Help I am cramped in the suburbs.

[miketoronto]

I had to go out to the outter suburbs of Toronto today for something. Anyway I took some pics from the express bus while it was on the highway of the subdivisons in the outter burbs. Following are three pics.

Lets hear your views on the density of our new suburbs. This is not just a Toronto thing. Suburbs in many cities have gone much more dense in the last decade, yet they still don't offer walkble commercial strips close to these homes. Transit use is low with buses often only running every 15-30min.

So lets hear your views on this. Considering these homes do not offer the benifts of inner city living, and do not offer the green spaces that the old suburbs do with more farther apart housing. Do you think these areas could become the next have been areas of the metro regions and even turn into ghetto's?

These areas I find do not do density in the right way. The inner city areas with dense housing seems more well designed, and even more lush. People say "give time for the trees to grow". But if you walk through these hoods, very few trees are actually there.

http://mywebpage.netscape.com/miketorontoscar/cramped1.JPG

http://mywebpage.netscape.com/miketorontoscar/cramped2.JPG

http://mywebpage.netscape.com/miketorontoscar/cramped3.JPG

[ardecila]

That's fascinating, and a totally alien concept around here. The thing is, how are the streets laid out? If a connective street grid is in place around the houses, then retail will come eventually, since the demand and capability is there to support it.

Since people CAN walk to stores and parks, they will want stores and parks to walk to. In most low-density suburbs, people can't walk anywhere, so why should anybody build retail and parks that are integrated? That would require an investment on the part of the retail developer or the city. If the sidewalks and street layout is already in place, then the retailers will see opportunity.

Also, what's the big grass field in the foreground? That could be developed as retail fronting onto the subdivision streets.

[LordMandeep]

i think thats the land beside a highway...

[Ronin]

Perhaps there is some type of shopping and entertainment plaza linked with this community? Many places like that are sprouting up, but also built with a supermarket, restaurants, etc. within the community itself.

[LordMandeep]

no they are built right on the two or three streets that lead to the outside world...

[crisp444]

Taking up less land through building denser housing is more environmentally friendly than eating up land to build mini-mansions with their own 1/2 acre lot. By the way, bus service to downtown Toronto every 15-30 minutes is EXCELLENT... what is your point, and why are you complaining? Would you rather have dense development like that or pseudo-rural subdivisions with NO BUS SERVICE AT ALL located 40 km from the city center like in much of suburban Atlanta?

[JMGarcia]

They're just "row houses" for the automobile age.

I doubt if retail will ever develop. Street level is probably all garage space and I doubt if zoning would allow it in any case.

[miketoronto]

They're just "row houses" for the automobile age.

I doubt if retail will ever develop. Street level is probably all garage space and I doubt if zoning would allow it in any case.

That is so true. These homes hardly have front lawns. Thats why I think these areas could become have been areas. Atleast the inner city homes may be close together, but they have lawns and green lush streetscapes.

These outter suburban homes have nothing for concrete driveways, and very very little greenery. Couple that with very little walkability, etc.

[Coriander]

Lets hear your views on the density of our new suburbs. This is not just a Toronto thing. Suburbs in many cities have gone much more dense in the last decade, yet they still don't offer walkble commercial strips close to these homes. Transit use is low with buses often only running every 15-30min.


How dense is this? Do you have any numbers? The land in the foreground leads me to believe the area as a whole may not be too dense. If these developments were dense enough and large enough, I'd like to believe more urban amenities would naturally work there way into the area's fabric.

[LordMandeep]

they are dense, then are surrounded by empty areas. Thats the problem with the areas, they are built like isolated pockets, however they are nothing like gated coumunties...

I remember reading a thread with those stats and i cant find it but it said Toronto was the 2nd most dense metro area after La.

[nec209]

Most of the new suburbs the homes have small lots and less green do to the high demand for homes and those homes are not cheap 400,000 to 500,000 in Toronto suburbs .If they build in the old day the Toronto suburbs would be over 900.000 for a home and homes almost at Barrie that be one big city sprawl.But what they like to do is build detached homes,semi detached homes and townhouses.The price of homes are still going up and in Brampton there was talk of capping of growth do to city hall can't keep up with growth .In 2001 Brampton population 325,000 and in 2006 433,000..

Well they lack apartments:( Well stores and factories are pulled back from the street and more green and homes almost at the street and touching.In the old suburbs of Toronto it was stores and factories less green almost at the street .But the old suburbs the homes more green and bigger lots .

They seem to be more into box stores or power centers now.

[brickell]

Miami suburbs have looked this way for years. I've noticed very little commercial and retail development and the main reason in my opinion is that you already have a car. These developments while dense, tend to be closed off to the rest of the world and don't have the population or traffic to attract quality places. Since most people have to have cars anyway, it's not a big deal for them to drive an extra 5 minutes to the big strip mall with many more options.

This is part of the donut ring that's developing around cities. Dense downtowns followed by relatively sparse inner suburbs with big yards and industrial spaces followed by dense exurban development further out.

[MolsonExport]

Pretty selective photos. Granted, these are horrid (next to the highway), but most outer suburb construction is not so awful as that, albeit banal.

[shappy]

taking the GO train from say Ajax west to Toronto Union, one would see dozens of these types of developments. I'd say it's about a 50/50 split between garages out front and out back. Once you start getting a bit deeper into Scarborough, these types of developments are very much integrated... it's out where there was nothing before that they look isolated like these photos show.

Mike, where were these photos taken?


If a connective street grid is in place around the houses, then retail will come eventually, since the demand and capability is there to support it.
I think that's the strength of these types of new developments... they have potential.

[Attrill]

There are a lot of developments like that around Chicago as well. While it is great to see the density I don't think any of the ones I've seen will lead to any sort of lifestyle change for anyone living in one. A couple of the main reasons have already been mentioned:

1 - People already have cars and will use them out of habit
2 - Zoning, any retail development will be a mall or shopping center

Another reason is street layout. This is just East of Toronto (I think this is around the area being discussed).

http://www.siyeh.com/onlinepics/toronto1.jpg

This street layout is typical of US suburbia as well. It makes it difficult to walk anywhere without feeling like you're going in circles.

[J. Will]

It is ironic that houses built in the suburbs today have smaller yards than the inner-city. Usually they are so close that you can literally stand between them and touch both houses (if they're not already attached). I don't have a problem with that though. Yards are wasteful for the most part.

The good thing is that, at least from what I've seen, all the new subdivisions have a gridded layout, with no cul-de-sacs or curving streets.

[LordMandeep]

They mix it with grid street, curved street then a few cul-de-sacs here. Thats how place is made...

[niwell]

The good thing is that, at least from what I've seen, all the new subdivisions have a gridded layout, with no cul-de-sacs or curving streets.

Indeed. While the grid layout might not be doing much now, it should allow these areas to adapt to future change a bit better. There seems to be a growing number of rear garages in Toronto suburbs as well. In Ottawa, we have very few laneways, but new houses can't have the garage protrude more than a specified amount beyond the front door, so as not to dominate the streetscape.

This seems pretty typical of what is going up in suburban Toronto now: http://maps.google.ca/?ie=UTF8&om=1&z=16&ll=43.893192,-79.312577&spn=0.007438,0.014591&t=h

There is still a lack of connectivity, as only collector roads connect to the main thoroughfares, but this could easily be changed in the future. There is clearly pedestrian access though.

[SpongeG]

vancouver's suburbs seem to plan to have retail components or they pop up close by at the same time - i am thinking of langley and cloverdale mainly where housing is going up fast and furious but also going up are grocery stores, cafes etc. to serve the new nieghbourhoods

[bricky]

I never understood the attraction of dense suburbs. They have neither the excitement of cities, nor the personal space of more spread-out suburbs. Why would anyone want to live there? Because the houses are cheaper than those on larger plots of land?

[SpongeG]

a lot has to do with schools and the school zone and taxes

if you ever watch house hunters on hgtv often you here them mention they chose this particular house because of the school

[MonkeyRonin]

I never understood the attraction of dense suburbs. They have neither the excitement of cities, nor the personal space of more spread-out suburbs. Why would anyone want to live there? Because the houses are cheaper than those on larger plots of land?

The houses are still 2,000-3,000 sqft. (if not more), and are quite cheap, so unless you really need a giant yard, these places do offer the space that suburbanities so crave.

a lot has to do with schools and the school zone and taxes

Residential taxes in suburban Toronto are higher than those in the city, and schools aren't any better either. (in fact, I remember hearing something that students in inner-city schools outperform those in the 905)

[LordMandeep]

its just because their new...

[Attrill]

Indeed. While the grid layout might not be doing much now, it should allow these areas to adapt to future change a bit better. There seems to be a growing number of rear garages in Toronto suburbs as well. In Ottawa, we have very few laneways, but new houses can't have the garage protrude more than a specified amount beyond the front door, so as not to dominate the streetscape.

This seems pretty typical of what is going up in suburban Toronto now: http://maps.google.ca/?ie=UTF8&om=1&z=16&ll=43.893192,-79.312577&spn=0.007438,0.014591&t=h

There is still a lack of connectivity, as only collector roads connect to the main thoroughfares, but this could easily be changed in the future. There is clearly pedestrian access though.

It's good to hear that new construction is being built in grid patterns. Too much of the new suburban construction around Chicago, Indy, and Lexington KY that I've seen are full of cul-de-sacs and isolated subdivisions that loop in on themselves. There is no way that type of layout can support a walkable lifestyle.

[nec209]

It's good to hear that new construction is being built in grid patterns. Too much of the new suburban construction around Chicago, Indy, and Lexington KY that I've seen are full of cul-de-sacs and isolated subdivisions that loop in on themselves. There is no way that type of layout can support a walkable lifestyle.

It is fashion the grid patterns are old that is why they don't use it.Well the new non-grid patterns are cool and hot.After some years and enough complaints they will move back to the grid patterns.

Look at clothing fashion they always bring back the old fashion .And people love change all the reason why store-fronts and grid patterns are ghetto is they are old not because they are ghetto .After years of box stores and non-grid patterns they will look ghetto .


I never understood the attraction of dense suburbs. They have neither the excitement of cities, nor the personal space of more spread-out suburbs. Why would anyone want to live there? Because the houses are cheaper than those on larger plots of land?

I don't think you unserstand the housing demad here.

Here are some pictures from the Brampton Guardian.
http://adserver1.harvestadsdepot.com/mlbraguard/ss/061337/

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/3752/01rq6.jpg

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/2521/02oy5.jpg

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/8486/03fe5.jpg

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/1817/04xq4.jpg

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/4438/05eo3.jpg

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/3262/07ee2.jpg

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/1213/08vg3.jpg

And homes are more cheap than other Toronto suburbs because most other suburbs do not allow the population to grow out of control where by city hall can’t keep up .And you will find bigger homes in Brampton because Asians part of their couture is everyone lives together so they go for big homes and 6 or 8 of them in the house!!

[sprtsluvr8]

Would you rather have dense development like that or pseudo-rural subdivisions with NO BUS SERVICE AT ALL located 40 km from the city center like in much of suburban Atlanta?

I have to ask...which suburb is it that you are referencing? I do believe that there is rail and/or bus service to suburbs 40 km from central Atlanta. Now if you want to double that distance there are places that don't have transit service because they are in a county that doesn't provide it. People that move to areas like that do so knowing that there is no public transit. But then again 50 miles is pretty far away, and I don't believe there would be much ridership for a 50 mile bus commute....that sounds like torture.

[crisp444]

^^ There is bus service to places like Alpharetta and Roswell, but it's only 1 or 2 lines... there is no services for miles to the east or west of those lines, and places like Woodstock, Suwanee, and Kennesaw are practically not covered at all. I would drive to downtown Atlanta too (or least drive to the nearest MARTA station and park) from these outer suburbs, but apparently Toronto has extensive bus coverage even in its outer suburbs. I was just saying that Toronto's outer suburbs are built in a more transit-oriented way. Not trying to hate on Atlanta, I actually think it's suburbs are very pretty. I'd just drive through them instead of taking the bus because service outside of Marta trains is just not as good as other places in North America.