The Greensboro Triumph Center downtown mega-project

[urbanscraper]

More details are emerging about the secret downtown mega project in Greensboro, NC. The name of it will be called "The Greensboro Triumph Center ". The price tag of this project is now topping $300 million and would inlcude:

- 150,000 square feet of prime office space (enough space for an office tower)
- 20,000 square feet of retail space
- 250 residential units (apartments/luxury condos)
- restaurant/entertainment venue that could support national acts and seat over 1,000 people (sounds like House of Blues to me)
- four-star 500 room hotel and an attached 200,000 sqaure foot convention center and shopping court (the hotel could be as tall as 18-stories)
- a 200,000 sqaure foot entertainment complex that could include a multiplex theater, bowling alley, roller rink, billards hall, games, rides and IMAX theater.

http://www.news-record.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070809/NEWSREC0101/70809028

[urbanscraper]

'Iffy' project up to $300 million


GREENSBORO — The downtown mystery project now has a name — Greensboro Triumph Center — a larger footprint encompassing three blocks and a higher price, according to details obtained Thursday.

The development's price, once about $200 million, has now escalated to $300 million as the still unidentified developer has fleshed out details, said Ray Gibbs, the former president of Downtown Greensboro Inc., who now serves as a consultant for the developer.

Gibbs, a senior urban planner with Chas. H. Sells in Mooresville, said the six-building project would include three components:

* a multiuse complex that includes 150,000 square feet of prime office space; about 20,000 square feet of retail space; about 200 apartments and 50 luxury condominiums; a restaurant/entertainment venue; and a 1,000-vehicle parking deck.

This part of the development would include three connected buildings, the tallest of which would be about 18 stories.

The entertainment site could support national acts and seat more than 1,000 people, Gibbs said.

* a 500-room, four-star luxury hotel and an attached, 200,000-square-foot convention center and shopping court. The hotel could be as tall as 20 stories and would include a restaurant, spa and parking deck.

* a 200,000-square-foot entertainment complex that could include a four-screen movie theater; a 20-lane "cosmic" bowling alley; a roller rink; 16 to 20 billiard tables; interactive games, simulator rides and children's rides; and perhaps, a 3-D IMAX theater. This section would also have a parking deck.

Gibbs' announcement Thursday does not confirm that the project would be built, but it does show that it is still progressing.

"There are still many moving pieces and many obstacles yet to be overcome," Gibbs said. "If the project were to be completed in total, it would likely exceed $300 million."

Gibbs said the tallest building in the proposed project would be the hotel, which would be about the same size as downtown's other high-rises.

He said a $300 million investment would equal more than half the total taxable value that exists in downtown today.

"It's a pretty big deal," he said.

Downtown experts say such an investment would have a major impact on the center city.

"If we can pull that off we have certainly arrived," said Keith Debbage, a professor of urban geography at UNCG, who has been briefed on the project. "It could be the final piece of the puzzle for our downtown ... if it happens. If, if, if."

Sherry Adams, interim president of Downtown Greensboro Inc., offered a similar perspective.

"I think it moves us into the next league," Adams said. "This has more of a big-town feel while still protecting that small-town atmosphere."

Gibbs said the Triumph Center could turn downtown into a regional destination with its entertainment complex and the convention center.

He said the developer feels the convention center would not compete directly with venues such as the Joseph S. Koury Convention Center on High Point Road, but would help the city attract groups that need more space than one center can provide.

Gibbs said the name for the project could change.

"It really is a working name," he said. "We were trying to come up with something that showed this was a significant project, something seen as a victory for the redevelopment of downtown."

Gibbs refused to identify where the Triumph Center would be located. But all signs indicate that the project would go in three blocks on downtown's eastern side.

The residential/retail/restaurant/office segment likely would take up the Lincoln National Corp. parking lot bounded by Davie Street, East Market Street and Friendly Avenue.

The hotel/conference center would probably go in the block bounded by Church Street, East Market Street, Friendly Avenue and the Norfolk Southern railroad tracks.

That block includes the City of Greensboro's transit authority maintenance center and a print shop owned by Lincoln National.

"We can confirm that our property — the print shop and the parking lot — are under consideration," said Sol Kovach, a Lincoln spokesman.

City Manager Mitchell Johnson said, "There has been no offer (to purchase) that I am aware of and I suspect that I would be aware of that almost immediately."

The entertainment complex would occupy space at the northeast corner of Church Street and Friendly Avenue that is owned by the Weaver Foundation.

Efforts to reach Skip Moore, president of the foundation, were unsuccessful. However, Moore said last month that the developer had expressed interest in the 4.3 acres and that "very preliminary" discussion had started.

Gibbs said the developer is in a position to secure funding for "the bulk of the project, but to do that he first needs to secure the necessary land at a reasonable price and at a reasonable time frame. That has proven harder than anticipated .... We are running out of time."

Gibbs said the developer has instructed him to consider other sites downtown and in other cities.

"I don't know that there is a date that is make or break," Gibbs said. "But it is pretty much in the next 30 days."

[urbanscraper]

looks like this project is getting bigger and bigger and believe it or not, it can get even bigger, I know. ;) I would expect the final project to be closer to half a billion dollars if built out in its entirety (with multiple high-rises). The main developement company, which is unknown, is based in Orlando, Florida but there are local Greensboro developers and international investors involved as well.

[KB0679]

This will be BIG for Greensboro if it happens. I've got my fingers crossed for you guys.

[Dale]

For Greensboro's sake, I hope the Orlando developer is Cameron Kuhn. He's currently on very shaky ground financially.

[urbanscraper]

For Greensboro's sake, I hope the Orlando developer is Cameron Kuhn. He's currently on very shaky ground financially.

yea Well I hear he is a BIG time developer. I think that there are numerous development companies/investors involved. Part of this project sounds like a Disney Quest with the "interactive games" and the "simulator rides" I think somebody is trying to compete with Disney because Disney is planning these hotel/entertainment complexes too.

The restaraunt/entertainemnt venue in this project (that seats 1,000) has been said it will draw national acts. It sound to me EXACTLY like a House of Blues. A typical House of Blues seats between 1,000 and 2,000 people. Greensboro already has a House of BLues connection. The N Club in downtown Greensboro is a House of Blues network venue and host some House of Blues acts already. Greensboro is also consitantly on the list of cities for House of Blues tour acts as well. The Nclub has been so succesful I think they want to build a full blown House of Blues now. many Celebrities have already come to downtown Greensboro as patrons in the N Club and Much restaurant/nightclub so downtown Greensboro is already developing a reputation. Even Girls Gone Wild came to a nightclub in downtown Greensboro and MTV and the tv show Extra have done segments on Greensboro's downtown nightlife. Keith Debbage, a UNCG professor who has been briefed on this project, said if Greensboro lands this, surely "Greensboro will have arrived". I know that despite everything that was revealed in the article above, that aint all of it and I also know there is a bigger plan for this project and can be scaled up even more. Shucks, its already bigger in scope than the EpiCentre in Charlotte. This is a very massive project for Greensboro and NC and If built in its entirety, I would expect this to be closer to half a billion dollars

[x.man]

I keep hearing an alternative scenario...one that includes a local developer who is trying to woo a larger developer to the table by pressuring city government to contribute public funds to this project before city council experiences major turn-over in the next election process in November. The trouble is, some city council members don't feel the urgency to approve the expenditure of public funds for this project, so these "leaks" to the press have been used to encourage them to reconsider their positions. In the meantime, the allusions keep getting bigger and better, using terms like "Greensboro will arrive" (as if it isnt already arrived). The city is being asked to finance the project using TIF financing, as have been used in Greenville SC. Some people, such as mayoral candidate Milt Kern, are highly suspicious of TIF funding, and claim their use has put Greenville at a long term disadvantage by maximizing their debt. If Kern gets elected, as it looks like he will, the developers are afraid that this form of financing will be taken off the table by the new mayor, and this project not allowed. There is also a major issue in securing the land for the project, because most is owned by Lincoln Financial of Philadelphia, who also has little interest in progressing this project. The project could also end up being displaced to the old Bellemeade Village site, which will likely run into strong opposition from Fisher Park residents...something the developers are trying to avoid (because negative public debate will kill the public financing side of this project). Will Lincoln Financial be motivated to sell their property before Milt takes over as mayor in three months? Will city council fawn over the lofty plans of high-rises and Disney-like development? Will Greensboro bend over backwards in order to "arrive"? Stay tuned...

[urbanscraper]

I thought the mayor of Greensboro didnt have any power other than preciding over city council meetings? Those kind of changes for funding projects have to be made by the entire city council and I doubt they would support such a change just because Milton Kern wants that kind of funding gone. (that of course if he becomes mayor) but probabally the biggest foe of this project on city council is Tom Phillips im sure, and maybe Sandy Carmany who seems to support nothing unless its in her district or if its P.A.R.T. related. Sandra Anderson Groat is difficult to read. she seems to be on the fence on alot of contraversal issues. Maybe that has to do with her inexperience with being on council since she is so new. But my gut feeling tells me that the majority of them support this based on the way they have supported other big projects. the people on city council who I belive would support this are Mayor Keith Holliday, Mike Barber, Yvonne Johnson, T Diane Bellamy Small, Goldie Wells and maybe Florence Gatten. The others are the ones I think would likely oppose this, especially the ultra conservative Tom Phillips who doesnt like spending a dime of any public money on any private venture.


"so these "leaks" to the press have been used to encourage them to reconsider their positions."

I agree with you there because a reliable source in the know told me the exact same thing but there are other stumbling blocks, not related to city leaders or the land in question which I wont bring up because I promised this person I would not tell........BUT....the project is STILL moving forward..at least for now. Based on what I was told, I think this project will move forward is some form or fashion even if it doesnt get the Lincoln National land. I think its more of a matter of how big will this be. Will it be built to its largest plan or will this thing wind up getting scaled down because the developers cant secure all the land they need? I do know they can secure the land for a scaled down version, probablly on the Weaver/Old Duke Power Site and maybe the city property across East Market Street next to the Lincoln National print shop. The News & Record parking site is also a good alternative because the News & Record said the would support this project by selling their land for it.

[x.man]

I thought the mayor of Greensboro didnt have any power other than preciding over city council meetings?

The mayor has a great deal of power in providing leadersip and shepherding projects such as this one through the governmental process, if he/she so chooses. Mayoral support is certainly not complete, but it carries weight.

[urbanscraper]

The mayor has a great deal of power in providing leadersip and shepherding projects such as this one through the governmental process, if he/she so chooses. Mayoral support is certainly not complete, but it carries weight.

also I wouldnt see it being a done deal Milton Kern getting elected when there is Yvonne Johnson who is running. Her being a female wont hurt her because before Mayor Holliday ran we had a female mayor. Yvonne Johnson certainly has the political experience to win that race as she even served as Mayor protem and was briefly "mayor" when Keith Holliday took a break after the death of his daughter. Johnson has just as good of a chance as Milton Kern in my opinion.

[urbanscraper]

A mystery developer for Greensororo Triumph Center revealed

Mystery Developer Revealed

The enormous mixed-use development project that has been the talk of downtown Greensboro for months is being led by a Greensboro resident whose professional background is virtually unknown to those with whom he's been discussing his ideas.



Greensboro, NC -- His name is Isaac Douglas Cain. He's in his late 40s and married. He heads a company called Exempt Inc., which he listed with the N.C. Secretary of State in May 2005. And it is believed that he has some experience buying and selling real estate.

He has also been eying downtown Greensboro for several years while considering a variety of projects. For the past six months, he has been concentrating solely on something of a moving target called Greensboro Triumph Center, a proposed mega development that would cover three city blocks and include a convention center, high-rise hotel, apartments, luxury condos, office space and entertainment venues such as a 1,000-seat auditorium, movie theaters and bowling alleys.

Over the course of the summer, the price tag for Cain's proposal has escalated from a staggering $150 million to an astonishing $300 million, or roughly eight times larger than the current renovation of the 17-story Wachovia tower by developer Roy Carroll.

Meanwhile, everyone who has met Cain, some who have been impressed, some who are skeptical and bewildered, confirm that he has never before attempted anything of such a magnitude, nor do they know much about him or his professional credentials.

Cain declined our request for an interview this week, but in an e-mail sent Tuesday, he lamented that the project was a topic of public discussion at such an early stage.

"I purposely wanted to keep this thing quiet until we got key components in place – land acquisition, the total team and a surety guarantee to back the project, so that it would be exciting news for our Center City. I am a minority developer," wrote Cain, who is African-Ameican, "that took an interest in our downtown. I love this city, and I have convinced key developers to invest their money here."

Cain is essentially asking for both patience and anonymity as he continues to pursue his sprawling, complex project.

But the mere size and scope of it, some might say its shear audacity, prompted several community leaders to call the News amp; Record recently and insist on some public accountability from those behind the project.

This week, Jim Melvin, president of the Bryan Foundation and one of downtown Greensboro's most influential forces, told us, "I listened to him (Cain) for 45 minutes before I told him I had to go."

Melvin says Cain has no economic feasibility studies, seemed unfamiliar with the city's demographics, doesn't seem to know the extent of the environmental problems posed by the properties he's targeted and declined to reveal the sources of his financial backing.

"You can't take a project like this seriously unless you know the financial standing of the developer," Melvin says. "I think that's a legitimate request."

Another public critic, commercial broker Robbie Perkins, who hasn't met Cain, adds, "If this deal is real, it has to gain some credibility. The way it's been approached so far, it's not a credible project."

Such comments demonstrate clearly that Greensboro can be a tough town for inexperienced newcomers, however ambitious or well-intentioned they might be.

For example, the land Cain is eyeing is owned by entities such as the Weaver Foundation, Lincoln Financial and the city, none of whom need to sell, and each of whom probably won't sell if they have serious doubts about the developer.

Sources say Cain has triggered more questions in meetings with local leaders than he has engendered the trust and confidence he needs to build in himself and his plans.

Ray Gibbs, the former president of Downtown Greensboro Inc., who is now working as a design consultant for Cain, has seen all manners of dreamers pass through downtown over the past seven years. He tends to give everyone the benefit of the doubt until he's proven wrong.

And while he says he will no longer serve as an unofficial spokesman for Cain or his project, Gibbs says that he remains impressed with Cain's vision, his determination and his ability to connect with financial backers (still unnamed) from Wall Street to the West Coast.

"There is a conditional letter of credit for $300 million; I've seen the letter," Gibbs says. "It is a national financial organization. That's all I can say. But Isaac is continuing to meet with financial backers. He is nearing contracts on two pieces of land.

"Look, this is an iffy project, no question about it. Anything this big runs huge risks. But he's not making this stuff up. It's not a hoax."

When skeptics point to unsold condos downtown, empty office space and hotel rooms, and an existing suburban convention center already recognized as among the best midmarket spots on the East Coast, Gibbs says, "The current market is not really an issue. It would likely be two or three years before such a project could even come on line."

Gibbs is not entirely alone is his desire to give Cain the benefit of the doubt. Mayor Keith Holliday, while stressing the long-shot nature of Cain's quest , isn't ready to write him off.

The mayor says he's not bothered by his lack of knowledge of Cain's background or experience, adding, "Based on the locations I've seen, based on the expectations of who would patronize the project, I think it has a better-than-average chance of success, if it's completed and comes in with enough capital.

"That's the biggest challenge: having enough money to get it off the ground. Right now, I don't know if he does."

[urbanscraper]

after reading todays uupdate in the paper it appears Cain really is close to aquiring land for this project (which we already know where the tracts are) While this guy is just a real esate broker for the most part Gibbs says he can put the people together to do this project. Gibbs says there are "national heavy weight people, financial instituions and very experienced developers involved in this proct" That being said there are enough experience people involved to make this a very credible and realistic project.

[winston]

You have to admit, with each passing article the credibility of this project is going down the drain. No way is the Weaver foundation going to sell their land to this flake.

The Business Journal editor was on the Good Morning show Friday morning almost laughing at the possibility of this project happening. Urbanscraper, you can hype all you want, but the facts are starting to emerge and they do not look encouraging.

[urbanscraper]

Winston give it up......todays article is more encouraging. The developer said he was close to purchasing a site for this project so something is happening. Am I sensing a little Greensboro envy? judging by the tone of your comments, you sound like you dont want it to happen....shame on you. The worst that can happen is this thing getting scaled back.

I did some editing to this phot to see what Greensboro's skyline would look like if these buildings are built in the locations they are proposed

BEFORE

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/62/224778960_410d66304c.jpg

AFTER

http://www.downtownstadium.org/NEWCITYVIEW1.JPG

[urbanscraper]

Ive added the 30-story Center Pointe II tower that developer Roy Caroll could build. Pretty impressive huh? and these buildings could actually get built. I think it will be at least 5 years before Roy Caroll decides to even move forward with Center Pointe II.

Center Pointe II would block the 21-story Wachovia Tower from this view though. I haven't even added the planned Federal Courthouse in the picture which could be between 15-18 stories. The problem is that funding has been delayed due to the Iraq war. otherwise this thing would have been under construction last year. But realistically if Triumph Center is built and Roy Caroll moves forward with Center Pointe II, Greensboro's skyline has a chance of looking similar to this.


The Boro
http://www.downtownstadium.org/NEWCITYVIEW3.JPG

[x.man]

...todays article is more encouraging. The developer said he was close to purchasing a site for this project so something is happening. Am I sensing a little Greensboro envy?

It is statements like this that have encouraged me not to comment on this thread.

[winston]

Again, I live in Greensboro, not Winston, I rarely even go to Winston. I am just a realist, not a cheerleader. It costs real money to build these projects, not monopoly money. The economics must be in place before people invest and financial institutions loan money.

Step away, and look at greensboro from an outsiders view. It is not a wealthy city with strong job growth, and please do not hype Fed Ex and Honda Jet which are a drop in the bucket compared to the executive level textile and furniture jobs that we have lost.

Issac Cain has not made a business case nor shown demographic studies on how his project will make money. This is why this is just a dream at this point.

[GSO CHINWAGGER]

:jester: Gotta love all the BUZZ this is generating!!! Can't you just feel it ?!?!? "Our $500 million downtown project now has a name – Rhino Towers. Although we have not bought any property or obtained options to buy any property, we are eyeing an underutilized piece of property across the street. The first floor of one of the buildings in this block is mainly occupied by offices for part-time workers who only work at night and are rarely there. Two buildings in this block are made up mainly of large open spaces, the style is called Brutalism, and it is too kind by half. But we're thinking a 35-, maybe 40-story main building, surrounded by three or four buildings of anything from six to 20 stories. Financing, land, an architect and an anchor tenant, all are up in the air, but once a few minor details like that are taken care of we will be ready to go."

[Cosmoboy]

It is statements like this that have encouraged me not to comment on this thread.

I fully agree.

[urbanscraper]

Again, I live in Greensboro, not Winston, I rarely even go to Winston. I am just a realist, not a cheerleader. It costs real money to build these projects, not monopoly money. The economics must be in place before people invest and financial institutions loan money.

Step away, and look at greensboro from an outsiders view. It is not a wealthy city with strong job growth, and please do not hype Fed Ex and Honda Jet which are a drop in the bucket compared to the executive level textile and furniture jobs that we have lost.

Issac Cain has not made a business case nor shown demographic studies on how his project will make money. This is why this is just a dream at this point.

folks we are not talking about some big multi 60 story project or some big 2,000 room mega resort downtown hotel here. I think people have been under-estimating Greensboro and Winston-Salem quite frankly, and these two cities are capable of so much more. I think people need to get rid of old perceptions about the Triad cities because time after time they have proven people wrong. If this were proposed anywhere else, even smaller cities like Greenville, SC, Chattanooga TN, people would have the feeling it would happen. Why there is a perception Greensboro seems to be the only mid-sized city in the south that cant have these kind of things beats me. I do think this project has been handled out of the ordianary, but at the same time its not an ordinary project. I think there is a reason this project is so secret. Maybe disclosing everything too soon would kill the project. We just have to be patient. I think Greensboro can support two convention centers in my opinion. I think there are times when the Koury is booked on certain dates, the downtown convention center can handle other conventions. Consider the fact that Raleigh's downtown conventon center will have 500,000 square feet of convention space. The Koury Convention Center and the downtown Convention Center combined would equal about 500,000 square feet. skeptics question why Greensboro needs two convention centers. Its not about the number of convention centers, its about the amount of convention space. Just look at the two convention centers as being one facilty with 500,000 square feet.

As for the entertainment and restaurant venues in this project, there wont be a problem there. certainly downtown and the Triad for that matter could support more restaurants, a bowling alley, skating rink and the other entertainment attractions mentioned.

In the residential aspect of it, people are imediately skeptical when they see this project has over 200 units. But keep in mind the bulk of those units are apartments and there is a pretty good demand for downtown apartments. In actuality there are only about 50 condos which is around the number of current condo projects going up downtown.

As for the office space, yes 150,000 square feet is quite a bit of space in a soft office market but keep in mind there may be a company or companies looking to locate downtown and see this project as a means to do it. There are a number of things we dont know about just yet. and maybe some companies dont want it to be known yet they are looking at downtown, much like the 15-story office tower that was suppose to be built next to First Horizon Park. Nobody knew about the company's interest in downtown or the tower itself until after the deal fell through and most still dont know about it. and we still dont know the identity of the company that was interested.

All in all this project is doable. Apparently the finacing for this is there. There are enough big time developers and financing companies involved in this to make it work. I think the developers and the community just have to have the will to make it happen.

You dont need thousands of jobs coming into the city to build a development like this. Besides Issac Cain has a letter of credit for $300 million so obviously hes proven to organizations that could finance this thing that its a doable project.

quite frankly, im tired of the negative naysayers that says Greensboro cant do this or Greensboro cant have this. 10 years ago there actually were people who said Greensboro would NEVER get a new downtown ballpark because the economics would never be there for it. They claimed then that taxpayers would never support building a new multi-million dollar stadium and that a private source of funding would never emerge.....well look what happened. So folks instead of try to discourge this development from happening, be a little optimistic and stop trying to interpret what you think you know about the local economy. People have tried to use Greensboro's so called economic situation as a reason why things cant happen here and thats certainly not stopping all those people who pack South Elm Street after 3 am.

If this happens, none of this project wont be online for at least another 2 or 3 years. Greensboro's economic situation will be much better and certainly downtown will be a more vibrant place.

[urbanscraper]

It is statements like this that have encouraged me not to comment on this thread.

I replied that way because of the tone of Winston's comment and his comment about Issac Cain which was uncalled for. This guy is trying to do something special for our downtown and he called him a flake. Thats Why I responded that way x.man.

"You have to admit, with each passing article the credibility of this project is going down the drain. No way is the Weaver foundation going to sell their land to this flake.

The Business Journal editor was on the Good Morning show Friday morning almost laughing at the possibility of this project happening. Urbanscraper, you can hype all you want, but the facts are starting to emerge and they do not look encouraging"

[urbanscraper]

Well its interesting because Justin Catanoso with the Triad Business Journal reported this morning on WFMY about how local developers have said they think there is a market for all the elements in the Triumph Center and other projects downtown including the convention center. So Issac Cain's proposal might not be pie in the sky after all.

Justin also reported that a boutique hotel could be attached to the Elm Street Center which has a comedy club, Churhills' Resaurant and the Empire Room and 70,000 square feet of space for meetings. The folks at Elm Street Center want a hotel there. Now this could be the same developer that is scouting land for a 13-story condo hotel, spa and restaurant or maybe its another one which could mean the possbility of three new downtown hotels. But Justin said with confidence there will be a new boutique hotel downtown within two years.