What makes urban retail corridors successful?

[RobMidtowner]

I am talking about major retail corridors such as Mag Mile, 5th Ave, Rodeo Dr, etc. Is it something that can be planned and implemented or does it happen organically? Is it good public transportation and walkability or do most patrons drive to these places? I'm just trying to figure out why the places mentioned have and continue to thrive while other corridors continue to see declines and businesses leaving. Your thoughts are appreciated.

Also, does anyone know where to find studies (i.e. traffic, parking, retail, etc.) about the above mentioned retail corridors? Thanks.

[mhays]

One often-overlooked factor: Retail needs to be concentrated rather than diluted. If the overall demand isn't enough for a whole cluster of streets to have good retail, then change the zoning so retail is required on fewer streets, or just one street, or just part of one street.

[Marcu]

In the case of Chicago, there was for a long time (and to a certain extent still is) a shortage of retail in the neighborhoods. This was certainly not planned it just sort of happened. Shoppers had to go 'downtown' (Mag mile or state street) because there wasn't a mall within city limits. This allowed Mich ave developed a certain level of cache and even as retail keeps sprouting up in the neighborhoods now people keep going.

That and there's a sizeable tourist base on and around Mich ave and a sizeable upper and middle-upper class to keep the high end stores packed.

[Steely Dan]

That and there's a sizeable tourist base on and around Mich ave.......... to keep the high end stores packed.

that part cannot be stressed enough in the case of michigan avenue. at any given moment during the day, the street is teeming with thousands of out of town tourists. this constant activity gives the street so much visibility that chains will operate flagship stores on the mag mile, even at a loss, just to build brand awareness among those thousands of tourists walking past their store every hour.

[10023]

Lots of people living and working nearby. They have to be people with lots of money. And the neighborhood has to be relatively crime free and attractive to look at.

That's about it.

[miketoronto]

that part cannot be stressed enough in the case of michigan avenue. at any given moment during the day, the street is teeming with thousands of out of town tourists. this constant activity gives the street so much visibility that chains will operate flagship stores on the mag mile, even at a loss, just to build brand awareness among those thousands of tourists walking past their store every hour.

So stores on Michigan Ave don't make a profit?

Lots of people living and working nearby. They have to be people with lots of money. And the neighborhood has to be relatively crime free and attractive to look at.

To an extent that is right. But the major retail corridors in our downtowns or places like Rodedo, rely on metropolitan draws. You can not have the level of retail and selection that if found on say Michigan Ave without people coming from all points of the metropolitan area.

And the retail areas have to offer something unique and an experience. And with today's takeover of most retail strips by chains, it is even more important to offer something unique.

[Chicago3rd]

So stores on Michigan Ave don't make a profit?


Yes Steely is right...some of the stores do not make a profit on Mag Mile. They are more there for Advertising....that has been known for a long time.

[pdxtex]

im not sure you can compare the examples you sighted to other successful retail corridors. if anything, the magic mile and 5th ave have history on their side, not necessarily revitilization efforts. if we are talking more modern success stories, its probably a combination of good foot traffic, a dense population base nearby, and believe it or not, alot of car traffic too. the pedestrian mall trend from the 70's actually killed alot of downtown drags by cutting off customers who still prefer to drive.

[miketoronto]

Yes Steely is right...some of the stores do not make a profit on Mag Mile. They are more there for Advertising....that has been known for a long time.

That is kinda sad that stores can not make a profit with that many people going by. Makes you wonder what is wrong with our downtowns that these stores can't make a profit, but their little suburban mall stores can.

[the urban politician]

That is kinda sad that stores can not make a profit with that many people going by. Makes you wonder what is wrong with our downtowns that these stores can't make a profit, but their little suburban mall stores can.

^ I don't think the issue is with any lack of business they are getting, but with the relatively high rents they pay to be in such spaces.

[pip]

this is what I understand.,

There are two types of stores. some stores are for advertising and not really for selling. Like the Motorolla store that was on Michigan ave. it was to advertise their products. They did not expect sales nor did they really have sales, most people get their phone through their cell provider and the hope is the customer chooses the Motorolla over Sanyo or something of the phone models available. The Apple store does make a profit but it is there again for advertising and for customers to get information on Apple products. Many people leave the store and go home and purchase the product online, it is cheaper and easier.

The other stores do turn a profit, like Norstrom, etc.

There are two different types of stores with different purposes.

[BTinSF]

^^^SF's Union Square has some of that. Microsoft opened a retail store and it lost money--they eventually closed it. There's still a Sony retail store that I doubt makes anything but it's a great place to see just about anything they make in one place. I ogled my first HDTV there. But I'm sure the Apple Store here makes tons of money--there's invariably a long line at all the cash registers because a lot of the customers are foreign tourists taking advantage of the low dollar (and strong Euro)--but the store also serves as the best place to get an Apple product fixed, especially for warranty repairs.

[POLA]

I know this seems obvious, but it seems like it's the actual stores that make people come there. Doesn't matter if its near people, hard to find, in an ugly mall or whatever. There appears to be a point when the number of high end/popular stores reaches a critical mass that other stores simply want to be near them, and people go because it's "talked about". So, to answer RobMidtowner's question. yes it can be planned, all you need to do is bride a bunch of flagship stores to open up in close proximity, doesn't matter where or what it looks like.

[Attrill]

What interests me a hell of a lot more than destination shopping areas like Michigan Ave. are the successful retail areas like Clark St., Devon Ave., Chicago Ave., parts of Milwaukee ave., etc. The same types of retail exist all over, are you looking for info on successful retail strips that cater to people who actually live in an area or destination areas that are tourist attractions?

[Crawford]

I'm not really sure what's being discussed.

Rodeo Drive is quite different from Fifth Avenue and Michigan Avenue. Rodeo is a suburban downtown, albeit a world-class, world-famous one.

Fifth and Michigan are both extremely urban, but function very differently. Michigan is characterized by vertical malls and modern mixed-use complexes, while Fifth has more of an older, European-style high street setup. Michigan is the hugely dominant retail corridor within Chicago, while Fifth is rivaled by Madison, 57th, and Soho within NYC.

When I think "urban retail corridor" I think of a walkable, transit oriented shopping area for everyday goods. The examples in this thread are tourist-oriented, flagship store corridors. They offer no lessons for typical urban retail corridors.

Urban retail corridors that "work" do so because of density and transit. If you don't have the two, you won't have successful urban retail.

[RobMidtowner]

:) Thanks everyone for the viewpoints. I guess what I'm trying to figure out is what efforts can be made by a city to help attract and sustain retail in a downtown area. The corridors I named were the only successful ones I know of. Is it a matter of cleaning up the streets and ensuring safety? Is it a matter of having high quality infrastructure such as sidewalks, street lights, benches, etc. or is that stuff really necessary? Should a city promote transit ridership or encourage developers to provide parking? What is the transit ridership like for this type of retail and how important is it for the retail to survive? I know these are open ended questions and I know not every location is the same but I'm trying to see what people think has made certain retail corridors well known and successful.

Attrill, to answer your question, I'm talking about high-end corridors that caters to wealthy residents and tourists.

[dimondpark]

I'm talking about high-end corridors that caters to wealthy residents and tourists.
Rodeo Drive, Dunno if you've ever been there, is really small compared to the other places you mentioned and its successful although its not exactly nonstop vibrancy-dead after 5pm if you ask me . Its very pretty and a few years back they totally revamped it and made it nice, but as stated above, it is suburban in that it feels sterile like other upscale suburban shopping districts-only nicer. Via Rodeo, this faux european alley right there on Rodeo, with very expensive boutiques is nice for tourists but I think it looks like it belongs in Vegas more then LA cause its so doesnt match the area-but in Vegas, nothing matches so it would fit right in to the strip.

I actually prefer the feel of Wilshire as it winds through that area(Rodeo ends there) because it has bigger buildings and is more big-city looking.

Another area that I prefer to Rodeo Drive in LA is Robertson Boulevard. The stores are hipper but just as glamorous, albeit not as famous as Rodeo.

[dimondpark]

^^^SF's Union Square has some of that. Microsoft opened a retail store and it lost money--they eventually closed it. There's still a Sony retail store that I doubt makes anything but it's a great place to see just about anything they make in one place. I ogled my first HDTV there. But I'm sure the Apple Store here makes tons of money--there's invariably a long line at all the cash registers because a lot of the customers are foreign tourists taking advantage of the low dollar (and strong Euro)--but the store also serves as the best place to get an Apple product fixed, especially for warranty repairs.

About Union Square.
The area was always vibrant and offered great stores, but the recent renaissance of sorts has really taken the place to the next level.

Retail Traffic Magazine in September 2007 had this to say about goings on in Union Square:


A few years ago, when San Francisco's economy was in the doldrums after the collapse of the dot-com bubble and the mass devastation that wiped out huge swaths of tech companies in nearby Silicon Valley, brokers weren't envisioning retail properties in Union Square commanding $1,000 per square foot.

But things turned around more quickly than anyone could have imagined. In fact, this year, three sales listed on San Francisco's Post Street exceeded that threshold.

In just the last month the Festival Cos. paid as much as $1,680 per square foot for one of the three stores the Los Angeles-based company bought on that boulevard.

What's going on?

An influx of foreign retailers including H&M and Zara, not to mention upscale national retailers — Juicy Couture, Coach and Ann Taylor, have two or three concepts there, and the recently renovated San Francisco Centre have helped remake San Francisco into an international shopping mecca.

For now, at least, retail activity is extremely healthy throughout the Bay Area, reflecting a rebound in the region's economy marked by strong job and population growth, says Kevin Chin, senior vice president in the San Francisco office of Sperry Van Ness.

The centerpiece to the downtown renaissance is the reopening of the former Emporium department store as Westfield San Francisco Centre. The project cements San Francisco's status as a world-class shopping destination as retailers vie for space there, says Kuzuko Morgan, a retail broker in Cushman-Wakefield's San Francisco office.

The $450 million expansion and renovation of San Francisco Centre, a joint venture between Australian retail real estate giant Westfield Group and Cleveland-based Forest City Enterprises, transformed the historic Emporium department store and added one million square feet, of which 338,000 square feet is occupied by Bloomingdales' new West Coast flagship store.

Recent arrivals include Bristol Farms, a gourmet food market; Out-the-Door, a local Vietnamese restaurant; and women's apparel retailers Mango, Reese and Karen McMillan. Skechers Footwear is taking space across the street from H&M, DeBeers is opening a store, and Barneys New York is opening a West Coast flagship store in San Francisco this month.

All that makes Union Square San Francisco's equivalent of Madison Avenue in New York

Its a matter of always staying on top of trends not only as far as fashion, but also as far as where the economy is going and scaling your future expansion to coincide with that.

Union Square is synonymous with the likes of Gucci, Chanel, Giorgio Armani and the like. But its also home to some very visible budget stores, Ross Dress for Less has a huge downtown SF store. The flagship Old Navy on Market Street-largest store in the whole company, is huge. Walgreens is a block away from Barney's New York, Payless Shoe Source is 1/2 a block from Juicy Couture and so on.

I also think that something that sets these types of areas apart is the concentration of very high end, local retailers. Union Square has Tiffany, Cartier and Bvlgari, but Shreve and Co. is still the most prestigious jeweler in town but its not a national brand, its SF-founded and far more revered by Bay Area wealthy.

Barney's NY, Bloomingdales, Saks Fifth Avenue, Nordstrom, Neiman Marcus and Macy's are all within blocks of each other, but Wilkes Bashford on Sutter Street is considered the most upscale department store in SF(even though its a lot smaller) and the real power players and socialites of SF prefer to go there instead. Believe me, its the store to be seen at in SF. But its a local store.

[10023]

I know this seems obvious, but it seems like it's the actual stores that make people come there. Doesn't matter if its near people, hard to find, in an ugly mall or whatever. There appears to be a point when the number of high end/popular stores reaches a critical mass that other stores simply want to be near them, and people go because it's "talked about". So, to answer RobMidtowner's question. yes it can be planned, all you need to do is bride a bunch of flagship stores to open up in close proximity, doesn't matter where or what it looks like.
Yes, but you can't "bribe them". You just have to have a large population of wealthy consumers in the area.

I stand by my post as definitive.

[BTinSF]

:) The corridors I named were the only successful ones I know of. Is it a matter of cleaning up the streets and ensuring safety? Is it a matter of having high quality infrastructure such as sidewalks, street lights, benches, etc. or is that stuff really necessary? Should a city promote transit ridership or encourage developers to provide parking?

Well then you evidently don't know of what may be the second most successful one (by per sq ft sales of many of the stores) in the country: San Francisco's Union Square. Because you didn't mention it. And it could elucidate what you want to know. What attracts ME (and I think most people) there are (1) the stores (somebody's selling almost anything I might want to buy), (2) the proximity of different kinds of stores (so you can buy some groceries, then buy a Rolex or new digicam or designer gown or book or DVD), (3) easy access by transit (and there's parking too but not so much as you might think--mainly underground or in structures at the periphery of the area), (4) the crowds, many of them tourists. But mostly it's the stores--6 high end department stores (Macy's, Saks, Nieman-Marcus, Nordstrom, Bloomingdales, Barney's New York) and innumerable designer and specialty retail places. The square itself was recently redesigned adding more street furniture and amenities and that's very nice but I don't think it affected business much. The place is basically safe, but there are plenty of homeless panhandlers around like any place in SF. It certainly helps that the retail area is surrounded by highrise hotels crammed with conventioneers and tourists and is served by numerous bus lines, BART and the Muni subway. Nordstrom and Bloomingdales have direct access underground to a subway station (BART and Muni).

[10023]

Fifth and Michigan are both extremely urban, but function very differently. Michigan is characterized by vertical malls and modern mixed-use complexes, while Fifth has more of an older, European-style high street setup. Michigan is the hugely dominant retail corridor within Chicago, while Fifth is rivaled by Madison, 57th, and Soho within NYC.

SoHo has emerged as a second front that's trendier and younger, given NYC's staggering wealth, the fact that downtown is now the chic place to live, and because it's a pain in the ass to get to Midtown and the Upper East Side from below Houston.

But Fifth, Madison and 57th are all the same retail "district". There aren't stores duplicated on more than one of the above streets that I can think of. It's just that once you get near the park, the shopping avenue shifts east a block along 57th and then heads north on Madison. There isn't much retail on Madison south of 57th, and there isn't really retail on 5th north of 57th other than the Apple store (I consider BG to be "at" 57th).

It's one urban retail corridor, it's just got a kink in the middle.

[BTinSF]

Wilkes Bashford on Sutter Street is considered the most upscale department store in SF(even though its a lot smaller) and the real power players and socialites of SF prefer to go there instead. Believe me, its the store to be seen at in SF. But its a local store.

By me, it's considered the most upscale menswear specialty retailer. ;)

But you're basically right. One reason they all go there is because Wilkes himself is one of them. Also because I think for a long time he may have been the only place in town to get a Brioni suit.

[Steely Dan]

Yes, but you can't "bribe them". You just have to have a large population of wealthy consumers in the area.

I stand by my post as definitive.

your post about needing well-off people living and working nearby to drive these famous retail strips is on the money, but it leaves out an extremely important 3rd part of the equation, and that is well-off tourists staying in nearby hotels as well.

in chicago, tourists play a large role in driving the magnificent mile. i've known people who've traveled to chicago from places around the midwest for the direct purpose to shop on michigan avenue. yes, it is that big of a draw regardless of whether or not some see it as over-chained and a bit anti-septic (ie. it's not the "real chicago").

[BTinSF]

SoHo has emerged as a second front that's trendier and younger, given NYC's staggering wealth, the fact that downtown is now the chic place to live, and because it's a pain in the ass to get to Midtown and the Upper East Side from below Houston.



SoHo reminds me a lot of places in the Union Square area. Here's some pics I took:

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b6d839b3127cce8a6693b8fd7300000016100Acsmblw0ZsmLA

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b6d839b3127cce8a6693bd7c4600000016100Acsmblw0ZsmLA

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b6d839b3127cce8a6693befd7500000016100Acsmblw0ZsmLA

[VivaLFuego]

That is kinda sad that stores can not make a profit with that many people going by. Makes you wonder what is wrong with our downtowns that these stores can't make a profit, but their little suburban mall stores can.

It's not for lack of sales, but rather because the rent is so high.

[Chicago3rd]

That is kinda sad that stores can not make a profit with that many people going by. Makes you wonder what is wrong with our downtowns that these stores can't make a profit, but their little suburban mall stores can.

They wouldn't be doing it if there wasn't a pay off...lol.

I believe the 3rd largest shopping district is the Pilsan Corridor. At least it was a few years ago. Wonder what the Clyborn mess has done with all the numbers.

[10023]

your post about needing well-off people living and working nearby to drive these famous retail strips is on the money, but it leaves out an extremely important 3rd part of the equation, and that is well-off tourists staying in nearby hotels as well.

in chicago, tourists play a large role in driving the magnificent mile. i've known people who've traveled to chicago from places around the midwest for the direct purpose to shop on michigan avenue. yes, it is that big of a draw regardless of whether or not some see it as over-chained and a bit anti-septic (ie. it's not the "real chicago").
Well yes, obviously, and that's true of Fifth Avenue or Bond Street of the Champs Elysees as well.

But it's the local wealth that creates the retail corridor. The tourists come afterwards and make it grow to such proportions. Fifth and Madison had exclusive shops catering to New York's elite long before the term "tourism" even existed. And Chicago's retail district shifted from State Street to Michigan Avenue because people like Arthur Rubloff saw the benefits of proximity to the city's elite on the Gold Coast.

These two examples show that:

1) Exclusive, successful retail corridors can exist, albeit on a smaller scale, in the absence of substantial tourism by catering to a local population with significant spending power.

2) With equal levels of tourism (State Street attracted the same scores of visitors that Michigan Avenue does today), the most successful retail corridor will gravitate toward the local wealthy population.

The fact is that these sorts of things spring up wherever the wealthy elite can be found, and everyone else them comes to ogle and have a taste of that lifestyle. Moderate priced stores then move in, for the very logical reason that you may as well give these people something to buy when they're finished window shopping the French and Italian luxury goods houses.




I believe the 3rd largest shopping district is the Pilsan Corridor. At least it was a few years ago. Wonder what the Clyborn mess has done with all the numbers.
I remember reading in Crain's that the "Clybourn mess", or at least the greater area including Halsted and North Avenue, was now the #2 retail district in the city. Block 37 will probably shift it back to State Street, but aside from Marshall Field's being on State this doesn't really surprise me.

[totheskies]

What difference does it make if the retail is predominantly tourist oriented, or if the customers are local? Customers are customers, and money is money.

[dimondpark]

Yes, but you can't "bribe them". You just have to have a large population of wealthy consumers in the area.
Its funny you should bring this up. I believe that Cincinnati actually did "pay" retailers to open up in their downtown and a lot of those stores wound up being not very profitable to the retailers.

But city leaders recognized the importance of strong downtown retail. Dunno how its doing now.

[dimondpark]

SoHo reminds me a lot of places in the Union Square area. Here's some pics I took:

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b6d839b3127cce8a6693b8fd7300000016100Acsmblw0ZsmLA

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b6d839b3127cce8a6693bd7c4600000016100Acsmblw0ZsmLA

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b6d839b3127cce8a6693befd7500000016100Acsmblw0ZsmLA]

I say the exact same thing everytime I go to NY and happen to visit SoHo-well, except for the Palm Trees:)

Anyway here are some shots of Union Square in San Francisco from flickr.com

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/187/420195871_a9e5d0f505_o.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/153/420195359_bd54857a9e_o.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/45/191219282_5e32de2a3d_b.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/174/454815595_f152ae0ac4_o.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/163/427618557_3bd4343903_o.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/146/353939907_2456f13beb_b.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/40/122200973_6c9379047f_b.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/154/427152440_ecd84f3c49_o.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/154/427152468_733fa424cb_o.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/192/479528865_3233353de6_o.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/120/293031462_e99be28d5c_o.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1046/862631505_2bb5f1c78c_b.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1026/862627825_13cb4b6b16_b.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1088/679784433_7346d09d75.jpg?v=0

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/23/29359818_305488b635_o.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/78/226533793_1866ffd058_b.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/51/177456881_2b90fce18f_b.jpg[/QUOTE]

[RobMidtowner]

Thanks for the pics BTinSF and dimondpark. You're right, I had no idea about Union Square but that is exactly what I'm talking about. I live in an area that is transitioning toward this type of retail development and I want it to become as successful as these appear to be. Do you think these locations have similar parking requirements as a typical suburban mall or does transit/walking account for a good amount of customers? I would imagine in a place like Chicago that a lot of people don't drive to the Mile but I could be wrong. :shrug:

[smArTaLlone]

Rodeo Drive, Dunno if you've ever been there, is really small compared to the other places you mentioned and its successful although its not exactly nonstop vibrancy-dead after 5pm if you ask me . Its very pretty and a few years back they totally revamped it and made it nice, but as stated above, it is suburban in that it feels sterile like other upscale suburban shopping districts-only nicer. Via Rodeo, this faux european alley right there on Rodeo, with very expensive boutiques is nice for tourists but I think it looks like it belongs in Vegas more then LA cause its so doesnt match the area-but in Vegas, nothing matches so it would fit right in to the strip.

I actually prefer the feel of Wilshire as it winds through that area(Rodeo ends there) because it has bigger buildings and is more big-city looking.

Another area that I prefer to Rodeo Drive in LA is Robertson Boulevard. The stores are hipper but just as glamorous, albeit not as famous as Rodeo.

I agree. Rodeo drive probably doesn't fit the description of what RobMidtowner is looking for. It's more comparable to the more exclusive boutique oriented districts like Worth Ave in Palm Beach and Newberry in Boston than Michigan Ave.

Of course Michigan Ave and Midtown Manhattan have exlcusive boutiques but the overall experience much more varied with a wider variety of retailers, not to mention the fact that they are in large urban centers.

[totheskies]

Lots of people living and working nearby. They have to be people with lots of money. And the neighborhood has to be relatively crime free and attractive to look at.

That's about it.


Lol, so poor people or commuters have no place in urban retail????? :koko:

[downtownpdx]

Another aspect of a good retail corridor, I think, is quality public spaces. I'm drawn to the neighborhood streets that have a mix of housing and retail, calmed auto traffic, and inviting sidewalks that make you want to linger and enjoy the street scene. They develop successful retail partly b/c they are places you want to "be." Part of downtown Portland's appeal is the plazas, parks, easy public transportation, and attentive street landscaping. But it's a challenge to maintain its appeal, when "lifestyle" centers in the suburbs draw people with free parking and the absence of urban ills, like panhandling.

But even with cutesy European-style corridors, these outdoor malls aren't somewhere I want to be. They are undoubtedly successful, but to me the diversity of the urban environment, (with its local businesses, too), will always be the deciding factor -- shops, offices, hotels, restaurants/bars/cafes, and every walk of life. Part of its success hinges on keeping it interesting, while not sanitizing it into another urban "lifestyle center" to compete with the suburbs.

[10023]

Lol, so poor people or commuters have no place in urban retail????? :koko:
Well, commuters typically don't do much shopping near work, which is why places Manhattan's Financial District haven't traditionally had much retail until people started moving down there to live. And poor neighborhoods generally have a dearth of retail period.

So no, not the type we're talking about. There are busy retail corridors that cater to lower income people, particularly in ethnic neighborhoods, but places like the examples listed in this thread cannot exist with just commuters and poor people.

[mhays]

Lol, so poor people or commuters have no place in urban retail????? :koko:

Of course they do. Every downtown ought to have a good range of stores for people of all income levels. But the poor don't buy as much.

[fflint]

Well, commuters typically don't do much shopping near work
They do in San Francisco, if my own experience working several years in the Financial District is any indication. My suburban coworkers regularly shop Union Square (and, to a lesser extent, Embarcadero Center) at lunchtime and after work--all the time. I do so occasionally as well.

[dimondpark]

They do in San Francisco, if my own experience working several years in the Financial District is any indication. My suburban coworkers regularly shop Union Square (and, to a lesser extent, Embarcadero Center) at lunchtime and after work--all the time. I do so occasionally as well.

Totally true. DT SF is a place where you itch to be outside all time. Shopping during lunch is normal there.

[BTinSF]

They do in San Francisco, if my own experience working several years in the Financial District is any indication. My suburban coworkers regularly shop Union Square (and, to a lesser extent, Embarcadero Center) at lunchtime and after work--all the time. I do so occasionally as well.

I they didn't, Embarcadero Center almost certainly wouldn't exist. I doubt anybody goes there if they don't work there or have some other reason to be there (tourists checking out Justin Herman Plaza, people going to the Embarcadero Cinema)--but there are so many office workers in the immediate vicinity it seems to do OK (not great).

[BTinSF]

Do you think these locations have similar parking requirements as a typical suburban mall or does transit/walking account for a good amount of customers? I would imagine in a place like Chicago that a lot of people don't drive to the Mile but I could be wrong. :shrug:

I would guess that the majority of Union Square shoppers walk or take transit. There is a parking garage under the square itself and several others in peripheral locations (Sutter St, Mission St., Post St.) and some on-street parking but I bet these are utilized mostly by suburban shoppers from Marin and San Mateo Counties (places that don't have good transit connections to downtown). Many of the shoppers and people you see on the sidewalks of the area are tourists staying at hotels that are also scattered all around the area (Moscone Center convention hall is only a few blocks away with a number of hotels there as well). Many of the rest are locals who use the many excellent transit connections: BART and Muni subways, numerous bus lines, Market St streetcars and even the Powell St. cable car.

[miketoronto]

These areas have to offer the best selection and stores in the region.
The reason people go to these areas is becuase of that, and also the style of the area.
But you can be sure people trek down to say Union Square in SF, because MACY'S has something like 8 floors and way more selection then the 2 floor MACY'S in the suburbs.
And on top of that you gotta have the unique stores you can't find anywhere else. I actually hear that Union Square is great in that regard, in that you have all the chains, but all the little side streets have unique retail?? That is what a SF local told me once. Don't know if it is still the same way.

These areas however are not suppored mainly by the high class residents in the area. Major areas like Michigan Ave and Union Square neet to be a metropolitan wide draw, or those stores would never be that large, etc.

[miketoronto]

Its funny you should bring this up. I believe that Cincinnati actually did "pay" retailers to open up in their downtown and a lot of those stores wound up being not very profitable to the retailers.

But city leaders recognized the importance of strong downtown retail. Dunno how its doing now.


You are right about that. Cincinnati actually paid Saks money to renovate their store and not leave downtown. Ontop of that Saks had to sign an agreement that they would not open a suburban store, within the Cincinnati metro area.

Pittsburgh also paid two department stores to open downtown, with the agreement they would pay back the loans to the city when the stores started making a certain amount of money. Well the stores never made the money, and closed down, and Pittsburgh lost the money.

Interesting thing though, is that Pittsburgh did not pay Kauffmann's(now MACY'S) or Saks to stay open downtown, and those two stores seem to be doing just fine. The stores they paid to open, could not compete.

[LordMandeep]

our retail corridor "yorkville" use to be hippy central and it become the centre of the young rich and posh.

[WilliamTheArtist]

Though not a retail corridor, the closest thing to nice shopping in an urban environment in Tulsa is Utica Square. It is the oldest shopping center in the state and was actually one of the first suburban shopping centers in the US. It was built in the 50s and is attractive because its in the posh area of town and has some higher end stores. Its an interesting mix of peaceful, relaxing elegance and almost always bustling, it has some old carillon bells that regularly play, large trees, fountains and small gardens, yet looking up in every direction it is surrounded by good sized buildings. Kind of a little oasis, its a great mixture and environment. People are often shocked that we have places like Sacks there. I am sure it makes a decent profit with all the money in the area. I get a kick out of showing people the grocery store there with its chandeliers and every single item perfectly, perfectly placed. Every once in a while ya see the little old lady with her driver walking beside her or waiting at the door and one of the people who work at the store pushing her cart and putting the items in the basket she points at. Last bit of that ooold oil money and way of life.

[forumly_chgoman]

In the case of Chicago, there was for a long time (and to a certain extent still is) a shortage of retail in the neighborhoods. This was certainly not planned it just sort of happened. Shoppers had to go 'downtown' (Mag mile or state street) because there wasn't a mall within city limits. This allowed Mich ave developed a certain level of cache and even as retail keeps sprouting up in the neighborhoods now people keep going.

That and there's a sizeable tourist base on and around Mich ave and a sizeable upper and middle-upper class to keep the high end stores packed.
That news to me and to anyone who grew up a few blocks off of devon ave.

[MolsonExport]

Montreal's Rue Sainte Catherine represents the epitome of a successful urban retail corridor, and has for more than 80 years (notwithstanding the rough period of the early/mid 1990s).
Then
http://data2.collectionscanada.ca/ap/c/c021279.jpg
Now:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/db/Viewstc.jpg/800px-Viewstc.jpg