Down with Air Canada!

[Only The Lonely..]

As Canadians, why do we protect Air Canada's monopoly when they clearly do not care at all about Canada?


Air Canada looking to move 700 jobs
JAN 25 2007 06:10 AM

CJOB News has learned the Doer government is negotiating with Air Canada to save 700 maintenance jobs here in Winnipeg.
The subsidiary of Air Canada does maintenance work for the airline, and 100 other customers.

The airline is expected to transfer the work to a newly-purchased firm in El Salvador, where labour costs are cheaper.

The Doer government is in talks with the airline to transfer other operations here.

Competitiveness, Training and Trade Minister Scott Smith says Air Canada has been open with the province, and adds his government told the airline right from the start that they're very willing to work on its needs.

There are millions of dollars of training incentives already on table.

**More on the story after 9 a.m on Richard Cloutier Reports.**

CJOB's Richard Cloutier reporting

[Only The Lonely..]

It's not a coincidence that frequent flyers on www.airlinequality.com refer to Air Canada as "Mapleflot" and "Scare Canada". This mediocre company thrives on predatory pricing, diminished service, and a near-monopoly thanks to a seemingly pre-deregulatory relationship with the feds. A plastic pillow and blanket now cost passengers $2 and sandwiches on a transcon from Halifax to Vancouver cost $5. It also now costs $20 to speak with an actual human service representative at Air Canada's 1-866 help desk. Meanwhile, Air Canada continues to post one of the highest profit margins of any North American carrier.

Here's an example of typical AC customer testimony: "In 2002, I was very surprised to learn that Air Canada had secretly reduced its frequent flier mileage claims to 50% of actual miles flown for all excursion (reduced) fare trips. And since January 1, 2002, this was further reduced to 35% of actual miles flown. Now, the kicker: this only applies to flights within Canada! To make sure, of course, that only Canadians get punished by Air Canada. I almost fell off my chair. So, to get proper full air miles on your Aeroplan, you will need to fork over the outrageous prices, like 2859 dollars for Montreal-Vancouver return. They might have saved themselves a lot of trouble by just plainly canceling the frequent flier plan altogether.

The Canadian press points out that full fare passengers are routinely getting bumped onto cheap no frills planes run by Tango. Also, as all Canadians know, we have ads for Air Canada flights Montreal-Toronto 99 dollars. Fine print: this is one way. About six kinds of fees and taxes to be added. Total fare for a return trip close to or over 400 dollars (January 2003). How about that for creative advertising? It is finally out in the open, thanks to commissioner Liette Lacroix Kenniff. Can we finally hope for a better climate, and stiff penalties for this corporate thief?

Fast forward to October 2006. In an effort to improve their air miles program, Air Canada decided to let all miles older than three years lapse. If you do not use the miles saved, then they disappear. What is interesting is that if you use Air Canada award miles, you still have to pay extra fees, typically hundreds of dollars on a transatlantic ticket. Taxes they call it. The calculation goes something like this: 15% government taxes on 0 is 270 dollars."

http://cg.scs.carleton.ca/~luc/aircanada.html

Here's an excerpt from a Globe & Mail article by Jeffrey Simpson titled "Air Canada doesn't give a damn. I'll fly WestJet":

"Air Canada fundamentally only cares about the country's largest cities. The rest don't count. Ask about Air Canada in Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Yukon or any of the Atlantic provinces.

Air Canada uses a plane on the Halifax-Sydney route that the Canadian International Development Agency wouldn't lease to an impoverished African country. It's about to change its Halifax-St. Johns-London flight so that Newfoundlanders will have to fly backward to Halifax before crossing the ocean. That will do wonders or the airline's popularity on the Rock,
but what choice do people there have?

Complain? Forget about it. The Milton/Brewer airline doesn't give a damn, except for the bottom line. Air Canada has such a dominant position in so many parts of Canada that it doesn't care.

Open skies -bring'em on. WestJet, you've got a new customer."

It's hilarious how this airline operates. They outsource Canadian jobs that pay a livable wage to third-world countries and continue to slash the quality and frequency of service in the name of "remaining competitive". Yet, the moment their position as Canada's dominant carrier is even slightly threatened, they whine to the government for bailouts and regulatory intervention. I mean, look at how Transport Canada allowed AC to pick apart the carcass of Canadian Airlines and essentially poach their Asian and South American routes rather than let American Airlines purchase a controlling stake in that company and save its employees. It's always just assumed that AC should and will maintain a monopoly at all costs. The Canadian government also ensures that AC has ample gate space at slot-restricted airports like London's Heathrow and Tokyo's Narita while alternate carriers like Westjet are simply shut out in the dark. Also look at how the Mulroney government furnished AC with an all new state-of-the-art Airbus fleet prior to "privatization" courtesy of taxpayer dollars. Where are the benefits for us subsidy-paying citizens (particularly when AC has zero regard for the average Canadian consumer and airline worker)?

Let's deregulate the Canadian air market and get some real competition up here! If Air Canada is as disinterested in domestic service as they appear, then we should have the option of flying other carriers such as Northwest, United, American, Continental, Southwest, Delta, Alaskan, Frontier, or US Airways on intra-Canadian flights. When faced with real competitors like the above, Air Canada would quickly realize the value of treating the Canadian flying public and workforce right! Again, the same could be said of our stagnant, dysfunctional banking industry as well.

[Only The Lonely..]

However, I should note that there have been several positive developments in response to Air Canada's fleecing of the Canadian public. For example, regional upstarts such as the Yukon Territory's Air North (revived by Mr. Stephen Mills et al.) are challenging Ac's dominance and the Yukon government itself is refusing to do business with airlines that practice predatory pricing (read: Air Canada). Here's an excerpt from the July-August 2002 edition of Indian Life magazine detailing the rise of Air North:

"Starting on June 7, two Boeing 737s bearing Air North logos are scheduled to fly daily from Whitehorse to Vancouver, Edmonton and Calgary, giving Yukon travelers their first alternative link to southern cities since Air Canada assumed control of the routes in 2000.

"It is an ambitious--some might say foolhardy--venture: Western Canada's north-south corridor is a best-kept secret of the airline industry, generating between $ 8-million and $10-million of profit annually for Air Canada, a recent government study shows.

"'People in all different sectors and industries in the Yukon and the general public really desire some alternative to Air Canada,' Mr. Mills says. 'They can see Air North as a good competitor. They can look upon it as something to be proud of.'

"[...]Messrs. Linklater, Sparling and Mills spotted an opportunity in Air Canada's handling of the Whitehorse-Vancouver link: Yukoners were growing frustrated with the national carrier; some complained bitterly about the scarcity of discounted seats and the $1,650 price tag on full-fare tickets. The griping crescendoed when Air Canada began feeding passengers cold sandwiches rather than hot meals during midday flights.

"'... It's cheaper to fly to Hawaii than it is to Vancouver. What's the rationale of that," asks Ernie Bourassa, the Mayor of Whitehorse, raising his arms. "It's all about competition. If you don't have competition, there's no reason for prices to be competitive.'

"Moreover, Air Canada was hubbing Alberta passengers through Vancouver rather than establishing direct flights, suggesting an untapped market in that province. When the Calgary Airport Authority asked Air Canada last year to consider a direct flight to Whitehorse, it was rebuffed, says Julien de Schutter, the authority's vice-president of marketing.

"The final piece for Air North's expansion fell into place last Christmas, when the Yukon government agreed to adopt an "anti-predatory" airline policy. Under it, the government will stop doing business with an airline it finds has flooded the market with seats or discounted fares well below costs.

"The sanction would deprive the predatory airline of an equal share of the $3-million the government spends annually on business travel, hospital transfers and freight."

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0JJC/is_1_23/ai_90466467

[Waterlooson]

As Canadians, why do we protect Air Canada's monopoly when they clearly do not care at all about Canada?

.... because the head office is in Quebec?

I say open the market to international competition! :notacrook:

[malek]

of course not, AC screwed Quebec (and Canada) by buying Embraer...

[vid]

Air Canada doesn't even come here anymore. :/ Everyone uses Westjet now.

[Bigtime]

of course not, AC screwed Quebec (and Canada) by buying Embraer...

Hey but the Embraer is a damn nice bird as well, I think Bombardier was lucky to get the orders that they did.

Edit: That is exactly the kind of logic that I never understand with regards to Air Canada, all this hate because they didn't buy as many aircraft from a Canadian supplier. Hmmm, they did an evaluation and found the Embraer to be a better fit for the fleet, you know to make money and be profitable and stuff. Had they only bought the CRJ series and started losing money people would quickly point out how they are still a tool of the government by only buying from the Quebec based supplier etc etc etc.

Air Canada is a perpetually "damned if they do, damned if they don't" airline in the Canadian publics eye. I think that is a damn shame because people will cry bloody murder over things they do, but when Westjet does it the shit smells of roses to them.

Don't get me wrong, I love all things aviation. Hell I worked in the industry as a pilot for 4 years, but public ignorance of the very basic fundamentals of what makes a steel tube go from A->B safely and how it becomes the big bad Air Canada's fault when something doesn't go to plan gets tiring to hear.

End rant.

[The Chemist]

of course not, AC screwed Quebec (and Canada) by buying Embraer...

Screwed Quebec? If the Embraer is a better bird than the Bombardier, AC is certainly under no obligation to buy the Canadian plane just because it's Canadian. Maybe Bombardier should try harder next time.

[murman]

.... because the head office is in Quebec?


By legislation, as I've been told.

[Coldrsx]

By legislation, as I've been told.


yes i have heard this too

[IntotheWest]

Regarding Bombardier/Embraer - it is extremely strange that Air Canada did decide to further diversify their fleet, instead of trying to use less aircraft models - such as Westjet does. It would make things a lot easier for them for a lot of reasons (cheaper, training, rescheding, etc...).

Despite really disliking Air Canada (especially since I'm a CRM consultant - and "customer focus" is not in most of their customer-facing employees vocabulary), I've been flying with them for 3 years weekly now...it's great if you have status ("Elite" or "Super-Elite"), and unfortunately, something Westjet can't compete with for the business traveller yet. As well, most of my colleagues from out east write-off Westjet as a "party plane", not catering to the business travellers.

But yes, the government should've stopped bailing them out years ago. And Milton shouldn't have a job - especially after his "Zip" and "Tango" ideas cost big bucks, and didn't go anywhere.

BTW - Onlythelonely, they don't fly "Tango" planes anymore - they all have executive class again (though, some planes still have the purple Tango colours inside).

[bluenoser]

Even outside of considering the airplane fleet, this is pretty disgusting. If they go ahead with moving the jobs, they'll be losing my support and they'll be well informed as to why.

[chris]

Air Canada is a business...its job isn't to care about Canadians. Its job is to make a profit! It should be allowed to do so any which way it wants within the legal limits.

If you don't like Air Canada, don't fly them.

With 59% of the market share, Air Canada is hardly a monopoly.

[West_aust]

and sure Air Canada in the past have had a preferential treatment, but not anymore, i remember a couple of years ago, they asked the federal govt to remove the law that requires them to offer bilingual service, since westjet isnt obligated to do so, thus increases the cost for air canada, and they said no, and they were against imposing the same law to Westjet.

Sure Air Canada isnt perfect, far from it, but imo they are much better than most airlines in north america

[Bigtime]

Regarding Bombardier/Embraer - it is extremely strange that Air Canada did decide to further diversify their fleet, instead of trying to use less aircraft models - such as Westjet does. It would make things a lot easier for them for a lot of reasons (cheaper, training, rescheding, etc...)

Do you even know why they were forced to have to do this? Scope clauses in the contracts between mainline and jazz pilots. The scope specifically being the number of seats on the aircraft. If Air Canada would have gotten its way it probably would have gone all Embraer.

And even though it does save some money, fleet commonality isn't always as cheap and easy as most tend to think.

Air Canada's future fleet(within the next few years) will actually be pretty simple:

International Fleet:

-Boeing 777-300
-Boeing 777-200LR
-Airbus 330-300(will eventually be phased out in about 5 years)
-Airbus 340-500(only 2, will be sent packing in a few years)
-Boeing 767-200/300
-Boeing 787 (once it enters service, 2009ish?)

Domestic/American/Holiday Fleet:

-Airbus family 321/320/319
-Embraer 170/190
-CRJ 700/900

So ultimately you end up with all Boeing for the widebodies, and Airbus with some Embraer and Bombardier for the narrows. Pretty cut and dry, almost the kind of model you could streamline and yet make the most of for different routes.

[Bigtime]

Oh and regarding a fully open "open skies" agreement that would let the American carriers fly point to point in Canada, let them.

The Canadian flyer would quickly realize that both Air Canada and Westjet offer a much more superior product in economy; and in AC's case business class as well, then the majority of the American carriers.

Factor in Air Canada's 'Project XM', which is pretty much an extreme makeover of the entire fleet with each seat having available video on demand and US carriers are crushed in comparison. This conversion is underway on the entire fleet as we speak, as a/c go in for heavy maintenance as well as all new aircraft delivered with it. Much like Westjet's live tv systems.

[Saska2ntown]

of course not, AC screwed Quebec (and Canada) by buying Embraer...

Try sitting on a CRJ 705 for 3 hours and you'll understand why...

[Rusty van Reddick]

Try sitting in Westjet's 18" wide seats for more than a 50 minute flight. I HATE WESTJET. YYC-LAX was torture in those child seats they have- I felt so bad for those poor souls I saw boarding a WJ flight from Honolulu to Calgary. And now they're talking about those horrible cramped 737s to Europe?

[harls]

Try sitting on a CRJ 705 for 3 hours and you'll understand why...

is that the same jet they use for Ottawa/O'Hare flights?

the very definition of cattle class.

[Bigtime]

is that the same jet they use for Ottawa/O'Hare flights?

the very definition of cattle class.

If it is a really small jet that is the CRJ-200 series that have been around for a long time. The newer 700/900 series is longer, with a slightly taller cabin, as well as having the business class up front with larger seats.

To compare:

CRJ-200
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1166075/M

CRJ-700
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1165494/M

[murman]

is that the same jet they use for Ottawa/O'Hare flights?

the very definition of cattle class.


Or, as my well-travelled friend calls it, "steerage".

[BlackRedGold]

Try sitting in Westjet's 18" wide seats for more than a 50 minute flight. I HATE WESTJET. YYC-LAX was torture in those child seats they have- I felt so bad for those poor souls I saw boarding a WJ flight from Honolulu to Calgary. And now they're talking about those horrible cramped 737s to Europe?

I found flying Westjet YOW-YYC far more comfortable then any of the Air Canada flights I've taken. But I found Westjet YOW-YYZ to be similiar to Air Canada.

[Border City Boy]

First off there is no way they can/will fly 737's on transatlaintic routes.

Not everyone who fly does so on an expense account, and if you do, then I'm sure A/C is great.

However taxes and fees in Canada are outrageous. Why is it that ANY flight into Alberta is crazy expensive? Is there some kind of provincial aviation tax?

My wife and I are heading from Windsor to Edmonton for a wedding in May. I priced all combinations of Windsor/Hamilton/Toronto/Detroit to Edmonton or Calgary, for the two of us we were looking at anywhere from $1200 - $1400 CDN. In the end I ended up booking Norhtwest Airlines from Detroit to Vancouver for $800 and change. For that kind of savings we'll do the drive from Vancouver to Edmonton.

As far as I'm concerend when I travel, I just need to get from A -> B cheaply and safely. We need a RyanAir or Easyjet in Canada.

http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/

http://www.easyjet.com/en/book/index.asp

[malek]

friggin taxes amount to half the ticket total price!

[ibz]

Air Canada flights are pretty hit and miss as far as comfort is concerned. If you get one of the nice upgraded A320s (or also the new Embraers im told) with the new personal entertainment systems, it is quite nice. I had the unfortunate experience of taking an AC 767 to Shanghai which was hands down the single worst flight of my life. The plane was unchanged from 1988 it seemed, fuzzy bulkhead and overhead screens, crappy movies and extremely uncomfortable seats are completely unacceptable for international travel these days.

However when AC gets their new 777s and 787s, they will have a very nice fleet of planes.

[drew]

Screwed Quebec? If the Embraer is a better bird than the Bombardier, AC is certainly under no obligation to buy the Canadian plane just because it's Canadian. Maybe Bombardier should try harder next time.

I totally disagree on this one. Canadian companies should try to buy Canadian as much as possible. It keeps the dollars here and advances the technology here.

From what I understand, the embraer and bombardier products were close enough (bombardiers aren't exactly the "lada" of the airliners anyway...) that really, supporting the home product should have been the final deciding factor.

[malek]

^^ we have a long way by reading this board until people understand this.

Buying local is much better.

[Canadian Mind]

Try sitting in Westjet's 18" wide seats for more than a 50 minute flight. I HATE WESTJET. YYC-LAX was torture in those child seats they have- I felt so bad for those poor souls I saw boarding a WJ flight from Honolulu to Calgary. And now they're talking about those horrible cramped 737s to Europe?


well i suppose if you have a 25 inch wide ass, an 18 inch seat would indeed be uncomfortable. :tup: I'm at a healthy weight and I found ever the two hour+ flights to be relatively comfortable. I say relative because I can't stand being on my ass for more than an hour or so, no matter what I'm sitting in.

Oh, and unless west jet is planning on going from St.Johns to Dublin, a transatlantic flight would be impossible.

Edit - adding onto this, it would be nice if west jet was to purchase 4-6 787s for the purpose of Vancouver -Toronto, Vancouver - Montreal, and possible transatlantic flights.

[arnold]

i've actually been very happy with my service on air canada. i mean, compared to the consistant nightmares i have had on northworst, and discount carriers like america west, i'd take AC any day even if there was a slight premium on tickets...

[The Chemist]

^^ we have a long way by reading this board until people understand this.

Buying local is much better.

Even if buying local is inferior to buying outside the country? Air Canada is a business, and as such, if Embraer gives them a better deal or makes a better product, it makes perfect sense for them to buy it. They're under no obligation to buy from Bombardier. If Bombardier or Quebec doesn't like it - tough. They should either build a better product or offer a better deal so they win the contract next time.

[LordMandeep]

Air Canada is only popular in Ontario and for Christmas vactaion getaways.

[Andy6]

I totally disagree on this one. Canadian companies should try to buy Canadian as much as possible. It keeps the dollars here and advances the technology here.

From what I understand, the embraer and bombardier products were close enough (bombardiers aren't exactly the "lada" of the airliners anyway...) that really, supporting the home product should have been the final deciding factor.

But then that justifies every other country doing the same thing, destroying any potential export markets for Canadian industry. And of course all these protected companies have little incentive to "advance technology" when all they need to do to make a fat profit is to sell whatever crummy junk they can churn out to their captive customers.

[Only The Lonely..]

Try sitting on a CRJ 705 for 3 hours and you'll understand why...

Amen. The cramped quarters Air Canada has confined its customers to in order to save money is disgusting. This practice is especially prominent if you live outside Toronto, say flying between Winnipeg and Edmonton.

If Northwest expanded its service from Winnipeg to Toronto, or any other city for that matter, I'd be inclined to fly with them.

Furthermore, I think it's embarrassing that AC has such limited service to Saskatchewan. I've been in the Winnipeg International Airport and have watched people heading to Saskatoon board a chartered bus because there weren't any flights between Toronto and Saskatoon.

I don't know if service would get better with an open skies agreement, but it certainly couldn't get any worse. As consumers we all win when we have more choice.

[Policy Wonk]

Both the 737-700 and A319 are capable of flying transatlantic with ETOPS, it does not however make much economic sense in terms of aircraft utilization unless you have a route that is very thin but very high yielding.

[queetz@home]

Oooh! I just love this. It seems there is a "Down with Air Canada" thread that pops out of SSP from time to time in one way, shape or form. My fav memory was when Air Canada failed to secure Boeing 777 planes because of some union crap, then one forumer said, "wow, this is fucked up", and another said, "Its Air Canada...fucked up is their montra!"....:lmao:

Yes yes...down with Air Canada! Someone should put that crap company out of its misery already.

I once was FORCED to fly Air Canada and despite being in business class, its the worse service I've been too. And what is up with those flight attendants always fighting with each other? :lol:



From what I understand, the embraer and bombardier products were close enough (bombardiers aren't exactly the "lada" of the airliners anyway...) that really, supporting the home product should have been the final deciding factor.

Bombardier is absolute crap and they are the "lada" of airliners, as well as trains. The only reason why they exist is the stupid Feds appeasing some voters in the East somewhere. To give credit where credit is due, buying those Embraer airplanes is probably the smartest thing they have done ever but to be smarter, they shouldn't have bought Bombardier crap at all. Unforunately, as one person pointed out, they didn't really have much of a choice.... :rolleyes:

[Only The Lonely..]

And what is up with those flight attendants always fighting with each other? :lol:


Are you telling me you don't like the catty matriarch that fetches your peanuts on AC flights?

I don't blame you, it would seem a lot of AC's serving staff lost their love of the job years ago, despite making $50,000 to do the same thing that your server at Applebee's does for minimum wage.

[Only The Lonely..]

I guess the original point of this thread is that increasingly Air Canada is distancing itself from Canada. So why does the Government of Canada support this business (either directly or indirectly)?

For those of us who are lucky enough to live in major hub cities like Calgary or Toronto and have plenty of choices when it comes to selecting a carrier, this probably isn't much of an issue.

But if you live in an out-of-the-way place like Winnipeg, Regina, Edmonton, or Saskatoon, you can only endure flight delays, poor service, and flying on a CRJ for 3+ hours for so long.

I don't see any good reasons for not opening up the skies to major U.S carriers for domestic travel within Canada.

American carriers are the only ones who can withstand AC’s predatory pricing schemes and even beat them at their own game. Although one poster has pointed out that Air Canada has ONLY a 59% market share, and therefore doesn’t qualify as a monopoly, clearly such dominance indicates a lack of healthy airline competition. The only other nation on earth where you’d find such a stagnant air travel market is in Australia where citizens complain even more bitterly about Qantas.

What could possibly be wrong with consumers having greater choice? Long ago, I would’ve argued that by protecting AC, the government is ensuring the continued employment of thousands of Canadians. However, Air Canada clearly has no regard for either Canadian workers or the average domestic flyer who isn’t Super Elite status.

[christopherj]

I guess the original point of this thread is that increasingly Air Canada is distancing itself from Canada. So why does the Government of Canada support this business (either directly or indirectly)?

Honestly, they don't anymore. In fact (although I can't speak for all aspects of government), many do not even fly AC anymore.

But if you live in an out-of-the-way place like Winnipeg, Regina, Edmonton, or Saskatoon, you can only endure flight delays, poor service, and flying on a CRJ for 3+ hours for so long.

I've lived in Edmonton and Halifax and have flown AC many times - I've never had an issue with delays. And I've never see a CRJ fly for more than 3+ hours, only short 1-1.5 hour flights (which I always avoid - I hate those things).

Poor service... well, it's hit and miss.

The one time I flew WestJet, I was delayed by 3 hours.

I don't see any good reasons for not opening up the skies to major U.S carriers for domestic travel within Canada.

I agree... but do you really think those major US carriers provide better service? It's hit and miss, like any airlines. The fact that Air Canada has actually won customer service awards in the past should clearly show you that we won't see better service just because it is a US carrier.

With that being said, if I recall, isn't Air Canada the only Canadian carrier that supports open skies?

[Only The Lonely..]

I agree... but do you really think those major US carriers provide better service? It's hit and miss, like any airlines. The fact that Air Canada has actually won customer service awards in the past should clearly show you that we won't see better service just because it is a US carrier.



Your right, maybe nothing would change..

But the only way to find out is to open our skies to major American carriers to see if it makes a difference. If Air Canada is as great as they claim they should have no problem competing in an open market.

However thus far, the quality of the service offered by Air Canada from Winnipeg leaves a lot to be desired.

If I could fly on a nicer plane, or at a cheaper price from an American carrier I would do so. I have no allegiance to Air Canada because they are Canadian.

The only way to find out if Air Canada is doing things right is to leave it up to consumers to vote with their feet.

I think a deregulated market for air travel would bring out the best in the industry and ultimately work out in the consumer's favour.

[SpongeG]

their new commercials are stupid too - airplanes driving around like cars

and telling people they can save money by forgoing food and checked luggage

[SpongeG]

competition would bring out better service

personally speaking even if i had to pay $25 more for an airline other than Air Canada because it provided better service etc i would choose it

which in turn (in theory anyway) makes Air Canada step up and offer better service because its starts to hurt their pocket book

[IntotheWest]

Do you even know why they were forced to have to do this? Scope clauses in the contracts between mainline and jazz pilots. The scope specifically being the number of seats on the aircraft. If Air Canada would have gotten its way it probably would have gone all Embraer.

And even though it does save some money, fleet commonality isn't always as cheap and easy as most tend to think.


Interesting about the scope clauses. I did consulting work for 4 years with AC back in the 90s (more from a CRM perspective - which they still fail to grasp), and their were heavy costs associated to this...they did have high level plans (may not have been "formalized" to consolidate, but obviously those plans were never realized.

So ultimately you end up with all Boeing for the widebodies, and Airbus with some Embraer and Bombardier for the narrows. Pretty cut and dry...

That still seems like too much, but hey, as long as their business case now works...great.;)

[AJphx]

As far as I'm concerend when I travel, I just need to get from A -> B cheaply and safely. We need a RyanAir or Easyjet in Canada.

what about Southwest and JetBlue? Don't they fly around Canada?

[YYCguys]

what about Southwest and JetBlue? Don't they fly around Canada?

nope...the Canadian equivilent is Westjet.

[tkoe]

The problem with allowing foreign (American) carriers into Canada is that they would cherry pick the biggest and most profitable routes – American Airlines isn’t likely to fly Corner Brook to Deer Lake (much like Westjet). How many routes are there in Canada that would even be worth serving? On the other hand, with a reciprocal agreement Air Canada would be given access to a massive market with dozens of major routes. Even with poor service AC would mop the floor with the American carriers.

As for improving service (and pricing) in Canada, I don’t know what the solution is – outside of Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, and Calgary AC and WJ generally offer poor or non-existent service. It is a real pity that the Government ever allowed Canadian to be swallowed by AC.

[Dalreg]

Amen. The cramped quarters Air Canada has confined its customers to in order to save money is disgusting. This practice is especially prominent if you live outside Toronto, say flying between Winnipeg and Edmonton.

If Northwest expanded its service from Winnipeg to Toronto, or any other city for that matter, I'd be inclined to fly with them.

Furthermore, I think it's embarrassing that AC has such limited service to Saskatchewan. I've been in the Winnipeg International Airport and have watched people heading to Saskatoon board a chartered bus because there weren't any flights between Toronto and Saskatoon.

I don't know if service would get better with an open skies agreement, but it certainly couldn't get any worse. As consumers we all win when we have more choice.


Don't know what you experienced with respect to Saskatoon-Toronto but there are plenty of non stop flights between the two cities.

[rbt]

It is a real pity that the Government ever allowed Canadian to be swallowed by AC.

Allowed is the wrong word. Air Canada wasn't exactly a willing partner in that purchase.

[Bigtime]

Allowed is the wrong word. Air Canada wasn't exactly a willing partner in that purchase.

Amen! Someone else that actually realizes this!

Oh please force us to take on Canadian and it's old aircraft, mismatched fleet and completely different union and seniority structure, and then integrate them!

Sorry folks but the best thing about Canadian was their last livery, that looked gorgeous!

[SpongeG]

i read somewhere that jet blue might be adding some Canadian destinations - like Vancouver and Torotno - but they would only serve US cities no in between canada places