The American South: Goodbye to the Blues

[Marcu]

Goodbye to the blues


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http://www.economist.com/images/20070303/CSU817.gif


Mar 1st 2007
From The Economist print edition

The American South, once notorious for violence, poverty and racism, is now pleasant and prosperous, says Robert Guest (interviewed here). But it still has some catching up to do

IN 1943 Achie Matthews quit sharecropping and headed north to seek a better life. He found it. His wages in a steel factory in Ohio were fatter and more predictable than the pittance he had earned coaxing cotton out of Mississippi's soil. And although race relations in Ohio were hardly ideal, he was at least free of the daily indignities and the pervasive threat of violence that made life so cruel for a black man in the segregated South.

His story was typical. Seventy years ago the average income in America's South was $314 a year. In current dollars that would be about $4,400, meaning that southerners then were about as rich as the people of Botswana are today. Half the workers in the South in the 1930s were farmers, and half of those did not own the land they farmed. Some paid rent. Others, like Matthews, gave their landlord a share of their crop. The average landless cotton farmer made $73 a year ($1,023 today). Small wonder that by the late 1930s a quarter of those born in the southern countryside—black and white—had emigrated to the north or to southern cities.

Matthews lived and worked in Ohio for the rest of his life and died, much lamented, last year. During his lifetime the South was transformed. A political system based on fear and division was replaced by multiracial democracy. Southerners no longer subsist by sweating in fields, but by making cars, pampering tourists or flying urgent packages around the world.

In 1937 southern incomes were only half the American average; today they are 91% of it. If you allow for the lower cost of living in the South, the gap all but vanishes. Since the 1960s, more whites have moved to the South than have left it. Since the 1970s, the same has been true for African-Americans. The South's share of America's population has risen from just over a quarter in 1960 to a third today, making it the most populous American region. (This special report defines “the South” as the 11 states of the old Confederacy plus Kentucky and Oklahoma; see map.)

Last May, Matthews's granddaughter, Katrice Mines, joined the southward surge of young black professionals and moved to Atlanta, Georgia. Over a lunch of chicken with peaches, crushed walnuts and snap peas, Ms Mines admits that, before she moved, she was somewhat afraid of the South. But she quickly found a job, as an associate editor of the Atlanta Tribune, a black business magazine. Up north in Sandusky, Ohio, she had felt her talents were untapped. Down South, she feels more optimistic. Atlanta is majority-black. It is also rich, with more Fortune 500 headquarters than any other American city bar New York and Houston. “There are so many African-Americans in powerful positions,” says Ms Mines. “You can get your foot in the door.”

The new New South

It is old hat to talk of the “New South”. The phrase dates back at least to 1886, and the writer Joel Garreau counts “at least six major, widely hailed, New Souths since Lee's surrender to Grant, not to mention the minor, trial-balloon, New Souths that the sad surplus of New Southern journalists float from time to time (everybody's got to eat).” But repetition does not make a label false. People talk about the New South because the region really has changed, dramatically and repeatedly, in a startlingly short space of time.

Before the civil war the southern economy depended on slavery. This was not only inhuman; it was also inefficient. The slave-owners prospered, to be sure. Their workers did not have to be paid, and their assets multiplied by having children. But only a small minority of southern whites owned slaves, and the system hurt nearly everyone else. Blacks, obviously, were the principal victims. Unskilled whites suffered, too, since unpaid black labour depressed their wages. And slavery helped keep the South backward. The planters, with all their capital tied up in slaves, had little incentive to invest in labour-saving technology. And with few modern industries to man, the southern ruling class saw little point in mass education.

Then the civil war wiped out two-thirds of the South's wealth. Partly, this was for the happy reason that freed slaves were deemed to be human beings, not chattels. But the Unionist troops also burned several cities to cinders, ransacked farms and tore up most of the South's railways, tying some stretches of track around trees to form “Sherman bow ties”, named after a northern general, William Sherman. Roughly a quarter of able-bodied male southerners were killed or wounded. In the first year of peace, Mississippi spent a fifth of its state budget on artificial limbs.

During the “Reconstruction” period of 1865-77 the South was occupied by northern troops. This humiliation—something no other part of America has tasted—still rankles for some white southerners. For blacks it was a blessing: the occupying northern army upheld their right to vote. But when that army withdrew, they lost it again. During the “Jim Crow” era, southern Democrats ruthlessly reasserted white supremacy. Blacks were barred from voting, and their disfranchisement allowed white politicians to keep white schools white and black schools shabby. Any black who protested could be lynched.

In short, for nearly all of its recorded history the South has been ruled by violence, or the threat of it. From 1619 (when the first shackled African landed in Virginia) until 1865, slaves had to work or be whipped. From the end of Reconstruction until the triumph of the civil-rights movement in the 1960s, southern blacks who tried to vote risked a beating or worse. It took a war to dismantle the first system. The second was swept away almost without bloodshed, by peaceful protesters whose televised encounters with thuggish policemen shamed the federal government into intervening once more.

The lesson of southern history is that non-violence works, both in that narrow sense and in a broader one. An economic system based on free labour and free exchange is far more dynamic and adaptable than a system based on coercion. And a political system that heeds all voices is far more stable than one that heeds some and seeks to silence the rest.

For those whose freshest impressions come from news coverage of Hurricane Katrina in 2005, it may seem odd to describe the South as peaceful, pleasant and prosperous. Surely the storm that hit New Orleans revealed a society plagued with poverty and teetering on the edge of barbarism? No. Granted, there was a lot of looting, but reports of widespread murder and even cannibalism were hysterical and false. And pundits who likened the flood's aftermath to a third-world disaster cannot have seen many of those.

New Orleans, for all its joie de vivre, is one of the worst-run cities in America. For the South as a whole, the picture is much brighter. Indeed, the question is no longer “will the South rise again?” but “will it one day overtake the north?” Mark Sanford, the governor of South Carolina, does not hesitate before answering “yes”. The South, he says, has low taxes, weak unions, business-friendly state governments, sunshine and a quality of life that will increasingly attract people who can work anywhere with a broadband connection.

The South's share of American GDP has risen from 22% in 1963 to 31% today. Its share of America's population is still growing, but income per head, which peaked at nearly 96% of the national norm in 1981, has struggled to regain that proportion. Does this matter? As Georgia's governor, Sonny Perdue, points out, it is not a race. There are worse fates than remaining nine-tenths as rich as America, a country that is richer and grows faster than any other large rich country. There is even an argument that growth, by attracting so many newcomers to the South, threatens the region's unique charm. Walker Hodges, who manages a trucking firm in Wilson, North Carolina, laments that the “Tom Sawyer adventures” of his youth in the 1950s are now impossible, because the deserted rivers where he enjoyed them now have thousands of boats on them.

On the other hand, faster economic growth could solve many of the South's lingering problems: the large remaining tracts of relative poverty; the 19% of southerners who lack health insurance; perhaps even the South's high rate of violent crime. Greater prosperity translates into more choices for individuals—no small boon in a culture that so fervently celebrates cussed individualism. Most southerners would be happy to see more economic growth. The biggest obstacle, many believe, is the poor state of southern schools, though even those are improving.

[JManc]

plus it's warm and growing.

[ginsan2]

plus it's warm and growing.

And warmer. I look forward to the day I can move to Dallas, or San Antonio. It's like the affordable California.

[AZheat]

If I can ever get my house sold I'll be on my way to Nashville, Tennessee. One of the surprising things I've discovered is the huge numbers of Americans who move from state to state. The largest number of newcomers to Tennessee are from Florida while the most popular state for those who are leaving is Georgia. Even though over 400,000 people have moved from Tennessee in the past several years over a half million have moved in so it's population is growing. I'm looking forward to another move and change of scenery and I guess millions of other Americans are doing the same thing.

[galaca]

And warmer. I look forward to the day I can move to Dallas, or San Antonio. It's like the affordable California.

Without the ocean, or the mountains or... :D

[BTinSF]

And warmer. I look forward to the day I can move to Dallas, or San Antonio. It's like the affordable California.

Not even in your dreams. More like the affordable Phoenix.

[austin356]

uhhhh, delete.

[BnaBreaker]

If I can ever get my house sold I'll be on my way to Nashville, Tennessee. One of the surprising things I've discovered is the huge numbers of Americans who move from state to state. The largest number of newcomers to Tennessee are from Florida while the most popular state for those who are leaving is Georgia. Even though over 400,000 people have moved from Tennessee in the past several years over a half million have moved in so it's population is growing. I'm looking forward to another move and change of scenery and I guess millions of other Americans are doing the same thing.

Hey good choice grasshopper! :tup:

[JManc]

i really liked nashville. also like atlanta and charlotte.

as much as miss the northeast, i don't miss the cold/ ice and the stagnant economy (well, new york state at least)

[Lecom]

as much as miss the northeast, i don't miss the cold/ ice and the stagnant economy (well, new york state at least)
You used "New York State" and "economy" in the same sentence?

[ginsan2]

Not even in your dreams. More like the affordable Phoenix.

I've seen Cali from San Diego to San Fran, and other than the massive population crush, I'm largely uncertain why the hype. California is arguably more attractive, but the standard of living is so much lower-- and in Texas I'll be able to afford a nice apartment and still have money left over to invest. I don't need an impoverished coffee scene to escape my ten roommates as a function of beauty. That's really what attracts people to the South. And that's really the point of this article.

Furthermore, Phoenix is very affordable; Scottsdale, maybe not.

"Peaceful, pleasant and prosperous" is the catchline, and that's what has me snagged.


Without the ocean, or the mountains or...

Find a map, put your finger on Houston, and trace due south.

[JManc]

we have no mountains though. :( and our ocean has a lot of jellyfish and seaweed.

[galaca]

Actually I was just talking about San Antonio and Dallas. :)

[ginsan2]

we have no mountains though. :( and our ocean has a lot of jellyfish and seaweed.
Mountains waste land. And I don't swim; nor am I particularly enamored with the beach. I like my land flat for cultivation, aesthetic organization or otherwise.

[Nutterbug]

And warmer. I look forward to the day I can move to Dallas, or San Antonio. It's like the affordable California.

Without the ocean, or the mountains or... :D

and with the 100+ weather.

[BnaBreaker]

Mountains waste land.
:sly:

lol that is certainly one of the more bizarre comments i've read on this forum.

[Rail Claimore]

Well, I moved to Illinois from Alabama, but not because I hate my former state. In fact, I hope to visit as often as I can. The amazing thing is that since 2000, the growth in the region isn't concentrated merely in Virginia, NC, Georgia, and Florida... it's spread to SC, Alabama, Tennessee, and Kentucky. It's only a matter of time before Mississippi, Louisiana, and Arkansas follow suit.

[AZheat]

On different forums I've heard alot of people from Florida who have already moved or are thinking about it due to the high cost of housing, high property tax, and of course the threat from hurricanes has caused homeowners insurance to skyrocket. We all know what happened to Louisiana and Mississippi after Katrina so extreme weather is going to play a major role in the development of the south, particularly along the coast. The midSouth and inland areas should make gains as a result. The western part of North Carolina, for example, is becoming very heavily populated.

[Marcu]

On different forums I've heard alot of people from Florida who have already moved or are thinking about it due to the high cost of housing, high property tax, and of course the threat from hurricanes has caused homeowners insurance to skyrocket. We all know what happened to Louisiana and Mississippi after Katrina so extreme weather is going to play a major role in the development of the south, particularly along the coast. The midSouth and inland areas should make gains as a result. The western part of North Carolina, for example, is becoming very heavily populated.

It will be interesting to see if the south will continue to develop in the "sun-belt" style way (car oriented, mid sized cities, etc.) or whether some mega-cities will emerge that will potentially rival northern cities like nyc, chicago, and boston in density.

[TexasStar]

It will be interesting to see if the south will continue to develop in the "sun-belt" style way (car oriented, mid sized cities, etc.) or whether some mega-cities will emerge that will potentially rival northern cities like nyc, chicago, and boston in density.

Let's hope so...

[Elwood]

One of the surprising things I've discovered is the huge numbers of Americans who move from state to state. The largest number of newcomers to Tennessee are from Florida while the most popular state for those who are leaving is Georgia. Even though over 400,000 people have moved from Tennessee in the past several years over a half million have moved in so it's population is growing. I'm looking forward to another move and change of scenery and I guess millions of other Americans are doing the same thing.
Having so many options on choosing where to live in the States is one aspect of American life that I am sooooo envious of. Being a Canadian who would love a change, our options are very limited as to choice of relocating. It's quite repressing and frustrating not to mention seriously limits your opportunities in life. I know many Canucks will, predictably, toss tomatoes at me for saying this, but facts are facts.

[trvlr70]

Our economy is ever becoming more service oriented, so our careers are less attached to geography as they were in the past. Basically, in the future, you'll likely be able to do your job from anywhere. At that point, people will choose to live in more favorable climates. I expect the population of the South to keep rising.

I'd pick Western North Carolina as having the absolute best all around climate in the US. All four seasons are well represented but all are moderate and enjoyable.

[MolsonExport]

Perhaps one day the depressed areas of the northeast (esp. upstate NY, central Penn, and the rust belt zone) will one day also experience a rennaissance.

[MayDay]

"Up north in Sandusky, Ohio, she had felt her talents were untapped. Down South, she feels more optimistic."

Umm, comparing Sandusky to Atlanta? Let's see - would someone in the field of business journalism have more opportunities in a city of less than 30,000, or Atlanta? :hmmm::dunce:

[Marcu]

Perhaps one day the depressed areas of the northeast (esp. upstate NY, central Penn, and the rust belt zone) will one day also experience a rennaissance.

Doubt it. Northern union bought states just never learn. The governor of Illinois just announced plans for the largest tax hike in state history on corporate revenue. It essentially acts as a reverse tariff by penalizing Illinois consumers who choose to buy services and products from in state companies instead of out of state companies that are not subject to the tax and who will not pass it on to the consumers. The tax is modeled after the Ohio tax model. A state that let's just say has struggled to stay competitive.

Expect more Illinoisians to head down south for jobs, lower cost of living, and slightly less irrational politicians.

[JManc]

It will be interesting to see if the south will continue to develop in the "sun-belt" style way (car oriented, mid sized cities, etc.) or whether some mega-cities will emerge that will potentially rival northern cities like nyc, chicago, and boston in density.

perhaps not in density but the city of houston is projected to gain another million residents within the next 20 years and a few more million in the 'burbs.

[Rail Claimore]

Doubt it. Northern union bought states just never learn. The governor of Illinois just announced plans for the largest tax hike in state history on corporate revenue. It essentially acts as a reverse tariff by penalizing Illinois consumers who choose to buy services and products from in state companies instead of out of state companies that are not subject to the tax and who will not pass it on to the consumers. The tax is modeled after the Ohio tax model. A state that let's just say has struggled to stay competitive.

Expect more Illinoisians to head down south for jobs, lower cost of living, and slightly less irrational politicians.

I would hardly call Illinois a "union-bought" state, or put it in the same basketcase category as Ohio (or Michigan, for that matter). Illinois is actually one of the lower-taxed and less-regulated (http://www.freetheworld.com/efna.html) states in the country, and is less dependent on manufacturing than some of the states to its east.

[Marcu]

I would hardly call Illinois a "union-bought" state, or put it in the same basketcase category as Ohio (or Michigan, for that matter). Illinois is actually one of the lower-taxed and less-regulated (http://www.freetheworld.com/efna.html) states in the country, and is less dependent on manufacturing than some of the states to its east.

That study uses numbers that go up to 2003. Since than, particularly under the Blagojevich administration, Illinois has become drastically less competitive. A recent Forbes study ranked Illinois 44th just ahead of Michigan and 10 spots behind Ohio.

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/9/06beststates_The-Best-States-For-Business_Rank_2.html

5 of the top 10 are in the south.

[Navin]

Doubt it. Northern union bought states just never learn.

Something is missing from your simplistic analysis. Northern, union-bought, high-tax Minnesota is outgrowing most of those states' GDPs. There could be more to it than your one-track view of the situation.

A recent Forbes study ranked Illinois 44th just ahead of Michigan and 10 spots behind Ohio.

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/9/06beststates_The-Best-States-For-Business_Rank_2.html

5 of the top 10 are in the south.

And in your study 1 of the top 20 for quality of living are in the South. There are a variety of ways to govern a state, and a variety of motivations for people to reside where they do.

[arbeiter]

Yawn. Many of these holy grail southern cities are becoming unliveable very fast. And very expensive, fast.

[Rusty van Reddick]

Alabama and Mississippi are nothing at all like North Carolina or Georgia. Alabama and Mississippi are, compared to the rest of the south and even the US average, simply not growing, and they are monocultural places with poor whites, poorer blacks and nothing else. No immigration, little diversity, lots and lots of poverty. "The South" is not monolithic.

[Sulley]

I bet if Alabama was covered in hair you'd like it.

Actually, it has about the 10th fastest growing economy in the nation right now...

[LSyd]

Alabama and Mississippi are nothing at all like North Carolina or Georgia. Alabama and Mississippi are, compared to the rest of the south and even the US average, simply not growing, and they are monocultural places with poor whites, poorer blacks and nothing else. No immigration, little diversity, lots and lots of poverty. "The South" is not monolithic.

:rolleyes: :koko: :shrug:

way to talk out of your ass again..."poor whites, poorer blacks..." there's two cultures, making it not monocultural. not everyone is poor.
there's plenty of hispanic immigration (i passed through several small towns where the downtown was largely hispanic business.) and that's not even going into the blocks of birmingham with conglomerates of asian stores.
there's not as much (maybe nowhere as much) growth in LA or MS as AL, and not as much in AL as most of the rest of the south, but there's still growth.

-

[Lakelander]

It will be interesting to see if the south will continue to develop in the "sun-belt" style way (car oriented, mid sized cities, etc.) or whether some mega-cities will emerge that will potentially rival northern cities like nyc, chicago, and boston in density.

Miami is well on its way to doing just that.

[Marcu]

And in your study 1 of the top 20 for quality of living are in the South. There are a variety of ways to govern a state, and a variety of motivations for people to reside where they do.

Just talking about the money. Corporate directors could care less about quality of living since they themselves will always have a high quality of living.

[Navin]

Just talking about the money. Corporate directors could care less about quality of living since they themselves will always have a high quality of living.

I agree*. And I'm talking about your comment that Illinois or other rustbelt states are run by "irrational politicians". As though the first goal of governing should be the business climate. Business-first, laissez-faire is not exactly wowing us with its results (e.g. unnamed Southern states) nor its sustainability.


*But it's still not that straightforward. Generally is a director's quality of living as high in Fayetteville as in Chicago? Forbes would say no.

[Marcu]

I agree*. And I'm talking about your comment that Illinois or other rustbelt states are run by "irrational politicians". As though the first goal of governing should be the business climate. Business-first, laissez-faire is not exactly wowing us with its results (e.g. unnamed Southern states) nor its sustainability.




State politicians should certainly balance priorities but when corporate leaders hear proposals like that of the Illinois governor (discussed here (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=126873)), they get scared and run off to Dallas. The proposal may not pass, but the mere fact that it's being proposed shows that some day it might.

*But it's still not that straightforward. Generally is a director's quality of living as high in Fayetteville as in Chicago? Forbes would say no

Fayetteville no but a city the size of Dallas or Charlotte...well than it gets close. Especially for 60 and over execs that just want a big lot and a big house.

[austin356]

Alabama and Mississippi are nothing at all like North Carolina or Georgia. Alabama and Mississippi are, compared to the rest of the south and even the US average, simply not growing, and they are monocultural places with poor whites, poorer blacks and nothing else. No immigration, little diversity, lots and lots of poverty. "The South" is not monolithic.




your playing off the stereotypical image, which ended for Alabama beginning in the early 90s.

-For instance, last time I was in Birmingham I went to a Lebanese Market with real middle eastern people (in AL:omg: )
-Alabama's unemployment rate is at 3.3% and has 15 projects under current works that will bring in at least a 50,000 jobs direct jobs and jobs with supporting industries.
-Alabama's Universities are expanding a very fast pace (another 100m investment at UA just announced the other day) to help enroll more minority students and student overflows from Texas, FL, and ATL. This is really creating a knowledge boost in the Tuscaloosa and Auburn areas.
-Alabama population growth once relatively small is now gaining steam and is among the faster growing states in the nation
-Mobile, which has been overlooked for the last half century, is finally attempting to gain some momentum, and could be one of the nation's hottest mid-sized (400k-1m) metros between 2010-2020.


Alabama is by no means shaping up to be a High-Tech SF global powerhouse, but it will be one of the best states for a middle class American to live in, in the near future.

[PhillyRising]

Expect more Illinoisians to head down south for jobs, lower cost of living, and slightly less irrational politicians.

You mean like Newt Gingrich, Trent Lott, Tom DeLay and the rest of those southern irrational politicians?

I was just in Tampa...got home yesterday. Other than the fact it was warm and sunny...I didn't see one reason to move there. I'll take a Northeast Corridor City over a Sunbelt Sprawler any day of the week. I'm glad to be home even if it's cold outside. The North will rise again!

[Crawford]

Miami is well on its way to doing just that.

What? Where?

I love Miami, but South Beach is the only major pedestrian-friendly neighborhood. Nobody who isn't poor would dream of living in Miami without a car.

Those huge new towers downtown or in places like Aventura or Sunny Isles are impressive but they aren't functionally urban. Imagine living in Sunny Isles without a car!

[Crawford]

your playing off the stereotypical image, which ended for Alabama beginning in the early 90s.

Alabama is by no means shaping up to be a High-Tech SF global powerhouse, but it will be one of the best states for a middle class American to live in, in the near future.

Alabama's schools are terrible. How can Alabama be one of the best states for the middle class when the state ranks 49th or 50th in virtually every measure of school performance?

Even secondary public education is relatively weak. Neither Alabama nor Auburn can compare to peer schools in nearby states (Texas, Florida, Georgia, North Carolina, etc.)

[Marcu]

Alabama's schools are terrible. How can Alabama be one of the best states for the middle class when the state ranks 49th or 50th in virtually every measure of school performance?



Well technically it can have good schools for the middle class and still rank 49th so long as the poor (say the bottom 20%) are really underperforming.

[PhillyRising]

perhaps not in density but the city of houston is projected to gain another million residents within the next 20 years and a few more million in the 'burbs.


Yeah...and the city will probably over a 1,000 square miles too. :yuck:

[JManc]

Yeah...and the city will probably over a 1,000 square miles too. :yuck:

more leg room i guess. :shrug:

[bobdreamz]

Alabama's schools are terrible. How can Alabama be one of the best states for the middle class when the state ranks 49th or 50th in virtually every measure of school performance?

Even secondary public education is relatively weak. Neither Alabama nor Auburn can compare to peer schools in nearby states (Texas, Florida, Georgia, North Carolina, etc.)

are you confusing Sunny Isles with Aventura?.....Sunny Isles is walkable just like most of the beach is.

[Evergrey]

:sly:

lol that is certainly one of the more bizarre comments i've read on this forum.

well, it does sound bizarre... but it has a kernal of truth to it... here in the Pittsburgh area... where 99.9 percent of the land is hilly... we've had trouble adjusting to the post-industrial sprawl-fueled economy in part due to our topography... there are few large flat areas for warehouse distribution centers, interstate beltways, light manufacturing parks, etc.... it's much more expensive to develop land here than in say... Central Ohio... and despite the many great intangibles of living in hilly country... it has had a real prohibitive affect on economic activity in the region.

[PhillyRising]

well, it does sound bizarre... but it has a kernal of truth to it... here in the Pittsburgh area... where 99.9 percent of the land is hilly... we've had trouble adjusting to the post-industrial sprawl-fueled economy in part due to our topography... there are few large flat areas for warehouse distribution centers, interstate beltways, light manufacturing parks, etc.... it's much more expensive to develop land here than in say... Central Ohio... and despite the many great intangibles of living in hilly country... it has had a real prohibitive affect on economic activity in the region.

In the end...it's still a blessing. While in Tampa this week...I couldn't get over the miles of ugliness of warehouses...titty bars...sprawly shopping centers...rundown industrial areas....it was depressing. Thank God it was warm.

[Evergrey]

In the end...it's still a blessing. While in Tampa this week...I couldn't get over the miles of ugliness of warehouses...titty bars...sprawly shopping centers...rundown industrial areas....it was depressing. Thank God it was warm.

I agree... the hills are a blessing... and now that we're developing significant "knowledge-based" industries... they serve as a "quality of life" incentive due to recreational and aesthetic reasons... I would never give my hills away... but I recognize they put us at a competitive advantage over the last 50 years of the national "sprawl economy".

[BG918]

Some interesting comments on this thread. The South is indeed growing at a fast rate and cities like Houston, Dallas, Atlanta, and Miami are definitely major U.S. mega-cities on par with the likes of Boston, Philadelphia, Seattle, San Francisco, maybe even Chicago in terms of their importance and growth potential. I think Houston and Atlanta are poised to even takeover a lot of the national importance of those aforementioned cities. Definitely a huge change from less than 50 years ago. You also have a slew of fast growing mid-major cities in the South like Austin, San Antonio, Nashville, Memphis, Tampa, Jacksonville, Orlando, and Charlotte and almost-mid-majors like Oklahoma City, Birmingham, and Raleigh.

[brickell]

In the end...it's still a blessing. While in Tampa this week...I couldn't get over the miles of ugliness of warehouses...titty bars...sprawly shopping centers...rundown industrial areas....it was depressing. Thank God it was warm.

I used to think you were halfway intelligent but your Florida and Sunbelt bashing is bordering on Chicago103-esque obsession now. Someone from Philly is complaining about rundown industrial areas? For shame.

[BnaBreaker]

I used to think you were halfway intelligent but your Florida and Sunbelt bashing is bordering on Chicago103-esque obsession now. Someone from Philly is complaining about rundown industrial areas? For shame.

Really though, what about his characterization of Tampa is inaccurate? Obviously it's not just Tampa that can be described this way, but I personally agree with him in principle at least.

BTW Evergrey, I definitely agree with you, I just don't think that is what he was attempting to address. Even still though, i'd rather live in Pittsburgh than anywhere in the sunbelt save a few select cities.

[Great_Hizzy]

I used to think you were halfway intelligent but your Florida and Sunbelt bashing is bordering on Chicago103-esque obsession now. Someone from Philly is complaining about rundown industrial areas? For shame.

Oh, contraire, Brick. If you read this forum the way I do, it's not shameful, it's entertaining. You feel me? ;)

[PhillyRising]

I used to think you were halfway intelligent but your Florida and Sunbelt bashing is bordering on Chicago103-esque obsession now. Someone from Philly is complaining about rundown industrial areas? For shame.

What did I say that wasn't the truth? Everything along US 41 and FL 60 is ugly and rundown in that part of Tampa. We are forcefed the message that the SunBelt is new and sanitized for your protection when in fact it can be just as scummy as areas up here. You don't seem to take criticism of your state very well yet I bet you wouldn't think twice to point out our warts.

[Marcu]

What did I say that wasn't the truth? Everything along US 41 and FL 60 is ugly and rundown in that part of Tampa. We are forcefed the message that the SunBelt is new and sanitized for your protection when in fact it can be just as scummy as areas up here. You don't seem to take criticism of your state very well yet I bet you wouldn't think twice to point out our warts.

I don't think anyone argues it's totally sanitized. Just that it's growing faster. And you surely can understand why he'd be offended by your comment when you frame it in a "haha I'd never live in your city" way.

[brickell]

What did I say that wasn't the truth? Everything along US 41 and FL 60 is ugly and rundown in that part of Tampa. We are forcefed the message that the SunBelt is new and sanitized for your protection when in fact it can be just as scummy as areas up here. You don't seem to take criticism of your state very well yet I bet you wouldn't think twice to point out our warts.


First, I'm not going to turn this into a city v city as you seem to want to. I love Philly, run down industrial areas and all. I'll probably go back for work in a couple of months and I can't wait.

Secondly, who's forcefeeding you anything? Tampa vies with Jacksonville for being Florida's most industrial cities. Yes it does have a lot of run down, dirty areas. I'm not a big fan of it, and that's why I don't live there. But to say that is all there is a gross mis-simplication and you know that.

Mabe you suffer from a sort of 'Paris Symdrome' for the South.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_syndrome

[Frisco_Zig]

And warmer. I look forward to the day I can move to Dallas, or San Antonio. It's like the affordable California.

no offense meant here but as a Californian, born and bred, I found San Antonio to be nothing like California

Don't get me wrong I liked San Antonio (though less than Austin). My friend lived in a the back of a property in an old mansion section that had seen better days but to be honest having never been outside of the West and East coasts it was actually eye opening.

[PhillyRising]

Secondly, who's forcefeeding you anything? Tampa vies with Jacksonville for being Florida's most industrial cities. Yes it does have a lot of run down, dirty areas. I'm not a big fan of it, and that's why I don't live there. But to say that is all there is a gross mis-simplication and you know that.


Where did I say that is all there is??? All I said there was alot of that in that one area which is where I had to spend most of my time on my business trip. It's a fairly large area too and to see the same stuff over and over was rather startling to me. Every place in the country has it's good and bad and no place is so superior over the next. I can give you a list of every con about the Philly area if that will make you feel better.

[holladay]

the south circa 2007: goodbye economic blues, hello loss of place

[LuckyTrix]

I lived in Tampa for a shade under 10 years and while I don't want to move back, I do find the assessment innacurate. It's like me pointing out Citrus Park and saying that the whole city is like that.

"ugliness of warehouses...titty bars...sprawly shopping centers...rundown industrial areas" That's like every major city I've ever seen. I'd also like to mention that while you guys don't seem to like Tampa, it's basically your Northeastern brethren that are moving to this oh so dreadful state.

"All I said there was alot of that in that one area which is where I had to spend most of my time on my business trip." I would never characterize a city by what you saw in a small area of it. I never looked at Nebraska and Florida Ave and said "oh, yup, that's Tampa."

[Teshadoh]

It's completely disingenuous to base a whole city's character on specific locales. NYC is not all like Manhattan, Detroit is not all like (insert stereotypical bombed out ghetto comment) & Tampa is clearly not all like the worse sections mentioned.

Yet... there is a huge number of depressing areas of Tampa that do meet that specification. Yet - there is Hyde Park, one of the most aesthetically pleasing neighborhoods in the nation.

[PhillyRising]

I lived in Tampa for a shade under 10 years and while I don't want to move back, I do find the assessment innacurate. It's like me pointing out Citrus Park and saying that the whole city is like that.

"ugliness of warehouses...titty bars...sprawly shopping centers...rundown industrial areas" That's like every major city I've ever seen. I'd also like to mention that while you guys don't seem to like Tampa, it's basically your Northeastern brethren that are moving to this oh so dreadful state.

"All I said there was alot of that in that one area which is where I had to spend most of my time on my business trip." I would never characterize a city by what you saw in a small area of it. I never looked at Nebraska and Florida Ave and said "oh, yup, that's Tampa."

I didn't say the whole city was like that but you have to admit there is a plethora of booby bars there that you just don't see in most towns. Not that there is anything wrong with that...even being gay I like looking at boobs but their presence can blight a neighborhood. If that's all visitors see everywhere they turn....they aren't going to be that impressed.

You have to be from up here to understand why some of us get so touchy. Our cities have to fight a stigma that isn't fair. If something bad happens up North...that event sticks to that city's rep like glue. If something bad happens down south....people overlook it and still hold those towns in a higher regard. Atlanta is one of the most dangerous cities in the country but most people do not regard the city in that manner. Philadelphia can't shake the whole snow balls at Santa Claus by the national media even though it happened in 1968. How often is Cleveland known as the city where the river caught on fire or the "Mistake By The Lake". When these things keep getting reinforced in people's minds....these cities can't fight it now matter how much has changed. I bet people who have never been to Pittsburgh think that the city is an industrial wasteland when it one of the most beautiful and livable cities in America. Houston and Phoenix could have miles of blight but they will still be considered desirable places to move to because of weather and housing costs. When Miami was hit with all the drug violence in the 80's...what do they do....make a show about it that makes the place still look sexy as hell. Put that in Philly and you get bombed out rowhomes on TV. So...when I go south...I do tend to look for the bad stuff in each town because I already know about the good things because that's all we hear about.

[shanthemanatl]

I didn't say the whole city was like that but you have to admit there is a plethora of booby bars there that you just don't see in most towns. Not that there is anything wrong with that...even being gay I like looking at boobs but their presence can blight a neighborhood. If that's all visitors see everywhere they turn....they aren't going to be that impressed.

You have to be from up here to understand why some of us get so touchy. Our cities have to fight a stigma that isn't fair. If something bad happens up North...that event sticks to that city's rep like glue. If something bad happens down south....people overlook it and still hold those towns in a higher regard. Atlanta is one of the most dangerous cities in the country but most people do not regard the city in that manner. Philadelphia can't shake the whole snow balls at Santa Claus by the national media even though it happened in 1968. How often is Cleveland known as the city where the river caught on fire or the "Mistake By The Lake". When these things keep getting reinforced in people's minds....these cities can't fight it now matter how much has changed. I bet people who have never been to Pittsburgh think that the city is an industrial wasteland when it one of the most beautiful and livable cities in America. Houston and Phoenix could have miles of blight but they will still be considered desirable places to move to because of weather and housing costs. When Miami was hit with all the drug violence in the 80's...what do they do....make a show about it that makes the place still look sexy as hell. Put that in Philly and you get bombed out rowhomes on TV. So...when I go south...I do tend to look for the bad stuff in each town because I already know about the good things because that's all we hear about.

Your cities have to fight a stigma that isn't fair?

And the South doesn't?

I think those of us who are native Southerners could talk all day about fighting unfair, inaccurate, and ill-informed stigmas and stereotypes.

[holladay]

some of y'all just gotta let go of your inferiority complexes

[dimondpark]

The South has its great selling points definitely, not my cup 'a tea as far as a place to live, but I always have a great time in Houston visiting relatives.

[BnaBreaker]

some of y'all just gotta let go of your inferiority complexes

:cheers:

[JManc]

every city has good areas and shitty areas. houston, for example, has some amazing and beautiful neighborhoods and then some areas that look like they belong in a 3rd world country.

[PhillyRising]

Your cities have to fight a stigma that isn't fair?

And the South doesn't?

I think those of us who are native Southerners could talk all day about fighting unfair, inaccurate, and ill-informed stigmas and stereotypes.

I agree that the south has issues from the past that people still identify with today as still being the norm...but is the stigma you face keeping people from considering to move there? Again...warm weather, job growth and less costly housing trumps anything you have to deal with...people are still moving down no matter how many Bubba's they think live down there. What I find odd is that the most interesting cities down south...Savannah and Charleston...never had the explosive growth. Maybe that is a blessing in disguise.

[LuckyTrix]

I didn't say the whole city was like that but you have to admit there is a plethora of booby bars there that you just don't see in most towns. Not that there is anything wrong with that...even being gay I like looking at boobs but their presence can blight a neighborhood. If that's all visitors see everywhere they turn....they aren't going to be that impressed.

You have to be from up here to understand why some of us get so touchy. Our cities have to fight a stigma that isn't fair. If something bad happens up North...that event sticks to that city's rep like glue. If something bad happens down south....people overlook it and still hold those towns in a higher regard. Atlanta is one of the most dangerous cities in the country but most people do not regard the city in that manner. Philadelphia can't shake the whole snow balls at Santa Claus by the national media even though it happened in 1968. How often is Cleveland known as the city where the river caught on fire or the "Mistake By The Lake". When these things keep getting reinforced in people's minds....these cities can't fight it now matter how much has changed. I bet people who have never been to Pittsburgh think that the city is an industrial wasteland when it one of the most beautiful and livable cities in America. Houston and Phoenix could have miles of blight but they will still be considered desirable places to move to because of weather and housing costs. When Miami was hit with all the drug violence in the 80's...what do they do....make a show about it that makes the place still look sexy as hell. Put that in Philly and you get bombed out rowhomes on TV. So...when I go south...I do tend to look for the bad stuff in each town because I already know about the good things because that's all we hear about.

I'd think that visitors of a city don't typically stay in one area.

I never thought of Philly or Pittsburgh like that and I don't hear people say things like that either. I'm not saying it doesn't happen. The South has an incredibly bad stigma though and always has. I hear this all the time, even here because many don't consider Florida "the South" so they make fun of the South.

I understand why you're upset. Everytime I tell someone I'm from Kansas City, Missouri, they say "Kansas? so you live on a farm and have cattle, say Missoura,etc" However, I don't badmouth other regions because I'm angry about someone talking about mine. I mean really, do what you want, it's cool as long as there are valid points. Yes, Tampa has a ton of strip clubs but it's not like that all over the city. I hear people talk about Jacksonville being a dump too but there's a whole nother half that's pretty nice to look at.

[zilfondel]

and with the 100+ weather.

But it's the humidity that's a killer. :haha:

[KB0679]

What I find odd is that the most interesting cities down south...Savannah and Charleston...never had the explosive growth. Maybe that is a blessing in disguise.

Charleston is on the cusp of such growth. The sprawl down that way is crazy.

[LuckyTrix]

But it's the humidity that's a killer. :haha: I actually can't breathe well if there isn't a decent amount of humidity.

[Chicago103]

[QUOTE=brickell;2681900]I used to think you were halfway intelligent but your Florida and Sunbelt bashing is bordering on Chicago103-esque obsession now.[QUOTE]

Am I the standard by which obsession is judged? The reason I am considered crazy is because my beliefs are outside of the mainstream and most of what I say is for dramatic effect that I know is exaggerated. The problem with many suburbanities is that when they say a city is dangerous and you will get shot many of them are bloody serious. Honestly PhillyNation just brings up the false beliefs people have about his city about being dangerous whereas people look at the sunbelt sprawl of the south like its the epitome of the american dream or something.

[RobMidtowner]

Atlanta is one of the most dangerous cities in the country...

Do you have any statistics to back up this claim?

[SLO]

ohh how the grass is always greener.......
there seems to be two types of responses, one being defensive of their city or area....and the other being the 'I cant wait to get the hell out, because its going to be so much better there'.
I am a Californian. Ive been in Texas 12 years. When I first came here I worked in an office with 2 Texans, 2 Californians, 3 from the Carolinas, and 1 Floridian. The common thread was that each person staunchly defended and was nostalgic to their home. Americans are highly mobile if they choose to be, we came to Texas for the typical reasons. Growth, cost of living, relatively clean cities etc. I cant say weather, although I hear that all the time (from Northerners). For the first 4-5 yrs we did not miss Cali one bit. Thats changed, for those of you who dont 'get' California, thats fine, stay put. For those of you in Cali, who want to move out, somewhere less expensive or more peaceful.....do it.
In the end where you live is a lifestyle choice, thats why I'll be back.....

[sprtsluvr8]

Do you have any statistics to back up this claim?

Doubtful...I'm pretty sure it is an example of a "stigma that isn't fair"...

[BnaBreaker]

Do you have any statistics to back up this claim?

In this study, Atlanta ranked as the seventh "most dangerous city" ranking ahead of Gary, and post-Katrina New Orleans.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-11-21-camden-crime_x.htm

It ranks differently depending on the methodology used, but it's always near the top. In anycase though, i'm sure most of the violence is confined to just a few of the neighborhoods, as it is in most cities.

[john3eblover]

cool article!

[holladay]

the methods are probably questionable, but if atlanta is #7 on the crime list then the country can't be doing that badly. atlanta is pretty tame IMO.

[RobMidtowner]

In this study, Atlanta ranked as the seventh "most dangerous city" ranking ahead of Gary, and post-Katrina New Orleans.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-11-21-camden-crime_x.htm

It ranks differently depending on the methodology used, but it's always near the top. In anycase though, i'm sure most of the violence is confined to just a few of the neighborhoods, as it is in most cities.

Eh whatever, that's old news...and probably not accurate anymore since crime has been declining in recent years.

[BnaBreaker]

Eh whatever, that's old news...and probably not accurate anymore since crime has been declining in recent years.

Well, you disagree with the notion that Atlanta is one of the nation's 'most dangerous cities', so what is your proof that it isn't? I've always felt safe in atlanta also, but you know.

[RobMidtowner]

Well, you disagree with the notion that Atlanta is one of the nation's 'most dangerous cities', so what is your proof that it isn't? I've always felt safe in atlanta also, but you know.

I don't disagree with the notion, but I'm not compelled by the evidence.

[sprtsluvr8]

"Dangerous" is completely relative...I've lived in Atlanta for 15 years and spent a big chunk of that time as a pedestrian downtown and midtown, and never once felt that I was in danger. Even if I had been a victim of crime, I wouldn't label the city dangerous, I would label the criminal dangerous...

Statistics can be calculated and presented for whatever outcome one may desire...I bet you could take the same numbers and work them another way to show Atlanta is a "safe" city. It's not wise to put any trust in a list like that one...

[totheskies]

This article is funny. I'm sure Arkansas is ranked well, but when you take the Walton kids, the Dillards, the Stephenses, and the Wards out, half of the state's income is gone. Don't be fooled, there is still lots of racism and difficulty in the south, but it has moved out to the burbs with all of the other SUVers.

[lawsond]

Expect more Illinoisians to head down south for jobs, lower cost of living, and slightly less irrational politicians.


less irrational politicians??
isn't that whole gang in the white house from the south?
isn't governor (double duh) blanco from the south?
don't they behead people in texas? or at least inject them with something?
isn't the south the hotbed for discussions on teaching that the world was created in six days?
"irrational" taxation is necessary to support infrastructure that doesn't depend on cars and pickup trucks to move people around.
cost of living is one thing.
but don't talk about sane politics and the southern u.s. states.

[Reverberation]

^^^

Don't forget....
the bill that provides immunizations against cervical Cancer (Texas),
pro-business incentives
etc.

* Clinton and Gore are both from the South,
* northerners are not ALL Athiests
* our Astronauts are southerners

I can go on and on but you seem to already have your mind made up.