Ignorance and fear of downtowns of all shapes and sizes

[Chicago103]

There was a thread in the Mountain West subforum that got shut down because it went way off track but I found some of it to be very interesting and worthy of discussion over here.

Basically its about ignorant statements and fear that suburban minded people have of downtowns and its not just restricted to mega cities like NYC or Chicago or places with a reputation like Detroit either, we are talking about stories of people being intimidated by places like downtown Phoenix and Colorado Springs!

Some select quotes that grabbed my attention:

Phoenix
I was sitting at the bar and he met his friends there right next to me and when they asked why he was late he stated it took 20 minutes to park because he wouldnt park on the street downtown. He says all downtowns are good for is creating crime. I put down my fork full of delicious Sam's Cafe enchiladas and told him I felt offended as I live downtown and consider it anything but ghetto. He told me he was afraid someone would steal his brand new Acura... I then told him I'd love to take him to my house and show him all the Bentleys and Ferraris parked outside where all the ghetto people can steal them but don't.

GOD I HATE IGNORANT PEOPLE!! any ideas why people have pre-concieved notions about downtowns? its a statistic that DT Phoenix has one of the lowest crime rates in the entire city!


I know how you feel Vandercock. I have a friend who came down to my apartment w/ his girlfriend the other day so he could go to the library and then have lunch with me. We also went by some of the houses on 4th Street and Roosevelt, because a guy was selling bikes in his yard and my friend is in the market for a bike. He looked at some of the cool old houses and said "I think it would be fun to live down here and bike around" and his girlfriend said "ick, all the houses look the same"

WHAT!!?!!?!?!??!?!?!?

My head nearly exploded. These two live in North Scottsdale in an apartment complex on Tbird and Thompson Peak, and you think the houses in downtown all look the same? Wow.

This annoyed me, and she kept saying negative things about the Central City and complaining how 'old' everything is. So I took her through Willo and Encanto and said "look, these houses are old, and their amazing and unique"....she said "these are nice, but they look expensive, why don't these people live in Scottsdale?"

It was an annoying evening.



Colorado Springs

LOL. I used to have a co-worker who refuses to live downtown. In any city. Her words were something to the effect of "downtown's scare me." This in the context of a conversation about Downtown Colorado Springs, of all places to be scared of. Some people seem to have the idea that if its not made up of cookie cutter single family homes with big yards and SUV's in the driveway, it must be dangerous. She lives in Richmond, VA now. She must be TERRIFIED!


An American tourist in Rome

I will never forget while on a stroll through Rome, an American tourist exclaimed with disdain," Oh,everything is so old." Of course, when happening upon a bright new Holiday Inn she exclaimed with delight, "Oh, now thats nice."

Go Figure.....

Does anyone else have any horror stories to report? It amazes me how ignorant some people are and I think decentralized employment is the primary culprit of this moreso than residential suburbanization. Since if you work in a downtown workforce people wont be ignorant of downtown, I cant imagine working out in office park hell and dealing with these kinds of people as coworkers. An entire generation of people whom anything urban or downtown is something foreign and to be feared, it has to be new and suburban for some people to relate to it and at most you can get these people to visit antique shops on main street or vacation in a big city but to them it is just a playground, real life and real people to them are those that drive around to strip malls and office parks day in and day out, its quite sad. These people have no real sense of place, whenever they think of the city/area in which they live they dont think about the history of the city, the things that make it unique but probably just the number of super Wal-Marts are in their vincinity off the expressway or highway at the edge of town. It really is the geography of nowhere.

[LordMandeep]

The rest is typical...

that Rome part has made me lose faith in Humanity...

My god, anyone who finds a holiday Inn cooler then ancient Rome or medieval Rome, needs to be shot...

[miketoronto]

I deal with the opposite. I live in a part of Toronto called Scarborough. Scarborough to be honest is a great community, yet it gets a bad rap because like anyplace it has its bad areas, and its nice.

Anyway I always deal with people from other parts of the city, who get freaked when I tell them I am from Scarborough, and they make remarks like "ohh better get a bullet proof vest", etc.

So I know what its like. Alot of people at my work are anti-Scarborough and I always have to defend it :)

[BnaBreaker]

They've been trained to believe such bullshit like dogs. They're mindless robotic slaves to their own ignorance. They're paranoid, intellectually bankrupt whackos with no depth whatsoever who incapable of using logic and are terrified of change or anything else that causes the slightest ripple in their 'comfortable' grasp on reality.

That's my explanation.

[miketoronto]

I do have one co-worker actually who is from a small town and moved into Toronto for uni and now for work. Anyway she is funny, because she does get freaked out, and when she was on the late evening shift, she use to complain about having to walk the 5min from our office to the subway station. She would make it out to be this big deal how she is so freaked of muggers. Yet I could not it through her head that she was walking down streets with tons of people walking around even at that hour, and that she was in the CBD, which is very very safe for the most part.

But she would just freak. It was kinda funny, but got annoying after a while.

[Chicago103]

The rest is typical...

that Rome part has made me lose faith in Humanity...

My god, anyone who finds a holiday Inn cooler then ancient Rome or medieval Rome, needs to be shot...

That quote really got to me, its like some people cant relate to anything besides contemporary suburban american culture. They would probably have trouble relating to the cultural institutions and historic sites in the historic cores of their own towns much less anything in Europe.

The airheaded woman that thought old houses in an urban area all looked the same and "icky" also got to me, I find it quite odd that someone living in sprawl could look at an urban block and say everything looks the same, almost as if they are conditioned to believe anything urban looks the same and suburban areas somehow are not. Also how she wondered why those people didnt live in the suburbs, I mean what the hell does she expect for neighborhoods with old houses to just be abandoned, turned into museums at best and just left to rot and be forgotten at worst? A complete failure to understand why anyone would choose to live in a place different than where they do.

[PhillyRising]

It would be pretty funny if anyone says that around here considering Center City is one of the safest places in all of Philadelphia.

[MonkeyRonin]

The rest is typical...

that Rome part has made me lose faith in Humanity...

My god, anyone who finds a holiday Inn cooler then ancient Rome or medieval Rome, needs to be shot...

Why would someone even go to Rome in the first place if they hate old and dense cities? And if they didn't know that beforehand.. I'm suprised they even know how to get a plane ticket (or afford a trip for that matter).

And that "they all look the same" comment.. oh man

[Chicago103]

They've been trained to believe such bullshit like dogs. They're mindless robotic slaves to their own ignorance. They're paranoid, intellectually bankrupt whackos with no depth whatsoever who incapable of using logic and are terrified of change or anything else that causes the slightest ripple in their 'comfortable' grasp on reality.

That's my explanation.

Thats basically what I wanted to say but I was trying not to be blunt out of fear I would get flamed for saying it.

I would argue there is a large psychological component of suburbia, its a place where you are meant to be almost oblivious to your surroundings, it doesnt require any though, you just drive about your business, the landscape is meant to be a-cultural, a-historical and a-architectural and not worthy of thought. An urban area or traditional town is the exact opposite, an area that has historic, cultural and architectural meaning where the built environment provokes thought and thus when people who are used to not thinking about such things encounter something that is meant to be thought provoking they are wierded out because for a few seconds their brains are attempting to access creative centers they are out of practice in using and then that wierdness turns into fear of something they are unfamiliar with. Of course this doesnt apply to all or even most people living in suburbia but I think it is an accurate assessment of the people that are the most far gone in the suburban mentality.

I am a religious person who has no problem with organized religion or anything but I think the main reason that fundamentalist megachurches exist out in the exurbs is because everything else in their lives has no meaning by design and thus religion is the only thing left to cling to that has any real meaning besides the shallow and superficial.

[jeicow]

They've been trained to believe such bullshit like dogs. They're mindless robotic slaves to their own ignorance. They're paranoid, intellectually bankrupt whackos with no depth whatsoever who incapable of using logic and are terrified of change or anything else that causes the slightest ripple in their 'comfortable' grasp on reality.
Couldn't you say the same of the downtowner's view on the suburbs?

[Buckeye Native 001]

Lets all pat ourselves on the back!

[Attrill]

I would argue there is a large psychological component of suburbia, its a place where you are meant to be almost oblivious to your surroundings, it doesnt require any though, you just drive about your business, the landscape is meant to be a-cultural, a-historical and a-architectural and not worthy of thought.

I completely agree. Additionally, if someone owns their home they have made a choice to invest in a significant amount of money into the choice of living in the suburbs. People making choosing to live somewhere else could be seen as a threat to that investment. The reverse can apply as well.

I also think television crime and police shows play a part as well. Far too many people get their impressions of urban areas from crap tv.

[Jeff_in_Dayton]

This reminds me a bit of a thread I parented about the anti-city opinions over at City-Data forums....but the comment about Rome does take the cake, doesn't it/? Does one not go to Rome because it IS old?

:shrug:

The love of newness and that fresh paint smell is almost a bit retro, sort of like the fiftys....but the change is that newness then was tied to a certain future-forward modernity, and I am not sure thats whats going on here with this current day infatuation with the "new".

For the sameness aspect, well, take a look at some older prewar neighborhoods, usually from the 1920s, and the houses sometimes all do look the same (and are smaller and close together, compared with suburbia).

[Jeff_in_Dayton]

would argue there is a large psychological component of suburbia, its a place where you are meant to be almost oblivious to your surroundings, it doesnt require any though, you just drive about your business, the landscape is meant to be a-cultural, a-historical and a-architectural and not worthy of thought.

Suburbia as the eternal present. This is an interesting concept.


But, since we've had 50 years of suburbia, perhaps there is more "history" and depth than one suspects, and perhaps the suburbanites themselves pick up on this?

[Chicago103]

This reminds me a bit of a thread I parented about the anti-city opinions over at City-Data forums....but the comment about Rome does take the cake, doesn't it/? Does one not go to Rome because it IS old?

:shrug:

The love of newness and that fresh paint smell is almost a bit retro, sort of like the fiftys....but the change is that newness then was tied to a certain future-forward modernity, and I am not sure thats whats going on here with this current day infatuation with the "new".

For the sameness aspect, well, take a look at some older prewar neighborhoods, usually from the 1920s, and the houses sometimes all do look the same (and are smaller and close together, compared with suburbia).

She probably just went to Rome because its a popular thing to do because the travel channel said so and its like going to the Olive Garden only better. In terms of expecting it to be old, well some people dont bother to think about it deeply enough to put two and two together.

[BnaBreaker]

Couldn't you say the same of the downtowner's view on the suburbs?

Well first of all, this shouldn't be broken down into "downtowners" and "suburbanites" because even most suburbanites I know aren't anywhere near this extreme with their opinions on the matter. I am referring to only those who are this out there.

To answer your question though, no, I absolutely don't think you can say the same thing about the 'typical urbanite's view of suburbia and I am very curious to know why you think it would be.

[PhillyRising]

Well first of all, this shouldn't be broken down into "downtowners" and "suburbanites" because even most suburbanites I know aren't anywhere near this extreme with their opinions on the matter. I am referring to only those who are this out there.

To answer your question though, no, I absolutely don't think you can say the same thing about the 'typical urbanite's view of suburbia and I am very curious to know why you think it would be.


I don't think most really have that much of a negative opinion of the suburbs...they may like going out to them for a break from their daily routine but probably wouldn't want to live there because it doesn't suit their needs. The reverse is probably the same for most suburbanites and most are not the evil Escalade Driving..Wal_mart shopping...Applebee's eating monsters they are made out to be on here sometimes. All those 1980's John Hughes's movies didn;t make suburban Chicago look so bad! :haha: (I watched Ferris Bueller last night during my current recovery from a nasty lung infection).

[Via Chicago]

All those 1980's John Hughes's movies didn;t make suburban Chicago look so bad! :haha: (I watched Ferris Bueller last night during my current recovery from a nasty lung infection).

true, but the north shore is sort of an entity unto itself. its suburban, no doubt about it, but the people from that area tend to be much more in touch with urban life it seems. maybe its that difference between old/new money..i dunno.

oh, and i love those john hughes films too :)

[nath05]

I don't know of anyone that's afraid of downtown Minneapolis or St. Paul. People are afraid of some inner city neighborhoods, sometimes with good reason, but downtown is pretty cool with everyone.

I guess it helps that all four sports teams play in one or other of the downtowns so most everyone gets down there at some time or another.

Most suburbanites I know just prefer the ease and convenience and value of the suburbs.:shrug:

[BnaBreaker]

I don't think most really have that much of a negative opinion of the suburbs...they may like going out to them for a break from their daily routine but probably wouldn't want to live there because it doesn't suit their needs. The reverse is probably the same for most suburbanites and most are not the evil Escalade Driving..Wal_mart shopping...Applebee's eating monsters they are made out to be on here sometimes. All those 1980's John Hughes's movies didn;t make suburban Chicago look so bad! :haha: (I watched Ferris Bueller last night during my current recovery from a nasty lung infection).

I tend to agree, except that I think that the opinions of the suburbs of the so-called "extreme" urbanites are far more accurate than that of the "extreme" suburbanite. Then again, i'm probably biased since i'd probably be labelled by most as an 'extremist'. lol

BTW, how much time have you spent in southen suburbia? Go spend time in the south suburbs of Nashville, my home town, and you'll see just how obese/truckin'/applebee/wal-mart/bland they can get! lol ;)

[arbeiter]

People are dimwits: You heard it here first!

[ginsan2]

Suburbia as the eternal present. This is an interesting concept.


But, since we've had 50 years of suburbia, perhaps there is more "history" and depth than one suspects, and perhaps the suburbanites themselves pick up on this?

I live in Dearborn, MI, and it's almost entirely suburban (tiny little downtown, and even that's very suburban). My house is over fifty years old :rolleyes: So is my subdivision, and historic Dearborn has an intense amount of history going on there (and, gasp, it doesn't even all relate to cars.) Suburbia isn't evil, and it's much older than you'd suspect :)

I don't like seeing this "ZOMG they're all evil anti-city people, here's why I'm superior". Seriously? It's a place where you live. And the irony is so enormous I'm surprised it hasn't been spotted yet. Let's draw our attention to the evils attributed to cities and the way those observers have been treated, and the way we've been discussing suburbanites here :)

[BnaBreaker]

I live in Dearborn, MI, and it's almost entirely suburban (tiny little downtown, and even that's very suburban). My house is over fifty years old :rolleyes: So is my subdivision, and historic Dearborn has an intense amount of history going on there (and, gasp, it doesn't even all relate to cars.) Suburbia isn't evil, and it's much older than you'd suspect :)

I don't like seeing this "ZOMG they're all evil anti-city people, here's why I'm superior". Seriously? It's a place where you live. And the irony is so enormous I'm surprised it hasn't been spotted yet. Let's draw our attention to the evils attributed to cities and the way those observers have been treated, and the way we've been discussing suburbanites here :)

You don't get it. At all. Why do people get so offended by those who are equally as offended by outright ignorance and stupidity? Nobody thinks they're "superior" simply because of the structure they've chosen to live in. And if you think that freaking urban development nerds like some of us aren't aware of the fact that many suburbs pre-date the sprawl area, then you haven't been paying attention.

Some people simply have a problem with complete willful ignorance wherever it comes from. You don't need to feel obligated to stick up for these people just because they come from suburbs like you. This isn't the "us vs. them" situation that you and others make it out to be. Why, in your mind, does simply pointing out hypocrisy and stupidity make one 'elitest'?

[holladay]

Most people accept whatever is around them, no matter what culture they're from. It's inevitable that you identify most with what is around you when you grow up. For instance, Italians like crowds of people and for buildings and houses to be close together. Japanese people like clean surfaces and purity inside the home. Americans like big cars, lawns and carpet. In America's case there is a societal rejection of cities. The way to break the mold is to continue to improving the cities we have so that more people will find them attractive again. But most of our cities are in such abysmal shape that it will take a sustained effort over a long period of time before the dominant lifestyle choice is for the city again. I think it's possible but it will require everyone who cares about this to keep working towards that goal.

[PhillyRising]

I tend to agree, except that I think that the opinions of the suburbs of the so-called "extreme" urbanites are far more accurate than that of the "extreme" suburbanite. Then again, i'm probably biased since i'd probably be labelled by most as an 'extremist'. lol

BTW, how much time have you spent in southen suburbia? Go spend time in the south suburbs of Nashville, my home town, and you'll see just how obese/truckin'/applebee/wal-mart/bland they can get! lol ;)

:haha:

My definition of suburb is based on what is here in the western burbs of Philadelphia....even where I live isn't quite as harsh as what some of you describe but it's certainly not a place Jane jacobs would like....

[Marcu]

Can we try to refocus this thread on specific ignorant statements about city centers instead of just trashing and stereotyping suburbanites? As much as I love doing that, it's just not as interesting and tends to be recycled material from previous threads.

[Shasta]

Here's a quick thought... Why would we want people who like Holiday Inns in Rome and are afraid of downtown to actually "find out" about downtowns?

Let's keep the joys of urban living a big secret from them.

I've already seen a shift in Boston's South End where I have lived for 10 years in the shadows of the Back Bay skyscrapers and public housing projects. Once word got out that it was uber convenient and not that scary the floodgates opened. Now, instead of indie coffee shops we have Starbucks. Now, instead of a GLBT bookstore we have Hingham Savings Bank. Now, instead of the Purple Cactus Burrito joint we have a Hammond Residential Real Estate Office. Now, instead of people who like late night bars and joints to get a dinner at midnight we have neighbors who complain of noise and trash. Now, instead of a funky drag club in Bay Village we have a funky drag club in Bay Village that cannot let anyone in the doors after 10 pm because of complaints from the neighbors about "others" who linger outside.

Blah.

Downtowns are WAY more fun when "those" people who would want to clean it up stay out!

[Reverberation]

Yeah I live in the newer suburbs built in the 80's and 90's. The city has grown by alot and now there are highrises popping up. I do in fact pay attention to aesthetics in the suburbs as they have slowly become more urban and thats why I enjoy them. Suburban Houston is peaceful.

Some of you guys downtown may like to brand us as inferior or as sheep but from the eyes of a suburbanite, you sound just as ignorant as I am supposed to be. Get off your high horse and think about it from our view.

[BnaBreaker]

Christ, some people really need to learn how to read before they go off whining like little girls about how 'mean' other people are being to them. I love when people consider it some noble cause to stick up for idiots and defend complete stupidity. Just because people are painfully wrong doesn't mean they deserve your pity. Again, just because you also happen to live in a single-family house or whatever noble cause you think you're defending, doesn't mean that people are referring to you when they go off on "idiot suburbanites".

[Trantor]

GOD I HATE IGNORANT PEOPLE!! any ideas why people have pre-concieved notions about downtowns? its a statistic that DT Phoenix has one of the lowest crime rates in the entire city!


lol, well, you have never been to brazilian downtowns :haha:

on the other hand, in most brazilian cities, OUTSIDE downtown is as dense as INSIDE downtown. so it doesnt make much difference. It just happens that DOWNTOWNS in Brazil are abandoned by corporations which build new highrises in other neighborhoods and development areas, so the old city cores get relegated to very small business, very popular stores, some illegal commerce and this kind of stuff. Really saddening.


Btw Chicago 103, if you like downtowns so much, why the hell havent you checked my Porto Alegre downtown thread???? :hell:
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=129907


:) ;)

[kool maudit]

i am tiring of this over-democratic attitude...whatever people like, they like...one man's castle...nothing is better than anything else...

we have behaviour patterns and those patterns have consequences. this is why cultures rise and fall. to live in a democracy is not to accept everything, it is to advocate what you feel is best and be prepared to defend it when other people feel otherwise.

it is unsophisticated to prefer dean koontz to mary shelley.

it is crude to prefer thomas kinkade to caravaggio.

too high-brow? is the ol' figure of the eurocolonial snob starting to enter your mind? that odd north american amalgam of oscar wilde, goldfinger and falco?

fine.

it's ignorant to prefer the jaguar to spiderman.

some things are better than others, and prewar urbanity - city and suburb - is better than postwar suburbia.

it is aesthetically more varied, it is architecturally more honest and it is more responsible ecologically.

i am not interested in hearing about how nobody can tell you where you should live because it is bullshit. nobody should force you to live anywhere but where you prefer, but we can certainly tell you:

you should not live in postwar suburbia.

it is inferior.

[muppet]

I remember a middle aged tourist on his own on the London nightbus. He must have been caught drinking in town and missed the last tube. The bus was packed with clubbers and tipsy drunks -and he looked absolutely terrified, clutching his bag to his chest. What really riled me was whenever a Black person went past he'd check his pockets, Id never seen anything like it. Some of them even noticed his obvious behaviour but didnt say a word.
I felt like hitting him - its just a fuckin bus, everyone uses it, and these people you so distrust are a damn sight more civilised than youll ever be.

argh...

I live in a largely muslim Bangladeshi area too. Its one of the poorest in London, but very hip and full of the best clubs and bars in the city. I was walking with this out of town girl and she confided to me she was scared, especially when we were in the Bengali market. I told her look at how mixed the crowd is, then told her the only reason this was one of the poorest yet one of the safest areas in the city was precisely because of the Muslim community. She would have preferred it if everyone had been white.

[ginsan2]

You don't get it. At all. Why do people get so offended by those who are equally as offended by outright ignorance and stupidity? Nobody thinks they're "superior" simply because of the structure they've chosen to live in. And if you think that freaking urban development nerds like some of us aren't aware of the fact that many suburbs pre-date the sprawl area, then you haven't been paying attention.

Some people simply have a problem with complete willful ignorance wherever it comes from. You don't need to feel obligated to stick up for these people just because they come from suburbs like you. This isn't the "us vs. them" situation that you and others make it out to be. Why, in your mind, does simply pointing out hypocrisy and stupidity make one 'elitest'?

No, I get it quite well, and I note your extreme defense. "At all"? Was that really necessary? :rolleyes:

Interestingly enough, as I've pointed out before, you even add those self-deprecating modifiers to mitigate your attitudes.

It very much so is "us vs them", because you're drawing a very clear line between yourself and someone else, or rather, between yourself and several other people. So no matter how many responses to me you write, threads like these still foster an enormous amount of hypocrisy and tin-plated delusions of superiority.

[holladay]

I'm getting frankly tired of the moralism running rampant on this forum. It's ok to have values without being an ass about it...

[Master Shake]

then told her the only reason this was one of the poorest yet one of the safest areas in the city was precisely because of the Muslim community. She would have preferred it if everyone had been white.

Congratulations on living in a Muslim neighborhood oh brave one, does this makes you feel morally superior? Or do you just believe Islam to be the one true faith?

Is it true that Muslims have a lower crime rate than whites in England? On what basis to you say this?

Your sanctimoniousness is assured regardless.

[kool maudit]

Congratulations on living in a Muslim neighborhood oh brave one, does this makes you feel morally superior? Or do you just believe Islam to be the one true faith?

Is it true that Muslims have a lower crime rate than whites in England? On what basis to you say this?

Your sanctimoniousness is assured regardless.



what an odd response. as an aside, it's well known that the large cities of the islamic world have very low crime rates. i might find the type of societal values and legal system that makes this so overly restrictive, but that's sort of more my issue.

[muppet]

Congratulations on living in a Muslim neighborhood oh brave one, does this makes you feel morally superior? Or do you just believe Islam to be the one true faith?

Is it true that Muslims have a lower crime rate than whites in England? On what basis to you say this?

Your sanctimoniousness is assured regardless.


How old are you?
Youve completely missed the point.

the point being the people she was scared of were the ones she shouldnt be, regardless of whatever faith or community they represented. Geddit??

Your viewpoint that this boils down to merely some kind of measuring of how one culture is superior to another is a strange response, but telling.
-Tell me Master Shake, is it the fact they were Muslim that so offended you? Or the fact the girl was white?

Perhaps you may point your great mirror of assured sanctimoniousness at yourself and see what you see.


And since you ask (which is utterly irrelevant anyway), they do have lower crime rates than whites, despite being the lowest denominated underclass in the country. I stress again this was never about comparing one community with the next, your bigotry that it was, and throwing accusations around, not mention your offensive underlying outlook towards muslims borders on trolling mate. I hope for your sake you stop so categorising people, and me.

[Master Shake]

How old are you?
Youve completely missed the point.

the point being the people she was scared of were the ones she shouldnt be, regardless of whatever faith or community they represented. Geddit??

Your viewpoint that this boils down to merely some kind of measuring of how one culture is superior to another is a strange response, but telling.
-Tell me Master Shake, is it the fact they were Muslim that so offended you? Or the fact the girl was white?

Perhaps you may point your great mirror of assured sanctimoniousness at yourself and see what you see.


And since you ask (which is utterly irrelevant anyway), they do have lower crime rates than whites, despite being the lowest denominated underclass in the country. I stress again this was never about comparing one community with the next, your bigotry that it was, and throwing accusations around, not mention your offensive underlying outlook towards muslims borders on trolling mate. I hope for your sake you stop so categorising people, and me.

You stated the following:

then told her the ONLY REASON this was one of the poorest yet one of the safest areas in the city was PRECISELY because of the Muslim community.

No, you specifically claimed that the only reason a neighborhood is the safest in city was precisely because of the Muslim community.

Clearly, you think that it does matter.

You measured one community against another by saying that the only reason why a neighborhood was safe was because its muslim. I never made this comparison. I disagreed with your position, and questioned how you know that muslims have a lower crime rate in England than other ethnic groups.

I am curious to see the statistics. I am not saying its not true just asking for facts before I accept your premise. I live in poor immigrant area of New York, and if I stated that the only reason why it has a low crime rate is precisely because its a Christian neighborhood, I think most readers would laugh at the premise and certainly question it factually.

I was not trolling and said nothing whatsoever negative or bigoted towards muslims. Stop being so thin skinned.

I do think that many posts on this subject matter are rather smug and self-agrandizing.

[Crawford]

Master Shake, the fact that it is an observant Muslim neighborhood DOES matter. I think most people would be shocked to hear that the streets of Beirut are much safer than most American or even European cities. The only areas with street crime are the Christian neighborhoods (though they are low crime by Western standards). Yes, I have visited.

There is very little street crime in the Islamic world.

[Master Shake]

I am very confused, Muppet first claimed Islam was the only reason for low crime and when I questioned him, he said that religion has no relevance.

I know this is confusing, but we were discussing muslim neighborhoods in England not Beruit, unless its now globally true that the religion of peace prevents crime everywhere. Again, this may be true, but I rather rely upon statistics over anectdotes.

[Lecom]

Thanks for the good laugh.

It's the fact that these people are fully serious is scary.

[slide_rule]

racism and classism have contributed greatly to the slash n' burn suburban development patterns. it's not just about poor areas either.

i've even heard genuinely fearful remarks about wealthy minority-majority areas. apparently coral gables, fl and san marino, ca are full of discontented minorities!

[muppet]

jesus DOES NO ONE GEDDIT???

The POINT was that the girl was scared of the muslims. The POINT was that she shouldnt be scared of this specific muslim community in east London.

If the girl went to Slough (which is mostly South Asian) and was scared of the new community of Christian Poles there, and I pointed out that actually this minority Christian community, though one of the poorest, had actually one of the lowest crime rates in the city, thus inferring she shouldnt be scared of them, would we even have this problem? Would I even be writing this defence?

IN OTHER WORDS THE FACT THEY WERE MUSLIM IS A DETAIL, NOT THE SUBJECT, that the people in question were Muslim is by default. They could have been Black or Chinese or gay or Polish depending on which area of the city id been in.


To quote myself 'precisely because of the Muslim community' does not equate with 'precisely because they are muslim'. The word 'muslim' in this context is used descriptive - Geddit.

(- And anyway what the hell is so offensive even if it was true that the people had lower crime rates inferred because of an Islamic upbringing???)

Now my question is - is this big palava and heinous offence caused all round just because they were muslim or what? Would it have been easier all round if the community wasn't - will I know next time to just insert 'Bangladeshi' community rather than 'muslim' community when referring to them?

[Master Shake]

Yes, we get it. Relax.

Focus on the main topic of discussion and we can move on.

[muppet]

Thankyou

[Owlhorn]

I thought this thread was referring to specific people and comments, not suburia or suburbanites as a whole.

[DenverCrow]

People scared of downtown Denver is hilarious. I have a friend over 6'5" who "avoids" downtown for fear of being beat up. Now, Denver has a pretty good crime rate, but still, it's so ridiculous to think one trip downtown will lead to you getting beat up.

[skylife]

Suburbia is what's idealized in reality, but cities are what's idealized in movies, TV, commercials, etc. So many movies and TV shows have fabulous urban settings and considering that's the fantasy machine, I don't understand how there can be so much antipathy to cities. It's so schizophrenic.

[pwright1]

I also laugh at people who are afraid of dt Seattle. But then again I hear seattleites say they would never go in suburban places at night like Seatac Mall, South Center Mall, Federal Way, Burien, Puyallup, Auburn, Kent or Renton.

[holladay]

Suburbia is what's idealized in reality, but cities are what's idealized in movies, TV, commercials, etc. So many movies and TV shows have fabulous urban settings and considering that's the fantasy machine, I don't understand how there can be so much antipathy to cities. It's so schizophrenic.

This is SOOOO true... Really makes you wonder

[volguus zildrohar]

It would be pretty funny if anyone says that around here considering Center City is one of the safest places in all of Philadelphia.

You'd be surprised at some of the comments I overhear from folks on the street or even in the store. The homeless people and the alley streets seem to raise the most concern for Subdivision Sandra and Driveway Dave. Some believe truly that everything beyond CC is a warzone and it seems some think that much of Center City itself is simply the world's prettiest DMZ.

[Monetto]

Well, most torontonians (downtown, inner city, suburbs) believe St. Jamestown is a ghetto, but my sister lives there and its just fine. Cheap and convenient, especially for a student.

Regarding ignorance, my parents hate going downtown because they hate driving through the traffic. Walking rather than driving does not really seem to apply as a possibility.

[shovel_ready]

Subdivision Sandra and Driveway Dave

:haha: :haha: :haha:

[Chicago103]

I don't think most really have that much of a negative opinion of the suburbs...they may like going out to them for a break from their daily routine but probably wouldn't want to live there because it doesn't suit their needs. The reverse is probably the same for most suburbanites and most are not the evil Escalade Driving..Wal_mart shopping...Applebee's eating monsters they are made out to be on here sometimes. All those 1980's John Hughes's movies didn;t make suburban Chicago look so bad! :haha: (I watched Ferris Bueller last night during my current recovery from a nasty lung infection).

Those movies take place in inner suburbs where alot of people still work downtown and have a connection with the city, these people tend to have actual frequent experience with downtown and thus dont have ignorant views that people out in the exurbs tend to have. See my thread on "old suburbs vs. exurbs" to understand what I mean by their being a cultural divide even between suburbs.

[miketoronto]

Talk about Ignorance of downtown. I just had a customer this evening at work, who I had to map out a route for into Toronto via public transit. She was coming from a suburban area of Hamilton called Stoney Creek.

Anyway she insisted on taking two local city buses out of her way into Burlington to catch the train to Toronto there, instead of taking like one bus right into downtown Hamilton and catching the train to Toronto there.

The reason? Downtown Hamilton is to scary and dangerous and full of drug dealers.

I assured her that I would not advise people to go to a certain station if it was scary and dangerous, and I also told her I just spent a whole day in Hamilton of many, including in the evening, and it was not scary downtown and not full of drug dealers.

She was even going on about how freaked she would be to have to ride the local city bus through inner Hamilton, because all the riders will be drug addicts and lowlifes if she has to ride through Hamilton into downtown Hamilton.

But she would not hear it. So she is going to add travel time and go out of her way to avoid a downtown that she thinks is full of drug dealers.
The only thing the downtown Hamilton train station is going to be infested with at the time she is travelling, is men in suites going to work in downtown Toronto :)

[waterloowarrior]

ha, my roommate visited Hamilton before his co-op term there - on his first ever downtown Hamilton bus ride, he was asked if he wanted to buy some weed

[Cambridgite]

Talk about Ignorance of downtown. I just had a customer this evening at work, who I had to map out a route for into Toronto via public transit. She was coming from a suburban area of Hamilton called Stoney Creek.

Anyway she insisted on taking two local city buses out of her way into Burlington to catch the train to Toronto there, instead of taking like one bus right into downtown Hamilton and catching the train to Toronto there.

The reason? Downtown Hamilton is to scary and dangerous and full of drug dealers.

I assured her that I would not advise people to go to a certain station if it was scary and dangerous, and I also told her I just spent a whole day in Hamilton of many, including in the evening, and it was not scary downtown and not full of drug dealers.

She was even going on about how freaked she would be to have to ride the local city bus through inner Hamilton, because all the riders will be drug addicts and lowlifes if she has to ride through Hamilton into downtown Hamilton.

But she would not hear it. So she is going to add travel time and go out of her way to avoid a downtown that she thinks is full of drug dealers.
The only thing the downtown Hamilton train station is going to be infested with at the time she is travelling, is men in suites going to work in downtown Toronto :)

Hahahaha, she really did that?! That's funny. Hamilton's inner city may be sketchy compared to other major cities in Canada, but it's still CANADA! That is too funny. It kind of reminds me how people at U of W always talk smack about downtown K-town (Kitchener). People think you're going to get mugged or hit by a stray bullet if you go down there. I've been down there several times and it's not that bad. The worst thing that can happen to you is a panhandler will ask you for change. And guess what....he was probably pushed out by gentrification. Storefronts are well over 90% occupied and getting even better! Sometimes it's actually really busy. But no, the only safe place to be is in the outermost suburbs where they have lawns and all the houses are identical to each other. That is just soooo stylish. Anything else is a slum.:koko:
Actually, I've been taking some pictures and I'm going to create a thread exposing people to what the area really looks like, seeing as though people are convinced that it's not even a safe place to check out.
I'm assuming WaterlooWarrior probably knows exactly the kind of comments I'm talking about too.

[Chicago103]

Some people are so ignorant and stupid they cant even think straight, they are just slaves to their mindset. When they turn around and call people like me "elitist" for "telling them how to think" or whatever its almost like members of a cult scared of the rest of society out to "corrupt them", so its almost like a mass cult mentality, in this case one of mass hysteria. If one could prove that more cool-aide was drunken in the exurbs then one could literally say "they have drunken the cool-aide". Psychologists should do studies on the psychology of the suburban mentality. Its hard for me to get into the heads of some of these people.

[austin356]

Chicago103, your OP contained beliefs of people that were so absurd I was laughing my ass off.

Some people spew crap that is so ignorant it is funny.

[Policy Wonk]

Suburbia is what's idealized in reality, but cities are what's idealized in movies, TV, commercials, etc. So many movies and TV shows have fabulous urban settings and considering that's the fantasy machine, I don't understand how there can be so much antipathy to cities. It's so schizophrenic.

Because that perfect L.A. soundstage three story new york brownstone on a photoshop perfect establishing shot street is just a little bit out of reach for most people?

[Chicago103]

Some people spew crap that is so ignorant it is funny.

Yeah, I agree, like some people's opinions of downtowns.

Its funny that you criticize my beliefs but somehow the beliefs of people scared of downtown are all about "freedom and the American way" to you.

Neocons like to "call evil for what it is" or so they say well I call stupidity, ignorance and paranoia for what it is.

[waterloowarrior]

H
Actually, I've been taking some pictures and I'm going to create a thread exposing people to what the area really looks like, seeing as though people are convinced that it's not even a safe place to check out.
I'm assuming WaterlooWarrior probably knows exactly the kind of comments I'm talking about too.

haha yeah, I know exactly what you mean! I have made a few cracks about DT Kitchener myself ;) but in reality it keeps improving and attracting more and more people!

[JManc]

the masses' perception of downtown and urban areas are rather dated and are holdovers from an era where cities were neglected and blighted becuase white flight. you'd be surprised how many upstate NY'ers still think NYC is still the cesspool it was in the 70's and 80's.

[miketoronto]

People will always have an ignorance for some place.

This is not about downtown, but I was talking with my co-worker the other day about real estate. She lives in an outter suburb now, but grew up in Scarborough where I live.
Anyway she was going on about how nice Scarborough use to be and how now you can't even walk outside at night without worrying about getting mugged.

Anyway I did not tell her off, but I made it clear that Scarborough is no crime infested wasteland like she made it sound, and how it is full of very nice areas that people walk around in at all hours.

But she has this preception for some odd reason, eventhough the area she grew up in, is still very well kept and not crime infested at all.

[Mr Roboto]

As a general thing, I think perceptions of downtown are clearly linked to Hollywoods depictions- Not that one influences the other - its more that Hollywood reflects the general populaces perception of cities. Today, its more rare that we have the gritty crime story dramas etc., that were so prevalent in the 70's and 80's. Dirty Harry, Fort Apache the Bronx, Taxi Driver, and even in the 90's w/ King of NY, New Jack City, Boyz in the hood etc.- make the city look rough as hell.

Nowadays, urban stories are mostly love stories it seems. W/ the background shots etc., I think the city is romanticized much more often than it used to be - which reflects the ongoing gentrification and revival of our inner cities. Anyway, many suburban kids growing up see that and are probably being somewhat influenced to think the city is a 'cool' place or some shit, at least more so than in the 80's w/ movies like Adventures in babysitting (which is funny in how the antagonist is basically "the city").

[miketoronto]

I think the Hollywood thing is a big factor in people's views.

This may sound weird, but I remember when I was small and watching Full House. One of the episodes had them riding the SF subway(like there is one) to help the enviroment. And I remember how they showed the subway, looking all dirty, full of graffiti, and full of drunk low lifeish people.

Its no wonder people have the view of transit being second class, because in shows its always shown as this graffiti covered, dirty, dark place.

[LordMandeep]

i actually was surprised at the variety of people on the subway.

you'd be surprised how many upstate NY'ers still think NYC is still the cesspool it was in the 70's and 80's


Mostly everyone still thinks that has not gone there....

[Front_Range_Guy]

People scared of downtown Denver is hilarious. I have a friend over 6'5" who "avoids" downtown for fear of being beat up. Now, Denver has a pretty good crime rate, but still, it's so ridiculous to think one trip downtown will lead to you getting beat up.

My friend lives in Aurora. Whenever I go to visit him I drag him downtown, because why the hell would I go to Denver and not go downtown? Anyway... last time I took him downtown it was after dark and he was nervous and said something to the effect of "Mike would not approve of me being downtown at night." Mike is his boyfriend. I'm like... "Uh... yeah? Okay." Yes it was after dark and yes it was pretty desolate because the weather was cold, but we were on a heavily patroled pedestrian mall. Nobody was gonna f*ck with us.

[skylife]

Because that perfect L.A. soundstage three story new york brownstone on a photoshop perfect establishing shot street is just a little bit out of reach for most people?

How does that explain the irrational fear of cities that many people have?

[Chicago103]

My friend lives in Aurora. Whenever I go to visit him I drag him downtown, because why the hell would I go to Denver and not go downtown? Anyway... last time I took him downtown it was after dark and he was nervous and said something to the effect of "Mike would not approve of me being downtown at night." Mike is is boyfriend. I'm like... "Uh... yeah? Okay." Yes it was after dark and yes it was pretty desolate because the weather was cold, but we were on a heavily patroled pedestrian mall. Nobody was gonna f*ck with us.

Ive said it many times before but I simply cant comprehend living in a large metropolitan area and not having anything to do with downtown. Its oftentimes the heart of the region, if nothing else its the cultural heart of it, when the world thinks of "insert city name" it thinks of icons that are often downtown, its the essence of the place you call home. How you can turn your back on what gives your region its identity and simply spend all your time in a place that is basically the same as any other place (stereotypical suburbia) is beyond me. Well its simple, place has little meaning to most people, their lives are about other things, often inward things that just have to do with their own lives and place to them is "just there", a means to an end and not a part of your identity as a person. Thats the opposite of me, basically my entire life revolves around Chicago, my professsional, personal and hobbies basically all have to do with this city and its culture.

[Front_Range_Guy]

Ive said it many times before but I simply cant comprehend living in a large metropolitan area and not having anything to do with downtown. Its oftentimes the heart of the region, if nothing else its the cultural heart of it, when the world thinks of "insert city name" it thinks of icons that are often downtown, its the essence of the place you call home. How you can turn your back on what gives your region its identity and simply spend all your time in a place that is basically the same as any other place (stereotypical suburbia) is beyond me. Well its simple, place has little meaning to most people, their lives are about other things, often inward things that just have to do with their own lives and place to them is "just there", a means to an end and not a part of your identity as a person. Thats the opposite of me, basically my entire life revolves around Chicago, my professsional, personal and hobbies basically all have to do with this city and its culture.

Right. He goes downtown. From what I can tell his doctor is in Downtown Denver, and he likes to shop at Sakura Square, get Gelato at a place called Gelazzi, and of course the clubs are downtown. He just doesn't feel safe going downtown at night. Which is off base, because with the exception of a few street's maybe, Downtown Denver is not a dangerous place at night... or at any time.

As for building your identity around your city. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. If I were to move to a larger city I probably would. That's just the point though, I've built my identity around other things. Namely my career and my family, that keep me here in this smaller city.

[Chicago103]

As for building your identity around your city. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. If I were to move to a larger city I probably would. That's just the point though, I've built my identity around other things. Namely my career and my family, that keep me here in this smaller city.

Well I've been to Colorado Springs and things I have heard about its political climate aside its a beautifull place with gorgeous scenery. You dont have to live in a city as large as Chicago to appreciate place, you can do it in smaller cities or even small towns if they are quaint, usually that means a strong downtown. In my experience whether you are talking about a small town, a small or medium sized city or a mega city the key to an identity is a strong core. I suppose exceptions would be like LA that in spite of the downtown not being the main source of its identity has a strong sense of place. Strong traditional neighborhoods is another very important element. Colorado Springs does have the mountains but the places with the strongest identity would be the older sections of town. Thats a bit off topic but it does have to do tangetally with the subject matter. Its the fundamental question of why do people now fear the very areas that gave where they live its history, culture and identity? Maybe its because so many people move around so much and are so caught up in the modern rat race to stop and smell the roses.

I dislike places that lack an identity and thats probably why I hated living downstate in Decatur, IL for 12 years, when I thought in my head "what does it mean to live in Decatur, what do people do here?" The answer sadly was with the exception of one downtown summer festival was basically go to Wal-Mart, go to the Mall and eating out at places like Applebees. Maybe its because I have an intellectual and artistic mind but it seems most people just dont ponder the meaning of the place where they live.

[NewYorkYankee]

Some people just aren't going to get it. Get over it, they're not the type of people you'd want living down there anyway.

[crooked rain]

I am surprised it took 72 posts before someone mentioned Applebee's.

[Front_Range_Guy]

Well I've been to Colorado Springs and things I have heard about its political climate aside its a beautifull place with gorgeous scenery. You dont have to live in a city as large as Chicago to appreciate place, you can do it in smaller cities or even small towns if they are quaint, usually that means a strong downtown. In my experience whether you are talking about a small town, a small or medium sized city or a mega city the key to an identity is a strong core. I suppose exceptions would be like LA that in spite of the downtown not being the main source of its identity has a strong sense of place. Strong traditional neighborhoods is another very important element. Colorado Springs does have the mountains but the places with the strongest identity would be the older sections of town. Thats a bit off topic but it does have to do tangetally with the subject matter. Its the fundamental question of why do people now fear the very areas that gave where they live its history, culture and identity? Maybe its because so many people move around so much and are so caught up in the modern rat race to stop and smell the roses.

I dislike places that lack an identity and thats probably why I hated living downstate in Decatur, IL for 12 years, when I thought in my head "what does it mean to live in Decatur, what do people do here?" The answer sadly was with the exception of one downtown summer festival was basically go to Wal-Mart, go to the Mall and eating out at places like Applebees. Maybe its because I have an intellectual and artistic mind but it seems most people just dont ponder the meaning of the place where they live.


Right. I'm afraid Colorado Springs has such a warped sense of self. There is a creative class here, centered particularly on the west side and to a lesser extent downtown. Part of my problem is, I live in the suburbs. I have no sense of place here. It's just a box I come to sleep in. I admit, I do enjoy gardening in the yard. If I lived downtown, I know I'd be more involved in the community and local culture. Even then it's hard when you've got a moderately loud chorus of voices from the inside telling you your irrelevent and a screaming mob from the outside telling you you are irrelevent. It's... so not helpful. I think it's fair to say, and I could be wrong... I've never been there... but I would imagine that when you live in Downtown Chicago, you know exactly who you are, what you stand for, and where you are going. When you live in (or in my case, spend a lot of time in) Downtown Colorado Springs... you know you are part of a counter-culture when compared to the larger community. You know you are there because you don't want to be one of "them." There are creative people downtown... there is culture downtown... but it's constantly over shadowed by people from the suburban parts of the city routing for you to fail and people from the outside questioning why you even bother and urging you to give up. Which just makes me want to stay and fight harder and prove everyone wrong. Even if it's impossible. LOL.

I know what you're talking about... but I'm afraid in the last six months or so I've just kinda... given up maybe?

[Joey D]

Being from a high-crime small city around much larger cities, everyone from my hometown area feels that the bigger the city, the worse the city, which is almost the complete opposite.

And because our downtown is riddled with crackheads as everything closes at 7 P.M., they believe that the downtowns of bigger areas also vacate, and the zombies come out to eat you.

However, in bigger cities, the risk of crime, especially downtown, is alleviated because there are more people, more eyes around, more cops, etc. I have always thought Center City Philadelphia was one of the safer parts of the city, but some people equate high crime in a city to be concentrated and the worst in the city center, which is really a very wrong concept given the amount of businesses, people, cops, and surveillance.

I have to say, though, I have a HUGE FEAR OF DOWNTOWN. The PRICES! I cry every time I shell out 8 dollars for fast food. :(

[Cambridgite]

Being from a high-crime small city around much larger cities, everyone from my hometown area feels that the bigger the city, the worse the city, which is almost the complete opposite.

And because our downtown is riddled with crackheads as everything closes at 7 P.M., they believe that the downtowns of bigger areas also vacate, and the zombies come out to eat you.

However, in bigger cities, the risk of crime, especially downtown, is alleviated because there are more people, more eyes around, more cops, etc. I have always thought Center City Philadelphia was one of the safer parts of the city, but some people equate high crime in a city to be concentrated and the worst in the city center, which is really a very wrong concept given the amount of businesses, people, cops, and surveillance.

I have to say, though, I have a HUGE FEAR OF DOWNTOWN. The PRICES! I cry every time I shell out 8 dollars for fast food. :(

Haha yeah! I hear what you're saying. Where I live, everyone says "Oh, big bad Toronto. It's so dangerous!" Of course, Yonge street is still bustling with activity at midnight. I feel much more comfortable there than in downtown Kitchener at night, where the only people around at that time are homeless people who have nowhere else to go. Most of the businesses are closed and the people who live there are cacooning. Hopefully all the residential development going on down there will entice businesses to stay open later, but it will take some time. At least it's not full of vacant storefronts anymore. There have been over a thousand new housing units built in the inner city in the past 10 years, and almost 1000 more will be ready within the next few years. Things are looking good, but for now, I still feel much safer in big, bad downtown TO. Oh god, the big city....I might get shot...:haha:

[sprtsluvr8]

Think about it...people are worried about the homeless doing - what? Homeless people don't very often have guns or access to guns...that's not to say they never are armed, but I would think that they are less likely to have one than the general population. :) It seems to me that downtowns got pinned with the stigma of poverty and public housing a couple of decades ago, and with the migration to the suburbs of almost everyone who could afford to move...downtown was left with the struggling, the poor, and the homeless. At least that's what many people pictured downtown to be, which in itself makes for a volatile envrionment and a seemingly unfriendly one to an outsider or suburbanite.

Many people still imagine downtowns to be unfriendly and dangerous because of that old, outdated stigma. Just go take a little read-thru on 'shity-data.com' - the things people say about downtowns in that forum are ridiculous. It's funny to read for a minute, but eventually it just makes me angry that citizens of a city (or its suburbs) will advise a future resident to "stay away from downtown" or "make sure you're heading back out by 6:00 p.m." People are such babies...afraid of their own shadow.

[Cambridgite]

Think about it...people are worried about the homeless doing - what? Homeless people don't very often have guns or access to guns...that's not to say they never are armed, but I would think that they are less likely to have one than the general population. :) It seems to me that downtowns got pinned with the stigma of poverty and public housing a couple of decades ago, and with the migration to the suburbs of almost everyone who could afford to move...downtown was left with the struggling, the poor, and the homeless. At least that's what many people pictured downtown to be, which in itself makes for a volatile envrionment and a seemingly unfriendly one to an outsider or suburbanite.

Many people still imagine downtowns to be unfriendly and dangerous because of that old, outdated stigma. Just go take a little read-thru on 'shity-data.com' - the things people say about downtowns in that forum are ridiculous. It's funny to read for a minute, but eventually it just makes me angry that citizens of a city (or its suburbs) will advise a future resident to "stay away from downtown" or "make sure you're heading back out by 6:00 p.m." People are such babies...afraid of their own shadow.

Haha yeah, so true. It's really not that scary down there. But you have to admit, a downtown that's virtually empty is not as cozy as one that's bustling with life throughout the night hours.

[combusean]

I do have one co-worker actually who is from a small town and moved into Toronto for uni and now for work. Anyway she is funny, because she does get freaked out, and when she was on the late evening shift, she use to complain about having to walk the 5min from our office to the subway station. She would make it out to be this big deal how she is so freaked of muggers. Yet I could not it through her head that she was walking down streets with tons of people walking around even at that hour, and that she was in the CBD, which is very very safe for the most part.

But she would just freak. It was kinda funny, but got annoying after a while.

You know, it's ironic because the people that are the most panicky nitwits that walk like they don't have their wits about them seem more likely to be a target than those who clearly have their head together. She stays at work late one night and the same bloke that notices her acting batty during the day is going to have himself a nice dinner on her dime.

[Cambridgite]

http://www.therecord.com/links/links_060908101716.html
:previous: Here's an article for you guys. It's a scary place until you actually go down there and experience it for yourself.