Reasons why some will not go DOWNTOWN

[Okstate]

I hope this has not been brought up recently (I looked briefly)

Basic background of this question:
I live in a small town (Stillwater, Oklahoma) & will be moving to a big city shortly for my MURP degree. I always hear negative feedback about how dangerous and yucky big cities are from people when i tell them my plans. Just out of curiosity, what have some of you heard from your peers/family as to reasons they do not like downtowns???

[miketoronto]

Not really downtown related. But my sister just had a huge debate with my cousin over living in the city/downtown or the suburbs. He said there is no way he would raise a kid in the city, because the lawns are not big enough, and that is why he is getting a nice new home on the urban fringe.

My sister countered back with she sees more kids playing out on the lawns in the city, then out in the suburbs :)

Anyway most of my relatives would not live in the city due to small lot sizes, and diversity. My extended family only likes living among white people. So that basically has made them flee even inner suburban areas that are too "diverse".

But that is mostly the reason here. There is really not anything to be scared of crime rise. It more has to do with space and being among ones own kind that more drives the anti-city view here among certain people I know.

[Okstate]

Yes, this is exactly what i'm looking for. Actually, i myself am married with a young child Mike. I am more than likely moving to Portland where i already have an apartment on the waiting list. It just so happens this apartment is in the downtown pearl district with a park directly across the street. From the pictures i've seen and stories i've heard... the kids in this neighborhood, while still small in number, have a great time congregating at this park and playing. So i guess i can agree agree with your sister saying that suburban kids do not have the upper hand on city kids.

[volguus zildrohar]

If city living is something one is unaccustomed to than they're going to be apprehensive of the notion. People in small towns hear of big city crime and think any trip to a big city is akin to a night in Fallujah. Nothing you can do about that. Typically it's bullets, baggies or 'those people' folks are trying to avoid encountering. Two of the three are easily avoided in every big city I've ever lived in and been to.

I've heard some dumb stuff from people about Philadelphia. I counter that I've lived here the whole of my 24 years and have been shot once...and that was the last time I played laser tag. Which occurred in the suburbs, oddly enough.

[roadwarrior]

My fiancee and I live in a high rise apartment in downtown San Francisco. We happen to love it, but have friends that live in other parts of the city and would not live downtown. They say that they prefer the more neighborhoodly feel or "town within a city" feel of their areas on the outer parts of the city, vs. the Manhattanish feel that my neighborhood has. They say that there isn't enough grassy areas for their dog and that its too busy here. We happen to disagree and have a dog ourselves, but those are the basic reasons.

[TheMeltyMan]

I think its healthy to have an even dose of both city and country life. I feel its best to raise a kid who has got the balls to handle himself in both urban and rural situations.

[miketoronto]

Not wanting to live right downtown I don't think is hatred though.

My sisters for example love downtown and partake in many activities downtown. But they would never live in it. They live 5min away in an inner city negihbourhood, and allows them some peace and quiet at night and stuff.

So just because you would not live right in it, does not mean you don't like it or enjoy it so to speak.

[Okstate]

I can understand not wanting to live in a downtown by all means. The apt. i'm going to be renting is probably a ten minute walk into the CBD & that is about as close as i'd get. However, many seemingly will not even venture into a downtown based on stereotypes. I simply wonder what negative perceptions you all have heard, true or not.

For example: I was in Dallas just last weekend and overheard a friends girlfriend complaining how she missed a ride & had to take the light rail to her destination. Everything about her experience was "yucky" to sum it up. Later that night, my buddies & I were going out on the town and someone mentioned Deep Ellum (near downtown) & the majority immediately responded, "no that's downtown Dallas, it's kinda strange at night". Just anything associated with urbanity seemingly gets the shaft by ALOT of people.

[pdxstreetcar]

A recent letter to the editor from Portland:

Turning back on downtown
The Sunday Oregonian article regarding downtown Portland and Lake Oswego's Kruse Way (Business, June 17) focused my attention on why I no longer do business downtown and why I frequently visit Kruse Way.

What are the downtown turnoffs? Traffic congestion, street people, homeless people, panhandlers, jaywalkers, no parking, metered parking and expensive parking, light rail on the surface, bus traffic and pollution, construction, bicycle riders, bicycle lanes, detours, potholes, trolleys, and I'm sure I've missed some things.

What does Kruse Way have? Good access, no traffic congestion, lots of free parking, open spaces with trees, shrubs and lawns, attractive buildings, well-run restaurants with good food and good shopping there and close by.

DON ROBISON
Southwest Portland
June 26, 2007


Several recent responses to the letter:
Downtown delights: livability, character (http://www.oregonlive.com/oregonian/stories/index.ssf?/base/editorial/1183164923109540.xml&coll=7)

[miketoronto]

I really don't hear much hatred for visiting downtown except from my brother who thinks anything in the city including suburbs are crime ridden hellish places(he lives in the country just outside of suburbia) :)

Other then that I just find alot of people out of touch with downtown and the city, because they have been conditioned to just live life in the suburbs. Many of my cousins I don't think have stepped foot in downtown Toronto in years. Not because they have a hatred. But they are just use to their power centres, chain restaurants, etc. That and they have choosen to move to the farthest out suburbs you can think of :)

The only other complain I get about downtown is parking. And that is from my dad :) He bases everything on parking, and can't understand how people in my sisters neighbourhood pay $600,000 for a house with no parking :)

Now my friend who comes from Hamilton( a city an hour from Toronto) was telling me about how all his parents neighbours in Hamilton always tell him how they hope he can find a job in Hamilton soon and get out of big bad Toronto. And then they are shocked when he tells them he wants to stay in Toronto, and they can't understand why.

The only other negative stuff I have gotten is at work, from customers that call us up from Northern Ontario. They somehow have heard that Toronto is a gang infested city where you can't walk the streets at night :) I actually had one lady ask me if she would be able to walk from the bus terminal to the train station at 7PM at night, or if the gangs overtake the streets at that time. I was just in shock they even thought of that up North :)

Sadly though I don't really think there is a hatred of downtown or being scared of it. It is just more that people do not feel in touch with downtown or the city anymore. Many just don't partake in city things anymore, be it shopping, theatre, etc. They just stay at home in the burbs. So I think the bigger issue is people just not getting out anymore and being seperated from city life so to speak.

[Front_Range_Guy]

The biggest complaint I hear is that the homeless make people uncomfortable. Not a good reason as far as I'm concerned, but it seems to be an issue with a lot of people.

Then there are classic moments like this. I'm having dinner with my friends family Saturday night. We live in the same suburban neighborhood. They were talking shit about Denver and how they like the suburbs because they are so nice and quiet.

My friend: "Chris (front_range_guy) is going to move to Denver someday. He wants to live in Commerce City"

Me: "No I don't! I want to live downtown. I want to be able to walk and take mass transit as much as possible."

Friends Parents (Dissaprovingly): "Downtown? Isn't that where all the gay people live?"

[bobdreamz]

^ Friends Parents (Dissaprovingly): "Downtown? Isn't that where all the gay people live?"

:jester: there are no gay people in the suburbs?

[Chicago103]

These people to me are so different from myself its almost like they are from a foreign country if only for the fact that just about all of us have family or friends that are like this to some degree. It is odd to live in a world where so many people look upon urban things that I consider to make life worth living, my passion in life with apathy or even fear. Their heaven is my hell.

It would be one thing if these people just lived their lives and I lived mine but they dont, they spread ignorance and fear to people who might be open minded about living in urban lifestyles and even a number of people who do move downtown are stuck in a suburban mentality and want the city to mold to fit their incompatable lifestyles. The unassimilated masses in our large cities are not immigrants legal or illegal as many in the general public proclaim but rather the unassimilated to urban life suburban masses living in our cities. They complain about non-whites, non-native english speakers, welfare recipients and gay people wheras I complain about people who want to drive and park everywhere taking my tax dollars, polluting my air and endangering my life on a daily basis with their wreckless, wastefull, ignorant and lazy lifestyles. I am probably ten times more likely to die getting run over by their SUV when they are not looking where the hell they are going than being murdered in the city they are so scared shitless of.

May the wrath of God come in the form of $10 a gallon gas, gridlock everywhere and expensive and scarce parking upon these selfish hedonists.

(disclaimer: The preceeding sentance is meant as a joke immitating Alan Keyes who used the term "selfish hedonists" to describe those that partake in homosexual activity, it is not meant to be taken as a literal plea to the almighty to punish anyone.)

[roadwarrior]

I truly believe that most people who are afraid of living in the downtown areas of cities have never done so before and are consumed by the fear of the unknown.

I'll use myself as an example. Prior to living in downtown SF, I lived in Phoenix, which really has no liveable downtown and has one of the largest areas of sprawl of any city. I was very accustomed to driving everywhere, having lots of open space and commuting long distances to work. I decided to try the city experience for once in my life, to see how I liked it (and also because it was convenient for my work). It greatly exceeded my expectations. I got rid of my car upon moving here (although my fiancee still has a car for commuting to work and for our weekly grocery shopping). I really don't miss having a car. I am much more fit, as I walk everywhere and occasionally take public transportation or a cab for longer distances. I love being able to walk to great restaurants of all persuasions, to the movies, to great shops and other entertainment venues. Its nice being able to walk or take a cab back from the bars, rather than drive, like I did in Phoenix. Its a lot safer as well. When we have kids, I may end up leaving the city, not because I don't think it would be a good place to raise kids, but because it is just incredibly expensive to raise them, at least in this city.

[KillerIman]

downtown is where its at. cultural meccas. i'm more frightened of rural areas.

[miketoronto]

I just don't get these people with the hatred for the city. I know it is not everyones cup of tea. But to never partake in a museum, or theatre show, or festival downtown, seems like a waste to me :)
I have a cousin who basically never takes their kids anywhere in the city for the most part, except for I think a park once. Anyway my sister basically made them come visit her in the city and she took them to the museum downtown. The kids had a blast and where enjoying it. But you think my cousin has taken her kids anywhere else in the city since then. Nope. All the kids get to see is a different shopping mall each weekend, in the suburbs. I just don't get it.

I agree with you Chicago103. I just can't relate to many people in my family with the suburban mentality. You have all these offerings 30min away in the city, and they never use any of it. Waste if you ask me.

But their loss in the long run.

My sister got my cousin good though. He told her if she ever falls in love with a guy from the suburbs, she will be living out in the burbs faster then she can blink. And she basically said "I will never fall in love with someone from the suburbs, because I don't hang out with those kinds". And he just did not know what to say. Its great bugging the family :)

[Okstate]

Chicago103 "they spread ignorance and fear to people who might be open minded about living in urban lifestyles"

You nailed it with that statement i think. I have read on here MANY times about... "lets just let suburban people live their pathetic lives while we live our own" It is so difficult to live in a small town around those influences & STILL manage to crave an urban lifestyle like myself. People around me always say, "just wait until you get there, you'll be running back so fast your own shadow will lose track of you." We city lifestyle lovers need to be aware that not all of suburbia initially endorses suburban lifestyle... it takes years & years of people bashing it around you... and some get their hopes defeated.

[Frisco_Zig]

My extended family lives in the residential areas of San Francisco and the suburbs near by

Some of my relatives even would like to move back to SF downtown to downsize into condos (though this is difficult because of property tax laws)

When I was younger "downtown" was not as attractive as it is now nor was it as residential.

[Chicago103]

Chicago103 "they spread ignorance and fear to people who might be open minded about living in urban lifestyles"

You nailed it with that statement i think. I have read on here MANY times about... "lets just let suburban people live their pathetic lives while we live our own" It is so difficult to live in a small town around those influences & STILL manage to crave an urban lifestyle like myself. People around me always say, "just wait until you get there, you'll be running back so fast your own shadow will lose track of you." We city lifestyle lovers need to be aware that not all of suburbia initially endorses suburban lifestyle... it takes years & years of people bashing it around you... and some get their hopes defeated.

Your right and the thing is though that rural america doesnt offer what it used to anymore either. Most small towns of today are suburbanized beyond recognition anyways. If small towns actually still had human scaled environments with an active main street downtown and a cohesive walkable community then maybe there would be a reason for people like you to stay. Fifty years ago arguments that those people make to you might have had some merit, cities are not for everyone but the difference is that in the past there were real alternatives, today everything is fake and suburban except for big cities with few exceptions and even big cities are becoming fake and suburban its just that the sheer critical mass in the cities ensures that the real vibe of the place wont completly go away. Small town america is no longer Norman Rockwell or the Andy Griffith show, today it is Wal-Mart, McMansions and super sized pick up trucks and SUV's and the kids are just as stoned and oversexed or if your lucky hooked on X-box and a lazy spoiled couch potato just as much as kids anywhere else in anywhere USA and not fishing at the fishing hole or any other dead cliche associated with the near extinct rural lifestyle.

[Owlhorn]

I can understand not wanting to live in a downtown by all means. The apt. i'm going to be renting is probably a ten minute walk into the CBD & that is about as close as i'd get. However, many seemingly will not even venture into a downtown based on stereotypes. I simply wonder what negative perceptions you all have heard, true or not.

For example: I was in Dallas just last weekend and overheard a friends girlfriend complaining how she missed a ride & had to take the light rail to her destination. Everything about her experience was "yucky" to sum it up. Later that night, my buddies & I were going out on the town and someone mentioned Deep Ellum (near downtown) & the majority immediately responded, "no that's downtown Dallas, it's kinda strange at night". Just anything associated with urbanity seemingly gets the shaft by ALOT of people.

I usually refer people to look into renting or buying a place in these spots they're afraid of. Once the high prices and options are seen, it quickly becomes apparent that real danger can't afford to live in these places. Deep Ellum though, has had some problems as it has started bringing in younger crowds. There are simply other areas that have taken on their crowds.

As for DART, its one of the cleanest systems in the country. I think many people's problem with riding public transit is that you see people from all walks of life.

[flar]

Smalltown and country people are overwhelmed by cities. My mother in law came up for a visit to Hamilton, and said she needed some material for sewing. I took her to the textile district on Ottawa St. where there are several blocks of sewing stores. She looked around for a bit but didn't buy anything. On the way home, she stopped at a big box Fabricland in the suburbs and got what she needed. Incidentally, she was in a Fabricland in the textile district.

[Cambridgite]

Not really downtown related. But my sister just had a huge debate with my cousin over living in the city/downtown or the suburbs. He said there is no way he would raise a kid in the city, because the lawns are not big enough, and that is why he is getting a nice new home on the urban fringe.

Because the most important factor in having your child grow up well adjusted is the size of your lawn and the newness of your house. :rolleyes: Strange, but I never thought a patch of grass could replace parenting. Maybe I'm wrong though. :haha:

I had a debate with a girl at my university about this a couple months ago. She grew up in Mississauga, a suburb of Toronto. She was telling me how she'd never live in an inner city because she just loves the grass too much. She said that, with kids, having grass to play with them in is an absolute necessity, even if it means commuting long distances to find it. This blew my mind. If I were to have kids, I'd much rather have the extra 2 hours to spend with them, rather than giving it up just so we could have lots of grass that we don't even use. To me, that's setting your priorities straight and thinking about what really affects the well-being of your child. Sometimes I just wonder if people are zombies.

Anyway most of my relatives would not live in the city due to small lot sizes, and diversity. My extended family only likes living among white people. So that basically has made them flee even inner suburban areas that are too "diverse".

So what non-diverse outer suburbs are you talking about in the GTA? Last time I checked, most outer suburbs of Toronto weren't exactly white places. Brampton, Mississauga, Markham, Richmond Hill, are pretty diverse, just to name a few. Are you referring to the exurbs (Uxbridge, Stouffville, Bradford, Georgetown, etc.)? I know even in my neighborhood in suburban Cambridge, whites aren't an overwhelming majority and it is 5 years old. In the new subdivision just up the road, it's hard to spot anyone who's white. The "downtowns" on the other hand, are full of mostly white people who have lived in Cambridge for generations.

This is a scary attitude when people think there are going to be shootings all the time as soon as some non-whites move in. I've seen this time and time again and I think the media may have something to do with it. But honestly, any intelligent person can think outside the box and realize that just because someone is black and lives at Jane & Finch, doesn't mean he's a bad guy or even a delinquent of any sort. But people react to what they see in the news and they carry those stereotypes with them in every situation. It's very sad.

[Cambridgite]

My experience with most downtown-haters is that they fear bums and a lack of parking, right in front of their destination. I once mentioned my friend that I thought downtown Kitchener had potential. He responded with "No Mike. It has NO potential whatsoever! The place is ugly, abandoned, crime-ridden, and ohhh the bums!" I decided to check the area out myself numerous times. It's a good place to walk and sometimes a nice stopover to get a bite to eat when I'm coming home from campus. I've only been panhandled a couple of times. I'm not bothered by them. I actually find the Jehovah's Witnesses much more annoying. The streets get pretty busy around lunch time. Some of the pawn shops and other low end stores have been converted into spas, bakeries, and sushi restaurants. The area has a nice vibe to it, nothing like Toronto or Montreal, but much better than anywhere in the suburbs. Funny how most of the crime I've heard about going on in the Region has been happening in the (inner) suburbs lately, including a machete attack, some shootings, and most recently (about a month ago), a drive-by shooting in a quiet residential neighborhood, FAR from downtown. Residents were shocked, saying that things like this could happen downtown, but not here, lol.

Here are some pics of King Street in the middle of the day:

http://s206.photobucket.com/albums/bb210/Cambridgite/?action=view&current=Picture222.jpg
http://s206.photobucket.com/albums/bb210/Cambridgite/?action=view&current=Picture223.jpg
http://s206.photobucket.com/albums/bb210/Cambridgite/?action=view&current=Picture225.jpg

I apologize for the lighting. It was a very sunny day.

It may not be Yonge Street, but it's hardly "abandoned".

[holladay]

My parents generally like to go downtown, for the theatre, museums, restaurants, etc. But one reason they tend not to is that they live in an exurb 45 minutes away. They chose to buy a suburban house because they are like many people in that they want a big yard, a 2-car garage, and 'new construction.' I think that all of the reasons people posted for why people don't go downtown are valid. But I'm including this anecdote about my parents because I think it is indicative of another set of circumstances, that of people who wouldn't mind going into the city for cultural reasons but would otherwise prefer to reside in a less urban environment. Granted, more people could choose intown pre-war neighborhoods as a compromise between high-density living and standard sprawl, but realistically housing stock is limited, prices are generally high in most affluent cities, and many people do still believe that newer houses are better.

[Xelebes]

When I was younger, there was nothing to do there. The only time I went to downtown before the age of 16 was to go watch a movie there because the theatres were cheaper than the ones at the malls further out. When I was 16, I realised there was a real good music store that had the best selection in synthesisers so I frequented that one a lot.

[pwright1]

I live right outside of downtown Seattle. I love our downtown. By far the best, culture, nightlife, shopping, restaurants, and entertainment in the region. That is what I love to be surrounded by. Dangerous? Please.

[miketoronto]

My parents generally like to go downtown, for the theatre, museums, restaurants, etc. But one reason they tend not to is that they live in an exurb 45 minutes away.

Another thing is people not knowing what the city offers. Even with shopping, its not like you shop everyday for clothing, gifts, and stuff. But many people don't know the offerings in downtown, so they don't go. Same goes with culture. People don't know the offerings, and never go.

My mom was like that for a while. She lived in NYC and always went into Manhattan. But when she moved to Toronto with my dad, she hardly went downtown, because she really did not know what downtown had to offer, and was sort of conditioned into the suburban lifestyle.

Now she has actually seen what is going on downtown more, and she is always bugging me to take her now. But there is a time where she did not know all the stuff going on, and most people do not go seeking out to find out what is going on so to speak.

But it is not a hatred or fear of downtown. Many people just are conditioned not to go there now, because of malls, move theatres in the burbs, etc.

I have friends from the suburbs who never went downtown, because they did not know anything about it. Now they are always down there, because they have gone and explored and seen things.

So you gotta get people to explore.

[pdxtex]

drugs, bums, drag queens, hustlers, loose women, gangsters....don't go downtown, you'll get rolled in an alley!!!! kidding aside, not sure what city you are moving too but i think major cities across the country are actually the safest they have been in decades....just keep your wits about you and all should be well.

[Exodus]

The one I hear most often from people on why they don't like downtown is lack of things to do, and nowhere to shop. They say they are just too boring and dirty.

[Aleks]

I live right outside of downtown Seattle. I love our downtown. By far the best, culture, nightlife, shopping, restaurants, and entertainment in the region. That is what I love to be surrounded by. Dangerous? Please.

i live close to downtown Seattle too but i dont think it has the best culture, entertainment, and shoppin in the Seattle area...
its just that downtowns are kind of hmm... boring in some cases... like Seattle
there are a lot of bums in downtown and crime but only around the shoping district and Pioneer square ... i guess junkees and bums like to shop and hang around the old best looking part of the city
i was downtown today actually but i was in the Columbia tower/ Seattle Public Library vicinity and it there were no shops in sight.... there were almost no bums or junkees in sight either...
maybe they get scared by all the business men and their brief cases
i guess it all depends where downtown u are!!

[pdxtex]

not to bag on seattle, but yeah, downtown seattle is pretty seedy.....

[Joey D]

Because it's Wilmington

haha I really don't know.

[Chicago3rd]

I really don't want them in our city or downtown. Let them stay out in the burbs. These are the people who stop at the bottom of the escalators at Union Station to wait for the straggling part of their party even if thousands of people are coming down those escalators at rush hour........

[miketoronto]

I really don't want them in our city or downtown. Let them stay out in the burbs. These are the people who stop at the bottom of the escalators at Union Station to wait for the straggling part of their party even if thousands of people are coming down those escalators at rush hour........


Suburbanites play just as an important role in keeping downtown and the city healthy, as city residents do. A downtown must cater to everyone. Not just downtown residents.
That is why you have to look at the reasons why people don't come on down to the city.

[Chicago3rd]

Suburbanites play just as an important role in keeping downtown and the city healthy, as city residents do. A downtown must cater to everyone. Not just downtown residents.
That is why you have to look at the reasons why people don't come on down to the city.

Mike...the topic is about suburbanites who "WILL NOT GO DOWNTOWN". Has nothing to do with the suburbanites who DO COME DOWNTOWN. Fricken read the damn topics. I don't want any ignorant people who already are afraid of the city to come downtown...we don't need stupid people.

And what the hell would they be able to do? They sure as hell wouldn't be visiting our many theater companies, dance companies, museums and art institutes fine parks and restaruants. Not the stupid people who "WILL NOT GO DOWNTOWN". So they need to stay the hell away.

Lots of suburbanites love working and playing downtown in Chicago. They just prefer living out in the burbs. I would never date one of course..but they can be great friends at work.

[James Bond Agent 007]

I have an aunt in Raleigh who once said she avoided driving to downtown Raleigh because of the one-way streets.

Some people just get bothered by the dumbest things. :shrug:

[holladay]

Lots of suburbanites love working and playing downtown in Chicago. I would never date one of course..but they can be great friends at work.


Too good to date a suburbanite... that's rich. Where will the elitism go next?

[JManc]

i rarely venture downtown becuase there is no place to park (except for weeknights) and i can pretty much do anything i could in downtown right here in the galleria area.

[b-s]

i rarely venture downtown becuase there is no place to park (except for weeknights) and i can pretty much do anything i could in downtown right here in the galleria area.

Emphasis mine. LOL, I'm holding my tounge. Houston. LOL. :)

Too good to date a suburbanite... that's rich. Where will the elitism go next?

Why is that elitism? Some people won't date people that aren't in their preferred choice of sports interests, certain monetary careers, certain races, hair colors, eye colors, teeth colors. Music is a big interest that people like to have in common.

There's no elitism when someone prefers to date someone that share their own interests, background, and culture.
Perhaps in your metro area (an example of most of America which isn't urban) the difference between areas doesn't exist but there's a significant difference in a born and bred Chicago city guy/girl and some other guy/girl from the opposite end of the spectrum.

Zzzzz.

[sprtsluvr8]

Why is that elitism? Some people won't date people that aren't in their preferred choice of sports interests, certain monetary careers, certain races, hair colors, eye colors, teeth colors. Music is a big interest that people like to have in common.

There's no elitism when someone prefers to date someone that share their own interests, background, and culture.
Perhaps in your metro area (an example of most of America which isn't urban) the difference between areas doesn't exist but there's a significant difference in a born and bred Chicago city guy/girl and some other guy/girl from the opposite end of the spectrum.

It's not nice to judge people based on where they live...as everyone knows, there is diversity in every district of every city, town, suburb, borough, etc. It's unusual to hear this narrow-minded view from someone claiming to be an urban resident...I usually expect an overall tolerant and open mind from those who are exposed to the lifestyle and culture of a city.

It is shame that you believe the interests, background and culture of Chicago exist in a vacuum. You can't assume that someone from Elgin isn't able to share common interests with you...it's not like Elgin is on a different continent. It may be beyond your comprehension, but many suburban residents make it a point to take advantage of their nearby city and expose themselves and their children to it. The fact that they have chosen to live outside of the city doesn't make them inherently different from you; additionally, the fact that someone has chosen to live in the same or similar neighborhood as you doesn't make them similar to you. Maybe this kind of realization is something that comes with maturity...and eventually you'll understand how short-sighted it is to judge a person based on arbitrary and unrelated details.

In reading your post I assumed you would come around to saying that the distance was your reason for limiting your dating options. I don't like to get involved with someone who lives in the burbs just because of the driving back and forth...I've done that, and it is a definite drawback.

[b-s]

It's not nice to judge people based on where they live...

Snipped because the first phrase was young, idealistic, cute, and immature.

Thanks, but in the real world people get judged in the first 7 seconds of meeting someone, people get judged for having a mole on their nose, and people get judged for all sorts of reasons that you may feel don't interact perfectly in your non-judgmental utopia. Real people with real lives don't have time to know eachother's souls -- they make judgements and they move on. Once you enter the real world, you'll see. And just because Atlanta is no different than everything else in northern Georgia doesn't mean that applies to every other place in America. Spare me.

Thanks for your post, it was the perfect thing to put me to sleep..... zzzzzzz. Ignored.

[Rufus]

Thanks for your post, it was the perfect thing to put me to sleep..... zzzzzzz. Ignored.

But... you didn't ignore his post. In fact you responded to it with an unnecessarily harsh comment.:frog:

[Chicago3rd]

Too good to date a suburbanite... that's rich. Where will the elitism go next?

Lol....elitism. That is called name calling. Your comment has nothing to do with the topic nor does it relate to very much that I said. Knowing something that would not work (living in the suburbs for me or his living in the city) just seems pretty much like I know what I like. And I cannot compromise my urban lifestyle.

Boy friends may come and go but my lover the city will always be here. Always feeding me.

[mcfinley]

I'd hate to say that urbanites are better than their suburban neighbors. I may think it ;) , but I'd hate to say that. To each their own.

When I was a kid growing up in the outer suburbs of Chicago, I always loved going into the city. When we'd do field trips to the museums, though, my friends couldn't wait to return to their home town. They saw nothing there for them. Everything was too overdeveloped, too busy. Mostly, I think they felt they couldn't do whatever they wanted in the city, since you really don't own land in the city and you're regimented to what's offered by others. My friends would much rather drive an hour to a relatives farm in Wisconsin where they could wander in the woods (always the same damn forest), build things, make a mess, shoot guns, and tinker with mechanics. Personally, I was usually bored out of my mind, but they enjoyed the leisurely freedom.

Additionally, most of their parents hated driving into the city. Hated the traffic, hated the fast pace, and hated parking once they figured out where they were going. I think the ordered chaos of traveling between destinations is something a lot of city dwellers take for granted. Few things peeve me more than suburbanites ambling in the middle of a walkway, halting mindlessly for a walk light to change, or stopping their car in the street because they would have to drive out of their lane to get around somebody. There are so many norms in the city that go against "the rules", I think outsiders become overwhelmed/intimidated so they associate the city with stress and the angry glares of commuters pushing them to get out of the way.

[miketoronto]

I often have no tolerance for people who go on about the city being to busy. Iunderstand certain areas can be very busy, or super busy like NYC.

But overall most city streets are no more busy then a suburban mall. Believe me suburban malls can be just as packed and fast paced as a city street. And parking can be harder to find at a mall.

Anyway back to the suburbanites. They have to be educated on what the city has to offer. Alot are just really out of touch and don't know the offerings in the city. So they never go.

There are city residents who never even know what is going on and don't go downtown either.

You gotta market the stuff going on so people know what is going on.

[roadwarrior]

When I lived in suburbia, I just took open space for granted and drove everywhere. Little did I know how much better off I would be when I moved to the city. Here are a few highlights:

1 - Excercise - Being able to walk everywhere rather than drive does wonders for your health. Even on days that I don't go to the gym, I'm exercising and it really has gotten me in much better shape.
2 - Eating - Living in the downtown area provides you with access to quality restaurants and gourmet supermarkets. Before I lived downtown, I used to eat a lot of fast foods. Now, there aren't that many for me to even choose from, so I'm not as tempted. I definitely think that my health has improved.
3 - Environment - I sold my car when I moved to the city. No longer do I drive 30 miles each way per day to work. I walk to work or take public transportation. That really causes a much lower carbon footprint than when I lived in the suburbs.

[sprtsluvr8]

I often have no tolerance for people who go on about the city being to busy. Iunderstand certain areas can be very busy, or super busy like NYC.

But overall most city streets are no more busy then a suburban mall. Believe me suburban malls can be just as packed and fast paced as a city street. And parking can be harder to find at a mall.

Anyway back to the suburbanites. They have to be educated on what the city has to offer. Alot are just really out of touch and don't know the offerings in the city. So they never go.

There are city residents who never even know what is going on and don't go downtown either.

You gotta market the stuff going on so people know what is going on.

But you don't think that you're better than suburbanites like the Mr. Chicago do you? I can't believe anyone would have the audacity to make such ignorant statements. It only reveals his lack of intelligence....

*This is how you ignore someone's juvenile statements and personal attacks...<silence>

[holladay]

Anyway back to the suburbanites. They have to be educated on what the city has to offer. Alot are just really out of touch and don't know the offerings in the city. So they never go.




I'm not quoting you because I disagree with you, Mike. But I do find your statement curious because I think that on this forum gradually the urban enthusiasts may have lost touch with the suburbs as well.

I say this because I used to agree with a lot of the pro-urbanites on here when I lived in central Paris and Midtown Atlanta. Last year I moved to Memphis, a city where I have started spending a lot more time in suburban areas. And I have been really impressed by the sense of community I have witnessed in many suburban areas. And the people who live there are really great and in way no the clones and drones they are often made out to be on SSP. So surprisingly, I have really come to have a new respect for suburban environments after being more or less anti-suburb for about 10 years. And people can read my comments and say I've lost my edge or whatever and that's fine, but personally I think tolerance and understanding on both sides are absolutely critical when discussing issues of urbanism.

[Chicago3rd]

But you don't think that you're better than suburbanites like the Mr. Chicago do you? I can't believe anyone would have the audacity to make such ignorant statements. It only reveals his lack of intelligence....

*This is how you ignore someone's juvenile statements and personal attacks...<silence>

1st I my initial contribution was focused on the actual topic "some will not go Downtown" which is the actual topic at hand...lol. Those are the people that don't need to be found downtown...was NOT commenting about suburanites in general.

My dating thing it is personal preference and I didn't say it was because suburbanites are less than me I stated different lifestyles. Like I wouldn't date a smoker. I wouldn't date a fat guy. I wouldn't date a woman. I wouldn't date a guy who goes to NASCAR. That is just me. Add to that there are lots of things I do in the city that are mundane and boring to most in America...but I can only have those experiences in an Urban environment and they are a huge part of me.

Must have hit a sore spot in you...but you could never have me because I have an "urban" partner of 5 years.

[holladay]

1st I my initial contribution was focused on the actual topic "some will not go Downtown" which is the actual topic at hand...lol. Those are the people that don't need to be found downtown...was NOT commenting about suburanites in general.

My dating thing it is personal preference and I didn't say it was because suburbanites are less than me I stated different lifestyles. Like I wouldn't date a smoker. I wouldn't date a fat guy. I wouldn't date a woman. I wouldn't date a guy who goes to NASCAR. That is just me. Add to that there are lots of things I do in the city that are mundane and boring to most in America...but I can only have those experiences in an Urban environment and they are a huge part of me.

Must have hit a sore spot in you...but you could never have me because I have an "urban" partner of 5 years.


OK, I understand your comments but your attitude comes across as quite smug. Maybe it's just the way you word things.

[mcfinley]

For argument's sake, I think we could flip the question around--reasons why urbanites will not go to the country. It may sound funny to those that have done any traveling, but there are a lot of people born and raised in the city that have never been beyond the suburbs and are intimidated by wild nature. Also the same argument can be said that city dwellers need to be educated by what the world has to offer outside the confines of a grid.

When I was a kid, I hated farm country, but I loved and still love nature by itself. After I moved to Manhattan, I found very quickly that I had to just leave the Island at least every few months, whether it was by car rental, train, anything. The city changes you, it can be indurating. The calm that a lot of people love outside the city is something I found, personally, was something I needed for balance. To me, it makes no sense why ANYONE would want to stay in their environment, but people are creatures of habit. Some people are uncomfortable with anything outside their known world, and they're content that way.

[glowrock]

i rarely venture downtown becuase there is no place to park (except for weeknights) and i can pretty much do anything i could in downtown right here in the galleria area.

Except hit up a cool Irish pub! :)

Aaron (Glowrock)

[holladay]

^ Precisely some good points, mcfinley. Perhaps, in fact, the reason so many Americans prefer the suburbs is that they want a little of both civic life and countryside. Certainly it's not a perfect compromise, but it's an understandably comfortable environment. Add to that the early foundations of America as a highly agrarian/market town society and it becomes even clearer why Americans still have a need for grass under their feet. Unlike in Europe where walled towns were normal for defensive purposes, America's earliest settlements were most often partly agricultural. For example, Boston Common was a place for herding sheep and Williamsburg was composed of houses on long, deep lots for individual gardens and raising chickens, etc. Ironically, in some ways suburbs are an extension of this tradition, although in their dispersion and relative inwardness they reflect a societal shift towards greater privatization and less emphasis on communal life.

[Jeff_in_Dayton]

For Dayton, there is no reason to go downtown for the average suburbanite.

There are certain niche markets for downtown stuff, like nightclubs that cater to homosexuals, the peforming arts venues, and some places that have developed certain niche markets (italian "old spaghetti warehouse", "Price Brothers" for tuxedos and wedding attire, "General Suprlus" for outdoors stuff), and if your involved in the legal system (court cases, jury duty, etc) but that is about it.

downtown died years ago as a retail destination due to lack of parking and the ongoing ghettoization of Dayton making the place uncomfortable for white middle class suburbanites.

Thus the average suburbanite sees no reason to go downtown, and thinks of the place as crime-ridden (which would have bee the case 35 years ago, but isnt today) and a place for the poor and icky, which, truth be told, it is to some extent.

Downtown isnt too attractive, anyway, as tehre are a lot of big parking lots and monolithic buildings without much storefront that makes walking around somewhat dreary and unpleasant (unlike the urban canyond/density vibe one gets in densely built up donwtowns such as Cincinnati and Chicago and Pittsburgh).

[JManc]

@ aaron: this is true.

Emphasis mine. LOL, I'm holding my tounge. Houston. LOL. :)

spit it out. you obviously have something to say.

Snipped because the first phrase was young, idealistic, cute, and immature.

Thanks, but in the real world people get judged in the first 7 seconds of meeting someone, people get judged for having a mole on their nose, and people get judged for all sorts of reasons that you may feel don't interact perfectly in your non-judgmental utopia. Real people with real lives don't have time to know eachother's souls -- they make judgements and they move on. Once you enter the real world, you'll see. And just because Atlanta is no different than everything else in northern Georgia doesn't mean that applies to every other place in America. Spare me.

Thanks for your post, it was the perfect thing to put me to sleep..... zzzzzzz. Ignored.

you're cute, witty, intelligent and we have a lot in common but...sigh...you live on a cul-de-sac in the 'canyons of woodlake' subdivision. i'm sorry, you're just not my type. oh, and you drive an SUV...ewww.

[Cambridgite]

you're cute, witty, intelligent and we have a lot in common but...sigh...you live on a cul-de-sac in the 'canyons of woodlake' subdivision. i'm sorry, you're just not my type. oh, and you drive an SUV...ewww.

:haha: :haha:

[LosAngelesBeauty]

For Los Angeles, we've had a dead downtown for almost 50 years!

It was a quinessential "9-to-5" downtown. You pretty much just drove into work, and drove out after. The reason was because Downtown LA had absolutely nothing to do. Why WOULD YOU stick around for?

Also, the largest homeless concentration in the nation, drug addicts, and drug dealers, prostitutes, and cardboard/tent cities were here in Downtown LA. It seemed hopeless! And scary!

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/oct2005/home-o17.jpg


http://www.aclu-sc.org/attach/h/homeless_tents_&_she_900078.jpg


http://www.roamingphotos.com/us/ca/losangeles/downtown/best_1610.jpg


http://www.dennishollingsworth.us/archives/images/homelessshelter2.jpg


http://www-scf.usc.edu/~desola/pilotimages/homeless_streets.jpg


http://www.christianpost.com/upload_static/society/society_2405_1.jpg
LA Mayor Villaraigosa washing feet during Easter


http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2002/Mar-19-Tue-2002/photos/news.jpg


That's why people didn't come to Downtown LA! lol

[sprtsluvr8]

1st I my initial contribution was focused on the actual topic "some will not go Downtown" which is the actual topic at hand...lol. Those are the people that don't need to be found downtown...was NOT commenting about suburanites in general.

My dating thing it is personal preference and I didn't say it was because suburbanites are less than me I stated different lifestyles. Like I wouldn't date a smoker. I wouldn't date a fat guy. I wouldn't date a woman. I wouldn't date a guy who goes to NASCAR. That is just me. Add to that there are lots of things I do in the city that are mundane and boring to most in America...but I can only have those experiences in an Urban environment and they are a huge part of me.

Must have hit a sore spot in you...but you could never have me because I have an "urban" partner of 5 years.

I'm crushed. I had my heart set on having you. How will I go on?

[Master Shake]

For Los Angeles, we've had a dead downtown for almost 50 years!

It was a quinessential "9-to-5" downtown. You pretty much just drove into work, and drove out after. The reason was because Downtown LA had absolutely nothing to do. Why WOULD YOU stick around for?

Also, the largest homeless concentration in the nation, drug addicts, and drug dealers, prostitutes, and cardboard/tent cities were here in Downtown LA. It seemed hopeless! And scary!

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/oct2005/home-o17.jpg


http://www.aclu-sc.org/attach/h/homeless_tents_&_she_900078.jpg


http://www.roamingphotos.com/us/ca/losangeles/downtown/best_1610.jpg


http://www.dennishollingsworth.us/archives/images/homelessshelter2.jpg


http://www-scf.usc.edu/~desola/pilotimages/homeless_streets.jpg


http://www.christianpost.com/upload_static/society/society_2405_1.jpg
LA Mayor Villaraigosa washing feet during Easter


http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2002/Mar-19-Tue-2002/photos/news.jpg


That's why people didn't come to Downtown LA! lol

The homeless madness of downtown LA is in part intentional public policy to literally dump people on the streets there as show in Michael Moore's SICKO.

[PhillyRising]

If more people just listened to Petula Clark...everyone would go Downtown!!!

lViqDIuS4fM

[shovel_ready]

Perhaps, in fact, the reason so many Americans prefer the suburbs is that they want a little of both civic life and countryside. Certainly it's not a perfect compromise, but it's an understandably comfortable environment. Add to that the early foundations of America as a highly agrarian/market town society and it becomes even clearer why Americans still have a need for grass under their feet. Unlike in Europe where walled towns were normal for defensive purposes, America's earliest settlements were most often partly agricultural. For example, Boston Common was a place for herding sheep and Williamsburg was composed of houses on long, deep lots for individual gardens and raising chickens, etc. Ironically, in some ways suburbs are an extension of this tradition, although in their dispersion and relative inwardness they reflect a societal shift towards greater privatization and less emphasis on communal life.

Great post. This is so true. Just look at a most prewar neighborhoods from typical American cities. Most streets are exclusively residential, lined with detached houses set back from the street in a sea of green grass, trees and shrubs.

Most North American cities were built up as overgrown villages surrounding an older downtown core. Yeah, the bigger coastal cities more resembled old European cities, but that's because they were actually settled more than a century before railroads and streetcars allowed the urban form to first spread out. Back in the 16 and 1700s most people had no other choice but to walk.

Since the beginning, Americans were constantly moving out of the bustling city center. Yesterday's suburb is today's inner-city.

[downtownpdx]

A recent letter to the editor from Portland:

Turning back on downtown
The Sunday Oregonian article regarding downtown Portland and Lake Oswego's Kruse Way (Business, June 17) focused my attention on why I no longer do business downtown and why I frequently visit Kruse Way.

What are the downtown turnoffs? Traffic congestion, street people, homeless people, panhandlers, jaywalkers, no parking, metered parking and expensive parking, light rail on the surface, bus traffic and pollution, construction, bicycle riders, bicycle lanes, detours, potholes, trolleys, and I'm sure I've missed some things.

What does Kruse Way have? Good access, no traffic congestion, lots of free parking, open spaces with trees, shrubs and lawns, attractive buildings, well-run restaurants with good food and good shopping there and close by.

DON ROBISON
Southwest Portland
June 26, 2007


Several recent responses to the letter:
Downtown delights: livability, character (http://www.oregonlive.com/oregonian/stories/index.ssf?/base/editorial/1183164923109540.xml&coll=7)
I wrote in the first response letter :)

[JackStraw]

It's really on people's perspective. I came home from living in both the city of Philly and Denver and back to Pittsburgh. I am now living at home for 4 months while I save some money and get a place in the city. I love going downtown to the theaters, art museums, science center, or just walking and looking at the old and cool architecture. I took my suburbanite loving parents down once and they just annoy me. They drive through Moronville (Monroeville, PA) and look at how Circuit city is now a Best Buy, and how they have a new Starbucks and all that crap with so much excitement. Then they get downtown and stair at they guy holding a sign saying, “Homeless Need money” and get scared. I tell them to look at the Allegheny county courthouse (one of the most beautiful historic buildings in Pennsylvania and they say, “uh huh, its too old.” I love my parents, but they love their no sidewalk neighborhood, two-car garage, Walmart mentality. I just realized they will never get it. I think my generation is going to change. Many of us grew up in this everywhereville and are longing for a neighborhood feel and city feel more then ever. All these suburbanites want their piece of the country, but just turn it into a bland sterile environment ruining everything.

[flar]

^^sadly, most people I know think like your parents. Twice in the past week I've heard that the best "cure" for Downtown Hamilton is a B52 Bomber.

[Chicago103]

It's really on people's perspective. I came home from living in both the city of Philly and Denver and back to Pittsburgh. I am now living at home for 4 months while I save some money and get a place in the city. I love going downtown to the theaters, art museums, science center, or just walking and looking at the old and cool architecture. I took my suburbanite loving parents down once and they just annoy me. They drive through Moronville (Monroeville, PA) and look at how Circuit city is now a Best Buy, and how they have a new Starbucks and all that crap with so much excitement. Then they get downtown and stair at they guy holding a sign saying, “Homeless Need money” and get scared. I tell them to look at the Allegheny county courthouse (one of the most beautiful historic buildings in Pennsylvania and they say, “uh huh, its too old.” I love my parents, but they love their no sidewalk neighborhood, two-car garage, Walmart mentality. I just realized they will never get it. I think my generation is going to change. Many of us grew up in this everywhereville and are longing for a neighborhood feel and city feel more then ever. All these suburbanites want their piece of the country, but just turn it into a bland sterile environment ruining everything.

I dont think I know anyone that is that fargone that well. My parents are examples of relatively well rounded people who live in sprawl. They both grew up in the city but now live in the exurbs but they have never tried to tell me where to live, at least city vs. suburbs wise, they accept my life preferences in that regard and they do come downtown every now and then. Even my parents can appreciate old architecture, my mom likes looking at old churches, stately houses and neighborhoods even if she and dad really dont think about themselves living in such a place, my dad has something against living in old houses (even 25-30 years old) but he wouldnt as a visitor dismiss a beautifull historic building because its "blah, too old", to people who would say such a thing I am just like WTF?:koko:. You have to be pretty sedated and out there to completly dismiss everything old in every way shape and form.

Honestly the difference between me and my parents is that I find suburban sprawl architecture to be incredibly ugly whereas they just consider it to be neutral, to them its just there, they dont consider it to be beautifull or even good besides the utilitarian qualities they can use. Its neither gorgeous nor ugly it just is what it is, a-architectural in a way. Thats not my view but I can at least understand it, honestly I would have to hypnotize myself to think as little about it as possible if I was confined out there just so I wouldnt go nuts. But anyone that could consider Wal-Marts, strip malls and parking lots "beautifull" and old buildings are just "blah, too old" is as incomprehensible to me as someone who thought that the elephant man or the Emperor Palpatine in Star Wars is incredibly sexy but supermodels are just blah.

[pwright1]

i live close to downtown Seattle too but i dont think it has the best culture, entertainment, and shoppin in the Seattle area...
its just that downtowns are kind of hmm... boring in some cases... like Seattle
there are a lot of bums in downtown and crime but only around the shoping district and Pioneer square ... i guess junkees and bums like to shop and hang around the old best looking part of the city
i was downtown today actually but i was in the Columbia tower/ Seattle Public Library vicinity and it there were no shops in sight.... there were almost no bums or junkees in sight either...
maybe they get scared by all the business men and their brief cases
i guess it all depends where downtown u are!!


What area around here has the most then? I'm curious.

[Chicago103]

For argument's sake, I think we could flip the question around--reasons why urbanites will not go to the country. It may sound funny to those that have done any traveling, but there are a lot of people born and raised in the city that have never been beyond the suburbs and are intimidated by wild nature. Also the same argument can be said that city dwellers need to be educated by what the world has to offer outside the confines of a grid.

With all due respect it has been my experience that there are far fewer people who live in a city that are scared of nature/countryside than people who live in the country/suburbs that are scared of the city.

On the contrary many people who live in the city have better rugged survival skills than people who live in the suburbs do. I certainly am not scared of nature for instance, I am an Eage Scout who has gone camping many times and I could probably survive in the wilderness alot longer than many of these suburbanities who cant comprehend camping outside of a luxury RV. In the city you develop street smarts and how to deal with the real world which can equate with general survival skills that one can use in nature. To me it seems alot of the suburban mentality is just fear of something that you cant control or understand 100% and when you do just run away, thats not survival skills.

Secondly I understand what nature really is, its unspoiled wilderness or at most farm fields and compact small towns not Wal-Marts, strip malls and subdivisions that happen to abut the aformentioned. If you want to talk about living in the country then build a cabin in the woods and not a McMansion in a mass produced subdivision.

[bnk]

If more people just listened to Petula Clark...everyone would go Downtown!!!

lViqDIuS4fM

Thanks I really needed that.

When you're alone, and life is making you lonely
You can always go
Downtown

When you've got worries, all the noise and hurry
Seems to help, I know
Downtown

Just listen to the music of the traffic in the city,
Linger on the sidewalk where the neon signs are pretty
How can you lose? The lights are much brighter there...
You can forget all your troubles; forget all your cares, and go
Downtown -- things will be great when you're
Downtown -- you'll find a place for sure
Downtown -- everything's waiting for you

Downtown .... Downtown...

Don't hang around, and let your problems surround you,
There are movie shows
Downtown

Maybe you know some little places to go to
Where they never close
Downtown

Just listen to the rhythm of a gentle Bossa Nova
You'll be dancing with 'em too before the night is over,
Happy again...
The lights are much brighter there,
You can forget all your troubles; forget all your cares, and go
Downtown -- where all the lights are bright
Downtown -- waiting for you tonight
Downtown -- you're gonna be all right now...

Downtown...Downtown...Downtown...

Downtown!

Downtown!

And you may find somebody kind to help and understand you;
Someone who is just like you and needs a gentle hand to
Guide them along...
So maybe I'll see you there,
We can forget all our troubles; forget all our cares, and go
Downtown -- things will be great when you're
Downtown -- don't wait a minute more
Downtown -- everything's waiting for you...


Downtown!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/9a/Downtownsleeve.jpg/200px-Downtownsleeve.jpghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/ad/Hullabaloo.jpghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0f/MaChanson.jpg












Petula Clark 2007! below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwG7yBz5NuU




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petula_Clark

[JackStraw]

Chicago102: Ok, you have a point, they are not that bad. However, trust me, they are bad. They just don't take appreciation in anything when they are in the city. Since they are in the city they get nervous and can't enjoy anything. My brother is the same way. He moved to Sun Valley Idaho. I went to San fran with him, and the whole time it was like dragging Paris Hilton in the honkey tonks of Mississippi. He couldn't even take the time to appreciate the sites.

I agree with you on that statement about urbanites would do better in nature also. I was born and raised in the mountains of PA, and then later lived in three major cities, and my teenage years in the sprawling exburbs. The people who would survive the least would be the suburbinites. To them camping is either in a condo on wheels, and their survival skills are eating at a cracker barrel.

[Jeff_in_Dayton]

I was a kid when that Downtown song was a hit. I will forever associate it with Chicago's State Street of the 1960s.

Urbanites have an aesthetic appreciation of "the country". There is a long tradition in the US of weekend getaways to nearby rural areas. In Chicago it was traditionally the Chain of Lakes and Lake Geneva and vicinity further north of that. In Tornoto there is "cottage country". NYC has the Catskills and the Hamptons. For the very wealthy it was a mix of seasons..the country estate and city townhouse.

[sprtsluvr8]

Can someone please explain "suburban sprawl architecture"? The fact that most suburbs were small cities and towns prior to winning the title of "suburb" means that much of the architecture found there is not new or even recent. Much of the new and recent construction is found in subdivisions...which most of us don't use to identify these suburbs. When I think of a suburb, I picture the "downtown" area of it...not the sprawl. There is a difference...

[holladay]

Honestly the difference between me and my parents is that I find suburban sprawl architecture to be incredibly ugly whereas they just consider it to be neutral, to them its just there, they dont consider it to be beautifull or even good besides the utilitarian qualities they can use. Its neither gorgeous nor ugly it just is what it is, a-architectural in a way.

Really keen observations about the neutrality of the suburban landscape. Reyner Banham wrote in the 1960s that Americans would do away with architecture altogether if they could, because they feel no need for it. I think you hit on this same point.

[Chicago103]

Can someone please explain "suburban sprawl architecture"? The fact that most suburbs were small cities and towns prior to winning the title of "suburb" means that much of the architecture found there is not new or even recent. Much of the new and recent construction is found in subdivisions...which most of us don't use to identify these suburbs. When I think of a suburb, I picture the "downtown" area of it...not the sprawl. There is a difference...

If you picture the downtown areas of old suburbs as what exemplifies the suburbs then good for you, consider yourself lucky and that represents the way suburbs should be. The problem is that many suburbanities, probably a majority of them dont live in places such as this, there is a whole spectrum of course but in general suburban sprawl architecture means that it is just the mass produced subdivision, huge multi-lane roads with little or no sidewalks that connect isolated pockets of parking lots, strip malls, big box stores, bland billboards and cluttering signage and more parking. This constitutes most of the new development in this country from the 1960's onwards outside of major urban areas and even alot of the stuff built in urban areas. The suburban mentality represents people who spend their entire day to day lives in these environments and consider it to be as routine and natural as getting out of bed in the morning and living outside that box is incomprehensible or even something to fear.

In terms of streetcar suburbs and old former small town downtowns of now sprawling suburbs well its a place that many suburban minded like to go antique shopping or attend the yesteryear fair in the summer but many wouldnt want to live in the old houses on the gridded streets in the center of town because they are too old and/or too small, not enough garage space for their cars, etc.

In terms of those that do live in those older sections they probably are more likely to be the type that would adjust well to visiting and/or living in the city. Sure there are many who live in sprawl hell that can appreciate the city, my parents amoung them but there are a very distrubing number that are just so out of it and quite frankly are ignorant, sedated and paranoid robots that cant think for themselves. These people often dont have a firm grasp of tradition or history even though they beat the small town pride, patriotism drum alot to them they have no real understanding of it besides a passing cliche spending a day at the living old village museum, the yesteryear fair and the antique mall but the vast majority of their time is just laying around the house and going to Wal-Mart, the office park, Applebees and places that are near clones of the aformentioned. It may sound bizarre but I living in downtown Chicago am living a lifestyle closer to small town existence than most of these people, hell many people who live in Manhattan live more small townesque lifestyles than many of the people living in middle america these days.

[Chicago103]

Smalltown and country people are overwhelmed by cities. My mother in law came up for a visit to Hamilton, and said she needed some material for sewing. I took her to the textile district on Ottawa St. where there are several blocks of sewing stores. She looked around for a bit but didn't buy anything. On the way home, she stopped at a big box Fabricland in the suburbs and got what she needed. Incidentally, she was in a Fabricland in the textile district.

But to me this isnt an example of someone who is intimidated by the big city because they are used to small town life but rather someone who has trouble doing daily activities outside of the suburban mentality box, the type that if there was a fabricland on the main street of their small town where they would have to park on the street they would still rather go to the big box fabricland on the outskirts. Honestly I would think that someone that is entrenched in traditional small town life (lacking sprawl) would be equally if not more intimidated by sprawling big box clusters as multi block urban shopping districts in larger cities and Hamilton is hardly that big for that matter. I mean if I had a time machine and I brought someone from 1940 small town america to a Super Wal-Mart parking lot of today are you telling me they wouldnt be overwhelmed?

[Chicago103]

^ Precisely some good points, mcfinley. Perhaps, in fact, the reason so many Americans prefer the suburbs is that they want a little of both civic life and countryside. Certainly it's not a perfect compromise, but it's an understandably comfortable environment. Add to that the early foundations of America as a highly agrarian/market town society and it becomes even clearer why Americans still have a need for grass under their feet. Unlike in Europe where walled towns were normal for defensive purposes, America's earliest settlements were most often partly agricultural. For example, Boston Common was a place for herding sheep and Williamsburg was composed of houses on long, deep lots for individual gardens and raising chickens, etc. Ironically, in some ways suburbs are an extension of this tradition, although in their dispersion and relative inwardness they reflect a societal shift towards greater privatization and less emphasis on communal life.

Yes but how did the agrarian traditions in this country evolve into the suburban mentality of today? Contemporary sprawl resembles an agrarian lifestyle as much as the Frankenstein monster resembles typical human beings.

[Chicago3rd]

Yes but how did the agrarian traditions in this country evolve into the suburban mentality of today? Contemporary sprawl resembles an agrarian lifestyle as much as the Frankenstein monster resembles typical human beings.


Thank you! And it wasn't like Europe wasn't agrarian for 2,000 years or more. Also all the small farming communites that I have been to or lived in have had a wonderful "non-suburban" sprawal feel to them.

[holladay]

Yes but how did the agrarian traditions in this country evolve into the suburban mentality of today? Contemporary sprawl resembles an agrarian lifestyle as much as the Frankenstein monster resembles typical human beings.

I agree fully with you that the suburban lifestyle is not agrarian. Suburbia makes no reverence for nature, nor does it actively encourage those who call it home to take up gardening, open the windows to let in the breeze, or even come outside more often. Instead, as is the rather unfortunate case, the suburbs tend to hermetically seal people inside their homes except when they waste countless hours each year tending to their useless ornamental lawns.

Having said all that, I couldn't fully explain the leapfrog from our agrarian past to our suburban present. But I think from the constant popularity of suburbs since at least the late 19th century one could say that the city has never really held the hearts of Americans. As soon as technology found a way for us not to live too close to one another we started to run for the hills. First it was the streetcar, then the automobile. Presumably we would have left the city earlier if we had been able to. I think part of it is that old nationalist pride that says, "Since we have so much land and so many resources in our fine nation, then by God why should we ever confine ourselves?" Clearly that mindset has been ingrained in Americans for generations. Add to it all of the advertising that was put out between 1945-1970 that hailed dishwashers, color TVs, electric irons, blenders, and vacuum cleaners, and this cultural need for a private home and lots of technological goodies to fill it up with becomes even stronger.

So, really, it's all a matter of what people have been encouraged to believe, and in America, the big message has almost always been that the city is a bad place for families and everyone deserves a house better than their parents' and a yard for the kids. You know, all that "American Dream" mumbo jumbo... It has roots that go way back. I'd have to really do research and write a book on it to give a complete answer. But I still think it stems from the North American patterns of settlement in the 17th and 18th centuries. Go back and look at Savannah, Charleston, and all of the colonial towns of New England and Virginia and you will see a commonality between them: buildings constructed prior to 1800 were almost always stand-alone units. New England saltboxes, Charleston rows, Mid-Atlantic Georgian townhouses, they were all single-family homes. Clearly, the tradition runs deep.

[Cambridgite]

:previous: You nailed it!!

[shovel_ready]

But I still think [the American Dream] stems from the North American patterns of settlement in the 17th and 18th centuries. Go back and look at Savannah, Charleston, and all of the colonial towns of New England and Virginia and you will see a commonality between them: buildings constructed prior to 1800 were almost always stand-alone units. New England saltboxes, Charleston rows, Mid-Atlantic Georgian townhouses, they were all single-family homes. Clearly, the tradition runs deep.

This is actually a cultural carry-over from England. The urban English were always known to prefer townhouses/rows/terraces over apartment blocks. Wheras, cities from continental Europe, especially Paris, have always been about large apartment buildings.

So I guess it's safe to say that North American urbanism evolved as a more agrarian version of the English urban form. America more often than not embraced the humble village form rather than the bustling cosmopolitan city.

[SpongeG]

all the freaks and weirdos live downtown

like she sang in that till tuesday song - hush hush now keep it down downtown's scary

hehe i know its voices carry

downtown is where all the fringes of society end up perhaps? the gay, the homeless, the runaways, etc. and they don't want to see it and if they don't see it than it doesn't exist?

[djvandrake]

I agree fully with you that the suburban lifestyle is not agrarian. Suburbia makes no reverence for nature, nor does it actively encourage those who call it home to take up gardening, open the windows to let in the breeze, or even come outside more often. Instead, as is the rather unfortunate case, the suburbs tend to hermetically seal people inside their homes except when they waste countless hours each year tending to their useless ornamental lawns.

Having said all that, I couldn't fully explain the leapfrog from our agrarian past to our suburban present. But I think from the constant popularity of suburbs since at least the late 19th century one could say that the city has never really held the hearts of Americans. As soon as technology found a way for us not to live too close to one another we started to run for the hills. First it was the streetcar, then the automobile. Presumably we would have left the city earlier if we had been able to. I think part of it is that old nationalist pride that says, "Since we have so much land and so many resources in our fine nation, then by God why should we ever confine ourselves?" Clearly that mindset has been ingrained in Americans for generations. Add to it all of the advertising that was put out between 1945-1970 that hailed dishwashers, color TVs, electric irons, blenders, and vacuum cleaners, and this cultural need for a private home and lots of technological goodies to fill it up with becomes even stronger.

So, really, it's all a matter of what people have been encouraged to believe, and in America, the big message has almost always been that the city is a bad place for families and everyone deserves a house better than their parents' and a yard for the kids. You know, all that "American Dream" mumbo jumbo... It has roots that go way back. I'd have to really do research and write a book on it to give a complete answer. But I still think it stems from the North American patterns of settlement in the 17th and 18th centuries. Go back and look at Savannah, Charleston, and all of the colonial towns of New England and Virginia and you will see a commonality between them: buildings constructed prior to 1800 were almost always stand-alone units. New England saltboxes, Charleston rows, Mid-Atlantic Georgian townhouses, they were all single-family homes. Clearly, the tradition runs deep.

:previous: Outstanding post.

For my city it boils down to one word. Crime. Whether it's real or percieved, there is a genuine fear among all those that live outside the beltway that downtown is very dangerous. Downtown certainly has it's problems, but all areas do. The burbs are a real false sense of security at times.

I live less than a mile from my downtown, and I'm right next to an outstanding park. My neighborhood is full of active gardeners and outdoor enthusiasts. We have a whole list of summertime events that focus on getting together, getting to know one another, and enjoying our very walkable neighborhood. When I lived in the burbs, everyone would drive into their garage and shut the door. You never saw anyone out and about. I will forevermore be an urbanite.

[Drew-Ski]

The reason downtown is no longer a destination, is that the suburbs has stoled the thunder away, deflecting all the developers investment dollars. In many cities, the suburbs keep building up and moving farther out and leaving the core to succumb to decay, crime and neglect.....the classic donut effect. Here in PDX the opposite is true. The downtown here is the epicenter for cultural activity , transportation, and many other civic functions. Downtown is the life blood of the region and everybody flocks here. Billions of dollars has been invested in many types of projects turning downtown Portland into a textbook example of urban livability. It can be done anywhere if the community chooses to do so.

[Frisco_Zig]

in the Bay Area few people stay away from downtowns I am guessing. Far fewer than before at least

When you consider San Francisco but also the suburban downtowns and commercial streets around there has been a real revival to the point where indoor malls for the most part are declining and many are lower class

[b-s]

The reason downtown is no longer a destination, is that the suburbs has stoled the thunder away, deflecting all the developers investment dollars. In many cities, the suburbs keep building up and moving farther out and leaving the core to succumb to decay, crime and neglect.....the classic donut effect. Here in PDX the opposite is true. The downtown here is the epicenter for cultural activity , transportation, and many other civic functions. Downtown is the life blood of the region and everybody flocks here. Billions of dollars has been invested in many types of projects turning downtown Portland into a textbook example of urban livability. It can be done anywhere if the community chooses to do so.

What are the demographics of Portland and how does it compare to other cities the same size, type, and age?

[miketoronto]

Portland is actually at a sort of crossroads right now though, in terms of keeping downtown the "place to be". Portland up untill a couple years ago was able to maintain a downtown with stores that you could not find anywhere else in the region, and to keep it the major centre for not only culture, but shopping.

However I have heard over the last couple years Metro Portland has allowed larger malls and lifestyle centres to start stealing away some of the thunder from downtown.
So the question is will Portland rise up and stop all that suburban expansion, and keep downtown the centre, or will it let the suburbs start to take the thunder away from downtown.

The reason so many of our downtowns have fallen, is because we have basically made it so that there is no more a reason to go downtown or into the city. And that is sad.

Look at Indianapolis. People are up in arms in some circles, because Nordstroms is thinking of opening a second store in a suburban mall. Right now the only Nordstroms is in downtown Indy. People already know, the min a suburban Nordstroms is opened, the major reason people went downtown will not be there anymore.

[OmegaPaladin]

You can thanks the media for part of the dislike of the downtown. I grew up with a view that houses did not exist in the city. I assumed that people lived in the suburbs in they had a house. Imagine my surprise when I saw the bungalow belt... Combine that with the constant reporting about crime with wannabe gangsters blaring rap music, and you have a perception of a land of skyscrapers, museums, and horrendous ghettos. I would never have imagine that I would be able to ride past housing projects or walk through downtown late at night.

Suburbia does not resemble a city or a small town. I grew up in a town with 3900 residents, and the old part of town does NOT look like a SUBDIVISION! It has alleys, sidewalks, and a grid pattern. The houses are bigger than in the city, but are still fairly close to each other. The new, suburbanized part, looks very different. The outlying commercial areas are suburbanized faster though.

[Andrea]

Yes but how did the agrarian traditions in this country evolve into the suburban mentality of today? Contemporary sprawl resembles an agrarian lifestyle as much as the Frankenstein monster resembles typical human beings.

I read a pretty good book on this recently called The New Suburban History

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/hfs.cgi/00/186418.ctl

[tdawg]

if you're small-minded and not willing to be open to diversity and the differences of people, then you will hate a big city and that is unfortunate. if you genuinely crave constantly learning and having your eyes open to something new, then a big city is a refreshing, sometimes frustrating but always exciting place to be. Everyday in New York, at least once, i notice something new that makes my day. It makes all the hassles (crowded subways, expensive rents, trash) worth it.

[Drew-Ski]

[QUOTE=miketoronto;2965050]Portland is actually at a sort of crossroads right now though, in terms of keeping downtown the "place to be". Portland up untill a couple years ago was able to maintain a downtown with stores that you could not find anywhere else in the region, and to keep it the major centre for not only culture, but shopping.

However I have heard over the last couple years Metro Portland has allowed larger malls and lifestyle centres to start stealing away some of the thunder from downtown.
So the question is will Portland rise up and stop all that suburban expansion, and keep downtown the centre, or will it let the suburbs start to take the thunder away from downtown.


This statement would only be true if PDX's Downtown were laying idle and not expanding also. Keep in mind the activities going on downtown:

Transportaion-1. Expanded Downtown Streetcar Access to surrounding districs that are currently attracting thousands of new residents. There is talk of eventually expanding the Streetcars across the Willamette River and beyond into surrounding districs. 2. A $325 Million upgrade of Downtown Bus Transit Mall connecting to every suburb in the region. 3. Light Rail expansion to the SE suburbs. 4. Aerial Tram which is serving dual purpose of shuttle from SOWA to OHSU and becoming a Tourist attraction. 5. The excistance and ever expanding Bike Path network which allows a safe and convienent passage to downtown.

Condo Boom-The South Waterfront Distric (SOWA), Pearl Distric, West End Distric(s) have/are adding thousands of new units. Across the Willamette River there are plans to create large scale numbers of condo units in that area too.

Shopping- There are several large scale remodels going on which will help maintain or boost the cities attractiveness to shoppers. And best of all is the street scene. One of the joys in going to downtown, is the discovery of all the small unique shops, restaurants, clubs, parks, and energy you can only get downtown. In the Suburban Malls I have never witnessed the carnival atmosphere found in the core.

It is true that the suburbs are getting very aggressive with Super Malls and the New Lifestyle Centers, catering to a growing population base. But keep in mind, with downtown becoming so accessable to everyone, everywhere, along with a booming residential presence, the future of downtown Portland never looked better.