South Korea’s Main Chinatown Lacks Only the Chinese

[James Bond Agent 007]

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/02/world/asia/02korea.html

March 2, 2007
South Korea’s Main Chinatown Lacks Only the Chinese
By NORIMITSU ONISHI

INCHON, South Korea — All was quiet in South Korea’s nonbustling Chinatown on a recent weekday. The lunchtime trickle was over, leaving the streets as deserted as they had been in the morning. The shiny arches, red lanterns and towering “Welcome to Chinatown” sign, meant to impress visitors, seemed instead to magnify the neighborhood’s inactivity.

Hoping to lure Chinese investors and some of the ever-growing number of Chinese tourists, the local government in Inchon, just west of Seoul, four years ago transformed a tiny dilapidated Chinese neighborhood into the country’s first Chinatown.

In no time, officials in half a dozen other cities across the country announced plans to build their own Chinatowns, but none have progressed very far because of a host of obstacles ranging from a lack of capital to, well, a shortage of Chinese residents.

Even here in Inchon, the site of a Chinese settlement dating from the 1880s, there are only about 400 Chinese. Most of the several thousand who had been here during the last century left when South Korea, ever wary of its neighbor’s designs, curtailed their ability to do business.

China’s rise, as well as the growing wealth of both Chinese and overseas Chinese, has given birth to new Chinatowns in places as varied as Las Vegas; Dubai; Belgrade, Serbia; and Dobroiesti, Romania. But for South Koreans, Chinatown plans are fraught with historical subtext.

Sitting on the rim of the Middle Kingdom, Koreans kept the Chinese out of their peninsula for centuries as immigrants from China set up thriving Chinatowns throughout Asia and the Western hemisphere. Even Japan, which has had strained relations with China in modern times, is home to three thriving Chinatowns.

“Korea is so close to China, not even an hour away by plane, so that makes it even odder that there has never been a full-fledged Chinatown,” said Yi Jung-hee, a South Korean expert on the overseas Chinese and the author of “A Country Without a Chinatown.”

“Korea had its own identity but always felt the need to protect itself from China,” added Mr. Yi, who is now an assistant professor at Kyoto Sosei University in Japan.

It was during Korea’s weakest period that China’s presence here reached its peak. In the 19th century, Japan and China fought to gain influence over the Korean Peninsula. They, along with Western nations, wrested concessions in Inchon, establishing settlements dedicated to commerce and not subject to Korean law.

Japan eventually colonized Korea, but Chinese merchants and laborers kept gravitating here; several thousand lived here by the end of Japanese rule in 1945.

In the decades that followed, Chinese residents ran businesses here and in the heart of Seoul. But in the 1960s and 1970s, under the military rule of Park Chung-hee, South Korea carried out policies intended to curb Chinese business activities and restrict land ownership, leading many Chinese to emigrate to Taiwan or the United States. Those remaining were effectively restricted to running Chinese restaurants, especially those that served chajangmyon, a popular noodle dish with a black-bean sauce.

“When I was growing up here, this was the darkest and most impoverished area of Korea because all the Chinese had left,” said Fan Yenchiang, 48, owner of Tae Rim Bong restaurant here.

By early this decade, only a couple hundred Chinese residents were left.

But by then, South Korea’s trade with China was booming, and Inchon officials were working on turning this historic footnote into a full-grown Chinatown. The authorities aggressively courted Chinese investors and invested about $18 million to put up signs and lampposts and to build a cultural center. Local governments in China donated a statue of Confucius, as well as three arches leading into the neighborhood.

“In Chinatowns across the world, merchants themselves band together to raise the funds to build arches,” said Chae Jin-kyu, a city planning official. “But this may be the only Chinatown in the world whose arches were donated by mainland China.”

The placement of one arch became knotted with the local history. Shandong Province asked that its arch be erected in a spot that was near the local government office, which also happened to be inside the former Japanese concession.

Some Korean residents objected that it was too close to the local government office; others saw the request as China’s backhanded retribution to Japan for earlier humiliations. The arch was put elsewhere.

“This was their idea of settling scores from a 100 years ago,” said Cho Woo-sung, 59, a newspaper columnist and a local historian. “This was just China trying to show off its new power.”

“This is not a real Chinatown,” Mr. Cho added. “It’s a creation of the local government — very shallow and artificial. What is this? Do Chinese come here? No. There’s nothing beautiful here. Plus the parking’s terrible.”

The Chinatown’s fitful progress reflects South Korea’s larger ambivalence toward a re-emerging China.

South Korea has been strengthening ties with its big neighbor in recent years. China is now South Korea’s No. 1 trading partner; South Koreans are studying Chinese in droves; many see eye to eye with China on how to handle problems like North Korea.

Still, South Korea’s embrace of China has been tempered by the historical fear that it could be suffocated. China’s claim in recent years to Koguryo — an ancient kingdom that straddled the Korean Peninsula and northeastern China, and which Koreans regard as an integral part of their history — sharpened those fears.

So how much of Korean territory are Koreans willing to cede for the sake of Chinatowns? Can you build a Chinatown without Chinese?

“Chinatowns should be where the Chinese live,” Sun Meiling, 40, a third-generation Chinese-Korean, said emphatically.

Ms. Sun, 40, who owns three shops here with her husband, had left South Korea to do business in China for a decade. “But in 2002 we heard that they were building a Chinatown in Inchon, so we decided to come back,” she said.

Mr. Fan, the restaurant owner, leads a local merchants’ association that has 73 members. It includes 50 new arrivals from China, though the number is only a small fraction of what the authorities had hoped to attract.

He said that obtaining visas was a big obstacle and that a mainland Chinese businessman’s plan to open a foot massage center had fallen through because he could not get visas for Chinese therapists.

“If this Chinatown is to become a real Chinatown,” he said, “we must bring back the people who left or bring in new people. How can we call this a Chinatown if there are no Chinese here?”

[pyropius]

"There is no Sanctuary? Does not compute. Does not compute." *explosions*

[Ronin]

“Korea is so close to China, not even an hour away by plane, so that makes it even odder that there has never been a full-fledged Chinatown,” said Yi Jung-hee, a South Korean expert on the overseas Chinese and the author of “A Country Without a Chinatown.”

Uh... duh, this guy answered his own question. Perhaps we should build an America town in Canada as well? Korean culture is not that much different from Chinese anyways, since that's where most of it came from. Besides, how would this attract Chinese tourists by serving up the same type of cuisine they could find done better at home?

[Rail Claimore]

Uh... duh, this guy answered his own question. Perhaps we should build an America town in Canada as well? Korean culture is not that much different from Chinese anyways, since that's where most of it came from. Besides, how would this attract Chinese tourists by serving up the same type of cuisine they could find done better at home?

I always said Korea is halfway between China and Japan in this and many other regards.

But as for hardly any Chinese in Korea, well... as they say, you are your DNA.

[Ronin]

Yeah, Korea almost looks like the child of China and Korea. The architecture and culture has bits and piece of both cultures mixed together. Well, that's what I've heard and seen, at least. I can't say that I've actually been there to witness it first hand. Besides, "Chinatown" is sooo vague. I wouldn't be surprised if the China they are referring to is the far north, where the cuisine is almost exactly like Korean to begin with. Perhaps a "Hong Kong town," with varied food, would fare much better.

[verictson]

I've been to China/Japan/Korea and I found all 3 to have their own distinct customs/culture. all 3 nations have histories that go centuries back. i'm sure culture within the 3 countries went back and forth.... each taking something from one another of course due to size some more then others, and especially with korea being in the middle would have the most characteristics of both. its amazing korea is even here with its own language and culture considering that they have china and japan as neighbors who kept knocking at their doors. and i also believe that today korea is a culture trade powerhouse in asia right now, theres been alot of articles about something called "halyu?" < i think thats how its spelled, where korean everything is becoming very popular especially amongst the younger generation, and has become what japan was in the 1990's

[Ronin]

Yeah, Halyu translates as the "Korean wave," and is in reference to their pop culture spreading all throughout Asia. I wouldn't go so far as saying it is nearly as big as Japan though. Japanese culture is wildly popular with the white kids and black kids though video games, anime, fashion etc., while they probably have not heard much about Korea.

Oh, and about the language thing... Koreans still learn Chinese writing in schools. It's still considered a prestige language, and used in government and in formal documents. The average person can probably write Chinese at a third grade level.

[verictson]

Yeah, Halyu translates as the "Korean wave," and is in reference to their pop culture spreading all throughout Asia. I wouldn't go so far as saying it is nearly as big as Japan though. Japanese culture is wildly popular with the white kids and black kids though video games, anime, fashion etc., while they probably have not heard much about Korea.

Oh, and about the language thing... Koreans still learn Chinese writing in schools. It's still considered a prestige language, and used in government and in formal documents. The average person can probably write Chinese at a third grade level.

Korean learning Chinese doesn't really mean much. Even here in the USA most school districts require at least 2 years of a foreign language to graduate. I think most of the people in (if i may use the term lightly) "top tier" nations learn foreign languages like in America alot of us learn Spanish because its a influential language thats the language of our neighboring country as well as China with Korea.

[Chicago3rd]

Yeah, Korea almost looks like the child of China and Korea. The architecture and culture has bits and piece of both cultures mixed together. Well, that's what I've heard and seen, at least. I can't say that I've actually been there to witness it first hand. Besides, "Chinatown" is sooo vague. I wouldn't be surprised if the China they are referring to is the far north, where the cuisine is almost exactly like Korean to begin with. Perhaps a "Hong Kong town," with varied food, would fare much better.

Yeah....just like what is all this fuss about the difference in cultures between Italian and Noreigian? It is all so close to being the same.

[Ronin]

Korean learning Chinese doesn't really mean much. Even here in the USA most school districts require at least 2 years of a foreign language to graduate. I think most of the people in (if i may use the term lightly) "top tier" nations learn foreign languages like in America alot of us learn Spanish because its a influential language thats the language of our neighboring country as well as China with Korea.

It's not the same as Spanish in the US because Chinese was the official written language of Korea before their own alphabet was created. They are both taught in elementary school, unlike Spanish, which is in HS, way past the cutoff point for decently learning a foreign language. Ask any average Korean person. They can read basic Chinese.

[verictson]

It's not the same as Spanish in the US because Chinese was the official written language of Korea before their own alphabet was created. They are both taught in elementary school, unlike Spanish, which is in HS, way past the cutoff point for decently learning a foreign language. Ask any average Korean person. They can read basic Chinese.

yeah i understand your point. Korea did use the Chinese written language however always had their own verbal language. You are making it sound like Korea is a state of China.. they are both unique - China is huge in comparison to a country the size of the state of indiana and for Korea to be still existing to this day with its own language and culture means it deserves respect especially after the constant invasions from china/japan/russia

[Ronin]

Yeah, I didn't mean to sound disrespectful towards the Korean culture in any way. It has stood the test of time, and is even making a name for itself now. As you said though, it is hard to break out of the shadows of such powerful neighbors.

[LouReed]

Yeah, Korea almost looks like the child of China and Korea. The architecture and culture has bits and piece of both cultures mixed together. Well, that's what I've heard and seen, at least. I can't say that I've actually been there to witness it first hand. Besides, "Chinatown" is sooo vague. I wouldn't be surprised if the China they are referring to is the far north, where the cuisine is almost exactly like Korean to begin with. Perhaps a "Hong Kong town," with varied food, would fare much better.


Korean cuisine is quite distinct from the food of all parts of China. They don't even like spicy food in northeastern China I think.

I wouldn't say Korean culture is sooo similar to Chinese culture. Vietnam gets that honor. A Chinese would be completey bewildered in South Korea with some of the living arrangements (low tables, sleeping on floor), bowing, and table ettiqutte, whereas it's almost the same with the Vietnamese lifestyle.

[edluva]

why do I keep on doubleposting dammit?

[edluva]

^They're all distinct. Vietnamese food, Mandarin cuisine, Cantonese food, Hakka, Sczechwan (sp?), and Korean food are all distinct. Same goes for what China's propagandizing government likes to call "dialects" - which are actually as mutually distinct as the romance languages.

"Chinese" is not a single nationality as much as a confederation of different cultures who weren't individually as fortunate as the Koreans and Vietnamese to have retained their sovereignty. Tibet, Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia, and the Korean-inhabited lands currently under Chinese rule remind us of that.

And much of what you associate with Korean (and Japanese) culture (low tables, bowing, etiquette, etc) was inherited from the revered Tang and Han Dynasties (China). But either way, Vietnam is no more closer to China culturally-speaking than Korea is, since as I've said above, China doesn't really represent a single culture as much as a group of many different ones into which Korean might easily have been annexed had history not run its present course. China is to its provinces what the Roman Empire would have been to the european nations.

And then throw in Confucianism and Chan (aka Zen) Buddhist influences to hash it all up for China/Japan/Korea/Vietnam again

[Ronin]

You are right about the separate states. At the very least, there should be three parts of China:

North, capital is Beijing
Central, capital is Shanghai
South, capital is HK

All three dislike each other anyways, and don't consider each other to be "brothers."

However, Canton was never part of any sovereignty if you go back to the "Kingdoms" era. It was basically a badlands full of "barbarians," and got annexed. The original Cantonese are thought of to be savages, but over the years most have been mixed with migrating Northerners, so in terms of the bloodlines, it's hard to say who is who. Culturally speaking though, all have maintained their identities.

[oilcan]

"Yeah, Korea almost looks like the child of China and Korea."

Yogi Berra



LMFAO

[LouReed]

My family are ethnic Chinese from Vietnam, so I'm very familiar with both Vietnamese and Chinese people. I know low tables, bowing, and sleeping on floors came from Tang China, but Chinese do not practice any of that anymore and a Chinese would be completely bewildered in Korea with those social protocols.

A Chinese (Han) wouldn't feel as lost in Vietnam on the other hand. I think about it quite often, and much to the dismay of alot of Chinese people, they are closer than the other two chinese influenced countries. The way they have meals, show off their wealth, body language, practice corruption, so on is closer.


^They're all distinct. Vietnamese food, Mandarin cuisine, Cantonese food, Hakka, Sczechwan (sp?), and Korean food are all distinct. Same goes for what China's propagandizing government likes to call "dialects" - which are actually as mutually distinct as the romance languages.

"Chinese" is not a single nationality as much as a confederation of different cultures who weren't individually as fortunate as the Koreans and Vietnamese to have retained their sovereignty. Tibet, Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia, and the Korean-inhabited lands currently under Chinese rule remind us of that.

And much of what you associate with Korean (and Japanese) culture (low tables, bowing, etiquette, etc) was inherited from the revered Tang and Han Dynasties (China). But either way, Vietnam is no more closer to China culturally-speaking than Korea is, since as I've said above, China doesn't really represent a single culture as much as a group of many different ones into which Korean might easily have been annexed had history not run its present course. China is to its provinces what the Roman Empire would have been to the european nations.

And then throw in Confucianism and Chan (aka Zen) Buddhist influences to hash it all up for China/Japan/Korea/Vietnam again

[edluva]

My family are ethnic Chinese from Vietnam, so I'm very familiar with both Vietnamese and Chinese people. I know low tables, bowing, and sleeping on floors came from Tang China, but Chinese do not practice any of that anymore and a Chinese would be completely bewildered in Korea with those social protocols.

A Chinese (Han) wouldn't feel as lost in Vietnam on the other hand. I think about it quite often, and much to the dismay of alot of Chinese people, they are closer than the other two Chinese influenced countries. The way they have meals, show off their wealth, body language, practice corruption, so on is closer.

but you'd have to specify which "Han" you're referring to (and mind you, Han is a fictionalized propaganda-race created by the successive dynastic regimes of China - there is no such thing as a "Han race"). Southerners of Guangzhou (from which most Vietnam-born Chinese descend) would readily agree with you while a Northerner from Shandong would strongly disagree, as some of the "dialects" from that region sound to the untrained ear, like Korean.

Mandarin, by the way, is influenced by the Ural-Altaic language family (Korean, Japanese, Mongolian, Turkic, Manchu) while Cantonese borrows significantly from Tai-Austronesian (Vietnamese, Cambodian, etc). Both are Sino-Tibetan, but they diverge into distinct languages based on these influences. Then you have those other curiously mutually-unintelligible "dialects" in between, such as Minnanese, Hakka, Jinhuai, Wu, etc.

And the mannerisms of Beijingers, though a subjective thing, are really quite different from Cantonese or Vietnamese any one looks at it - some would say, as different from the Cantonese as the Cantonese differ from the Vietnamese. Even the Cantonese will attest to this. You are probably well aware of the hot-headed stereotype to which Koreans and North Chinese are commonly attributed. It's just as easy to make this connection. To say Vietnamese are "more Chinese" than Koreans is to say Bulgarians are "more European" than Fins. You'd have to clarify what you meant by "European" (or Chinese)

To generalize China into a single umbrella culture would be nothing more than nationalism at the expense of objectivity. But anyways...

[Nutterbug]

Hoping to lure Chinese investors and some of the ever-growing number of Chinese tourists, the local government in Inchon, just west of Seoul, four years ago transformed a tiny dilapidated Chinese neighborhood into the country’s first Chinatown.
If they want to be in a Chinese environment, why the hell would they leave China in the first place?????

I always said Korea is halfway between China and Japan in this and many other regards.

But as for hardly any Chinese in Korea, well... as they say, you are your DNA.
I find they look more like a cross between Japanese and Mongolians.

[LouReed]

Han isn't a race, but I think it's an ethnic group with variations of course. But it's not as seeminglessly continuous as you seem to think. Someone in Shangdong or further north would still be able to better understand a Cantonese if speaking very slowly than Koreans who are only one hour away by plane from them.

Mandarin has altaic and mongolian influences but it's still a part of the sino tibetan language family with Hakka, Canto, Fujianese whatever. I'm more familar with mandarin, but if i hear a sentense in mandarin then the same sentence in canto after, the association clicks just like that.

I agree with what you said genetically. Chinese start looking more and more Korean or Viet looking as you get closer to those countries, but as far as living arrangements, style of celebrating holidays, bad taste, politics, Chinese and Viets are very close.

I'm not exactly a Viet sympathizer either. Like other ethnic Chinese from Vietnam, i was brought up to look down or be smug to Viets.







but you'd have to specify which "Han" you're referring to (and mind you, Han is a fictionalized propaganda-race created by the successive dynastic regimes of China - there is no such thing as a "Han race"). Southerners of Guangzhou (from which most Vietnam-born Chinese descend) would readily agree with you while a Northerner from Shandong would strongly disagree, as some of the "dialects" from that region sound to the untrained ear, like Korean.

Mandarin, by the way, is influenced by the Ural-Altaic language family (Korean, Japanese, Mongolian, Turkic, Manchu) while Cantonese borrows significantly from Tai-Austronesian (Vietnamese, Cambodian, etc). Both are Sino-Tibetan, but they diverge into distinct languages based on these influences. Then you have those other curiously mutually-unintelligible "dialects" in between, such as Minnanese, Hakka, Jinhuai, Wu, etc.

And the mannerisms of Beijingers, though a subjective thing, are really quite different from Cantonese or Vietnamese any one looks at it - some would say, as different from the Cantonese as the Cantonese differ from the Vietnamese. Even the Cantonese will attest to this. You are probably well aware of the hot-headed stereotype to which Koreans and North Chinese are commonly attributed. It's just as easy to make this connection. To say Vietnamese are "more Chinese" than Koreans is to say Bulgarians are "more European" than Fins. You'd have to clarify what you meant by "European" (or Chinese)

To generalize China into a single umbrella culture would be nothing more than nationalism at the expense of objectivity. But anyways...

[zilfondel]

Vietnam was, for a time, a colony of China. However, they eventually got pissed off at that arrangement, and now look what we got!

If I can remember correctly, Vietnam didn't gain independence until around 900? Then there was the whole period of colonialism under France.

[Kilgore Trout]

Han isn't a race, but I think it's an ethnic group with variations of course.

i certainly don't think han can be considered an ethnic group. cantonese, hakka, sichuanese --- these are ethnic groups. han chinese don't speak the same languages, they don't eat the same foods, they don't even have the same customs.

(historically, yes, the han can be considered an ethnicity compared to, say, mongolians, manchu or uyghurs. but in a modern-day context the different han cultural groups can probably considered distinct ethnicities. i think it's telling that cantonese people often refer to themselves as "tong people," not han people.)

It was basically a badlands full of "barbarians," and got annexed. The original Cantonese are thought of to be savages, but over the years most have been mixed with migrating Northerners, so in terms of the bloodlines, it's hard to say who is who.

actually, most cantonese are simply the descendants of migrants from northern china. same goes for the hakka, who came a bit later (hence their name).

[Ronin]

actually, most cantonese are simply the descendants of migrants from northern china. same goes for the hakka, who came a bit later (hence their name).

Well, yes, now they are, but the original Cantonese were almost the same as the original Vietnamese. Nowadays, it's pretty much all washed out, kind of like trying to find aboriginals in various countries.

[Ronin]

And yes, many of the customs now in use by Japanese and Korean, such as the low tables and bowing were originally from China. However, China somewhere along the line decided to stop doing them.

I would say that Vietnamese customs are similar to modern day Hong Kong, but not Mainland, since much of it got wiped out in the Cultural Revolution. For instance, take the New Year's celebrations now going on. From the meals to the red envelopes to the lion dancing, etc. I see Vietnamese people doing almost the exact same thing my family members from HK are doing. However, many people I know from the Mainland, when I see "Happy new year" to them, they don't even care... or even know. :haha:

[LouReed]

i certainly don't think han can be considered an ethnic group. cantonese, hakka, sichuanese --- these are ethnic groups. han chinese don't speak the same languages, they don't eat the same foods, they don't even have the same customs.

(historically, yes, the han can be considered an ethnicity compared to, say, mongolians, manchu or uyghurs. but in a modern-day context the different han cultural groups can probably considered distinct ethnicities. i think it's telling that cantonese people often refer to themselves as "tong people," not han people.

i dunno, i wouldn't go as far as to say they are seperate ethnic groups, Manchu, Tibetan, Uighur, Han are clear ethnic groups to me. the Han language groups have alot of threads connecting them together. Vietnamese or Koreans would not be considered Han even if they are a part of China now, not sure if that is clear... just like how tibetan and manchu are not Han.



actually, most cantonese are simply the descendants of migrants from northern china. same goes for the hakka, who came a bit later (hence their name).

i don't agree. most southerners have a good deal of Austronesian genes in them including your ke jia nu peng you.

[edluva]

i dunno, i wouldn't go as far as to say they are seperate ethnic groups, Manchu, Tibetan, Uighur, Han are clear ethnic groups to me. the Han language groups have alot of threads connecting them together. Vietnamese or Koreans would not be considered Han even if they are a part of China now, not sure if that is clear... just like how tibetan and manchu are not Han.



i don't agree. most southerners have a good deal of Austronesian genes in them including your ke jia nu peng you.

it's also interesting to note that ethnolinguists state that up to 70% of the Korean language consists of Sino-Korean loan-words. There clearly is a cultural gradation considering this fact. Ethnolinguists also argue that differences between what are commonly called "Chinese dialects" (and what they think should be considered separate languages) are equivalent to the linguistic gap between French and Spanish.

Genetically and culturally, you'll find a good deal of distance between the Northern Chinese (those living near or within Manchuria, say, Harbin?) and the Cantonese. And it's not all because of that enmity you're referring to. In some ways, Vietnamese culture mirrors "Chinese culture" - particularly Southern Chinese culture, and in other ways, Korean Culture mirrors that same pseudo umbrella-culture, particularly the Northern variation. That's how I see it. There's no monolithically unifying Chinese culture though. That's where I think you're wrong, and it's where most ethnologists agree with me.

[LouReed]

it's also interesting to note that ethnolinguists state that up to 70% of the Korean language consists of Sino-Korean loan-words. There clearly is a cultural gradation considering this fact. Ethnolinguists also argue that differences between what are commonly called "Chinese dialects" (and what they think should be considered separate languages) are equivalent to the linguistic gap between French and Spanish.

Genetically and culturally, you'll find a good deal of distance between the Northern Chinese (those living near or within Manchuria, say, Harbin?) and the Cantonese. And it's not all because of that enmity you're referring to. In some ways, Vietnamese culture mirrors "Chinese culture" - particularly Southern Chinese culture, and in other ways, Korean Culture mirrors that same pseudo umbrella-culture, particularly the Northern variation. That's how I see it. There's no monolithically unifying Chinese culture though. That's where I think you're wrong, and it's where most ethnologists agree with me.


And you don't think Vietnamese is any different? The language has a slew of Chinese loanwords, as much if not more than Korean. I understand Chinese dialects are different languages, but you should also remember we have an official language called Mandarin that actually did its job in my family.

Both my parents have roots in Guangdong, but my mother speaks Hakka and my dad speaks Teochew, but they do not know each others languages. That is why we are southern and southern looking yet they use Mandarin, not to mention Hanzi.

I'm not backing down from what I said earlier. A northern Mandarin speaking Dongbei or Shandong or whatever Chinese could listen to slowly spoken Canto and make out a good deal of the conversation. That's almost impossible with Korean. I have no idea where you got this "korean sounding northern accent" from unless you're talking about ethnic Koreans bordering North Korea. :yes:

They eat noodles and breads in North China whereas they eat rice in Korea. They use round metal spoons and metal chopsticks in Korea and you can't pick up your rice bowl, whereas both Viets and Chinese use wooden/plastic chopsticks and shove rice into their mouths at 10x/min :shrug: A Northern Chinese complaining about how his legs are falling asleep kneeling at a Korean table setting whilst getting stared at by Koreans for his eating habits.

What ways exactly do Koreans mirror Northern Chinese more?


I think a large justification of my claim is that Vietnam was influenced by China in more recent times compared to Korea and was actually colonized by China whereas the influence in Korea was largely the intellectual class enamoured by China and it filtered down.

Which is why modern Chinese and modern Vietnamese would have more similarities!! Compare the vietnamese traditional dress (ao dai) with the Chinese traditional dress (qipao) or how a Northern Chinese celebrates the new year compared to Viets and Koreans.

[Nutterbug]

Mandarin, by the way, is influenced by the Ural-Altaic language family (Korean, Japanese, Mongolian, Turkic, Manchu) while Cantonese borrows significantly from Tai-Austronesian (Vietnamese, Cambodian, etc).
Actually, Korean and Japanese are isolate languages, though they may borrow elements from the Altaic group. Japanese may also borrow some Austronesian (Native Taiwanese, Pacific Islander) influences.

I think the term for the group that includes Vietnamese and Cambodias is Austro-Asiatic.

Genetically and culturally, you'll find a good deal of distance between the Northern Chinese (those living near or within Manchuria, say, Harbin?) and the Cantonese.
Wasn't Northeast Asia originally home to the Mongoloid race, and Southeast Asia home to the Australoid race? Aren't Southeast Asians today as we know them a blend of Mongoloids that spread from the north and the indigenous Australoids?

[vid]

A lot of people think Chinese and Japanese are similar because of the symbols, but Japan actually had it's own writing system before it was influenced by the Chinese. You can tell them apart because Japanese has kana.

[LouReed]

A lot of people think Chinese and Japanese are similar because of the symbols, but Japan actually had it's own writing system before it was influenced by the Chinese. You can tell them apart because Japanese has kana.

hiragana and kana wasn't before Chinese influence, but way after Japanese used Chinese characters to write for centuries then decided to create a writing system more efficient with their language.

[Ronin]

There was NO Japanese writing before Chinese characters were imported. Even after that, kana came by much later.

[Ronin]

Korean has a lot of similiarities to Chinese food. For instance, the zazang noodles are basically the same as Chinese ja jiang mein. Heck, they even took the name. Also, in Japanese, ramen (lai mein) and sushi came from China.

[LouReed]

sushi is debated, but the japanese call ramen chinese food and same with koreans and jia jang myun.

[Ronin]

Anything with an original Chinese name in kanji came from China. Ramen (lai mein), sushi (so si), udon (wu dung), etc. are all Chinese words. The easy way to figure it out is the syllables. Also, on their menus, these items are sometimes listed in kana, but sometimes the original kanji. Of course, this is not taking into consideration that the cuisine in both countries has evolved over the years, and may be nothing like the previous incarnations.

[Kilgore Trout]

i don't agree. most southerners have a good deal of Austronesian genes in them including your ke jia nu peng you.

i don't doubt that... it has been more than a thousand years since the largest wave of tong dynasty people arrived in southern china, so it's inevitable that there has been a lot of mixing since then.

[edluva]

Actually, Korean and Japanese are isolate languages, though they may borrow elements from the Altaic group. Japanese may also borrow some Austronesian (Native Taiwanese, Pacific Islander) influences.

I think the term for the group that includes Vietnamese and Cambodias is Austro-Asiatic.


Wasn't Northeast Asia originally home to the Mongoloid race, and Southeast Asia home to the Australoid race? Aren't Southeast Asians today as we know them a blend of Mongoloids that spread from the north and the indigenous Australoids?


you're right about them being isolates. Sort of like Euskeran in Basque country, or Armenian, but that doesn't simultaneously prevent them from classification as Altaic or proto-Altaic. Armenian is considered both an isolate, and a distant subset of the Indo-European family.

Peking man is the archetypical mongoloid, while Java man is the SE Asian archetype. Features of both Cromagnon-era (Java, Peking, Neanderthal) species can still be seen in modern Indonesians and NE Asians, with SE Asians of course having inherited mongoloid genes from successive northern migrations as well.

So according to what I understand from Anthro 101, the multiregional hypothesis states that these groups evolved separately from common ancient precursors, and then blended with successive waves from africa and/or participated in type of genetic drift as described above (about mongoloid genes drifting to SE asia). There is no controversy of a genetic gradation from NE Asia southwards.


LouReed - I am fluent in Mandarin (natively), and I couldn't understand enough Cantonese to be of practical use, no matter how slowly it's spoken. The fact that your parents, and most other people in China, know Mandarin is only one of convenience and very recent politics- it signifies nothing regarding N. China's historic anthropological ties to Vietnam or Canton. The only thing that justifies categorization of Mandarin or Cantonese as dialects are their common written language, which is a fact inherited by centuries of warfare and imperialism. Your anecdotal examples of the similarities between Northern Chinese "culture" and Vietnamese are weak - I don't know how the material from which respective people manufacture chopsticks has much to do with cultural affinity. I can just as well argue that rice staples and shrimp are much more ingrained in Southern Chinese and Vietnamese cuisine than in North Chinese or Korean (who have traditionally used much more wheat), but like your anecdotes, that's far too superficial to be of any use.

There is no controversy that Japanese and Korean cultures have lots of similarities while maintaing their distinct differnces, but when it comes to dissecting China's cultures for the sake of unbiased comparison, personal agendas begin to surface. And people wonder why China's tumultuous past is so hard to shake. Overall, I'm disagreeing with your nationalistic tendency to group all Chinese cultures as one, when it's obvious you're choosing to overlook the differences that make each one distinct as much as linked by common histories. Perhaps by personalizing this issue, you wish to be associated with North China's history more than is true? If only to identify closer to the Cantonese movies about Mandarin China you probably loved watching so much as a child? ;)

[LouReed]

LouReed - I am fluent in Mandarin (natively), and I couldn't understand enough Cantonese to be of practical use, no matter how slowly it's spoken. The fact that your parents, and most other people in China, know Mandarin is only one of convenience and very recent politics- it signifies nothing regarding N. China's historic anthropological ties to Vietnam or Canton. The only thing that justifies categorization of Mandarin or Cantonese as dialects are their common written language, which is a fact inherited by centuries of warfare and imperialism. Your anecdotal examples of the similarities between Northern Chinese "culture" and Vietnamese are weak - I don't know how the material from which respective people manufacture chopsticks has much to do with cultural affinity. I can just as well argue that rice staples and shrimp are much more ingrained in Southern Chinese and Vietnamese cuisine than in North Chinese or Korean (who have traditionally used much more wheat), but like your anecdotes, that's far too superficial to be of any use.

There is no controversy that Japanese and Korean cultures have lots of similarities while maintaing their distinct differnces, but when it comes to dissecting China's cultures for the sake of unbiased comparison, personal agendas begin to surface. And people wonder why China's tumultuous past is so hard to shake. Overall, I'm disagreeing with your nationalistic tendency to group all Chinese cultures as one, when it's obvious you're choosing to overlook the differences that make each one distinct as much as linked by common histories. Perhaps by personalizing this issue, you wish to be associated with North China's history more than is true? If only to identify closer to the Cantonese movies about Mandarin China you probably loved watching so much as a child? ;)


"I can just as well argue that rice staples and shrimp are much more ingrained in Southern Chinese and Vietnamese cuisine than in North Chinese or Korean (who have traditionally used much more wheat), but like your anecdotes, that's far too superficial to be of any use. "

no, not really because rice and shrimp/seafood plays a huge part of the Korean diet more than wheat...


i don't see how these anecdotes are too shallow for you and i dunno know what that even means exactly. most people in Northern China and elsewhere in the world are shallow and they would personally feel a stronger bond to another group if they did share similar shallow qualities like dining ettique, traditional dress, manner of celebrating Chinese New Year and holidays.

Northern Chinese are not all antropogists. They would feel perplexed if not offended if a Korean gave them a white envelope as part of Korean tradition on new years whereas Vietnamese give hong baos, do lion/dragon dances. Chinese, including northerners, can be more commonly found in a Vietnamese restaurant than a Korean one in North America.

although putonghua is a very recent phenemon, it doesn't mean it's not real. we hire all types of Chinese at my family's restaurant, and Mandarin is the binding agent. when requesting my cantonese employees to do something, i say it in Mandarin, and they look off into space for a second before repeating it in Cantonese and they understand, and the different language groups are getting closer and closer. Shanghainese, Teochew, Fujianese, Hakka are dying in China and getting replaced by Mandarin or Mandarin and Cantonese with the case of the Guangdong groups. It's only the Cantonese who are able to hold it off, and you can easily get around in Guangzhou with only knowledge of Mandarin.

now you tell me some reasons why you think Northern Chinese are closer to Koreans than Southern Chinese or Vietnamese besides this mythical north Chinese Korean sounding accent that doesn't exist, how Koreans eat like Northern Chinese which isn't true, how northerners and koreans get mad quickly or this 70% Chinese loans words in the Korean language in which Vietnamese is no different. Can you give me anything?

you should know that Vietnamese still continues to borrow Chinese words from Mandarin for political/scientific words whereas that process has ended long ago for Korean. oh yeah, the Chinese loan words in Korean sound closer to Cantonese than Mandarin because Korean absorbed those words during the Tang dynasty and Cantonese is closest to Tang era Chinese.

No, I didn't watch Cantonese movies about Northern China as a child. :yes:

[vid]

hiragana and kana wasn't before Chinese influence, but way after Japanese used Chinese characters to write for centuries then decided to create a writing system more efficient with their language.

I didn't say that Kana was before the Chinese influence. I said the presence of Kana in Japanese script is how you can tell it apart from Chinese script.

[LouReed]

I didn't say that Kana was before the Chinese influence.

yes you did in the your post above. maybe i'm going crazy??

[Rail Claimore]

Japanese and Korean are very obviously related to anyone who knows more than a few words of both. But the two themselves almost unarguably form their own isolate family. The only relation both languages have to Chinese is a lot of borrowed vocabulary, and much of the borrowed Chinese vocabulary in Japanese was passed through Korea. So often, "on-yomi" of kanji are a bastardized form of Korean pronounciation, which in itself is a bastardized form of the original Chinese pronounciation, whichever dialect it originated from.

[vid]

No, I said they had their own writing system, but that writing system wasn't Kana, it was something else. I read something about it before.

[Ronin]

Here is the definition of Kanji. There was some type of writing used before Kanji, but it was also based on Chinese.

Chinese characters came to Japan from China with Kanji articles on which they are written. Their early instances include a gold seal discovered in 1748, which was identified as the one given by the emperor of the Eastern Han Dynasty in 57 CE. It is not clear when Japanese people started to command Classical Chinese by themselves. At first documents were probably written by Chinese immigrants. For example, the diplomatic correspondence from King Bu of Wa to Emperor Shun of the Song Dynasty in 478 has been praised for its skillful use of allusion. Later, groups of people called fuhito were organized under the monarch to read and write Classical Chinese. From the 6th century onwards, Chinese documents written in Japan tended to show interference from Japanese. This suggests the wide acceptance of Chinese characters in Japan.

When first introduced, texts were written in the Chinese language and would have been read as such. Over time, however, a system known as kanbun (漢文) emerged, essentially using Chinese text with diacritical marks to allow Japanese speakers to read the characters in accordance with the rules of Japanese grammar.

The Japanese language itself had no written form at the time. A writing system called man'yōgana (used in the ancient poetry anthology Man'yōshū) evolved that used a limited set of Chinese characters for their sound, rather than for their meaning.

[vid]

Well then that is what I was referencing. I didn't know it was based on Chinese as well. Thanks for clearing it up. :)

[Steve de Ohio]

On-yomi aren't bastardized forms of Korean. Both the Korean/Japanese pronunciations of Hanja/Kanji were taken from Chinese, i.e. the Japanese form wasn't derived from Korean. They both "bastardized" pronunciations from Chinese without much thought to how each other did it. Korean pronunciation is not a stepping stone from Chinese to Japanese; it's a totally seperate but often parallel take on the Chinese pronunciation from the time the word was borrowed.