Philadelphia Having Trouble Keeping Graduates In Town

[BTinSF]

Why won't graduates of Philadelphia's many fine colleges stick around after graduation?

Philadelphia Sales Job
Retaining Graduates Has Been a Tall Order
By DEAN TREFTZ
April 2, 2007; Page A7

PHILADELPHIA -- Still struggling to break out of its postindustrial stagnation, the City of Brotherly Love is aggressively wooing its college students, showering them with affection in hopes of persuading them to stick around.

Philadelphia boasts 82 colleges and universities in and around the city -- including highly regarded schools such as Swarthmore, Bryn Mawr and the University of Pennsylvania -- but has a hard time hanging on to their graduates.

That's a big problem for one of the nation's largest cities, as well as for midsize cities such as Pittsburgh and Cleveland. In a knowledge-based economy, a foundation of well-educated young people can be just as important as real-estate development and big companies. Besides contributing dollars to the local economy, a pool of young professionals serves as a draw for big employers and a spur to entrepreneurship.

While a 2004 report showed the Philadelphia area retained a higher percentage of recent graduates than did the Boston metro area -- 64% and 50%, respectively -- most of those who remained were locals to begin with. Only 29% of graduates originally from outside the Philadelphia area stayed on -- compared with 42% in Boston.

"We've come to see students as four- or five-year tourists," says David Thornburgh, president of the Philadelphia-based Alliance for Regional Stewardship, a consulting network.

Since 2003, a public-private partnership effort, Campus Philly, has worked to retain a greater share of the area's rich supply of graduates. The organization has developed a three-step program that meshes with college careers.

First, along with area schools, Campus Philly works to boost applications and total enrollment, which now exceeds 350,000 students. Next, it tries to build up students' fondness for the area, starting each fall with a festival for students. Last September's included a motocross rally, rapper Fat Joe and pop-punk band Saves the Day. It also reaches out with a booklet of coupons and event listings, several career and internship fairs, and a Web site, www.campusphilly.org1, featuring articles by students and lists of activities from sporting events to concerts. "A student might see [a link to a career fair] when they're looking for their party," Campus Philly Director Jon Herrmann says.

Finally, Campus Philly looks to seal the deal with internships, giving students a taste of what life could be like after graduation. "It's kind of a 'try it before you buy it' strategy," Mr. Thornburgh says.

Since 2003, the group has established 5,000 internships at 1,500 companies including GlaxoSmithKline, Amtrak, Comcast Corp. and Aflac Inc., says Mr. Herrmann, who predicts the temporary jobs will soon lead to permanent ones. And as more graduates stay on, or so the thinking goes, companies will expand or open. "It's a chicken-and-egg game," he says.

Philadelphia is hardly alone in chasing college students. Collegia, a Boston-based consulting firm for college-community partnerships including Campus Philly, also works with Boston, Pittsburgh, Lancaster, Pa., and northeastern Ohio.

The idea for Campus Philly was born a decade ago, after many roundtable discussions and fact-finding trips to other college-dense areas like San Francisco and Boston. With Silicon Valley thriving, the country had just witnessed the first knowledge-driven boom, and "what was really hitting home was that human capital was the coin of the realm," says Mr. Thornburgh, a key player in the effort and son of Dick Thornburgh, former senator, governor and U.S. attorney general.

Surveys have shown that the effort has drawn more students to the Philadelphia area, and raised students' opinions of it. Data from 40 schools showed the number of full-time freshmen rose 9.6% in 2004 from 2001, and a fall 2005 survey by Campus Philly showed that 65% of students wanted to stay in the area after graduation, up from about 50% in 2002.

But the long-run success of Campus Philly depends on students like Karolina Zabawa, a Drexel University senior from the suburb of Burlington, N.J., who interned with a Philadelphia law firm through Drexel's mandatory co-op program. After interning, "you actually realize that there are jobs in Philly," says Ms. Zabawa, who adds she will likely live in the city after graduation.

Others retain a view of Philadelphia as a gritty place with a less-than-vibrant culture. Detroit native Eldra Walker, in her second year of a masters program in historical preservation at the University of Pennsylvania, says she will focus her job hunt on Washington, D.C., where she previously worked. "Even if it wasn't as well-paying a job, I'd still take it in D.C., because I just like it more," Ms. Walker says. "There would just have to be more things to do, a wider variety of cultural attractions" to win her over.

Part of Philadelphia's challenge is overcoming the vestiges of its old manufacturing base. The area's economy has shifted to information and services businesses, pharmaceutical and biotechnology companies, as well as a revived tourism industry tied to plentiful historical attractions. But the city also missed out on some of the urban-revival growth of the 1990s, and lost some big companies to out-of-town mergers during the past decade.

Its population dropped to 1.41 million in 2005 from 1.59 million in 1990, notes Harvard economist Ed Glaeser, while its family poverty rate of 19.9%, compares with a 10.2% nationally. Only 17.9% of Philadelphia County residents above the age of 25 have undergraduate diplomas, according to Moody's Economy.com, compared with 32.5% in Suffolk County, Mass., where Boston is located. As a result, Collegia President Todd Hoffman says, Boston lacks "the same sense of urgency that there is in Philadelphia."

City leaders are sanguine, citing what they say is the community's renewed sense of optimism, a downtown revival and positive feedback, including a 2005 National Geographic Traveler article declaring Philadelphia the "next great city."

And there are success stories like Hannah Schulman. When she arrived at Haverford College from Los Angeles four years ago, she says, "I knew the stereotypes" such as local accents. Now an environmental education intern on a nearby farm, she is looking for work in the area's nonprofit sector.

"There's a lot to be said about the culture of the city," she says, "especially the neighborhoods."

http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/images/NA-AM463_PHILLY_20070401192034.gif

Write to Dean Treftz at dean.treftz@wsj.com2

URL for this article:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB117547807958756464.html

[holladay]

sad news for Philly. What cities have the highest graduate retensions? I'm surprised at how low the Boston figure is.

[Evergrey]

sad news for Philly. What cities have the highest graduate retensions? I'm surprised at how low the Boston figure is.

I'm not... higher education is one of the major industries of Boston, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh and Northeast Ohio... it's inconceivable that these regions would be able to retain all of these students. Is there room for improvement? Yes... but I think this article paints an unfairly grim picture.

It's also somewhat dubious to benchmark Philly against Boston... while Philly has some world-class institutions... Boston is one of the great centers of higher education in the world... its prestige and legacy of excellence easily outshines Philly and even NY. Is Boston something for Philly to aspire to... can Philly learn lessons from Boston? Certainly. But I think it's unfair to benchmark Philly... or Pittsburgh or Cleveland... to Boston... which is a uniquely superlative case.

[donybrx]

This is hardly news.......and remember that Philadelphia has among the highest total enrollments in the nation; many take advantage of its location among the eastern cities especially New York...for example the Trump kids who attended (No. 1 ranked) Wharton School of Business at Penn, then departed for the family hot dog wagon in New York....:).

There are certain schools such as the incomparable Curtis Insitute that send extraordinary musicians out into the world of symphony and opera.....

A lot more kids are staying in pursuit of the arts than previously, with the arts takng off remarkably in Philly....(and many preferring Philly to NYC in some respects these days)..dance, fine arts, and music.....

Overall, Philadelphia is an outstanding educational center in addition to a center for the study of ethics, philosophy, the Constitution. It is unique among American cities.
Retaining students is desirable in some respects, but educating them well and sending them into the world is a more refined objective......

[Evergrey]

since Pittsburgh was mentioned several times in this article...

one of the PGH newspapers addressed this very issue last year... with a much more favourable spin than this WSJ article... unfortunately it is the Tribune-Review... so that article isn't as clear as I'd like it to be...

there's about 135,000 students attending Metro Pittsburgh's 33 universities and colleges

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/today/s_448668.html

"Heinz helped commission a 2003 study by the University of Pittsburgh that examined where graduates of Pitt, Carnegie Mellon and Duquesne universities go. The study found that more than half of the respondents with jobs were working in the Pittsburgh area after graduating in 1999, compared to only 40 percent among 1994 graduates."

"Today, the proportion of local graduates who stay ranges from a low of 20 percent at Carnegie Mellon to a high of 90 percent at Robert Morris University, school officials said. About 9 percent of Carnegie Mellon's students are from the Pittsburgh region, whereas about 75 percent of those who attend Robert Morris are from Southwestern Pennsylvania."



"But even those who grew up outside the region are more inclined to stay. Thirty-three percent of those with no ties to the area stayed to work in 1999, compared to only 20 percent in 1994."

"In 2001, for example, only 19 percent of Carnegie-Mellon's engineering grads stayed in the area, compared to 33 percent last year (2005)."

"The better our students know Pittsburgh, the more they'll want to stay here," Cohon said. "Pittsburgh sells itself."

"I grew to like the city more than the narrow scope students see in Oakland, Squirrel Hill and Shadyside," a student said.

(I included those last two comments because I think it's important for universities to expose students to the city and region beyond the university district if they hope to retain them in the area)

...

The state of Pennsylvania... which includes two major centers of higher education in Philly and Pittsburgh... experienced the country's largest net migration of undergraduate students in 2004... a net gain of over 12,000. That is a great acheivement for the state and a testament to the quality, quantity and diversity of its colleges and universities... but it really is not possible for the state to retain most of those students.


btw... Pittsburgh has a less sassy equivalent of that Campus Philly site... "The College City"... http://www.thecollegecity.com

[PhillyRising]

This is old news....but more are staying now then those who stayed 10 years ago. You see the college students out and about in Center City and they come in from the suburban schools to hang and party in the city.

Also, why would any city expect a large number of out of town students to stay? I didn't stay in Western PA after I graduated...I came home.

[passdoubt]

The chart shown is pretty encouraging. It looks like retention is improving and shows no signs of slowing down.

As dumb/simple as it sounds, 24 hour transit would give Philly a huge boost in retaining post-college singles. People all over the East Coast migrate to NY (or increasingly, DC) after graduation because they know they'll have a safe ride home on a Friday night. Late night transit in Philly is weak and aside from a couple routes in CC/UC, not percieved to be safe enough to stumble home drunk in. The big post-college neighborhood in Philly is Manayunk because it's self-contained enough and safe for people to walk home from the bars.

[BTinSF]

^^^I think some of you are missing the point of the article. With such a large student population, drawn from around the world, nobody expects even a majority of these students to stay in Philadelphia. But Philadelphia itself would apparently like more of them to stay--that's why it's doing the things it's doing to get them to stay. And it's apparently having some success--which the article points out.

Also, though, I think the comparisons with places like Boston are more fair than some of you suggest. On a school for school basis, with the single exception perhaps of Harvard, I think the schools in and around Philadelphia are every bit the equal of those in and around Boston. Penn is Ivy League (if, some might suggest, second tier Ivy league) and schools like Swarthmore, Haverford, and Bryn Mawr and among the best liberal arts colleges in America (personally, I think Swarthmore may be the best).

In reality, having the best schools is probably a negative factor when it comes to getting students to hang around after graduation. Students who go to top private schools come from around the world and have homes to go back to somewhere other than Philadelphia. Also, most of them probably go to grad school (a higher proportion, anyway, than lesser colleges) so whether they hang in Philadelphia or Boston depends on whether they are going to grad school in those places.

[seaskyfan]

...personally, I think Swarthmore may be the best...


Well I don't know if I'd go THAT far.

-Seaskyfan
Haverford '88

:)

[PhillyRising]

perhaps[/i] of Harvard, I think the schools in and around Philadelphia are every bit the equal of those in and around Boston. Penn is Ivy League (if, some might suggest, second tier Ivy league) and schools like Swarthmore, Haverford, and Bryn Mawr and among the best liberal arts colleges in America (personally, I think Swarthmore may be the best).



Actually...Penn has climbed the ladder of academic standing. Many publications have ranked it in the top 5 of all schools in the country. Penn is usually the best in athletics overall in the Ivy League and now it can say it's among the top tier academically too. Their campus has had an amazing transformation and they aren't anywhere near being done.

I know Bill and Hillary went to Yale....but if they gave a diploma to a dolt like George Bush.....then it can't be all that great! ;) :haha:

[seaskyfan]

I was thinking about the folks I went to college with, I think only a few are still in the Philadelphia area now. A lot of folks immediately went to NY or DC, and others went on to school in a lot of different places. This was the mid-late 80s and Center City still had a long way to go to its current sparkly state. I wouldn't be surprised if more folks were sticking around these days.

I have to say the main reason I didn't stick around was the weather - the summers killed me.

[bryson662001]

Where else would kids from Phoenix, Houston and Atlanta come for a superior education before returning home again? And once they have the superior education.....why not give NY a try for a few years?

[Crawford]

^^^I think some of you are missing the point of the article. With such a large student population, drawn from around the world, nobody expects even a majority of these students to stay in Philadelphia. But Philadelphia itself would apparently like more of them to stay--that's why it's doing the things it's doing to get them to stay. And it's apparently having some success--which the article points out.

Also, though, I think the comparisons with places like Boston are more fair than some of you suggest. On a school for school basis, with the single exception perhaps of Harvard, I think the schools in and around Philadelphia are every bit the equal of those in and around Boston. Penn is Ivy League (if, some might suggest, second tier Ivy league) and schools like Swarthmore, Haverford, and Bryn Mawr and among the best liberal arts colleges in America (personally, I think Swarthmore may be the best).



Philly has a great college scene but it has no MIT.

MIT, even moreso than Harvard, is a giant local engine for growth in the Boston area. As with Stanford on the West Coast, MIT is a fantastic asset for the East Coast.

My sense is that Harvard's talent is largely exported to NYC and other locales. MIT students often stay in the Boston area.

[donybrx]

^^sure, sure, but on the whole, Philadelphia generally compares very favorably with Boston generally with or without MIT. And the entirety of PA, as pointed out by Evergrey is a remarkable education engine.....

fwiw.....I seem to recall that the first computer came outta Philly (Penn).....not a bad tech achievement or contribution.....

[ChunkyMonkey]

To be honest with you, I was surprised that Philly has so many students and universities. I've only heard about UPenn. Swarthmore, Bryn Mawr are not really high profile schools. Maybe Philly needs a higher profile marketing campaign.

Boston is unique in that it's education cluster is so dense with so many top schools. Growing up in Asia, you hear about people wanting to go to Harvard and MIT, but no one ever mentions Univ of Pennsylvania.

[donybrx]

^^^Oh. Then that would explain why there are no Asian students at Penn or in Philadelphia....:haha:

Since you were unaware, you might (or might not) be interested in knowing that Philly has numerous schools in/at its urban core including Penn, Drexel (and renowned Hahneman Med. School), big Temple University, Curtis Institute of Music (Leonard Bernstein's alma mater, also that of LangLang among other notable young Asian musicians), La Salle Univ., Moore College of Art for Women, University of the Arts (unique in being the only one of its kind), Jefferson (hospital) University; Philadelphia University; Philadelphia Community College; art school at PA Academy of Fine Arts (America's first art museum/ art school);

.....a bit further out, but still close in to Center City is St. Joseph's University; then there is Villanova University...another very well known, high-ranking school and, as you say, Bryn Mawr (Katherine Hepburn's alma mater), Swarthmore, Haverford College (another leafy, quietly understated, top tier liberal arts school); oh, and Chestnut Hill College...and...I'll have to let somebody else finish the list.....

[ChunkyMonkey]

^^^Oh. Then that would explain why there are no Asian students at Penn or in Philadelphia....:haha:


Umm, where did I say that there are no Asian students at Penn or Philly. All I was saying is that Harvard and MIT has a higher global profile in the world than Univ. of Penn. This is from my experience, or are you disputing that too.

If you don't believe me, than check out some of these random global lists that I googled:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14321230/
#1 Harvard #7 MIT #13 Univ of Penn

http://www.paked.net/higher_education/rankings/times_rankings.htm
#1 Harvard #4 MIT #26 Pennsylvania Univ? (I assume this Univ. of Penn, if it is it kind of proves my point when the name of the school is not even right)

http://www.4icu.org/top200/
#1 MIT #5 Harvard #17 Univ of Penn.

http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2006/ARWU2006_Top100.htm
#1 Harvard #5 MIT #15 Univ of Penn.

Also, in most of those list, Boston University is also listed. That's quite impressive as this is a global list.

I'm not disputing that Philly has universities. I'm just saying that their profiles overseas are much lower than the Boston schools.

[donybrx]

Umm, where did I say that there are no Asian students at Penn or Philly. All I was saying is that Harvard and MIT has a higher global profile in the world than Univ. of Penn. This is from my experience, or are you disputing that too.

.

Ummmm, testy. :)

I tell ya, that Puritan severity prevails......gasp....

(Cripes, how much time did you waste on those links. Don't you have homework?)

On a seious note, I'm not disputing anything if you read carefully....just indicating some facts about Philly suitable for a thread about Philadelphia. You seem rankled that Philadelphia isn't as lowly as you might wish......no one means to be threatening Boston's status....or your own.. I assure you....

[Muji]

I think it's a bit ridiculous to expect the majority of college students in any city to stay after they've graduated. It's perfectly natural to want to go back home, or explore a whole world full of opportunities. It's probably not the most effective way to attract new residents.

That said, Philadelphia is a wonderful place to live and I definitely plan on staying here if I can.

[volguus zildrohar]

passdoubt, "24 hour transit" isn't a stupid comment at all. It's certainly one of the livability factors young people would take into consideration.

Basically, it all has to start somewhere. For so long, this city would be flooded with future success stories in the fall and virtually bereft of them by the summer. All of the good things happening here now are first steps. Today's grads are tomorrow's business community. This is one vital part of the machine that's going to get Philadelphia out of its perpetual funk. When you look at the total picture this city is a really soft sell but it's going to take more time to really steel up the reputation we're only now getting in drips and drabs. As bad as some things are this is an exciting place because everything really is starting over.

[aesop]

The Wharton School at UPenn, alma mater of Donald Trump and Warren Buffett just to name a few, has been ranked the single best business school in the world by the Financial Times in every year in which the magazine has ranked business schools, except for 2005, when it tied with Harvard. So people who think UPenn is a "second rate ivy" are kidding themselves.

And 24-hour transit...or at least past midnight to ~3 is a must in this regard!

[Shasta]

Philly holds it's own when it comes to higher education. Very few metro areas can beat it out (Boston, New York, LA, and the Bay Area are the only ones I'd rank ahead of Philly).

Funny that a poster mentioned Phoenix, Houston, and Atlanta as cities that provide students for Philly colleges. I grew up in Houston. I applied to Haverford out of my prep school. I had 3 friends who ended up at Penn and 1 at Bryn Mawr. My class also sent 2 to Boston College, 1 to BU, 5 to Tufts, and 1 to MIT. Over the past 5 years, here are the top college choices from my prep school;

54 kids to U of Texas (about half in the Honors program)
46 to Rice
27 to SMU
26 Vanderbilt
18 to Trinity in San Antonio
17 each to Georgetown, Virginia and Penn
16 each to Southern Cal and Princeton
15 each to Yale, Northwestern, Stanford, and Duke
12 each to NYU, Emory and Wash U in St Louis
10 each to Dartmouth and Wellesley
9 each to Davidson College and Tulane
8 to Columbia, Colorado-Boulder, and TCU
7 to Amherst, U of Miami, and Georgia
6 to Brown, Richmond, Middlebury, Wake Forest, and Washington+Lee
5 to MIT, Harvard, Sewanee, Rhodes, and Texas ATM

[BG918]

I think it's a bit ridiculous to expect the majority of college students in any city to stay after they've graduated. It's perfectly natural to want to go back home, or explore a whole world full of opportunities. It's probably not the most effective way to attract new residents.

That said, Philadelphia is a wonderful place to live and I definitely plan on staying here if I can.

I think universities should expect about half of their students to stay in the city or state where the college is, if there are jobs of course. The rest are either from elsewhere and want to return or simply take opportunities in other large cities across the country. Where I go to college in Oklahoma we have a lot of Texas students who return to the large cities in their home state but also a number of them end up getting internships in Oklahoma City and stay after college. I'm from Oklahoma, go to college there, but want to experience a new place so I'm headed to Colorado after graduation. It's not that I don't like Oklahoma and there are plenty of job opportunities but I just want to see something new, and I know a lot of young American college grads feel the same way. There are literally too many great cities to choose from!

[Defiant6]

I think it's a bit ridiculous to expect the majority of college students in any city to stay after they've graduated. It's perfectly natural to want to go back home, or explore a whole world full of opportunities. It's probably not the most effective way to attract new residents.

That said, Philadelphia is a wonderful place to live and I definitely plan on staying here if I can.

Why is it a bit ridiculous? Afterall, they are already in the city and they would like them to stay there to fill the jobs up there that are offered. Heck my city, Wichita, recently had an article about this very samething. They want to find ways to keep a majority of its college graduates, even high school graduates in the city. With increased competition of trying to attract jobs and other businesses in other cities, especially in the region from cities like Oklahoma City, Tulsa, Kansas City, and Omaha, they want to try and keep those college graduates here to fill the jobs that are available in the city. Wichita is finally realizing also that it has to have the quality of life aspects that those college graduates crave especially those that are offered in the bigger cities.

[dimondpark]

at my old job here in SF, 4 of my coworkers got their MBAs at Wharton.

[Marcu]

Philly holds it's own when it comes to higher education. Very few metro areas can beat it out (Boston, New York, LA, and the Bay Area are the only ones I'd rank ahead of Philly).



How about Chicago and DC or even Detroit if that includes Ann Arbor.

[donybrx]

OK.....^^^ Philly's dead last among cities over 30,000... how's that for settling accounts. Jeez...you folks.....leave it alone, huh?

I think that aware Philadelphians and others who are informed, are quietly confident of the city's stature among other cities in all ways...prominent historical, arts & culture center, nationally important seaport, shipbuilding city and great center of learning.....and a city happy to have its own Ivy League University (America's first Univ.) with Princeton not too far up the road.......

[Shasta]

How about Chicago and DC or even Detroit if that includes Ann Arbor.

Detroit? Are you serious? Detroit doesn't come close to the Philly area in terms of higher education even if you throw in the entire state of Michigan.

DC is close, especially if you include Baltimore.

Chicago has great schools, but not in the same numbers as Boston, NYC, Philly, DC/Baltimore, LA, and SF Bay.

[Serenade]

I wonder what the numbers are like in Michigan. UM (and MSU) is one of the top universities in the world, attracting students from all over the nation and world. People want to come to the state of Michigan for a higher education, but how many are willing to stay after they graduate?

[BTinSF]

Well I don't know if I'd go THAT far.

-Seaskyfan
Haverford '88

:)

Hey, I went to Johns Hopkins and we were all (JHU, Haverford, Swarthmore) in the same athletic league (Mid-Atlantic Conference or something like that--lacrosse was a bigger sport than football), but I still think Swarthmore may be the best college in the US.

By the way, my college French instructor was a Haverford grad and I thought he was WAY cool. :tup:

OK, look people--you can name a lot of cities and towns with one great university like Ann Arbor. What makes Philadelphia almost incomparable--Boston only outranks it if you include a wide swath of New England--is the number of really top quality schools around there, starting with the ones already mentioned: Penn, Princeton (really very close--as close as Stanford is to SF)), Swarthmore, Haverford, Bryn Mawr. I'm from San Francisco, but I don't think we are in the same league. On the undergrad level, we've got 2 great schools (Stanford and Berkeley) and a bunch of, frankly, mediocre ones.

[pj3000]

From Boston to Washington... the greatest concentration of higher education in the world. There's really no need to break it all down into which city has the most, the top, the best, etc.....

[mello]

I don't see how LA beats out Philly. I have never thought of LA being this great educational center. I don't know I've grown up in Southern California my whole life and went to a large high school with a bunch of rich kids and it was never talked about how our giant neighbor to the North was some big cheese on the college scene like Boston.

Maybe it is just my San Diego bias (most people who are born and raised in SD aren't huge LA boosters) but can someone explain why Shasta would claim LA has a bigger/better higher ed scene then Philly.

[ocman]

I don't see how LA beats out Philly. I have never thought of LA being this great educational center. I don't know I've grown up in Southern California my whole life and went to a large high school with a bunch of rich kids and it was never talked about how our giant neighbor to the North was some big cheese on the college scene like Boston.

Maybe it is just my San Diego bias (most people who are born and raised in SD aren't huge LA boosters) but can someone explain why Shasta would claim LA has a bigger/better higher ed scene then Philly.

Caltech. No one has heard of it and people think its a vocational school, but it's among the most prestigious of private universities. Then you have UCLA which is a pretty high ranking among public universities and can claim among top 5 on a bunch of different list criteria ranking schools.

[ocman]

I think the answer to why Philly can't retain grads comes from the private vs. public university admissions standards.

If it's a private school, and the more prestigious it is, they'll go to Philly simply for the school, not for the city. With public universities, the admissions is more provincial as they take in more in-state students. Public universities are less prestigious and the students are more likely to take the city setting into account.

I don't see how Philly's situation is different from Boston. Graduates tend to leave Boston as well from the more prestigious of their universities. The prestige of the university probably has a opposite effect on retaining grads. The focus has to be on public universities.

[Shasta]

I don't see how LA beats out Philly. I have never thought of LA being this great educational center. I don't know I've grown up in Southern California my whole life and went to a large high school with a bunch of rich kids and it was never talked about how our giant neighbor to the North was some big cheese on the college scene like Boston.

Maybe it is just my San Diego bias (most people who are born and raised in SD aren't huge LA boosters) but can someone explain why Shasta would claim LA has a bigger/better higher ed scene then Philly.


Oh, I don't know...

Cal Tech
UCLA
UC Irvine
UC Riverside
USC
Pepperdine
Pomona
Claremont-McKenna
Harvey Mudd
Scripps
Occidental
Pitzer
Loyola Marymount
Redlands
Chapman
Azusa Pacific
Cal Lutheran

All of these schools are rated in the top of their respective categories (national universities, liberal arts colleges, and masters universities). Together, these 17 colleges/universities have 102,278 full-time undergrads.

By comparison, Philly only has 8 schools rated in those same categories (11 if you include Princeton, the College of New Jersey, and the U of Delaware). Those 8 schools enroll 35,878 (61,222 if you include the 3 schools in other states).

So, even if you include Princeton, UD, and TCNJ, the LA region has FORTY ONE THOUSAND AND FIFTY SIX more students attending highly regarded schools.

[mello]

Oh I don't know Shasta boy....

Yeah I guess you just made me look like a jack ass on that one. Well I gave it a shot. I think its time for me to move to LA because my little pitifull metro area doesn't have squat as far as prestigeous top rated schools go:

Univ. of California San Diego
SDSU
University of San Diego
Point Loma Nazarene
San Marcos State University

Damn San Diego bites the big one!
Well I'm off to Santa Monica to get a nice rent controlled studio and root for the Dodgers:jester:

[PhillyRising]

The one thing nobody has mentioned that for many years the Philadelphia business community was very insular....and if you wanted to get into the game you had to know someone or be related to someone in that community which pretty much excluded most of the students coming out of the local universities. Any shock that the city government ran the same way?

Today's business community in the city is much more open...and once we dump Mayor One Way Street...hopefully city government will follow.

[atlantaguy]

That sounds like EastsideHBG's description of how Harrisburg still is!

[BTinSF]

Oh, I don't know...

Cal Tech
UCLA
UC Irvine
UC Riverside
USC
Pepperdine
Pomona
Claremont-McKenna
Harvey Mudd
Scripps
Occidental
Pitzer
Loyola Marymount
Redlands
Chapman
Azusa Pacific
Cal Lutheran

All of these schools are rated in the top of their respective categories (national universities, liberal arts colleges, and masters universities). Together, these 17 colleges/universities have 102,278 full-time undergrads.

By comparison, Philly only has 8 schools rated in those same categories (11 if you include Princeton, the College of New Jersey, and the U of Delaware). Those 8 schools enroll 35,878 (61,222 if you include the 3 schools in other states).

So, even if you include Princeton, UD, and TCNJ, the LA region has FORTY ONE THOUSAND AND FIFTY SIX more students attending highly regarded schools.

With all due respect: UCLA vs Penn and Princeton? On the basketball court, maybe. Otherwise :haha:

It's Kroger vs. Whole Foods, man.

[seaskyfan]

Hey, I went to Johns Hopkins and we were all (JHU, Haverford, Swarthmore) in the same athletic league (Mid-Atlantic Conference or something like that--lacrosse was a bigger sport than football), but I still think Swarthmore may be the best college in the US.

By the way, my college French instructor was a Haverford grad and I thought he was WAY cool. :tup:


I'm actually not that invested in which school is best - I think by the time you get to a certain level the schools tend to provide different enough offerings that it can get into an apples and oranges thing. You're right that Swarthmore is consistently ranked among the top two or three liberal arts colleges in the country.

We used to be able to take classes at UPenn and Swat (we could major or live at Bryn Mawr) and I always remember the Swat folks being kind of intense. Mike Dukakis went there - I think he would have been considered one of the fun guys on campus.

I've been in Seattle since 1989 and it was kind of nice to get out of the whole NE Corridor college madness. When I moved here there were folks who assumed that since I'd gone to a private school I must not have been sharp enough to have gotten into the University of Washington.

[Serenade]

I bet most PSU and Temple grads live in the Philly area. Penn and Swarthmore grads aren't staying in town. They're heading off to DC or NYC or LA. Same with Harvard and Stanford grads. This is hardly a major problem for Philly.

However in Michigan this is a major issue. I bet the number of UM graduates living in Chicago alone is much greater than those living in the entire state of Michigan.

[PhillyRising]

Oh, I don't know...

Cal Tech
UCLA
UC Irvine
UC Riverside
USC
Pepperdine
Pomona
Claremont-McKenna
Harvey Mudd
Scripps
Occidental
Pitzer
Loyola Marymount
Redlands
Chapman
Azusa Pacific
Cal Lutheran

All of these schools are rated in the top of their respective categories (national universities, liberal arts colleges, and masters universities). Together, these 17 colleges/universities have 102,278 full-time undergrads.

By comparison, Philly only has 8 schools rated in those same categories (11 if you include Princeton, the College of New Jersey, and the U of Delaware). Those 8 schools enroll 35,878 (61,222 if you include the 3 schools in other states).

So, even if you include Princeton, UD, and TCNJ, the LA region has FORTY ONE THOUSAND AND FIFTY SIX more students attending highly regarded schools.

There are more than 8 schools in the area...and many of them are ver5y well regarded. The Philadelphia metro area has the most college students...more than Boston. Period. End of Story....We're Number 1..and if nobody likes the fact Philadelphia is #1 in something...well too bad cos we are. . :D

[mello]

Ha Take that big bad Los Angeles, Philly got you on this one! Sheesh, tryin to say Philadelphia only has 8 schools... :jester:

[Shasta]

Uh, maybe you should re-enroll in one of those schools and take a basic reading comprehension course.

I didn't say Philly only had 8 schools. I did say that Philly only had 8 schools rated in the top categories (11 if you include schools in other states nearby to Philly).

[pj3000]

^ This type of argument is ridiculous, and definitely not the type that graduates of any of the named schools should be having. It's a very high schoolish, "my school's better than yours" type of thing. Anyone who truly knows anything about higher education, knows that all of the rankings, ratings, etc. are a load of crap. That US News & World Report rating system, which for some reason people cite as some kind of authority... complete garbage... done to sell magazines.

All of these cities are top educational centers. There is no possible way to accurately determine which is best. All have very strong, highly selective schools. Period.

[donybrx]

Uh, maybe you should re-enroll in one of those schools and take a basic reading comprehension course.

I didn't say Philly only had 8 schools. I did say that Philly only had 8 schools rated in the top categories (11 if you include schools in other states nearby to Philly).

You also had to go 70 miles away to La Jolla (Scripps) to pad your total......either way...its no contest not to forget to mention that Penn alone has 20,000 enrolled............

[dbrenna5]

I think this topic just got very interesting. What are the effects of having a university enrolling tens of thousands of students, versus a more selective university? Prestige vs. size.

One example is my current school Arizona State University. It is the only school of any size in the entire Phoenix metropolitan area, yet it enrolls some 60,00 students. How does that compare per person for the metropolitan area though, because that seems to be a more relavent measure. Sure the LA metro may have 100,000 college students, but that spread over an area thats home to what, 17 million? Phoenix has a ratio (taking the 60,000 from ASU and the 3,715,000 metro figure) of approx 1 student per 61 ppl in the metro. By my count, LA would be approx 1 student per 170 ppl (assuming a metro of 17 mill and 100,000 students).

But then again, LA has some very prestigous universities, and ASU is well... number one party school? Thats got to count for something!! ;)

[spoonman]

You also had to go 70 miles away to La Jolla (Scripps) to pad your total......either way...its no contest not to forget to mention that Penn alone has 20,000 enrolled............

It's a typical example of LA boosters...they discredit San Diego at every opportunity, but when they have trouble making the numbers (and they often do) they try to include San Diego into their figures as if it's part of their metro. :lmao:

[Shasta]

You also had to go 70 miles away to La Jolla (Scripps) to pad your total......either way...its no contest not to forget to mention that Penn alone has 20,000 enrolled............

Since when has Scripps been in La Jolla?

Scripps is part of the Claremont Colleges group (Pomona, Pitzer, Harvey Mudd, Scripps, and Claremont-McKenna). They are definitely a part of the LA Metro Region, especially if Philly formumers are trying to include schools North of Trenton in their region.

AND, Penn has less than 10,000 undergrads.

[PhillyRising]

Uh, maybe you should re-enroll in one of those schools and take a basic reading comprehension course.

I didn't say Philly only had 8 schools. I did say that Philly only had 8 schools rated in the top categories (11 if you include schools in other states nearby to Philly).

All you did was spin the numbers to make Los Angeles look better so you could claim something that isn't true. The Philadelphia metro area claims the most college students...and the metro area does include two other states...since New Jersey sits across the river and Delaware is only 20 miles south of the city. For crying out loud...can't we claim to be #1 in something without somebody pissing on our parade?

[Shasta]

It's a typical example of LA boosters...they discredit San Diego at every opportunity, but when they have trouble making the numbers (and they often do) they try to include San Diego into their figures as if it's part of their metro. :lmao:

I am not an LA booster. I am from Houston, went to school in NY State, and live in Boston.

I just happened to have been a college counselor for 4 years so I like to stick to FACTS.

SCRIPPS IS NOT IN LA JOLLA. Do a google search. It's pretty damn easy. If you don't want to, here's a link;

www.scrippscollege.edu

[PhillyRising]

Since when has Scripps been in La Jolla?

Scripps is part of the Claremont Colleges group (Pomona, Pitzer, Harvey Mudd, Scripps, and Claremont-McKenna). They are definitely a part of the LA Metro Region, especially if Philly formumers are trying to include schools North of Trenton in their region.

AND, Penn has less than 10,000 undergrads.

...however...they have over 10,000 post grads. Temple has 33,600 students. The University of Delaware has 19,000 total student under and post. That is in New Castle County, Delaware...part of the metro area. West Chester Univerity...4 miles from my house...has about 13,000 total students under and post graduate. Even Villanova being a private Catholic University has almost 10,000 total students under and post grad. You are totally missing the scores of small colleges scattered all over the place around here....Immaculata (The school that won the first women's Basketball National Championsip in the early 1970's)...Cabrini...Eastern...Rosemont...Gwynned Mercy..Cheyney...Lincoln...Wiedner...Swarthmore...Chestnut Hill College...Ursinus...Delaware Valley College..Arcadia (the former Beaver College...:D )..Philadelphia Textile...Philadelphia Pharmacy...along with more well known LaSalle and St. Joseph's. Those are just in Pennsylvania and I'm sure I missed a few.

[Shasta]

If you are just going to get into a debate about enrollment figures and listing every school in each city's metro area, you'll lose. It's as simple as LA is way bigger than Philly.

LA has mega schools like Long Beach State, Cal State Northridge, Cal State Los Angles, UCLA, Southern Cal, Cal State Fullerton, Cal Irvine, Cal Riverside, etc...

[mello]

Beware all Philly dwellers the "mega city" has "mega schools"..... you can never compete with the *most dense sunbelt sprawler of them all*

http://www.iol.ie/~wayneh/baywatch/life.gif

:haha: :worship:

[donybrx]

If you are just going to get into a debate about enrollment figures and listing every school in each city's metro area, you'll lose. It's as simple as LA is way bigger than Philly.

LA has mega schools like Long Beach State, Cal State Northridge, Cal State Los Angles, UCLA, Southern Cal, Cal State Fullerton, Cal Irvine, Cal Riverside, etc...

Listen you......this thread is NOT about LA; not at all.... maybe you need to brush up on your comprehension. If you feel compelled to "enhance' LA to satisfy yourself...then do so but NEVER do so by attempting to diminish another city...Philly or otherwise...or striking up a VS scenario. it always ends badly and guys like you that can't help themselves get a rep for poor judgment if not poor attitude and manners.

Go start an LA thread and stick to facts.....and go now...

Monitors, please convince him.............

Oh, and.....

"About Scripps
With more than a century of exploration and discovery in global sciences, Scripps Institution of Oceanography is the world's preeminent center for ocean and earth research, teaching, and public education.

A graduate school of UC San Diego, Scripps's leadership in many scientific fields reflects its continuing commitment to excellence in research, modern facilities and ships, distinguished faculty, and outstanding students - and the horizons continue to expand."

http://sio.ucsd.edu/

[LostInTheZone]

While a 2004 report showed the Philadelphia area retained a higher percentage of recent graduates than did the Boston metro area -- 64% and 50%, respectively -- most of those who remained were locals to begin with. Only 29% of graduates originally from outside the Philadelphia area stayed on -- compared with 42% in Boston.

I don't understand the negative spin- why would we expect huge numbers of people to abandon their families and move in the first place? I can't wait to move back with my family and freinds once I'm out of state-school hell. I would think the the fact that almost a third of out-of-towners who go to school here decided to stay is pretty good news. The fact that we retain more locals than Boston does speaks pretty well for the city too.

No one moves to Philadelphia because of we have an awesome job market or a cool national reputation they can brag about. People move here because they love it.

[PhillyRising]

If you are just going to get into a debate about enrollment figures and listing every school in each city's metro area, you'll lose. It's as simple as LA is way bigger than Philly.

LA has mega schools like Long Beach State, Cal State Northridge, Cal State Los Angles, UCLA, Southern Cal, Cal State Fullerton, Cal Irvine, Cal Riverside, etc...

No...you lose. It's already a known fact that we have the most students of any metro area. We're #1...and LA isn't.

[LostInTheZone]

Nation, you're a great guy and all, so don't get me wrong, but you come off as having such an inferiority complex in your posts. It's kind of annoying.

[Evergrey]

Werd. The collection of Philadelphia VS Sunbelt threads in City Discussions is growing quite toxic.

[PhillyRising]

Nation, you're a great guy and all, so don't get me wrong, but you come off as having such an inferiority complex in your posts. It's kind of annoying.

That's your opinion and you are free to feel that way. You also can choose not to read anything I post either. I don't think our town is inferior at all and I don't feel inferior for living here. I'm just trying to get the good things about our area out there....and goddamn it...it was reported that we had the most...so why must we have to defend something that is already factual? You do notice the only two active threads in City Discussions about Philly are both negative? What a shock!

[LostInTheZone]

what I'm trying to say is, responding to negativity with more negativity does not move the discussion forward. I've met you and I like you as a person, and there are plenty of things you contribute to this site, but I don't think you realize how whiny you come off sounding half the time. Do you know what "inferiority complex" actually means?

[Pennsgrant]

If you are just going to get into a debate about enrollment figures and listing every school in each city's metro area, you'll lose. It's as simple as LA is way bigger than Philly.

LA has mega schools like Long Beach State, Cal State Northridge, Cal State Los Angles, UCLA, Southern Cal, Cal State Fullerton, Cal Irvine, Cal Riverside, etc...


That was always kind of an urban legend in these parts. That Philly area had the most college students in the entire country. The Philadlephia Inquirer did an expose about local colleges/universities and found out that Philadlephia as usual was a bit back in the pack in regards to number of college students. It was behind NY,LA,Chi, Wahington and Boston.

[timeo]

Does it have anything to do with perceived/actual levels of crime?

[aswedc]

I went to school in Philly, but I'm leaving soon-ish. I bet a good bit of the people leaving aren't doing so because of controllable factors.

Personally, I like warm weather. If it's going to be cold, I at least expect some snow. Philly has none of that. Barely get any snow anymore, the winters are just cold and rainy. And the summers are too humid.

I'm not going to spend half the year inside when I can spend the whole year enjoying myself somewhere else. Bye!

[Shasta]

Listen you......this thread is NOT about LA; not at all.... maybe you need to brush up on your comprehension. If you feel compelled to "enhance' LA to satisfy yourself...then do so but NEVER do so by attempting to diminish another city...Philly or otherwise...or striking up a VS scenario. it always ends badly and guys like you that can't help themselves get a rep for poor judgment if not poor attitude and manners.

Go start an LA thread and stick to facts.....and go now...

Monitors, please convince him.............

Oh, and.....

"About Scripps
With more than a century of exploration and discovery in global sciences, Scripps Institution of Oceanography is the world's preeminent center for ocean and earth research, teaching, and public education.

A graduate school of UC San Diego, Scripps's leadership in many scientific fields reflects its continuing commitment to excellence in research, modern facilities and ships, distinguished faculty, and outstanding students - and the horizons continue to expand."

http://sio.ucsd.edu/


Uh, those are two DIFFERENT schools. Scripps is indeed a graduate school at UCSD but it is also a name for a very prestigious woman's liberal arts college in Claremont, California.

I didn't try to hijack this thread but I did try and bring some common sense and factual information to the debate. I'm sorry to confuse you so much with the facts. I will let you return to your myopia.

[donybrx]

Uh, those are two DIFFERENT schools.



No.......! really???? :)

If you say "Scripps," most people think of the more noted Scripps Institute, not the obscure liberal arts school.

I submit that the thread, again, had to do with grads not staying in Philadelphia. Several others commented in ways that did bring perspective to the topic. And, it's a quite limited topic--- unless it turns into a 'vs'.

You have introduced everyone to Scripps College, however.. and the institutions of the city of Claremont.....I suppose that's constructive.......