 11, 2008, 12:08 PM

http://www.thespec.com/images/assets/421541_3.JPG

SteelTown

Jan 11, 2008, 12:12 PM

City plan includes education centre
But school board to look at other options

January 11, 2008
Rob Faulkner
The Hamilton Spectator

As it tries to decide on the future of its Education Centre, staff at Hamilton's public school board want to see financing details for a new city-proposed Hamilton Education Square project.

The board is trying to decide what to do with its headquarters at 100 Main St. W., a 1967 building that needs millions in repairs and is too small to fit all of the board's non-teaching staff.

City staff last night presented a proposal for the block bounded by King, Main and Bay that would see three public buildings on that site -- the public school board, a new McMaster University family medicine clinic, city public health -- plus two private hotels.

The board had been prepared to see its own staff-recommended option for the future of 100 Main St. W. at a Jan. 28 meeting. As board staff wait to hear more from the city, that date is likely to be missed, manager of planning and accommodation Daryl Sage said.

"We don't need to rush into this big decision," trustee Shirley Glauser said.

The city plan would see the school board sell any land at 100 Main St. W. it doesn't require for a new building there. The Hamilton Realty Capital Corporation, a for-profit agency with city ties, would buy any excess land and develop for Mac and city public health.

The board would be on the corner of Bay and King, public health would be to the south, and Mac would be at Bay and Main. The city says the board could get access to city downtown incentives; board staff wonder if donor David Braley may help financially so the deal happens.

Gord Moodie, co-ordinator of downtown incentives, suggested if the board can sell excess land for $8 million, city programs may chip in an extra $4 million for the joint downtown project.

Trustee Bob Barlow was so eager to hear more that he tried to lift rules on public presentations to ask the city to bring financial details within 30 days. Barlow said renovating 100 Main St. W. is too pricey. The city's plan, presented as trustees heard delegates on the Education Centre, predates the collapsed deal to move city public health from the Right House into the Lister Block, Moodie said.

Trustee Lillian Orban, who wants to retain the existing board headquarters, felt that with Mac and the city proposing a mega-project, it's like people are "ganging up" on the school board.

She asked Tim McCabe, city general manager of planning and economic development, why the city didn't tear down City Hall for the mega-project.

He said Mac's interest in a downtown family medicine centre developed after the debates over City Hall.

Sage said one problem with the joint project is that it doesn't give the board space for its maintenance vehicles as a new site on the Mountain would. It may require a second building, and it would decrease the board's revenue from a land sale at 100 Main St. W. Sage suggested other ideas may be possible. He said board staff may bring forward a recommended option Jan. 28, but if it is the city proposal, it would be done with a caveat to await financing details.

SteelTown

Jan 11, 2008, 12:18 PM

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/dahammer/educationsquare.jpg

raisethehammer

Jan 11, 2008, 12:23 PM

can't really figure this out...is Bay St at the bottom?? looks like 12/13 floors facing King and close to 15 facing Main.
no colour doesn't help, but it looks good. they're using all the land which is nice and building streetwalls on all 3 sides.
Doesn't sound like the board is too interested. How about the one guy saying "where will our maintenance vehicles go"?? sheesh, nothing like being a deadbeat, water-thrower instead of thinking for some solutions for about 7 seconds. That's really an earth shattering problem he's talking about.
did CH have this pic or a colour one?

raisethehammer

Jan 11, 2008, 12:24 PM

by the way, who did up this plan?? the surrounding buildings dont' appear to be Hamilton. hopefully this wasn't just taken from somewhere else.

SteelTown

Jan 11, 2008, 12:35 PM

The bottom street is Main St. The street on the left is Bay St.

DC83

Jan 11, 2008, 12:43 PM

^^ Ya, I can't figure it out, either.
I don't think it IS Hamilton??
If u look at the top left corner, you can see train tracks?? There aren't exposed tracks in this part of the core!?

chris k

Jan 11, 2008, 12:52 PM

Definetly the best idea proposed so far. Not only are we keeping everyone downtown but gettting a buch of new buildings and NO surface parking. I love it how the rendering (Hamilton or not) incorporated nice new buildings aswell as good wildlife. Can't wait to see that final decision.:cheers: :notacrook:

flar

Jan 11, 2008, 12:58 PM

Even though the rendering is quite strange, the school board should go for this. If all these hotel plans come to fruition, someday Hamilton will have more hotels rooms per capita than any city in the world.

Why would the school board need a fleet of maintenance vehicles at their main office? That's something that could go on the mountain, perhaps at a closed school or something. Put all the office people downtown. The last thing downtown needs is a maintenance yard.

DC83

Jan 11, 2008, 1:35 PM

^^ I'm pretty sure they already have a maintenance yard/bldg right beside the Customs House/Workers Heritage Bldg at the Bayfront??

SteelTown

Jan 11, 2008, 1:40 PM

Remember the guys who developed this rendering only had like a week to make some changes like Public Health department. So obviously they focused more on the buildings then the surroundings. You can tell this is for the School Board and others because with another rendering that was showed on CH it showed logos on the side of the building.

Also I wouldn't be surprised if we see office space included with one of those towers, Bratina mentioned a bank has expressed interested and I know another company that's interested as well.

DC83

Jan 11, 2008, 1:47 PM

a bank, eh? Did Laurentian Bank just up and leave the core when it left it's office in the Scarfone-Hawkins Bldg at King/James? Maybe they'll be moving back?

raisethehammer

Jan 11, 2008, 2:12 PM

ahh, I see. if those are the streets as mentioned above then King/Bay is an office tower. the board is going to Bay/King....still doesn't make sense to me though. it says board at Bay/King, public health further south and Mac at Main/Bay.
that's what made me think the bottom street is Bay St...there's 3 distinct buildings along it.
the courtyard looks cool too. i'd hate to lose the board of ed building, but if we do lose it, hopefully it's to a plan like this.

realcity

Jan 11, 2008, 3:07 PM

I like it. And ONLY if the Board stays downtown... I'd say tear it down, at least one parking lot is gone and the dumb lawn around the building.

How could anyone not want to work here? and prefer a wasteland, car dependent sprawl campus on the mountain? They must be baby-boomers. Perhaps they'd be happy if they could somehow make a drive-thru office, they'd never have to leave their SUVs.

DC83

Jan 11, 2008, 3:15 PM

How could anyone not want to work here? and prefer a wasteland, car dependent sprawl campus on the mountain?

b/c there's no drive-thrus... they'd actually have to WALK to get lunch :O W-A-L-K?!?

SteelTown

Jan 14, 2008, 11:53 AM

Rooms to grow: Hamilton's flood of hotel proposals

Steve Buist
The Hamilton Spectator
(Jan 14, 2008)

Unexpectedly, perhaps even inexplicably, Hamilton has suddenly discovered it's become the 'inn' place to be.

After years of suffering from a chronic shortage of hotel space, Hamilton is awash in new proposals and redevelopment plans that could nearly double the city's stock of available hotel rooms.

"It's like rags to riches," said Neil Everson, the city's director of economic development. "I don't really have an explanation for it."

"It's welcome news to us because it has been our Achilles heel for the last number of years," added David Adames, executive director of Tourism Hamilton.

In the past week, three new hotels have been proposed for the lower city.

Two of the new projects, totalling as many as 400 rooms, would be located side by side on the proposed site of Hamilton Education Square, to be situated on the block bounded by King, Bay and Main Streets -- across from the current Sheraton Hotel.

As well, hotelier Oscar Kichi announced that he intends to build a hotel with at least 140 rooms at McMaster University's Innovation Park on Longwood Road South in the city's west end. Kichi already owns and operates the Marriott Courtyard on Upper James Street and the downtown Ramada Plaza, which is currently in the midst of an extensive $5-million renovation.

There are also plans for new hotels at the former Hamilton Motor Products site at the corner of Bay and Main streets, near the corner of Golf Links Road and Stone Church Road in Ancaster's Meadowlands, and a possible Holiday Inn Express at the corner of King and Queen streets.

An eventual reopening of the Royal Connaught hotel is also still in the works, once the current ownership group arranges financing.

"Hotels are just one example of where investors are looking at Hamilton with fresh eyes," said Adames.

He noted that the city may have reached a "tipping point" now that a number of projects have either been proposed or completed, including the innovation park, the education square, McMaster's downtown family health centre and the Red Hill Valley Parkway.

"There's all these good news things coming together and definitely investors are looking at the city," added Adames.

One reason for the unexpected interest could be improving occupancy rates across the province, which have been rebounding since the fallout from the 2003 SARS outbreak.

Hamilton has also been beating the provincial average when it comes to hotel industry standards for average daily rate and revenue per available room.

Another factor, Adames added, is that the city has dedicated staff resources to actively seek out investment opportunities.

Adames said that at present there are close to 900 hotel rooms in the city, but that's a fraction of the 3,600 hotel spaces in London, Ont., or 3,200 rooms in Windsor.

The lack of hotel rooms in Hamilton makes it difficult for the city to attract national and international conventions or sporting events.

"The reason we can't get half the conventions that we'd like is because we don't have the hotel space, and people end up sleeping in Burlington and Brantford," said Everson, "and that really does us no good in terms of economic benefits."

DC83

Jan 14, 2008, 1:45 PM

^^ I still don't get why we're building so many new hotels when we've got a gorgeous old one sitting empty??
I mean, I understand the need for Hotel Space in this city... it was a problem well before the Connaught closed. But I mean there are SO MANY proposals for brand-new, several-hundred room hotels to be built new when there is a perfectly fine building dying to be returned to it's former glory!

coalminecanary

Jan 14, 2008, 1:57 PM

ask liuna

for some reason they can't make it profitable

raisethehammer

Jan 14, 2008, 8:16 PM

markbarbera

Jan 14, 2008, 10:29 PM

I suspect you'll find the renderings vague and lacking in such details. The renderings released to the media are diappointingly vague and look more like stock drawings, seeing as the area surrounding the complex in the drawings doesn't even come close to matching up with existing structures surrounding the proposed site. However, do share whatever you can with us all once you have seen them, We all would love to hear more about this development.

You may be subject to a confidentiality agreement though, particularly if possible tenants/partners haven't firmed up their agreements with the development team.

chris k

Jan 14, 2008, 10:36 PM

Can't wait to see more info on this as is it might currently be my favourite project downtown and personally think it is the best option for this site.

Lets hope the school board makes the right decision and chooses to share the land with these others.
:cheers:

SteelTown

Jan 14, 2008, 11:11 PM

The rendering is a concept well higher than that, basically got the floors right, the location right and square foot. Think back with the CANMET concept plan and now with the recent rendering, it's basically the same just it's more detailed.

Try not to tell too much, like name of Hotel and possible office tenant. I know one office tenant interested but I'm not telling as it could create excitement and then possibly a disappointment in the future. Happens all too often.

the dude

Jan 14, 2008, 11:34 PM

it's ok, we're all used to disappointment.

raisethehammer

Jan 15, 2008, 3:12 AM

it's ok, we're all used to disappointment.

no kidding...I don't expect this project to get built at all. Still, I'll talk about it while it's "alive".

realcity

Jan 16, 2008, 4:14 PM

DC83

Jan 16, 2008, 4:34 PM

Maybe LIUNA should go to the same bankers who are underwriting all these hotels. I thought they could find financial backing?

I thought they were a (positive) part of our community. I guess we're both wrong, realcity! haha

raisethehammer

Jan 27, 2008, 11:32 PM

I saw the renderings/plans for family medice centre. Wow!
Realcity, you would love it. Tons of modern glass, colours etc....more like a Vancouver/Seattle proposal than Hamilton.
Still in concept stage, but so far, so good.
continuous streetwall from the AGH on Main right around to the AGH on King.
Beautiful glass box structure facing Bay acting as an entrance to the courtyard garden.
A rooftop restaurant/lounge in the 15 storey building.
A 15 storey building facing King with a 13-14 storey building facing Main.

matt602

Jan 28, 2008, 2:55 AM

That really sounds too good to be true. Lets all hope it isn't though.

flar

Jan 28, 2008, 3:17 PM

That stretch of king will be a very dense office district and really give a big city feel. West end of downtown: concrete and glass. Middle: great public square in Gore park. East end of downtown: village feel.

SteelTown

Jan 28, 2008, 8:12 PM

woohoo! I'm getting a detailed, inside look at the plans for this site done up by the city in the next week or so.
I'll try to get some more renderings and more specific info - hotel names, sq footage etc....

And where's the renderings mister?!

I've seen them but I would like to see them again, again, again and again lol

raisethehammer

Jan 28, 2008, 8:29 PM

sorry...couldn't take any copies! They looked great though. WAY better than that crappy black/white version the Spec had. More detail and colour.

SteelTown

Jan 29, 2008, 4:46 AM

Board narrows education centre options

January 28, 2008
BY ROB FAULKNER

Hamilton’s public school board voted last night to drop renovation as an option for its downtown Education Centre at Main and Bay.

The board, faced with scattered administrators in aging buildings, asked staff to present business plans for just two options at an April meeting.

Option one has lasted throughout the entire discussion of what to do with the headquarters and six other sites that house non-teaching staff.

It’s a $33-million plan to take the board out of the core and see it build a new headquarters for 600 or so administrative staff on the Jerome site, a treed plot the board owns southwest of the Linc and Upper Wellington.

Option two is one that only surfaced this month, as City of Hamilton staff proposed an Education Square redevelopment of the entire block where the board now sits.

It would include a McMaster University family medicine centre, City of Hamilton public health offices, two private hotels and the board.

The city has not yet presented the board with a business plan, so its cost is unclear.

A board staff report tabled Monday night stated that “retaining and renovating the current building is not a cost-effective option” despite its popularity with delegates at a recent meeting for public input and some trustees.

Staff say renovation could cost $65 million.

Trustees Ray Mulholland and Lillian Orban both opposed the motion, which didn’t preserve the ivory-hued landmark architect Joe Singer built in 1967.

Trustee Karen Turkstra abstained.

Daryl Sage, manager of planning and accommodation, said staff weigh three questions to narrow options: capital costs, operational efficiencies and long-term costs.

After 11 months of work on the issue, trustees had few questions.

Orban asked about the cost and agricultural zoning of the Jerome option.

Staff said the building would cost $22 million, with $11 million for extras like site work, taxes and design; and rezoning should not be a problem.

Turkstra asked if building a big training space is worthwhile instead of renting.

Minutes later board chair Judith Bishop asked to move in camera.

Bishop told media it dealt with contracts in the joint Mac campus, not private talk about touchy public matters.

“You should see this as an indication of our seriousness,” she said.

flar

Jan 29, 2008, 5:05 AM

Board of Education building R.I.P.

They better go for the city's downtown option...

DC83

Jan 29, 2008, 11:56 AM

Board of Education building R.I.P.

They better go for the city's downtown option...

ask if I'm surprised? Do demolishers have a crazy amount of Lobbyists at City Hall or what??

SteelTown

Jan 29, 2008, 12:31 PM

Staff said the building would cost $22 million, with $11 million for extras like site work, taxes and design; and rezoning should not be a problem.

Assumed wrong....if they don't go along with the downtown plan you can guarantee super slow progress at City Hall for approval, if any approval.

But anyways McMaster can now move forward with planning a medicine centre at the School board site. We're probably looking at a demo late this year or early next year. Needs to be constructed and completed by 2010.

markbarbera

Jan 29, 2008, 2:29 PM

I am very disappointed in McMaster if this is the case. They are proceeding with a demolition of a building of architectural significance without even exploring the possibility of incorporating it into the entire site plans. This new, indifferent attiude towards existing architecture does not bode well for on-campus buildings like University Hall, Edwards Hall, Mills Library and Wentworth Hall.

hamiltonguy

Jan 29, 2008, 3:02 PM

Honestly they'd be stupid not to build downtown.

Tonnes of money from the city, Mac, and the Hotel companies for land the school board owns plus they'll have 6 sites plus the Jerome Mega-Site to sell off for development. The plan could probably pay for itself.

I'm sad to see the education building go, but if the new downtown centre is built I will consider it a worthy replacement.

raisethehammer

Jan 29, 2008, 3:21 PM

they should sell off the Jerome land for homes...that's all that's out there. they could make a bundle and help pay to stay downtown.

SteelTown

Jan 29, 2008, 3:30 PM

hamiltonguy

Jan 29, 2008, 3:31 PM

Exactly, the board should be making money on this. Jerome (A huge site if you go there and check it out) +6 other sites they can sell. Plus money from Mac, The City, and TWO Hotel Companies for space at the board's current site. They'd have to be idiots NOT to make money from this. I hope they money they make goes into a Fund where the Capital + Grow up to Inflation is protected and They spend the interest over inflation on repairing our quite frankly SHITTY schools, and expanding ones that are overcrowded *coughs* like finishing adding Westmount's second Story *Coughs*

SteelTown

Jan 29, 2008, 7:02 PM

But that issue should be resolved once McMaster, the City, School Board and possibly the hotels join together and build the parking garage. The School Board can finance a new building it's just the garage. They have now until April to work out a financial deal with all parties inolved in this project, that includes Braley. A lot of back room discussions will be taking place.

I forgot to include the province as well. The financial deal will fit in perfectly with Queen's Park budget time around March or April, provincial contribution towards the medicine centre. An interesting fact is that Braley is one of Dalton's largest private donator. Dalton owes him as Braley couldn’t get a casino license for Hamilton, moratorium.

SteelTown

Feb 1, 2008, 4:22 PM

Saving education centre won't get more study
Board limits business case to moving out or rebuilding on another owned site

By Richard Leitner
News
Feb 01, 2008

A city proposal to level the Education Centre to make way for a massive redevelopment will get a serious second look as an alternative to moving out of the downtown landmark.

Hamilton-Wentworth District School Board trustees emerged from a brief closed-door session on Monday to give staff the go-ahead to develop a business plan that considers both options.

Despite public pleas, saving the Education Centre won't get any more study because, according to a staff report, "retaining and renovating the current building is not a cost-effective option."

Only trustees Lillian Orban and Ray Mulholland opposed the two-option plan, with Flamborough Trustee Karen Turkstra abstaining.

Board chair Judith Bishop acknowledged afterwards the public has been given few details to judge staff's cost estimates of the seven options presented since last fall.

Trustees have received more information, both in closed-door sessions and at three private "workshops" or "briefings" held last October.

"The cheapest thing we have is $33 million and we can't afford that," Ms. Bishop said. "The business plan which will be coming in April will have the firmed-up numbers," she said.

"(Staff) have given very broad concepts. They've indicated what those numbers include, but you're right, they're still soft."

The cheapest option -- and the one favoured by staff all along -- calls for the construction of new headquarters at Jerome Park on the West Mountain, estimated at $33 million.

The other remaining option is the city's proposal to redevelop the Education Centre site for two hotels, a McMaster University family medicine centre and new headquarters for both the board and city health department.

It doesn't have a price tag but its seriousness has been questioned by at least one trustee because the city has also said it hopes to relocate the health department to the Lister Block.

The cost of renovating the Education Centre is unclear because staff have included it as part of an option that would also refurbish six other buildings, initially estimated at $44 million in total.

The latest staff report now states the cost could be as high as $65 million, but gives no explanation for the increase other than potential "surprise costs."

Ms. Bishop said the board is "trying to be as transparent as possible," but discussion often ventures into land values and contractual matters that are properly dealt with behind closed doors.

"We're very scrupulous about when we go in-camera," she said. "We're trying to let everyone know where we're at. It is a bit of a balancing act because we're in negotiations, too."

During the brief portion of the meeting that was public, staff didn't have many answers to the few questions trustees did ask.

Ms. Orban was told her queries about the cost of infrastructure and converting the Jerome Park site's current agricultural zoning will be answered as part of the business plan.

A similar response was given when Ms. Turkstra asked how much the board spends on renting outside space for staff training.

She said she's "not entirely convinced" the board needs to build a training centre as part of any new headquarters, as proposed by staff.

HAMRetrofit

Feb 1, 2008, 4:55 PM

How come no option was explored for renovating the existing education building while constructing an above ground parkade/mixed used office structure on the adjacent parking lot? Combined with selling off all of their office properties scattered throughout the city this would likely be the most economical. They could make a lot of money just selling off that Jerome site.

markbarbera

Feb 1, 2008, 5:10 PM

The biggest beef I have with the way city politics works in Hamilton is illustrated here.

An elected body wants to take one specific course of action. In order to make it look like the action is arrived at through democratic decision-making, they hold public meetings to 'explore' options. The options are presented by staff with (usually implicit) direction to shine favourable light on the desired course of action, and present all other options as unfavourable. Unbiased third-party input is discouraged. Public meetings are scheduled in small spaces at less-than-accommodating times (if held at all), and input is gathered but not given true deliberation. Closed-door meetings greatly outnumber public meetings on the topic, then the council/board emerges from a final closed-door meeting with a vote in favour of the original course of action.

This is why people are so cynical about politics. And politicians love cynicism as it means that their actions are not subject to scrutiny. And they can make bad decisions like this.

the dude

Feb 1, 2008, 8:44 PM

ya, they've already made a decision. the question now is whether or not someone can convince them to stay downtown. by convince i mean hand them a big cheque.

here's another idea of mine that people will laugh at: why not let people farm the land on the jerome site? ya, that's stupid.

i'm guessing this is the approximate location of the site in question:
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa121/the_dude1974/boardsite.jpg

SteelTown

Feb 1, 2008, 8:52 PM

^ Nope, that's the site of a massive housing project, it was just on the news as RTH website joked about as being mixed used residential development.

That land will be part of the 40-60 Greenbelt equation as it's considered urban infill.

the dude

Feb 1, 2008, 9:05 PM

k...i think it's somewhere in here:
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa121/the_dude1974/boardsite2.jpg

SteelTown

Feb 1, 2008, 9:10 PM

^ Yep! The same land HHS is looking at for a new hospital as well.

HAMRetrofit

Feb 1, 2008, 9:26 PM

Wow what a profoundly idiotic location for the board of education. The children are the future and the people who want to teach them have decided to move here. I am nervous about the future of humanity.

DC83

Feb 1, 2008, 9:32 PM

^ Yep! The same land HHS is looking at for a new hospital as well.

hahaha Sooo, it's pretty much a no-brainer for those who have a brain: Sell off the Jerome site to HHS, then build downtown!

Is it really that complicated that they need to study the shit out of this?

hamiltonguy

Feb 1, 2008, 10:13 PM

I believe the one on the left is Jerome but I could be mistaken.

realcity

Feb 6, 2008, 2:40 PM

The only major issue that the School Board has with the downtown location is parking. They are afraid they can't afford a parking garage hence why they like the Mountain location, no need for a parking garage just a parking lot.

But that issue should be resolved once McMaster, the City, School Board and possibly the hotels join together and build the parking garage. The School Board can finance a new building it's just the garage. They have now until April to work out a financial deal with all parties inolved in this project, that includes Braley. A lot of back room discussions will be taking place.

And we can't afford to keep using our land like this (surface parking lots, low density, auto-centric, wasted space on useless landscaping).

The School Board should be ashamed of themselves for proposing a solution with no foresight, no creative/independent thinking, and a building solution that will have a shorter lifespan then the catastrophe they occupy now. Next election I'm going find out what Trustees supported the mountain option and expose them for their total 'unleadership' and 'trusteeship'.