Quicken moves to Detroit.

[LivingIn622]

Livonia based Quicken finally takes the plunge, moving to downtown Detroit.


QUICKEN MOVING TO DOWNTOWN DETROIT

Quicken Loans Inc., one of Michigan's fastest-growing companies, will move its suburban headquarters to downtown Detroit, Chairman Dan Gilbert and Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick told me today.

The move, pending year-long studies of the so-called Hudson's site on Woodward and vacant Statler Hotel site, would consolidate at least 4,000 employees in the new Quicken headquarters from sites in Livonia and other suburbs. It also would turbocharge a corporate revival of downtown led by General Motors Corp., Compuware Corp., Ilitch Holdings Inc., new casino-and-hotel complexes and a vibrant entertainment district.

Gilbert and Kilpatrick envision the downtown headquarters as the centerpiece of a mega development combining retail, condominiums and a technology park -- the cornerstone of an initiative they're calling "Detroit 2.0."

"This is big," Kilpatrick said, describing a package of state and local incentives that could total as much as $200 million over the next 20 years. "This is a done deal. We've signed the development agreement. This is the largest package that we -- the city and state -- have put together to bring a company to downtown Detroit."

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A news conference to announce the deal -- expected for months but delayed by protracted negotiations and a spreading mortgage industry meltdown that appears to have largely missed Quicken and its Michigan unit, Rock Financial -- is scheduled for noon Tuesday at Rock Financial Park on East Larned in Detroit.

The development agreement is only the first step. After the one-year study period, set to expire on Nov. 13, 2008, Quicken would have an 18-month "due diligence" period to finalize plans for either the city-owned Hudson's or the Statler site, controlled by the quasi-governmental Detroit Economic Growth Corp.

It's hard to overstate the economic and political significance for Kilpatrick and Detroit of Quicken's planned move downtown, a process likely to take at least three years before the first shovels go into the ground. This is a proverbial shot in the arm for a region desperate for some good news amid an almost weekly barrage of plant closings, restructurings, jobs cuts and public budget woes.

Gilbert's 'big-bang' in Detroit
Depending on the month, Michigan vies for national leadership in high unemployment, low job creation and rising home foreclosures and struggles with its enduring image as the epicenter of Old Economy America.

Add Detroit's reputation, much of it historically deserved, for urban decay, residential blight, anti-business sentiment, failing schools and violent crime and the Quicken decision seems all the more encouraging because it suggests real change is occurring amid brutal economic times.

That an Internet-driven lender touted as one of the country's best places to work, with operations in Cleveland and Arizona, with a business model spanning the entire country is choosing Detroit for its new headquarters says as much about the city as it says about Gilbert -- and it's all good.

"It's a Big Bang approach," said Gilbert, co-founder of Quicken and majority owner of the NBA's Cleveland Cavaliers. "You can't have jobs until you have the companies. You can't have retail until you have jobs. We need to locate more and more entrepreneurs in a centralized hub that feeds off each other."

Quicken's development agreement ties up for one year two prime downtown sites -- Hudson's and the demolished Statler site on Grand Circus Park. The idea: Planners would be free to consider designs, engineering and the interests of entrepreneurs and other technology companies interested in joining the Quicken complex.

"Until we went public with this," said Gilbert, who notified Quicken employees of the company's decision by voice-mail late this afternoon, "it was very difficult to have discussions with other parties. This isn't about going out and raiding the suburban locations of companies."

He called Detroit "a great alternative now" and said a driver behind Quicken's downtown gambit is to jumpstart economic growth. "This is much bigger than a headquarters. We're calling it Detroit 2.0."

Postive tipping point reached
The mayor's right: This is huge, however much the move could be dismissed as a) simply a move from a near western suburb to downtown and b) the city's embrace of a mortgage lender whose industry is in turmoil amid declining home prices and the subprime mortgage meltdown.

But such a cynical view would be too simplistic. Quicken sells the vast majority of loans it writes, almost all of which are "non-recurring" and thus cannot end up back on Quicken's books. Think of it and its Rock Financial unit as loan marketers and originators, not loan holders and servicers, who may be affected less by a slowing housing than rivals.

"We've avoided 98 percent of the catastrophe that others have stepped into," Gilbert said. "As far as castrophic incidents that just does not exist."

If it did, why would Quicken's founder choose now -- as equity markets continue their swoon over, among other things, massive write-downs on mortgage-backed securities by such financial giants as Citicorp, Merrill Lynch and others -- to confirm the most open secret in the Detroit economic development game?

"For them to do this, they feel very strongly they will be a strong, viable company in the future," said George Jackson, president of the Detroit Economic Development Growth Corp. and a key negotiator in the deal. "This shows confidence in Quicken Loans' future. This shows confidence in Detroit. This is a real, favorable tipping point for downtown Detroit."

[mhays]

Very exciting! Assuming it happens, that's a noticeable uptick in the overall Downtown worker population, and it'll give DTDT another bit of "new". Downtowns do best when they mix new and old. Also, as another major headquarters, it'll help insulate DTDT from the ups and downs of relying too much on a few anchor companies.

[hudkina]

Here are the two possible sites that they'll be moving to:

http://www.freep.com/assets/images/1113_downtown_quicken.jpg

[tablemtn]

Quicken might be in trouble due to the whole subprime loan fiasco... we'll see how that turns out in a couple years.

[hudkina]

I think Quicken might actually benefit from the subprime meltdown because it will pick up business from companies that couldn't make it through.

It's similar to what happened in Detroit in the depression. Many car companies went out of business, to the benefit of other larger companies (Ford, Chrysler, etc.)

[mind field]

Quicken might be in trouble due to the whole subprime loan fiasco... we'll see how that turns out in a couple years.

Did you even read the article???

Moving on, this calls for :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :yes: :tup: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :rock:

[tablemtn]

I read the article, but I've also read about the subprime markets. Quicken gets substantial tax breaks from this move; this might also be interpreted as a way for the company to use those breaks to try and stave off collapse.

[hudkina]

Actually, even with the tax breaks moving to Detroit is probably just as expensive as staying in the suburbs and a lot more expensive than moving to a sunbelt city (e.g. Dallas, Atlanta, etc.) He is moving his company to Detroit because he has faith in the city and wants to create a catalyst for future development.

In fact, one of the reasons why Quicken isn't doing as bad as many other companies is that it doesn't actually hold on to the loans that it writes. It sells them to banks and other services. So while it hasn't been able to write as many loans as it did a few years ago, it never actually experienced the real muck of the subprime meltdown.

[mind field]

I read the article, but I've also read about the subprime markets. Quicken gets substantial tax breaks from this move; this might also be interpreted as a way for the company to use those breaks to try and stave off collapse.

If that were the case, i would think they would want to be moving downtown ASAP, and not waiting many years before finally getting the breaks. And this move has been rumored about for AT LEAST 2 years, long before the subprime mess. Dan Gilbert seems to be a visionary who knows what it takes to anchor urban centers and create vibrant cities. This region needs so many more leaders, in politics and business, that think like Mr. Gilbert. Our potential to be an urban wonder and a world city is present, if we focused exclusively on the core. But the core will just have to try and outshine all the other cities trying to be the trendy, vibrant place in this region. I mean look what happens when so much effort is concentrated and focused on the core: Chicago, New York, Vancouver, Calgary, etc.

[Crawford]

I think Quicken might actually benefit from the subprime meltdown because it will pick up business from companies that couldn't make it through.


LOL, well that's one way of looking at it. I have not heard from anyone besides Gilbert claim that Quicken is unaffected or benefitting(!) from a meltdown in the mortgage markets.

Outside of bankruptcy attorneys, I don't think there are many winners in the present economic situation.

Regardless, this is fantastic news, and and an early Christmas present for Detroit.

[al2six]

In fact, one of the reasons why Quicken isn't doing as bad as many other companies is that it doesn't actually hold on to the loans that it writes. It sells them to banks and other services. So while it hasn't been able to write as many loans as it did a few years ago, it never actually experienced the real muck of the subprime meltdown.
exactly. quicken typically sells off their loans within 30 days of aquiring them. so worst case scenario, they had a horrible horrible month. this company is not in any danger of going bankrupt at the present time.

[EuphoricOctopus]

Here are the two possible sites that they'll be moving to:

http://www.freep.com/assets/images/1113_downtown_quicken.jpg

Quicken wants to develop both parcels. I see them moving their WHQs to the Statler site and build an technology park on the Hudson's block or whatever he said. I just can't see them moving to the Hudson's block.

[ChunkyMonkey]

Congrats to Detroit. It's nice to city the city winning over the suburbs for a change.

[AccraGhana]

I predict that Detroit’s population decline will bottom out at around 750,000 before it makes a solid rebound. The trigger for this rebound is the general demographic national trend of central city living being spurred on by singles and empty nesters. Exacerbation of this trend will result from rising cost of gasoline. When gas hits 5 dollars a gallon due to peak oil and the growth of global demand for oil far exceeding the growth of new reserves, American cities will become like European cities where the poor live in the inefficient suburbs while the solid middle class gentrifies the urban core. Dense living and taking advantage of culture, entertainment, public transit and the like will reduce the demand for oil.

Detroit’s population my also grow if the nation goes into a deep recession or depression in the next 5 years, which I estimate that there is a 70% probability of. Assuming that the whole nation will be dragged down and no boom towns exist during this period, people will return to their place of birth in large numbers due to the fact that their parents likely own a home that they can at least stay at for free. Children, when faced with tough economic times, often go back home and given the number of people who have left Detroit for other states, many could be returning home it times get really bad.

I think this announcement is an attempt to keep the momentum going for the city of Detroit. I think its purpose is to encourage other potential companies to move to the city who may be considering such. I also believe that the delay in this project has to do with Gilbert wanting to wait and see what happens with the economy. There are some very ominous signs as the storm clouds are brewing and overhead. It would not be wise to start building a beachfront home when a category 5 hurricane is potentially heading your way. I don’t care how much his business survived the sub prime crisis, if what he says is true, his business would be hard hit by a deep recession or depression. He does not want to make commitments and then get halfway into this transition and the nation goes into a deep recession. No smart business person whose business is dependent upon a good economy would do such.

[totheskies]

I hope Detroit runs with this idea... there are so many strong companies in the suburbs that could save money and enjoy the benefits of being downtown. Sharing the border with Canada is also an amazing trait that the city has. Downtown's biggest problem (at least from the outsiders' perspective) is that Detroit's reputation is currently down the tubes. Hopefully the people that visit are quickly realizing how awesome the city is.

I haven't been there since 2002, and it's high time I took another visit. Congratulations Detroit!!!!!

[tablemtn]

Just out of curiosity, I went over to the Detroit Free Press site, went to the comments section, and found this (I have inserted paragraphs for reading convenience):

I am disappointed and actually angry, very angry at this political move by Quicken into Detroit. My son, a pride and joy in my life, works for Quicken. He work extraordinary hours, first job out of college and 7 days a week is not unusual for him. He does not agree with this move and told me he will quit before moving, and I support that, completely.

Why? Because he knows and despises Detroit after 5 years at Wayne state university. Let's start with the two times his car was severely damaged in the attempt to steal it. Let's follow up on this with the fact that this city is not safe (anywhere!) + extra city taxes out of his pay + extra commute time + extra gasoline + higher insurance costs, plus so many other negatives.

My son is not a sacrificial lamb on the political altar of meaningless actions to improve Detroit. People like my son are too valuable to become a statistic of crime, plus suffering a loss of quality of life to help the cesspool that is this city. I did not spent a lifetime nurturing him, maintaining a strong marriage and countless hours of my life to see him become a statistic of Detroit.

It is so easy for the media and politicians to pat themselves on the back and claim this is another step forward for Detroit. I disagree so strongly that I can not fully express it in words. It will be my son driving into this city, hoping his car is not stolen; that no one is in the parking lot at 6 AM or 10 PM, waiting to ambush him. He is a big strong fellow, college athlete and can take care of himself. But I do not want him facing the mindless criminals of this city that shoot first and care not about life; sub-humans without souls, without family structure, who for generations have lived off the back of people like me.

It is my son, my flesh and blood, my pride and joy and I will never agree that working in Detroit is in his best interests. And yes, I am one of the many suburbanites that still is not convinced we would be better off with a strong Detroit. However, I am convinced that we would be better off with a strong Troy, or Southfield or any other city than Detroit. I believe we should start with a functioning city and build upon strength, rather than start with a cesspool like Detroit and sacrifice my son on a doomed city. I am unreasonably angry, reacting emotionally; but he is my son and Detroit be dammed!

Wow. I didn't realize the suburb/city animosity in Detroit was quite THAT deep...

Link to source (http://forums.freep.com/viewtopic.php?t=60836&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30&sid=691fec3461d15dba4a17811feb128565)

[EuphoricOctopus]

Oh man. I just avoid the Free Press comments. There is NO ONE in this world that hates Detroit as much as the suburbanites do. These are old ex-detroiters (usually really conservative) that feel "victimized" by the destruction of what they once knew. They probably haven't been in the city for 20-30 years and probably wont ever. Sad really.

[EuphoricOctopus]

I think this announcement is an attempt to keep the momentum going for the city of Detroit. I think its purpose is to encourage other potential companies to move to the city who may be considering such. I also believe that the delay in this project has to do with Gilbert wanting to wait and see what happens with the economy. There are some very ominous signs as the storm clouds are brewing and overhead. It would not be wise to start building a beachfront home when a category 5 hurricane is potentially heading your way. I don’t care how much his business survived the sub prime crisis, if what he says is true, his business would be hard hit by a deep recession or depression. He does not want to make commitments and then get halfway into this transition and the nation goes into a deep recession. No smart business person whose business is dependent upon a good economy would do such.

Gilbert already made the commitment, they are going to announce the plans at 12pm today. He invested in numerous companies and owns the cleveland cavaliers. He knows how to run a business and run it well, so Quicken isn't going anywhere.

A blip from the freep.

That Quicken/Rock is weathering the national mortgage and credit crisis better than most lenders. The firm has shrunk its total employment from a high of about 4,800 earlier this year to about 4,000 today. A hiring freeze has been in effect since summer, but Gilbert said about 100 recruits will start in December. He said Quicken still expects to write $19 billion to $20 billion in loans this year and pick up market share from troubled lenders.

[EuphoricOctopus]

The free press has a better article:


Quicken to bring HQ, 4,000 workers downtown

Grand vision is of another Silicon Valley

November 13, 2007
BY TOM WALSH
FREE PRESS COLUMNIST


After two years of speculation and negotiations, Quicken Loans and Rock Financial founder and Chairman Dan Gilbert told the Free Press on Monday that he will move the mortgage firm's headquarters office and 4,000 people from Livonia to downtown Detroit.


Detroit Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick and Gov. Jennifer Granholm are expected to join Gilbert at a noon news conference today to formally announce the deal.


The Quicken/Rock move, expected to take place over the next three to four years, is the biggest corporate commitment to downtown Detroit since 1999, when Peter Karmanos Jr. decided to move Compuware Corp. from Farmington Hills, building an office tower that now anchors Campus Martius. Gilbert, 45, said he has contractually promised the city that he will make a final decision within the next 12 months between two possible sites for the new Quicken headquarters: a 2-acre parcel on the site of the former J.L. Hudson's store and a site off Grand Circus Park where the now-demolished Statler and Tuller hotels once stood.


"Our intent," Gilbert said, "is to develop both parcels" -- one with Quicken's headquarters and the other with growing technology companies, incubators and venture capital firms, to build on what Karmanos started when he moved Compuware downtown.


"We're going under the moniker of Detroit 2.0," Gilbert said. "The grand vision is to create our version of Sand Hill Road in Silicon Valley."


Kilpatrick said he sees Gilbert and Quicken leading "a transformational movement in our city."


Granholm said, "Dan Gilbert could move his company to any state in the nation, but he is choosing to stay right here in Michigan, and that should send a signal to other new-economy companies that this is a great place to do business."


"We were pursued by other states," Gilbert said. "We have other locations, in Arizona and Ohio, but nowhere is it any better than right here in Michigan. There is a skilled, knowledgeable worker with a Midwest work ethic you don't find everywhere."


Quicken/Rock's decision to proceed with the headquarters move says two encouraging things:

• That Quicken/Rock is weathering the national mortgage and credit crisis better than most lenders. The firm has shrunk its total employment from a high of about 4,800 earlier this year to about 4,000 today. A hiring freeze has been in effect since summer, but Gilbert said about 100 recruits will start in December. He said Quicken still expects to write $19 billion to $20 billion in loans this year and pick up market share from troubled lenders.

• That Detroit still has some momentum as a home for growing companies, particularly those with young workers interested in an urban experience, including proximity to sporting events, concerts and theater.
Quicken's project, like most any development would be, is eligible for Renaissance Zone and Michigan Economic Growth Authority exemptions from a variety of taxes. In Quicken's case, the savings could be as much as $200 million over 12 to 20 years.


"This is a good business decision," Kilpatrick said. "Dan may be passionate about Detroit, but he's also focused on the bottom line."


Although Gilbert has an expansive vision for developing both the Statler and Hudson's sites, he's contractually committed to only one. After a decision is made on where to locate the headquarters, he said, it will take another 18 to 24 months to complete due diligence, renderings and construction plans.


By then, it is hoped, the national housing and mortgage markets will have recovered and Quicken will be back in growth mode. "There will be 1.5 to 2 million new households every year for the next 20 years in this country," he said. "Supply will catch up with demand."


By the time Quicken moves downtown, Gilbert expects to have 4,000 employees there and others elsewhere.


Gilbert said he might include retail development along with his headquarters plan.

Gilbert has spoken often about wanting to be a catalyst to spur other companies to move downtown, possibly coaxing Quicken suppliers and other firms in which he has invested, such as wall graphics maker Fathead LLC in Livonia and fast-growing ePrize, an interactive marketing firm with 350 employees in Pleasant Ridge.


Gilbert also has helped to finance two nonprofit projects in Detroit -- Bizdom U, an entrepreneurial training program for urban youth, and Junior Achievement Finance Park to teach middle school kids how to manage money.


Gilbert and two partners created Rock Financial in 1985, when Gilbert, then 22, was a first-year law student at Wayne State University. Back then, most mortgage industry business came via referrals from real estate agents. But the Rock Financial upstarts bypassed the middleman by advertising directly to borrowers. The phones started ringing and the business changed forever.


Rock grew to 110 employees by 1992 and 750 by 1998, when Gilbert sold shares to the public. Soon after, at the height of the dot-com boom, Rock was bought by Intuit for $532 million. After the dot-com bust, Gilbert bought it back in 2002 for $55 million.


Despite the crash of dot-com stocks, Gilbert knew the Internet would be the springboard for future growth. He changed the company name to Quicken Loans, which is now the nation's leading Internet mortgage lender, while keeping the well-known Rock Financial name for its traditional mortgage offices in Michigan. The firm also operates a related title insurance business, Title Source.


The explosive growth and profitability of Quicken allowed Gilbert to indulge his passionate interest in sports. Rock Financial became almost synonymous with Detroit Pistons basketball in 2003 as the team's presenting sponsor. And after a failed attempt to buy the Milwaukee Brewers baseball team in 2004, Gilbert led a group in 2005 that purchased the Cleveland Cavaliers basketball team, which features phenom LeBron James.


A year later, he bought a minor league hockey team, moved it to Cleveland and renamed it the Lake Erie Monsters. He also opened a Quicken Loans mortgage office about a block from the Cavs' stadium, which he renamed Quicken Loans Arena, or the Q for short.


Gilbert says Quicken's success is because of its high-intensity, high-reward performance culture, which he concedes is not for everyone. Quicken has made Fortune magazine's list of "100 Best Companies to Work For" each of the past three years. Employee turnover is 36% a year.
Gilbert also is a founding partner in RockBridge Equity, a private-equity group that invests in growing businesses in the financial services, Web/Internet retail technology, consumer direct marketing and the sports, media and entertainment sectors.

Contact TOM WALSH at 313-223-4430 or twalsh@freepress.com.

[skyfan]

J

Wow. I didn't realize the suburb/city animosity in Detroit was quite THAT deep...

Link to source (http://forums.freep.com/viewtopic.php?t=60836&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30&sid=691fec3461d15dba4a17811feb128565)


Yeah for some people it's that deep. While the majority don't feel that way there's a sizable minority that just outright hate the city.

[hudkina]

Wow. I didn't realize the suburb/city animosity in Detroit was quite THAT deep...

While many suburbanites do have a messed up view of the city, I think that most don't hold such a negative view, especially those that never visit the city. It's actually sad, because that woman probably hasn't been in Detroit since 1967...

As far as crime though, I have been going to Wayne State for years and I have never had any problems with crime, and I park on the street off-campus. Every month, WSU creates a "crime data" report showing all of the crime reported on or near the campus. It's actually pretty low.

- Crimes Reported on the Wayne State University Campus -

September 2007 Jan-Sept 2007 Jan-Sept 2006

Homicide 0 0 0

Forcible Sex Offenses 3 5 7

Non-Forcible Sex Offenses 0 0 0

Robbery 1 16 5

Aggravated Assault 1 7 7

Burglary 3 43 71

Larceny 13 218 321

Vehicle Theft 4 22 21

Arson 0 2 1

About 30 cars are stolen from the campus area every year.

Also, while many people often view Robbery, Aggravated Assault, and Forcible Sex Offense as "violent" crime, the reality is that in most cases they are minor incidences.

The majority of the forcible sex offenses are actually just cases of "fondling", and while it can be upsetting to the vicitm, it's not as traumatizing as a rape.

Three Forcible Sex Offenses (all fondling incidents) were reported during September 2007. Two incidents occurred at the Kresge Eye Institute, in the Medical Center, on September 1st and September 29th. In both cases, female staff members reported being fondled by a 45 year old male staff member. That offender was identified and both complainants have filed criminal complaints against their male coworker. The male has subsequently been charged by the Wayne County Prosecutors Office, with two counts of Criminal Sexual Conduct - 4th degree. His cases are proceeding through the Wayne County court system. He is also facing termination of his employment at the Kresge Eye Institute.
The third Forcible Sex Offense (also a fondling incident) occurred on September 19th at the South Residence Hall when an 18 year old male WSU student (a guest of a South Hall resident) fondled an 18 year old female South Hall resident. That subject was also identified and has subsequently been charged, by the Wayne County Prosecutors Office, with Criminal Sexual Conduct - 4th degree. His case is pending in the Wayne County court system. Additionally, this 18 year old male Wayne State student has been suspended from WSU and has been barred from campus. None of the female victims in any of these incidents was injured.

Also, many people think of robbery as when a person holds a gun up to another person and takes their wallet/jewelry/etc. But in many cases it might simply be an attempted purse snatching. For example, the one reported incident of robbery on campus is described below:

One attempted Robbery Not Armed incident was reported on campus during September 2007. This incident occurred at approximately 1:15pm on September 10th at W. Warren at the Lodge Freeway service drive when a 26 year old female student reports she was sitting on the grass waiting for her ride. There, she was approached by the below described subject who exposed himself and then tried to snatch the students purse from her shoulder. The subject was not successful and he fled across Warren to the shopping plaza parking lot. The student was not injured.

[LivingIn622]

The suburbs of Detroit want that city to have a katrina. They want the whole city washed away so somebody can start it over, and build the city from scratch. And to say the truth 90% of those people never go to Detroit except once in a while to see a tiger game or lions game.

[EuphoricOctopus]

I'm 20 and everyone from 20 to 30 loves Detroit. My BFF who lives waaay in Livonia loves going downtown, campus martius, techfest, riverfront, etc. I have friends in Troy, South Lyon, Brighton, and they all love Detroit. It will take our generation to move this region forward.

[Lakelander]

Nice. Downtown Detroit is definately on its way back.

[Michi]

I hope Detroit runs with this idea... there are so many strong companies in the suburbs that could save money and enjoy the benefits of being downtown. Sharing the border with Canada is also an amazing trait that the city has. Downtown's biggest problem (at least from the outsiders' perspective) is that Detroit's reputation is currently down the tubes. Hopefully the people that visit are quickly realizing how awesome the city is.
A Detroit visitor's opinion of Detroit is a ga-zillion times better than a Detroiters view of Detroit.

Just a suggestion, but go over to the Free Press website which allows commenting to the stories. See how pathetically aweful many of the remarks are from the very start. I think I remember the first comment telling the new downtown workers to pack heat. At which I wondered, "why? So, on their lunch break they can go out and spray the central business district and commit mass murder"?

Detroit is Detroit's worst enemy and that helps put this news into a new perspective.

[James Bond Agent 007]

Great news for Detroit! Let's just hope they build something tall. :cool:

[LivingIn622]

Great news for Detroit! Let's just hope they build something tall. :cool:

I second that. They should at least go over 25 storys. 45 storys would be looking nice :tup:

[ginsan2]

Just out of curiosity, I went over to the Detroit Free Press site, went to the comments section, and found this (I have inserted paragraphs for reading convenience):



Wow. I didn't realize the suburb/city animosity in Detroit was quite THAT deep...

Link to source (http://forums.freep.com/viewtopic.php?t=60836&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30&sid=691fec3461d15dba4a17811feb128565)
It actually goes much, much deeper than that.

Yeah for some people it's that deep. While the majority don't feel that way there's a sizable minority that just outright hate the city.
I'd say the majority hate Detroit. The people that fled in the 70's hate Detroit (here hatred is closely attached to black people), the people that saw their businesses run down to the ground after the tax nightmares spawned by Detroit hate Detroit, and most of all, the people in "nice" areas that see Detroiters dumped on their door steps because of a bus system they weren't successful in killing... hate Detroit.

I'm 20 and everyone from 20 to 30 loves Detroit. My BFF who lives waaay in Livonia loves going downtown, campus martius, techfest, riverfront, etc. I have friends in Troy, South Lyon, Brighton, and they all love Detroit. It will take our generation to move this region forward.

I'd have to disagree here. Everyone 20-30 loves Ann Arbor and is moving to Chicago. Hell, I live twenty minutes from downtown and it took three attempts and eventual bribery to get myself and four other employees to switch to the Detroit office.

I just don't feel that this is really in any way a step forward for Detroit. The vast majority of residents are still impoverished and uneducated. Most importantly, the political system in place in Detroit (and, hell, in all of Michigan) is hopelessly outdated and filled with "I'm so deserving" bureaucrats that would rather "conference" in Hawai'i than actually stay here and solve the damn problems they've created. We have a government that does not understand what it means to be pro-business. Most irritatingly, they have that 1950's era attitude that just refuses to come to terms with how pointless they are today.

[the urban politician]

Yaay Detroit!!


....Okay, that was cheesy and poorly thought out, but I really don't know what else to say. I wanted to give my congratulations. At least I'm drinking some fine Carribbean rum, so I can't be doing too badly :cool:

[skyfan]

I just don't feel that this is really in any way a step forward for Detroit. The vast majority of residents are still impoverished and uneducated. Most importantly, the political system in place in Detroit (and, hell, in all of Michigan) is hopelessly outdated and filled with "I'm so deserving" bureaucrats that would rather "conference" in Hawai'i than actually stay here and solve the damn problems they've created. We have a government that does not understand what it means to be pro-business. Most irritatingly, they have that 1950's era attitude that just refuses to come to terms with how pointless they are today.

Not a step forward? So after Compuware moved its 4,000 workers downtown, it's the same place it was four years ago?. Detroit, especially downtown, is the face of the region and this true everywhere else. People don't to desire Chicago, SF, Boston areas because how great their suburbs are it on the strength of their downtown.

[dimondpark]

4,000 workers is a lot. Great news for Downtown Detroit!

[hudkina]

I just don't feel that this is really in any way a step forward for Detroit. The vast majority of residents are still impoverished and uneducated.

ginsan, only about a 1/4 of the population lives below the poverty line (which DOESN'T necessarily mean they are impoverished) and as far as education is concerned, while most people do not have a college degree, they do have a high school diploma.

So unless the new definition for "vast majority" is a small minority, then you're a moron...

[mind field]

then you're a moron...

Clearly.

[totheskies]

I'd have to disagree here. Everyone 20-30 loves Ann Arbor and is moving to Chicago. Hell, I live twenty minutes from downtown and it took three attempts and eventual bribery to get myself and four other employees to switch to the Detroit office.

I just don't feel that this is really in any way a step forward for Detroit. The vast majority of residents are still impoverished and uneducated. Most importantly, the political system in place in Detroit (and, hell, in all of Michigan) is hopelessly outdated and filled with "I'm so deserving" bureaucrats that would rather "conference" in Hawai'i than actually stay here and solve the damn problems they've created. We have a government that does not understand what it means to be pro-business. Most irritatingly, they have that 1950's era attitude that just refuses to come to terms with how pointless they are today.

I can't figure out if you are with the Haters, or the Restorators...

Chicago and New York are great, but again, not for everyone. With the outstanding collegiate populations in the state from UMich, MSU, Western, Central, and a host of others, there will always be a great level of education in the area b/c those are all GREAT schools. It's true, most people that live in the D's suburbs don't get a good picture of the city, and I think that the media clouds the view of the rest of the state. News media is highly to blame, with movies like 8mile and the local news stations always pounding the ghetto image into people's heads.

Another important thing to remember is that suburban Michigan has reaped the benefits of decentralizing Detroit. The urban core has given up so much money and talent to the bland burbs that they have become some of the richest areas in our country. I don't think a Houston-style answer would help (annexation by force), but someone should try to tip the power-struggle to Detroit's favor.

[Michi]

Another important thing to remember is that suburban Michigan has reaped the benefits of decentralizing Detroit. The urban core has given up so much money and talent to the bland burbs that they have become some of the richest areas in our country.
That's a good point, but I think you also have to include the human element that remains left behind too, and that even though "everyone" left and they think they've "cut the embellical cord" that in reality, they are still just as connected to the failed society (so to speak) that they left behind. Simply put, it's denial of the worst kind, as well as irresponsibility.

[miketoronto]

Congrats Detroit. Keep kicking the suburbs ass with suburban relocations to downtown :)

We need Detroit to come and teach Toronto how to get business to move back downtown.

[mhays]

4,000 additional workers would be a significant boost to any downtown.

A strong worker population is an important part of attracting retail, residents, lunch places, happy hours, and so on.

A couple blocks of additional development will provide a good influx of "new" along with the existing -- a mix helps make a downtown look and feel prosperous.

Best of all, you simply have more people out walking around and visible behind windows. The place looks, feels, and is busier.

[Eventually...Chicago]

Congrats to Detroit!
Lets rebuild the midwest cities so that we can build a high speed train system from downtown to downtown!

[Michi]

Another great point. I think by joining Chicago and Detroit we can accomplish the world together! ;)

[hudkina]

Yes, let's steal a dozen or so major chicago firms.;)

[ginsan2]

I can't figure out if you are with the Haters, or the Restorators...

Chicago and New York are great, but again, not for everyone. With the outstanding collegiate populations in the state from UMich, MSU, Western, Central, and a host of others, there will always be a great level of education in the area b/c those are all GREAT schools. It's true, most people that live in the D's suburbs don't get a good picture of the city, and I think that the media clouds the view of the rest of the state. News media is highly to blame, with movies like 8mile and the local news stations always pounding the ghetto image into people's heads.

I'm actually all for a restoration of Detroit. But the most expedient restoration would probably call for a lynch mob to storm the Michigan state legislature (or possibly a hotel in Honolulu, wherever they are these days). If Kwame's managed to survive this long, we can only assume that he's got super powers and is therefore invincible. Or at least, faster than a speeding injunction.

My personal issues stem directly with this kind of move supporting the idiots in power.


Another important thing to remember is that suburban Michigan has reaped the benefits of decentralizing Detroit. The urban core has given up so much money and talent to the bland burbs that they have become some of the richest areas in our country. I don't think a Houston-style answer would help (annexation by force), but someone should try to tip the power-struggle to Detroit's favor.
Well, not really. The urban core hasn't given up any talent at all. All the current talent has come from the suburbs. Which isn't to say that this is necessarily the best thing; an accurate argument would be that a decentralized Detroit has severely retarded the development of those children stuck in the inner city.

[LivingIn622]

whith condos in Detroit taking off, that maybe a good welcome to quicken.

[hudkina]

Well, not really. The urban core hasn't given up any talent at all. All the current talent has come from the suburbs. Which isn't to say that this is necessarily the best thing; an accurate argument would be that a decentralized Detroit has severely retarded the development of those children stuck in the inner city.

He's referring to the fact that most of the businesses that are currently located in the suburbs had their start in Detroit. Do you really think those businesses that are in those shiny buildings in Troy, Southfield, and Auburn Hills came from Atlanta?

Also, ginsan2, why don't you move to Charlotte or Las Vegas or whatever city it is you think is paradise on earth. Please, we definitely don't need you here...

[Evergrey]

Also, ginsan2, why don't you move to Charlotte or Las Vegas or whatever city it is you think is paradise on earth. Please, we definitely don't need you here...

That's the wrong attitude.

[hudkina]

I'm being sarcastic. (P.S. you need to move to Charlotte too!)

[Evergrey]

I'm being sarcastic. (P.S. you need to move to Charlotte too!)

Maybe you should move to Charlotte instead. ;) ginsan2 is the type of bright, ambitious young mind that Rust-Belt cities need to retain and attract.

[ginsan2]

Maybe you should move to Charlotte instead. ;) ginsan2 is the type of bright, ambitious young mind that Rust-Belt cities need to retain and attract.

It's hard not to look at Detroit as a bright, ambitious young mind and feel stymied by extreme depression. I really and truly appreciate that compliment, Evergrey, on a level I don't think I can express well in words. It's something I'd expect my father to say about me, not someone on a bboard.

Regardless of wherever hudkina thinks I should be, I really would love to see a restoration of Detroit. It's just that in this day and age that kind of thing doesn't happen much. Again, and again, and again, I'll point to the backwater 1950's Union-Democrat attitudes of the MI legislature. Old people incapable of understanding the modern world. And then Kwame Kilpatrick, who if there was any justice in this world would be run over by his "bought with city dollars" car.

Lastly, I would absolutely love to live in North Carolina, and I think that Charlotte is a truly gorgeous place. Now is not, I repeat not the time to point a young person living in the rustbelt towards the warm, balmy temps down south ;). Where the ground never freezes and they don't have the stark grayness we saw today.

[hudkina]

Yes, the type of people Detroit needs is people who would love to see a restoration of Detroit. Not the people who WANT to restore Detroit...

[ginsan2]

Yes, the type of people Detroit needs is people who would love to see a restoration of Detroit. Not the people who WANT to restore Detroit...

I'm going to iterate this one last time, because I well and truly believe that you cannot plausibly affect hard-of-hearing status in text.

Detroit will never change until the political system of Michigan, and the political system of Detroit at the city-level, are irrevocably and permanently disbanded, destroyed or otherwise made obsolete. I think Michigan has an embarassment of riches when one considers the proximity of world class educational institutions, and that is certainly something we can draw on (perhaps on city-data we can have a frank discussion on how we can possibly compete to keep young people here when the warm and wonderful cities of the east and west coast are calling). Restoration is probable but impossible at the moment.

[hudkina]

So, basically if Michigan becomes a whore to the global corporations, who would rather use slave labor in southeast asia and who care more about quarterly earnings than quality products, we are going to become a better city? How is that going to happen? There is nothing that Michigan could have done as a state to keep all of the manufacturing jobs it has lost over the decades. If given free reign, a business would make the water in the Great Lakes undrinkable if it would save it a few pennies. You act like government regulation is there to impede business. The government is there to make business accountable to the people. Besides, if the entities that produce the most wealth in this world are corporations, why shouldn't the government impose the most taxes on those corporations? The sad thing is that those corporations use their billions of dollars in revenues to pay off government officials and create propaganda to make you think it is they who are worse off.

Also, if you were given control of the state, what would you do that is different than what people have been trying to do for decades. Sure you can attempt to eliminate the power of the unions, you can lower taxes to make it easier for businesses to earn even more money than they already do, and you can take away services that provide Michigan residents with the good quality of life that they are accustomed to. But who says that will make our ecomony stronger? Sure the rich will get richer, but only at the expense of the middle class. Hell, we did that when Republicans controlled the state for much of the 90's, but guess what we are no better off despite their supposed attempts...

[ginsan2]

So, basically if Michigan becomes a whore to the global corporations, who would rather use slave labor in southeast asia and who care more about quarterly earnings than quality products, we are going to become a better city? How is that going to happen? There is nothing that Michigan could have done as a state to keep all of the manufacturing jobs it has lost over the decades. If given free reign, a business would make the water in the Great Lakes undrinkable if it would save it a few pennies. You act like government regulation is there to impede business. The government is there to make business accountable to the people. Besides, if the entities that produce the most wealth in this world are corporations, why shouldn't the government impose the most taxes on those corporations? The sad thing is that those corporations use their billions of dollars in revenues to pay off government officials and create propaganda to make you think it is they who are worse off.

Also, if you were given control of the state, what would you do that is different than what people have been trying to do for decades. Sure you can attempt to eliminate the power of the unions, you can lower taxes to make it easier for businesses to earn even more money than they already do, and you can take away services that provide Michigan residents with the good quality of life that they are accustomed to. But who says that will make our ecomony stronger? Sure the rich will get richer, but only at the expense of the middle class. Hell, we did that when Republicans controlled the state for much of the 90's, but guess what we are no better off despite their supposed attempts...
So you admit, then, that MI is a lost cause?

[LivingIn622]

Michigan is a lost cause :haha: . Don't be stupid, Michigan isn't just a barren wasteland. With Detroit coming back, Michigan well soon get back on it's feet.

[mhays]

Detroit seems to be making good progress to me. Its core is strengthening and that'll help pull the rest of the city along.

[hudkina]

No, I'm saying that you think there is something that needs to be fixed, simply because some businesses pick Atlanta or Taiwan over Michigan or that currently people think that living in the Desert is better than living in a four-season climate. You seem to think that unless the region is adding 2 million people a decade, it needs to be fixed.

I'm saying that Michigan isn't as bad off as many people think, and that using the same techniques that other states have done isn't going to spur any new era of economic prosperity. Hell, half of the "New South" economy is based on construction. Guess what will happen to the South when cities no longer need new housing or schools or hospitals.

And sure you can point to lists and statistics, but you can spin numbers any way you want. You can have 50 cities with an unemployment rate of less than 1%, but one of those cities still has to be "last" on the list. Does that mean that City #50 is a 50x worse than City #1? No, but someone like you would say: "Wow City #50 sucks because it isn't on Top, someone needs to fix it, because the politicians aren't doing a good enough job. Man, City #1 is so great, I should move there because everything is perfect there!"

[Evergrey]

No, I'm saying that you think there is something that needs to be fixed, simply because some businesses pick Atlanta or Taiwan over Michigan or that currently people think that living in the Desert is better than living in a four-season climate. You seem to think that unless the region is adding 2 million people a decade, it needs to be fixed.

I'm saying that Michigan isn't as bad off as many people think, and that using the same techniques that other states have done isn't going to spur any new era of economic prosperity. Hell, half of the "New South" economy is based on construction. Guess what will happen to the South when cities no longer need new housing or schools or hospitals.

And sure you can point to lists and statistics, but you can spin numbers any way you want. You can have 50 cities with an unemployment rate of less than 1%, but one of those cities still has to be "last" on the list. Does that mean that City #50 is a 50x worse than City #1? No, but someone like you would say: "Wow City #50 sucks because it isn't on Top, someone needs to fix it, because the politicians aren't doing a good enough job. Man, City #1 is so great, I should move there because everything is perfect there!"

I've been hearing a radio advertisement almost daily featuring Michigan native and Hollywood movie star Jeff Daniels ("Dumb & Dumber", "Moonlight In Escanaba") touting the business climate of Michigan. He states "there's never been a better time for you to build your business in Michigan."

[hudkina]

And?

[LivingIn622]

I've been hearing a radio advertisement almost daily featuring Michigan native and Hollywood movie star Jeff Daniels ("Dumb & Dumber", "Moonlight In Escanaba") touting the business climate of Michigan. He states "there's never been a better time for you to build your business in Michigan."

That's funny even it Switzerland on the TV there was an ad for Building your business in Michigan.

[mind field]

ginsan2 is the type of bright, ambitious young mind that Rust-Belt cities need to retain and attract.

Actually, not really. Ginsan displays the lack of critical thinking, as well as sheep herd mentality that is part of the reason Detroit is in the state it is today. It's obvious he/she has a bias toward warm weather climates. Ginsan blames a few politicians in state and local government for making a restoration of Detroit "impossible". Well newsflash for Ginsan, there are policies that hurt our cities chances of strengthening and redeveloping in many other places besides Michigan and Detroit. There is corruption and mismanagement in local government even in world class cities like Chicago!

And from what i can deduce, Ginsan thinks that the move of Quicken from the suburbs to downtown is of little significance. Honestly, there is partial truth in that. The whole city will not be transformed by this move, and many in the metro region will not change their provincial, biased opinion of the city.

But, for the core, which is arguably the most important neighborhood of the city, if not the entire REGION, the move by Quicken will be absolutely earth-shattering and transformational.

Dan Gilbert appears to have a lot more clout in the business community in SE Michigan, than does Peter Karmanos, CEO of Compuware. Or maybe his enthusiasm for the city, and initiative in putting action behind his words is causing others to take notice. Gilbert has verbal commitments from 3 other suburban companies to move downtown! This is excellent! I'm not aware of one company, besides all the retail in the headquarters building, that decided to relocate from the suburbs to downtown because Compuware did so.

www.crainsdetroit.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071118/EMAIL/311180020/-1/newsletter02