Light-Rail in SA - A Potential Revival?

[sakyle04]

From a morning story in the Express-News about the battle for the City Council seat in District 8:

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/metro/stories/MYSA042807.01B.District_eight.34fe0d1.html


Candidates such as Stribling, 51, and Obledo, 37, want to revive the prospect of building light rail in the city and creating multimodal, regional transportation plans.

Obledo said revisiting light rail, an effort that failed to gain voter approval in 2000, would do more than alleviate congestion.

"Think of the impact it could have," Obledo said. "It would stimulate the economy, provide jobs and it would mean cleaner air. I think it could truly revitalize areas when you look at the dead zones."

Stribling said a transportation plan should look out 20 to 25 years and include accurate population projections. "I'm not sure if changing the timing of lights is going to help in the long term."

[Jeeper]

I'm kind of surprised that SA doesn't already have light rail on some scale. It's a big city with a very popular CBD. What's the major factor preventing it from happening, politics?

[coddat]

It's lack of funding. There was a vote on funding a light rail system in the early 2000's. It failed badly. The proposed system serviced the Southside and the Northwest side with no North central or Northeast route. IMO that was unfair some of the most congested areas would get no relief and their was no promise of further expansion. As a SA voter I would only vote for a started system that would prove it's self like in houston, or A full system that services the Northside as well or better than the mostly rural southside.

[METALMiKE]

This is the map that was proposed back in 2000.
http://www.lightrail.com/maps/sanantonio/sanantoniomap.gif

[Jeeper]

Wow, judging by that map the 2000 plan was pretty damn ambitious. No wonder it failed. Gotta start small and simple, and let the system prove itself.

[sakyle04]

:previous:

Could someone find and post the startup plans (maps) for Dallas and Houston's light rail...?

[METALMiKE]

More accurate map below from Double L.

[sakyle04]

^ That is much less ambitious...

[METALMiKE]

Maybe the best plan for S.A. would be Downtown to the Airport.

[sakyle04]

^ I agree. There would be a bunch of upset cabbies, though. :hell:

That would guarantee riders, with potential stops near museums, SAC/Trinity/UIW and the Quarry...

I like it a lot.

[Onward]

I really hope the city gets going on this soon. Was up in St louis recently, I took their metro everywhere. It was really useful from the Aiport to the place i was staying. Not to mention we used it to go downtown quite a bit.

[sirkingwilliam]

I think any start line should either connect downtown with the North Star Mall and Airport area or downtown to the Medical Center.

[arbeiter]

Maybe the best plan for S.A. would be Downtown to the Airport.

Well at least they built something! And are continuing to expand...

[Double L]

That Houston map is not accurate.

This is the first line which was proposed in 2000 and completed in 2004.

http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/houston/images/img1.gif

This is the full system that voters approved in 2003.

http://www.lightrailnow.org/images/hou-metro-solutions-rail-map.jpg

[vertex]

Noticed your thread. Thought I'd share a couple of thoughts regarding Phoenix's development.

Phoenix tried 3 times to get some sort of light rail plan approved by voters. The first (1989) was the most ambitious, and was defeated 2-1 at the polls. The second was scaled back, and was defeated by a narrower margin. The third time (in 2000) was the charm. Voters approved an even smaller starter line (it is still pretty large for a starter segment), 20 miles in length, with 27 stations, and spanning 3 cities, at a cost $1.4 billion.

In 2004, before construction on the starter line had even begun, Maricopa county voters approved a half-cent sales tax to fund an overall transit package worth $16 billion, about $4.5 billion of that going to the extension the light rail for an additional 57 miles. Opponents pulled out all of the usual arguments, but to no avail, it won 57-43 percent.

Now we have cities fighting to join the regional board, and are jockeying for position for a new route. The map below shows the 20-mile starter segment. New routes are in the planning stage, and won't be decided upon for another year.

My impression is that S.A.'s initial plan was too ambitious, much like Phoenix's. If you were to have a proposition that tied a smaller light-rail segment with bus expansion and freeway money (and presented to the voters the right way) it could probably pass.

http://kjzz.org:8080/images/news/stationsMap-low.jpg

[sirkingwilliam]

I think with someone like Sheryl Scully now in charge and the growth and change SA has gone through since 2000, that a vote now or within the next few years would pass. I agree through, a small starter line connecting downtown to the North Star Mall/airport area and maybe to Stone Oak i.e the 281/Stone Oak Parkway intersection were developments like Park North and Tacara are being built. I think it should be done now so that it could some way be integrated with the starter toll lanes (281 from 1604 to Borgfield Rd).

What I believe should happen is the lines north end is Stone Oak Pkwy/281 and the south end is the future A&M campus. I think another line that should be created (besides downtown to medical center) is a line connecting downtown with the at&t center to the east and that heads west then southwest towards Port San Antonio and then finally the Toyota plant.

[vertex]

:previous: Holy crap, I almost forgot, guess where Sheryl Scully's previous gig was before San Antonio?!

You guys are very lucky to have her.

[elmariachi]

I don't know if any of you listen to talk radio, but they were big opponents of the last light-rail proposal. Fortunately, more and more of the talk show hosts are coming around to the idea. Just a couple months ago I heard Ricky Ware on KTSA saying that it is about time that SA does something about traffic, and he mentioned light rail as a possibilitythat he would like to see. I agree that the last plan was to ambitious. I think people are getting friendlier to the idea. I hope something like this gets done soon.

[arbeiter]

I don't understand how this kind of stuff ever had to be public referenda anyway - We are one of the few countries in the world, developed or developing, that allows the public to make (often misinformed) decisions about things like transportation. If it weren't for this, San Antonio would probably have a light rail system by now, and so would most other US cities that currently don't.

[jaga185]

So very true, arbeiter

[leaf]

:previous:

Could someone find and post the startup plans (maps) for Dallas and Houston's light rail...?

Remove the Trinity Rail and the Red and Blue lines above Mockingbird and you'll have something close to the starter system.

http://www.dart.org/images/DARTRailSystemFeb07.gif


This is what is under construction right now:

http://www.dart.org/images/expansion/greenlinemaplargefeb07.gif

http://www.dart.org/images/expansion/orangelinemap.gif

[sakyle04]

^ I am so jealous.

My train network in July will not be too bad though (Johannesburg, South Africa):

http://www.metrorail.co.za/Regional-WITS/routes_wits.html

[coddat]

Dart is great, except they are missing a crosstown east west line. I work near the Galleria and there isn't a light rail station close at all.

[NDtexan]

Dart is great, except they are missing a crosstown east west line. I work near the Galleria and there isn't a light rail station close at all.

Well when it's not rush hour, the LBJ/Central line is just 5 minutes away by car from the Galleria. But I would love to somehow see a line go up the tollway and one go east-west along LBJ from Garland to DFW airport.

Oh and in case you didn't know, there are preliminary plans for a commuter route(i believe) running along the old Cotton Belt corridor freight tracks from Plano to the airport. It's just part of the 2030 transportation plan though, so it might not be coming for a real long time.

[leaf]

Dart is great, except they are missing a crosstown east west line. I work near the Galleria and there isn't a light rail station close at all.

An east-west line is being planned from downtown Plano to downtown Fort Worth via Addison, downtown Carrollton and DFW airport. DART has already purchased the ROW all the way into Wylie. Another line will go from Addison to the Galleria and onto one of the Red line stations. These segments will become the focus after the current LRT construction is finished.

More info here: http://www.nctcog.org/trans/mtp/current/mob2025-2005amend_rail.pdf

[alexjon]

I write letters to city council reps and the newspapers all the time about light rail, I hope they pay off to some extent, even if I didn't do a bit of good to urge it on.

Anyway, after weeks of doodling and poring over maps, this is MY proposal:
Line 1, 2012 start date, Deco Line (BRT): From the westside multimodal station up to fred road, to the med center. Stage 1 expansion to UTSA, stage 2 to La Cantera/Fiesta Texas. Stage 3 upgrade to LRT.

Fiesta Line (LRT): From downtown, up broadway, with concessions for the battle of flowers and flambeau parades (hence the name), including a turn around just north of the staging area, and an express bypass with temporary stations. Stage 1 expansion to the Quarry, Stage 2 down to Kelly USA.

Spurs Line (LRT): Crosstown train that runs downtown on commerce and market. Terminates at the SBC Center and SWRI. Stage 1 expansion to Sea World.

Skyline (LRT/Shuttle): Airport line from downtown with central station and shuttles at airport. Stage 1 expansion to Brooks AFB.

VIA Rapid (BRT): Loop 410 and Loop 1604 BRT lines.

I've said it before and I'll say it again-- as a grass roots campaign, we can definitely get ideas and plans made. As a group, I'm sure we know enough about design and implementation to come up with a good 15 year starter plan.

[sakyle04]

^ alexjon rocks.

[alexjon]

The Deco Line, which is meant to model the proposed BRT line, includes medians with expandable light poles that can be capped with catenary supports when converted to LRT. These poles mimic the art deco style to expand the neighborhood scheme from the oak farms dairy to the med center. I augmented the idea for within the med center to include a more subdued design, due to the necessity of being able to replace poles easily should there be an accident. Replacing concrete cast light poles would certainly be a hassle, and would tie up traffic in the med center which is what we don't want.


You know, we should get some input from M1EK on this one... Austin screwed up, but maybe SA stands a chance, here! :)

[sirkingwilliam]

Alex, do you live in SA? If so, why not try to run for a position that could make something like that happen.

[alexjon]

I'm in Portland, OR for the time being getting my education and work experience up to snuff. It's part of the reason I'm seeing the light rail issue with a bit more clarity, since both sides of the issue are visible on a day to day basis here.

However, growing up in SA for over 20 years, it's certainly home, and definitely the place I'm going to settle back into.

[sirkingwilliam]

What about a subway line? Could that work?

[sakyle04]

:previous:

Regarding a subway system - South Texas limestone makes that almost impossible - it would just be too expensive.

Besides, the capital that would be required to build such a system could never be justified by potential ridership in SA. Even with a great LRT system in 30 years, the vast majority of people will still drive - just like in Dallas.

[alexjon]

To prove itself, the starter lines would have to go to the places people absolutely positively have a hard time getting to at points, like the SBC center.

One notion I had was a double-length express train that made limited stops from the westside multimodal to the SBC center and utilized an "all-stop" crossing system to block out as many intersections as necessary when crossing. Game day only, of course, but it would certainly be worth its weight in gold now that the spurs have come into their own with a winning line-up

[sakyle04]

^ alexjon - when you return from portland, can we at the forum sponsor your run for city council?

[alexjon]

Sure! I'll run on a platform of "San Antonio is the only city that could possibly starve with lunch money in its hand in the middle of a bargain cafeteria."

Seriously, there are millions of dollars that SA is ignoring and it's aggravating me.

Also, "the vast majority" of people won't drive when all the private right of ways are turned into toll lanes and we learn what exactly "critical mass" on a road entails.