Starbucks; the Ultimate Sign of Fitness for a City?

[vertex]

It appears that many forum members seem to cite the opening of a Starbucks as a sign of fitness for any particular neighboorhood, or even for a large town or small city.

My question is why? Aren't there better or more obvious indicators for neighborhood health?

My observation isn't exclusive to this forum; I've seen it many times, in numerous newspaper articles, and have even heard the publicity whore Richard Florida mention this as a 'legitimate' indicator.

[hauntedheadnc]

The only thing Starbucks is around here is a rite of passage -- anarchist hippie parents around here glow with pride as each new generation of anarcho-hiplets vandalizes the Starbucks in Biltmore Village. You aren't considered truly counterculture until you've heaved at least one brick at the place.

[vertex]

So tell me, why do you think Starbucks opened a shop in Asheville?

[James Bond Agent 007]

Starbucks targets a certain demographic range when they open stores. That demographic tends to be one which can afford $3 cups of coffee. So, if we consider relatively well-off demographics to be a sign of "fitness", then yes, there is some logic in citing a Starbucks opening to be a sign of a "fit" neighborhood.

But it's not just Starbucks, there are others as well. Nordstrom, for example. It's just that Starbucks is probably the most common one.

[vertex]

Then how on earth does that explain the starbucks in south central LA or south Chicago?

[hauntedheadnc]

So tell me, why do you think Starbucks opened a shop in Asheville?

They've opened three, I believe -- possibly four -- and the one in Biltmore Village sits right outside the gates of Biltmore Estate. They're going for the tourists, obviously. There's another in South Asheville, in a suburban area, surrounded by shopping centers and office parks, and there's another in a newish mixed-use building on the way to the wealthy neighborhoods on Town Mountain.

They know their market well. They go for tourists and wealthy people. I doubt that they'd dare set foot downtown, West Asheville, or in the River District for fear of being firebombed. The only coffee shops you'll find in those areas are indie coffee shops, and if words gets around the usual crowd in any of those indie shops that you're mainstream enough to partake of Starbucks, then no one will speak to you.

[scribeman]

Then how on earth does that explain the starbucks in south central LA or south Chicago?
It doesn't. Starbucks opens anywhere, as you rightfully indicated.
Starbucks is fantastic. My mocha latte was a lot more expensive than it was before Starbucks came along.

[LordMandeep]

there is a starbucks opened in a strip mall ner my house...

Its always full of young trnedy people though. So you think your in a urban atmosphere inside the store, but your far from it.

[JivecitySTL]

I do think the presence of a Starbucks is an indicator that a neighborhood has "arrived."

[LordMandeep]

nah starbucks shows nothing.
If a starbucks opens in a power centre, it does not mean its urban.

[JivecitySTL]

^Who said anything about urban?

[hydrobond]

Then how on earth does that explain the starbucks in south central LA or south Chicago?

It doesn't.

Starbucks, like any business, will open where people will pay for its goods, not necessarily where people can afford to pay for their goods. If people are willing to pay for a $5 cup of coffee with food stamps, then Starbucks will gladly sell them one.

[MapGoulet]

It doesn't.

Starbucks, like any business, will open where people will pay for its goods, not necessarily where people can afford to pay for their goods. If people are willing to pay for a $5 cup of coffee with food stamps, then Starbucks will gladly sell them one.

I don't buy all these claims that Starbucks has $4 and $5 cups of coffee. They don't. They sell blended and specialty drinks (like desserts, really or milkshakes) for $3-$5, not coffee. I get my cup of coffee at Starbucks because it's comparatively good and cheap. $1.50-1.80 or so depending on the size. I've never heard of a cup of actual coffee costing more than $2 at a Starbucks. It does, on the other hand, cost well over $2 at my favorite indie hangouts, but then those are usually french press or percolated stuff with the darkenss and consistency of mud (yum!).

Starbucks has a bad rap for no reason for this misconception that they sell expensive coffee. They sell moderately priced liquid desserts!

[James Bond Agent 007]

Then how on earth does that explain the starbucks in south central LA or south Chicago?
Those are exceptions, not the rule.

You can be sure there are more Starbucks in north Chicago than there are in south Chicago.

[crisp444]

I doubt that they'd dare set foot downtown, West Asheville, or in the River District for fear of being firebombed. The only coffee shops you'll find in those areas are indie coffee shops, and if words gets around the usual crowd in any of those indie shops that you're mainstream enough to partake of Starbucks, then no one will speak to you.

Well that's hyperbole if I ever saw it...

[crisp444]

Then how on earth does that explain the starbucks in south central LA or south Chicago?

Two words: income density. Stores in high density lower/middle income neighborhoods often sell much more products than if they were located in upper income neighborhoods that aren't densely populated due to the sheer amount of people walking the streets and coming in and out of the store.

[hauntedheadnc]

Well that's hyperbole if I ever saw it...

Precisely, as hyperbole is one of the many tools with which a writer can convey a point, without resorting to a dry and humorless listing of facts. A bit of hyperbole can convey a point wryly, thus making the reader smile, especially if he or she is familiar with the subject in question.

As it offends you, however, perhaps a rewriting is in order:

Starbucks would be disinclined to locate an outlet in the neighborhoods of downtown, West Asheville, or the River Arts District, as their market studies undoubtedly show a propensity in the aforementioned neighborhoods for patrons to choose indepenently-owned and -operated businesses over large, multinational corporations. After noting the considerable and consistent vandalism from which an existing Starbucks store within the city limits of Asheville is known to suffer, perhaps this decision is wise, as locating a store in any of the three aforementioned neighborhoods, each of which is home to large populations of "non-conformists" and those who consider themselves "counterculture," is likely to incite more vandalism, as well as protests and an upswing in community activism among the large population of local residents that prefers to patronize independent businesses. Community activists already work toward a goal of driving large chain businesses from the city of Asheville, or at least to its suburban fringes, and as such, it is to be noted that said community activists, who can often be found patronizing their preferred independent businesses -- coffee houses among them -- look with scorn upon those who they consider stereotypically materialistic and "suburban" enough to partake of the goods and services of large, multinational chain businesses.

:yes:

[roner]

Well said crisp444. In addition a cup of coffee only cost 1.40 and a latte 3.00. Were not talking new BMW's here, if low income folks can afford smokes at 5 a pack they can support a lot of starfucks. I've got 4 in my hood as well as about 10 indie coffee shops. It's funny though, everybody knocks Starbucks, yet they almost single handedly created this frenzy for cafe culture. I mean, I know there were other cafes before, but now it's two on corner. :hyper:

[sf_eddo]

Starbucks has a bad rap for no reason for this misconception that they sell expensive coffee.

Starbucks has a bad rap because it is ubiquitous, and we all like being elitist and local/indie.

I don't go to Starbucks, but not because it's ubiquitous - I don't go because I think their espresso drinks are weak and poorly made.

[Jeff_in_Dayton]

Starbucks targets a certain demographic range when they open stores. That demographic tends to be one which can afford $3 cups of coffee. So, if we consider relatively well-off demographics to be a sign of "fitness", then yes, there is some logic in citing a Starbucks opening to be a sign of a "fit" neighborhood.

Starbucks had recently opened a drive-through store at the Dixie Manor shopping center in Pleasure Ridge Park, Kentucky (a somewhat declining blue-collar suburb of Louisville...though Dixie Highway gets a lot of traffic).

With that store Starbucks has become a commoditity and has lost any and all cachet of hipness or specialness. Its just the McDonalds of pricy coffee now.

[Jeff_in_Dayton]

Starbucks has a bad rap for no reason for this misconception that they sell expensive coffee. They sell moderately priced liquid desserts!

well, ok, i can see that!

[Taller Better]

To be frank I have never heard that theory.

[arcite]

Starbucks had recently opened a drive-through store at the Dixie Manor shopping center in Pleasure Ridge Park, Kentucky (a somewhat declining blue-collar suburb of Louisville...though Dixie Highway gets a lot of traffic).

With that store Starbucks has become a commoditity and has lost any and all cachet of hipness or specialness. Its just the McDonalds of pricy coffee now.


A drive-thu Starbucks? Now that is low. I always thought starbucks was something to savour, not something to pick up as quick as you can and gulp it down like a common mcdonolds cheeseburger and coke.

I suppose the next step is to start selling 20 different kinds of donuts. :::shudder:::

[staff]

Starbucks doesn't exist in Scandinavia - what does that say?

[donybrx]

The location of Starbuck's installations has more to do with their anticpated financial fitness....it's a cache thing....cache (to them ) and carry.....heh.

Then again, I'm the anti-Christ of trendy, without malice. But I'll spend for quality; however, last time I stopped at Starbucks was in LaJolla. The pastry was stale, as it was a year earlier. I can live without.

[keninhalifax]

Starbucks doesn't exist in Scandinavia - what does that say?

It says that as usual, Scandis are way ahead of the loop!

[staff]

^^
Not the other way around?
After all, it's Scandinavia, North Korea, Iraq, Iran and various African countries that doesn't have Starbucks yet. :)

[HomeInMyShoes]

^That's it!!! Scandinavia is the real access of terror, and you've been hiding it all along Staff. :)

[rockyi]

All of the Starbucks around here are in strip malls in neighborhoods without sidewalks.....Far from health conscience.

[Ex-Ithacan]

My doctor told me to stop drinking coffee. No Starbucks for me.

[HomeInMyShoes]

^What about tea? How about a nice tall soy chai latte half sweet? You can still enjoy $5 hot beverages Ex-Ithacan. :)

[Ex-Ithacan]

Nope, no tea either. You've probably guessed that the rock-gut whiskey is also a no-no.

[HomeInMyShoes]

^$3 micro-soda-company ginger ale?

[Ex-Ithacan]

Not suppose to do carbonated either, but screw the doctor, I need something in life besides water & milk. Ginger ale it is.

[keninhalifax]

My doctor told me to stop drinking coffee. No Starbucks for me.

Not to pry too deeply into your personal life, Ith, but what is it about coffee that has your doctor telling you to abstain from it?

[Ex-Ithacan]

^ the caffeine and acidity. Now stay out of my personal life Ken (wink-wink)

[donybrx]

^ the caffeine and acidity. Now stay out of my personal life Ken (wink-wink)

Yes, Ken...some thngs are better left alone....heh

[MayorOfChicago]

Then how on earth does that explain the starbucks in south central LA or south Chicago?

I looked on their website. There are 112 Starbucks stores within 5 miles of me on the north side of Chicago.

There are 6 on the southside of Chicago. 1 on the west side.

That's a huge difference. Yes there ARE starbucks on the southside and west side, but dozens of times more on the north side/downtown.

[vertex]

To me, using Starbucks as a sign of fitness has officially become irrelevent, given the company's plans to expand from 12,000 to 40,000 stores in the next few years. I'm certain south Chicago will see more than it's fair share.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/10/25/business/main2125101.shtml

[J. Will]

It used to mean something, but it means nothing anymore. They have opened in some of Toronto's poorest areas. They're everywhere now.

[Evergrey]

Wow. There's a Starbucks right across the street from my new apartment in Pittsburgh. Maybe that will help me regain my former figure LOL.

[Evergrey]

It used to mean something, but it means nothing anymore. They have opened in some of Toronto's poorest areas. They're everywhere now.

You're right.

I knew Starbucks was really beginning to "slum" it when they opened a location in Wooster, Ohio.

[Steely Dan]

You can be sure there are more Starbucks in north Chicago than there are in south Chicago.

actually, north chicago does not have any starbucks. it's a rather impoverished community, especially in relation to its ritzy north shore neighbors.

[scguy]

Starbucks are everywhere these days, I even saw on in an old army hospital on a military base in Georgia.

[BlackRedGold]

Starbucks' ginger-molasses cookies are AMAZING. I welcome Starbucks' presence in my neighbourhood for those cookies alone.

[LordMandeep]

yep there are not trendy at all anymore.

[ChrisLA]

Then how on earth does that explain the starbucks in south central LA or south Chicago?


They don't, Magic Johnson's company own those in the hood. He has opened several in African American and Latino hoods all across america's big cities.
All you have to do is look at the wallpaper and if Magic Johnson's is featured holding a cup of coffee, its part of the johnsons corporation he owns. He went in parthnership to with then to open in hood where they won't

What funny to me is he even owns the one in Ladera Height which happens to be an upper middle-class African American neighborhood in Los Angeles. I hear too its one of the highest grossing Starbucks in the country. Yet they wouldn't open one there.

I also find it funny that at one time Starbucks officials said they would never open any stores in downtown Los Angeles. After another chain open stores all around the downtown area apprantly did well. Starbucks sat back and observed and a few years later started opening up stores. One by one they took over and put the other chain out of the downtown market. They even least the exact space where this other chain originally was.

I don't hate Starbucks, but they are usually next to last (Coffee Bean is last, their drinks are too weak) in choosing a coffeehouse in a neighborhood when I didn't get my fix at home.

[Marcu]

We all seem to forget that starbucks didnt invent fast-food coffee. Dunkin Donuts did. DD has sold to go coffee for decades. Now that starbucks plans to opne 40k stores, it will surely see the fate of DD: under every bridge, in every train station, in every strip mall (even more so). Maybe even factory outlet stores.

So what good can possibly come out of this? An independent trendy chain with a product we've seen for years repackaged and remarketed with an urban motif will emerge. In another...starbucks redux (or whatever creative name they come up with). It's only a matter of time.

[Swede]

^^
Not the other way around?
After all, it's Scandinavia, North Korea, Iraq, Iran and various African countries that doesn't have Starbucks yet. :)

More like Starbucks were too slow. The market's saturated already here :D

[staff]

^^
True. Stockholm based Wayne's Coffee (http://www.waynescoffee.se/) and Malmö based Espresso House (http://www.espressohouse.se/index2.htm) (pretty much a copy of Starbucks - even the logo!) are better than Starbucks anyway - although more expensive too.

[Visiteur]

Hmmm...Starbuck's. Where I go to college, there are two outlets-one in the adjacent residential corridor to my school, and the second is across the street from the bus transfer station downtown. both are high traffic areas for students, so it makes sense to tap into the market.

Back home, Starbuck's just opened their first outlet in a tony suburb, and are planning three more in wealthier communities.

But then, I know nothing about Starbucks. I don't care for coffee (tea and soda give me my artificial energy), and I've never been inside a Starbucks.

[northface]

well, starbucks started in seattle...and seattle is the most fit city...i believe.

[Ex-Ithacan]

Hmmm...Starbuck's. Where I go to college, there are two outlets-one in the adjacent residential corridor to my school, and the second is across the street from the bus transfer station downtown. both are high traffic areas for students, so it makes sense to tap into the market.


OK Vis, don't be afraid to admit it's Ithaca. ;) :haha:

Actually, I was wondering how they're doing, considering how loyal most folks are to their local shops.

[Rusty van Reddick]

We all seem to forget that starbucks didnt invent fast-food coffee. Dunkin Donuts did. DD has sold to go coffee for decades. Now that starbucks plans to opne 40k stores, it will surely see the fate of DD: under every bridge, in every train station, in every strip mall (even more so). Maybe even factory outlet stores.

So what good can possibly come out of this? An independent trendy chain with a product we've seen for years repackaged and remarketed with an urban motif will emerge. In another...starbucks redux (or whatever creative name they come up with). It's only a matter of time.

To go coffee and Starbucks are not remotely the same. Donut shop brewed coffee, which is akin to coffee sold at truck stops, and Starbucks, which created (it did not popularize, it CREATED) the to-go latte cup phenomenon, has nothing at all to do with Dunkin Donuts. Or, for Canadians, Tim Hortons, which similarly sell truckstop shit that idiots think is good coffee.

Dunkin Donuts did start to sell espresso-based drinks in the early 1990s, but this was their effort to emulate Starbucks, not the other way around.

Starbucks developed the domed-lid "latte cup," it promoted "latte" as a beverage (one that does not exist, in that form, in Italy), it made 16+oz the standard for milk-based drinks (vs a traditional cappo, which is 5 oz max), it invented iced blended drinks (not granitas or slushes, but blender-blended iced drinks), it made those domed latte cups (vs Tim Horton's horrible flat-top slum cups) a fashion statement such that every anti-Starbucks "alternative" coffeehouse uses exactly the same branded latte cup and thus copies Starbucks...

And most importantly- the VAST MAJORITY of independent coffeehouses around North America would not exist if Starbucks had not created the market for specialty coffee.

I frequent indie, third-wave coffeehouses when I can, but I respect the rold Starbucks has played. It's not to be underestimated.

[donybrx]

^^^^ oh. Pardon our mirth........:)
And most importantly- the VAST MAJORITY of independent coffeehouses around North America would not exist if Starbucks had not created the market for specialty coffee.

yet, would I be being un hip for gulping down some cultivated 'joe' at any of several of Boston's very old, very fine Italian trattorias or pastry/coffe/espresso shops or those in New York's Little Italy, for example or those venerable establishments of Philadelphia for that matter? I wonder if they know of Starbuck's dominating originality.?

[vertex]

And most importantly- the VAST MAJORITY of independent coffeehouses around North America would not exist if Starbucks had not created the market for specialty coffee.



Sorry, but this is nowhere close to the truth; it's the other way around. The indies set the table for starbucks.

[SpongeG]

starbucks is a sign that in a way an area has "arrived" that it can now have a starbucks

the same kind of thing went ont n the 90's with GAP - GAP meant the area was truly "gentrified" and it kind of made a mall a little morebetter for lack of words - malls without GAPS i think still are seen as low end kinda places but if the mall as a GAP its seen as higher end and better stores move into the mall after them

[SpongeG]

Sorry, but this is nowhere close to the truth; it's the other way around. The indies set the table for starbucks.

i think they need each other to exist

north america was never really a coffe drinking place as compared to europe - statrbucks love em or hate em brought coffee culture to north america en masse

and as a result i know in vancouver - a number of coffee places have popped up some even turning into chains

[JManc]

my home town (utica, ny) finally got a starbucks a year or so ago. even though its not a full blown starbucks (its in a barnes & noble) it is a sign that starbucks is pretty much saturated here in the US.

utica was like that kid who was always picked last in kickball.

[Evergrey]

my home town (utica, ny) finally got a starbucks a year or so ago. even though its not a full blown starbucks (its in a barnes & noble) it is a sign that starbucks is pretty much saturated here in the US.

utica was like that kid who was always picked last in kickball.

oh my god... who's next... Rome? :yuck:

[satsuchan]

I realized that Starbucks failed to matter as an indicator of hipness when one opened in a reconstituted Wendy's in Martinsville Indiana, a city that is that historical state stronghold of the KKK, and a place that few of my non-white friends would slow down if they could avoid it.

[SpongeG]

well, starbucks started in seattle...and seattle is the most fit city...i believe.


i don't think they mean fit or healthy as in residents health but a neighbourhoods "health" that it can sustain such a place as starbucks

you never really see starbucks in crappy run down places

[Kevin]

Hmmm...Starbuck's. Where I go to college, there are two outlets-one in the adjacent residential corridor to my school, and the second is across the street from the bus transfer station downtown. both are high traffic areas for students, so it makes sense to tap into the market.

Back home, Starbuck's just opened their first outlet in a tony suburb, and are planning three more in wealthier communities.

But then, I know nothing about Starbucks. I don't care for coffee (tea and soda give me my artificial energy), and I've never been inside a Starbucks.

Correction: A Starbucks on Route 57 in Clay has been open for at least 4 years. The Starbucks on the SU campus was open for a little longer. Then two years ago Starbucks opened a location in Armory Square. Fayetteville got Starbucks over a year ago. A Starbucks near Carrier Circle opened up shortly after that. Starbucks just got approved for Route 11 and Taft Road in Clay. A couple more are planned in the area...I believe Camillus is one of the locations.

[Nutterbug]

A drive-thu Starbucks? Now that is low. I always thought starbucks was something to savour, not something to pick up as quick as you can and gulp it down like a common mcdonolds cheeseburger and coke.

I suppose the next step is to start selling 20 different kinds of donuts. :::shudder:::

And then the soups and sandwiches, to truly go head-to-head against Dunkin's and Tim's.

Didn't I also hear that McD's is also planning to enter the gourmet coffee market? Soon, all fast food chains will be the same.

[Chicago103]

Starbucks is a sign of fitness for a city because in general there are more starbucks in urban walkable parts of a city/metro than is auto-oriented suburban sprawl. There are some starbucks in suburban malls and strip malls and I have seen some starbucks in outer neighborhoods that have some parking on the side but I have yet to see a stand alone starbucks completly surronded by a parking lot like you would with a McDonalds or something like that.

Also when someone said that there are only six starbucks on the southside of Chicago what does that mean? Certainly you dont mean anything south of Madison because that would still include half of the Loop and then there is the south loop/near south side. If you mean southside outside of the 312 area code I guess I can believe it, but still how many Starbucks are in Hyde Park? I believe the only starbucks on the southwest side is at Midway Airport and one in Beverly I know of.

[Black Box]

Sorry, but this is nowhere close to the truth; it's the other way around. The indies set the table for starbucks.

Starbucks was indie in the 1970's and well, now they're a behemoth. I frequent indie shops that are recent arrivals (Fuel Coffee) and shops that have been around for a long while (Monorail Espresso). Starbucks does come in handy when you are in areas that lack good coffee establishments.

[arbeiter]

well staff, there were more 7-11's than I've ever seen in my life in scandinavia, so it's certainly not because scandinavians hate chain stores from America!

[ChrisLA]

I thought 7-11 is a Japanese company.

[combusean]

Downtown Phoenix remains one of America's largest urban quagmires, and the plethora of Starbuckses hasn't helped one bit. There are somewhere around a half-dozen in downtown proper, and a few more on the immediate periphery. One strip mall close to downtown even has two--a regular location and one inside the Safeway.

Then again the difference between pedestrian traffic during the day and night is just like that, so if anything as people actually move to the area the basic infrastructure will be there, but the businesses just need to close later in the day.

I'd take a Coffee Plantation over Starbucks any day of the week for what it's worth.

[MayorOfChicago]

Starbucks is a sign of fitness for a city because in general there are more starbucks in urban walkable parts of a city/metro than is auto-oriented suburban sprawl. There are some starbucks in suburban malls and strip malls and I have seen some starbucks in outer neighborhoods that have some parking on the side but I have yet to see a stand alone starbucks completly surronded by a parking lot like you would with a McDonalds or something like that.

Also when someone said that there are only six starbucks on the southside of Chicago what does that mean? Certainly you dont mean anything south of Madison because that would still include half of the Loop and then there is the south loop/near south side. If you mean southside outside of the 312 area code I guess I can believe it, but still how many Starbucks are in Hyde Park? I believe the only starbucks on the southwest side is at Midway Airport and one in Beverly I know of.

It was everything south of Roosevelt or so and west of Halsted. I know there are starbucks south of madison in the downtown area, and i'm sure there might be some around central station and UIC. I was just looking at the true "south side" away from the loop and universities. I think there were 2 in the Hyde Park area and then 4 in the rest of southern Chicago.

I wasn't trying to SAY something with that statistic, but I just randomly found it and thought it was interesting compared to the 153 stores that I find within 10 miles of North and California.

[JManc]

I thought 7-11 is a Japanese company.

yeah. started in dallas but were bought out by the japanese. they are everywhere over there.

[SpongeG]

i heard that starbucks, in vancouver at least, was going to only be opening drive thru locations or at least try to have drive thrus cause the drive thru ones out perform the non drive thru locations

[westsider]

Starbucks is a sign of fitness for a city because in general there are more starbucks in urban walkable parts of a city/metro than is auto-oriented suburban sprawl. There are some starbucks in suburban malls and strip malls and I have seen some starbucks in outer neighborhoods that have some parking on the side but I have yet to see a stand alone starbucks completly surronded by a parking lot like you would with a McDonalds or something like that.

I don't know about a sea of parking but I've seen plenty of stand alone starbucks around here.

[crisp444]

Drive-through Starbucks is nothing new. I believe the Pinecrest, FL (affluent suburb south of Miami) Starbucks on US-1 has had a drive-through since 2000 or so... very popular in the mornings for commuters driving into downtown Miami.

[SpongeG]

yeah there is one in the vancouver suburb of south surrey that apparently does the highest volume of business for the entire company or something and set some kind of record when it first opened

it was the first drive thru for the area - there are now quite a few drive thrus - they opened 3 around the same time on the major routes into downtown vacnouver a few years ago - they converted an old KFC into a starbucks even

[Kilgore Trout]

well staff, there were more 7-11's than I've ever seen in my life in scandinavia, so it's certainly not because scandinavians hate chain stores from America!


7-11 is one of those international brands that can't be traced back to a single place. there are more 7-11s in asia than in north america, for instance.

some surveys have apparently shown that mcdonald's has recently become the third most-respected brand in sweden, due in large part to the fact that all of their food is now organic, fair trade and local.

[otnemarcaS]

Precisely, as hyperbole is one of the many tools with which a writer can convey a point, without resorting to a dry and humorless listing of facts. A bit of hyperbole can convey a point wryly, thus making the reader smile, especially if he or she is familiar with the subject in question.

As it offends you, however, perhaps a rewriting is in order:

Starbucks would be disinclined to locate an outlet in the neighborhoods of downtown, West Asheville, or the River Arts District, as their market studies undoubtedly show a propensity in the aforementioned neighborhoods for patrons to choose indepenently-owned and -operated businesses over large, multinational corporations. After noting the considerable and consistent vandalism from which an existing Starbucks store within the city limits of Asheville is known to suffer, perhaps this decision is wise, as locating a store in any of the three aforementioned neighborhoods, each of which is home to large populations of "non-conformists" and those who consider themselves "counterculture," is likely to incite more vandalism, as well as protests and an upswing in community activism among the large population of local residents that prefers to patronize independent businesses. Community activists already work toward a goal of driving large chain businesses from the city of Asheville, or at least to its suburban fringes, and as such, it is to be noted that said community activists, who can often be found patronizing their preferred independent businesses -- coffee houses among them -- look with scorn upon those who they consider stereotypically materialistic and "suburban" enough to partake of the goods and services of large, multinational chain businesses.

:yes:


It's just a matter of time. Hey, San Francisco went throught it's bonding pains with Starbucks (sample story from vandalized starbucks in SF a few years ago (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0806-04.htm)) But now, you'd be hard pressed to find a SF neighbood without at least one Starbucks although the vast majority are concentrated in the financial district.

Hey, if anti-chain bastions of Berkeley, Davis and San Francisco, CA can embrace Starbucks, then any city can't be safe for long.

I was even in Vienna last summer and was quite shocked to see Starbucks in this city know for it's local cafes and coffeehouses.

[TomAuch]

my home town (utica, ny) finally got a starbucks a year or so ago. even though its not a full blown starbucks (its in a barnes & noble) it is a sign that starbucks is pretty much saturated here in the US.

utica was like that kid who was always picked last in kickball.

Doesn't Utica have a large Italian population? I would think that getting ethnic Italian food wouldn't be much different than going to a Little Italy in NYC, Boston, or Philly. Then again, Utica is much smaller.

[fangorangutang]

I think there are three in the Hyde Park area in Chicago. One on 55th and Woodlawn (my dad lives right around there), one further east on 53rd, and one right smack in the middle of the university on Ellis, which I used to frequent in middle school (to read their newspaper scroll thingies and the bookstore attached to it).

[Rusty van Reddick]

yet, would I be being un hip for gulping down some cultivated 'joe' at any of several of Boston's very old, very fine Italian trattorias or pastry/coffe/espresso shops or those in New York's Little Italy, for example or those venerable establishments of Philadelphia for that matter? I wonder if they know of Starbuck's dominating originality.?

Most people don't live in these cities, and most people in these cities never once stepped inside the caffes that you're romanticizing. You're fooling yourself here. Papa DeNicola's (or wherever) did not do what Starbucks did; Papa served espresso and cappuccino in little cups, which is great, but did nothing to promote "specialty coffee."

Now the indie places have to operate based on a model that Starbucks created. Find me an indie coffee house that (1) doesn't to to-go; (2) doesn't serve ridiculously huge "lattes"; (3) doesn't do some variant of a frappuccino.

Go ahead, I'll wait.



Couldn't find one, could ya. Didn't think so. That's because the old Italian places are irrelevant.

Now, I repeat that I will ALWAYS go to quality indies. ALWAYS. I travel to Portland just to go to Stumptown. I make a beeline for Artigiano or Cafe O or JJ Beans in Vancouver as soon as I check into my hotel, sometimes before I check in. But I am not deluded about the simple fact that these places would not exist if Starbucks had not created their markets.

[BTinSF]

It's just a matter of time. Hey, San Francisco went throught it's bonding pains with Starbucks (sample story from vandalized starbucks in SF a few years ago (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0806-04.htm)) But now, you'd be hard pressed to find a SF neighbood without at least one Starbucks although the vast majority are concentrated in the financial district.



SF 'hood with no Starbucks: Civic Center. Don't ask me why. I don't know. Until recently, there really weren't any chain coffee places, but Peet's opened at Opera Plaza last summer. Still no Starbuck's though.

[Canadian Mind]

lol, vancouver must top the fitness list then. I'm waiting for an intersection with a starbucks on every four corners...

[fflint]

SF 'hood with no Starbucks: Civic Center. Don't ask me why. I don't know. Until recently, there really weren't any chain coffee places, but Peet's opened at Opera Plaza last summer. Still no Starbuck's though.
There's a Starbucks at Fox Plaza near the post office, but that's the far edge of the Civic Center to be sure.

[otnemarcaS]

:previous:

I was about to reply with the same comment that I do see a Starbucks at the Fox Plaza which I thought was part of Civic Center area.

[dvstampa]

What I think is funny is most of the independent coffee houses out there today wouldn't have survived had Starbucks not created the coffee culture as we know it today.

There was a story in the SF Chronicle or Guardian awhile back talking about this. It said that people were pissed when Starbucks started opening all over the city. But the number of indie coffee shops has actually doubled in San Francisco since Starbucks came along.

I'm looking for a link as I type and will post if I find it. It was quite an interesting story.

[sf_eddo]

It's just a matter of time. Hey, San Francisco went throught it's bonding pains with Starbucks (sample story from vandalized starbucks in SF a few years ago (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0806-04.htm)) But now, you'd be hard pressed to find a SF neighbood without at least one Starbucks although the vast majority are concentrated in the financial district.

The two neighborhoods I've lived in in San Francisco have no starbucks - Hayes Valley and Potrero Hill.

[dvstampa]

Technically, Potrero has two Starbucks....doesn't it?

The one on the corner of Rhode Island and 16th
The one on the corner of Mariposa and Bryant

or would you call these SoMa and Mission locations?

[vid]

All of my cities Starbucks are in Power Centres (Big box stores surrounded by miles of parking lot) and in Safeway's (two of which are in the suburbs) so no, Starbucks are not a sign of fitness. Besides, our unemployment is rising fast and the economy is done broke itself.

Now, independent coffee houses, we have several of. When you have local businesses doing well, THAT is a sign of fitness for a city. Starbucks? It's just a chain restaurant.

[Coldrsx]

didnt they say the same thing about mcdonalds in the 60's

[BTinSF]

:previous:

I was about to reply with the same comment that I do see a Starbucks at the Fox Plaza which I thought was part of Civic Center area.

I admit I didn't even know it was there but I also think of that as "mid-Market" more than "Civic Center" (please, it's Civic Center if you all want it to be; I'm just saying how I think of it).

[BTinSF]

What I think is funny is most of the independent coffee houses out there today wouldn't have survived had Starbucks not created the coffee culture as we know it today.

There was a story in the SF Chronicle or Guardian awhile back talking about this. It said that people were pissed when Starbucks started opening all over the city. But the number of indie coffee shops has actually doubled in San Francisco since Starbucks came along.

I'm looking for a link as I type and will post if I find it. It was quite an interesting story.

I don't know if there are more independent coffee shops now than in 1987 when Howard Schultz bought it and started metastisizing everywhere, but I do know that SF had a thriving "coffee shop" scene well before 1987 with one or more in pretty much every neighborhood (and quite a few in some neighborhoods like North Beach where they were thriving in the 1950's). Also, if there are more, I don't really give Starbucks the credit. In SF, where the high cost of housing forces lots of people to have roomates who really would rather not and who use a coffee shop as an alternate living room, I think the proliferation of coffee houses has more to do with the out-of-sight-even-for-SF rents of the late 90's and the tech boom bringing more young people than ever to town than it does with Starbucks.

[roner]

ALWAYS. I travel to Portland just to go to Stumptown

Stumptown is part of the so-called third wave of cafe culture. The guy who owns the small and innovative (3) chain takes trips to Africa and South America to personally select the beans and meet the farmers. The beans are then roasted back in Portland at his warehouse in his unique method (his coffee is far superior to any I've had before) This wave is more concerned with baristas and their skills (reportedly making 20 an hour at stumptown with tips and buying houses), barista competitions, coffee geeks, fair trade, backyard roasting styles, and upping the coffee game. I think it’s all kind of silly, but a local that followed this method just opened a shop in NYC and is killing it with 2 more set to open there this year. Also the barista comps have expanded to include a weekend of events that pack the wonder ballroom (holds about 600).

[BTinSF]

This wave is more concerned with baristas and their skills (reportedly making 20 an hour at stumptown with tips and buying houses), barista competitions, coffee geeks, fair trade, backyard roasting styles, and upping the coffee game. I think it’s all kind of silly

I lean much more toward the dusty, full of used furniture with a moonlighting college kid behind the counter playing "barista" style of coffee shop.

Like this:

http://www.graffiks.com/sf/images/shakey_ground1.jpg

or this:

http://www.graffiks.com/sf/images/royal_grounds.jpg

or this:

http://images.yelp.com/bphoto/GujBs8dZMcQSFnm8wCKYkQ/l

or this:

http://us.a2.yahoofs.com/mapann/1048/sr_86656aab0e903a.jpg?lclYrKFDRAblj.Ri

or this:

http://sfsurvey.com/ad_images/sfsurvey_dot_com_BIG_UserID_91_Image_number_371231580.JPG

[roner]

:previous: That's what stumptown is. All three of the cafes are vastly different. One is a hip downtown urban lounge (not cheesy) that's modern. The other two are much more neighborhood style with lots of classic café yet hipster vibe. That’s the thing; the third wave is all about local and neighborhood, but with a whole new approach. I just read an interesting article concerning the whole thing. Check out this link for the story. http://www.wweek.com/editorial/3249/8078/

[vertex]

:previous: Good article, but I don't agree with the whole 1st/2nd/3rd wave paradigm.

It seems to me like the prototypical 1st wave coffee houses were the places in New York that mushroomed after WWII, where the beatniks hung out. It was places like these that were the primary inspiration for the 1950's-era version of Starbucks, Chock-Full-of-Nuts.

BTW, is Chock-Full-of-Nuts even around anymore?

[James Bond Agent 007]

What I think is funny is most of the independent coffee houses out there today wouldn't have survived had Starbucks not created the coffee culture as we know it today.

There was a story in the SF Chronicle or Guardian awhile back talking about this. It said that people were pissed when Starbucks started opening all over the city. But the number of indie coffee shops has actually doubled in San Francisco since Starbucks came along.

I'm looking for a link as I type and will post if I find it. It was quite an interesting story.
Precisely. Here's the article.

Despite the Jitters, Most Coffeehouses Survive Starbucks
Wall Street Journal
Tuesday, September 24, 2002

KANSAS CITY, Mo. – The news gave quite a bit of jolt to the owners of a coffeehouse here called Broadway Café: Starbucks Corp. was planning to open one of its outlets next-door.

Fearing that their café wouldn’t survive a war with the coffee giant, the Broadway’s customers and owners collected a thousand signatures on a petition asking city leaders to thwart the plan. But Starbucks won city approval and pushed ahead.

That was four years ago. Today, the Broadway Café remains open. In fact, sales at the 10-year-old coffeehouse have grown stronger since Starbucks arrived. With reluctance, Jon Cates, a co-owner of the Broadway, concedes that that might not be a coincidence. “Starbucks helped our business, but I don’t want to give them any credit for it.”

Unexpected Boost
The battle between independent coffeehouses and Starbucks may be one of the most hostile – and most misunderstood – rivalries in retailing. Starbucks is prospering, with earnings up 22.4% in the first nine months of the year that ends Sept. 29, and a compound annual growth rate from fiscal 1997 to 2001 of 26.8%. Conventional wisdom, meanwhile, says Starbucks is clobbering the independent – invading its turf, stealing its customers, bankrupting its owners.

In fact, most independents are doing fine – and not just in spite of Starbucks, but perhaps because of it. Here in Kansas City, nearly all of the coffeehouses operating before Starbucks arrived in 1998 remain in business. Since then, other independents have opened, pushing their numbers well beyond the 25 stores Starbucks has in the market. Like Broadway Café, many of the independents operate within a stone’s throw of a Starbucks outlet.

Nationwide, independents accounted for more than half of the industry’s growth between 1996 and 2001, when the number of U.S. coffeehouses doubled to 13,300, including Starbucks, according to Mintel Consumer Intelligence, a Chicago market-research firm. Moreover, the large majority of independent coffeehouses started within the past decade have survived, industry experts say. By comparison, close to half of the country’s sit-down, slow-food restaurants are less than two years old, according to D&B, another market-research firm.

Educating the Market
Many coffeehouses have found proximity to Starbucks to be a blessing. A small Seattle chain called Tully’s Coffee Corp. has even developed the strategy of placing its stores near a Starbucks shop. Chicago entrepreneur Doug Zell in1995 started his Intelligentsia Coffee Roasters within walking distance of two Starbucks outlets. “It’s double-digit growth every year,” Mr. Zell says.

A third of Americans who drink coffee away from home order gourmet coffee from a specialty shop, according to Mintel. Many people believe that Starbucks increases the overall market, attracting new customers to the product who then patronize the independent provider next door. “When a Starbucks opens, it educates the market, expanding it for everyone,” says Bruce Milletto, president of Bellissimo Coffee InfoGroup Inc., a Eugene, Ore. Company that provides consulting services to independent coffeehouses.

The coffeehouse may be that rare thing in retailing – a concept that doesn’t heavily favor chains. Never mind that critics of Starbucks routinely compare it with Wal-Mart Stores Inc. Starbucks simply doesn’t enjoy the advantages that have made Wal-Mart the bane of countless main street retailers – lower prices, longer hours, wider selection. The Starbucks offering isn’t less expensive or more extensive than the independent’s, and the chain’s hours are often shorter.

This may be why, contrary to popular perception, independents still dominate the industry. Independents and small chains boast a 61% share of the industry, says Mintel. In fast food, by contrast, independents and small chains hold only a 27% share, according to Technomic Inc., a Chicago food-consulting firm. Indeed, the coffeehouse industry boasts only one big chain – Starbucks, with 3,167 company stores in the U.S. Of the countless others that have tried mimicking it, not one has matched its success. The nation’s second-largest chain, Deidrich Coffee Inc., of Irvine, Calif., boasts only 237 U.S. stores.

A big reason for the success of independents is that they’re less like restaurants than like neighborhood taverns – a concept no chain ever threatened. As at taverns, many customers come alone in search of company. The ideal setting is comfortable, intimate and personal. It doesn’t look like 3,000 other joints with the same name. Often, the person behind the counter is the owner.

“This is like ‘Cheers’ without the alcohol,” says Seine Riley, a morning regular at a Chicago coffeehouse called Katerina’s, referring to the television sit-com. On a recent day, the dozen customers there all knew each other as well as owner Katerina Carson. At night, Katerina’s offers jazz performances, poetry readings and old-movie screenings. The place is well-appointed – upholstered chairs, antique tables, a copper coffee bar – and intimate, like a living room.

Since Starbucks opened down the street two months ago, Katerina’s sales haven’t dipped. But Ms. Carson is convinced Starbucks would like to hurt her business. Never mind that at least 100 independents operate alongside more than 90 Starbucks locations in Chicago. Mc. Carson once patronized an independent coffeehouse that didn’t survive the arrival of Starbucks. “Starbucks is a corporate monster,” she says.

’The Old Wal-Mart Thing’
Occasionally, the opening of a Starbucks does precede, and perhaps instigate, the closing of a nearby independent. When this happens, and contrary to what the numbers show, it’s typically viewed as the rule rather than the exception. Most independent coffeehouses in Indianapolis have survived the opening of about two dozen Starbucks. But when Café at the Point shut its doors early this year, the Indianapolis Star devoted a column to it, quoting the café owner as saying, “A big company like Starbucks can come in and lose money for two years until they wipe everybody else out. It’s the old Wal-Mart thing.

The perception of the battle as pitting Goliath against pitiable Davids helps explain why independents are faring so well. For one thing, sheer terror goads many independent owners to improve their shops when Starbucks enters the neighborhood. Kansas City’s Broadway Café banned smoking and began roasting its own beans when Starbucks opened next door. Similarly, the arrival of additional Starbucks in Long Beach, Calif., prompted the five-store It’s a Grind chain to spend thousands on cosmetic improvements as well as staff training, customer service and quality control. Sales have been rising by 8% to 15% since Starbucks moved close to the It’s a Grind stores in 2000.

The image of Starbucks as a decimator of independent shops can also turn customers into activists. When the chain announced it would enter the Ocean Beach neighborhood of San Diego last year, protests arose. Twelve months later, Starbucks is open and the protests continue – even though the area’s independent coffeehouses are thriving. Since Starbucks opened nearby, two stores called Newbreak Coffee have watched sales rise 15%. Co-owner Norma Slaman says, “Competition is good.”

Like a tavern, the local coffeehouse can become a key component of an area’s character. In reviewing neighborhood coffeehouses for a Kansas City Star article this June, writer Laura Chapin recommended 23 of them – not one of them a Starbucks. “I chose just do local coffeehouses because they simply have more atmosphere, more local color, more joie de vivre.

America’s ‘Third Place’
For its part, Starbucks agrees that atmosphere is important. Howard Schultz, Starbucks founder and chairman, said a coffeehouse must provide not only great products but also hang-out appeal. His goal was for Starbucks to become America’s “third place” between home and work. In an interview, Starbucks Chief Executive Orin Smith concedes that independents can provide a more-distinctive atmosphere than Starbucks. But he says not everyone wants “old couches and chairs to lounge around on.”

Of course, most independents didn’t exist before Starbucks demonstrated the tremendous potential of the coffeehouse market. But that doesn’t mean Starbucks believes it should own the entire market. “We have created the umbrella under which they are thriving,” says Mr. Smith. “They can do well right next-door to us.” Mr. Smith says the U.S. coffeehouse market is five to 10 years from saturation.

Even when it sets up shop beside an independent store, Starbucks says it isn’t applying a squeeze. And Doug Weltner believes it. The landlord of Kansas City’s Broadway Café, he was skeptical when Starbucks approached him about leasing the space next-door. Why fill one slot if the effect would be to empty another? “But Starbucks convinced me that it wouldn’t hurt the Broadway Café, and it didn’t,” he says. Starbucks, he says, told him that independent coffeehouses that didn’t panic fared well.

Still, suspicion of Starbucks remains deep. When Starbucks asked Jeff Schmidt whether he’d consider selling LatteLand in Kansas City, he didn’t even ask how much. “I don’t think they really wanted to buy it,” he says. “They just wanted a peek inside my business.” Starbucks declined to comment on the matter.

Before opening City Market Coffee Co. in Kansas City, Courtney Bates made certain Starbucks could open next door: She insisted on a clause preventing her landlord from renting to another coffeehouse.

It’s doubtful that many independents are as profitable as Starbucks shops. The size of its orders means that Starbucks receives purchasing discounts that fatten its profit margins. Even amid the current economic weakness, its sales and earnings have been climbing steadily. In the quarter ended June 30, Starbucks posted a 20% rise in earnings from the year-earlier period, to $56.2 million, or 14 cents a share, on a 29% rise in sales to $972 million.

But the profit margins on gourmet coffee drinks are so high that independent operators can thrive even without volume discounts. That’s especially so for coffeehouses that roast their own beans because of the plunging prices of raw beans.

The three-store Kansas City coffeehouse chain of Diane and Oliver Burnett more than pays their bills, including Catholic-school tuition for one child and daycare expenses for another. “It’s the American dream – running your own business,” says Mr. Burnett whose stores, called Muddy’s, are posting double-digit growth within walking distance of Starbucks shops.

Starting a coffeehouse requires only a fraction – from $50,000 to $250,000 – of the more than $500,000 needed to start a McDonald’s franchise. Along with dot-coms, it’s the business that has been most alluring to the young entrepreneur, not least because the entry fee is relatively low. Ms. Bates, who was 21 when she founded City Market Coffee, six years later bought out her financial partner: her father. “I just paid dad off, and at 27, I own my own business and love it.”

[donybrx]

What I think is funny is most of the independent coffee houses out there today wouldn't have survived had Starbucks not created the coffee culture as we know it today.


I have to chuckle to myself when I read things like this....reminders that each generation thinks that it has been the innovator (my own included) of this, that or the next thing. In essence, "everything old is new again", perhaps with a twist or in the case of Starbucks a mega-proliferation (I'm of the mind set that the law of diminishing returns shows up at some point...quality usually suffers); the "beat" generation of Kerouac & co. had its coffee houses (with fine cigarettes!) in Greenwich Village modeled on those of Paris' rive gauche and before them.......and so on....

Things go in cycles.....hell's bells, the movie industry nearly died from the 1950's thru the 1960's and now look....while overlooking the typical lackluster level of quality owing to formulaic/ profit driven filmmaking of too many movies..but that's another thread....

[discojames]

I know that Starbucks are multiplying like rabbits in the cities, but I had a jaw drop experience yesterday when I passed a 100 foot Starbuck sign in Manchester, a very small town on I-24 between Chattanooga and Nashville, and it was next to a WalMart!

[fflint]

I drink Starbucks sometimes.

[keninhalifax]

I have to chuckle to myself when I read things like this....reminders that each generation thinks that it has been the innovator (my own included) of this, that or the next thing. In essence, "everything old is new again", perhaps with a twist or in the case of Starbucks a mega-proliferation (I'm of the mind set that the law of diminishing returns shows up at some point...quality usually suffers); the "beat" generation of Kerouac & co. had its coffee houses (with fine cigarettes!) in Greenwich Village modeled on those of Paris' rive gauche and before them.......and so on....

Things go in cycles.....hell's bells, the movie industry nearly died from the 1950's thru the 1960's and now look....while overlooking the typical lackluster level of quality owing to formulaic/ profit driven filmmaking of too many movies..but that's another thread....

You must admit, though, that mass-produced coffee culture simply didn't exist two decades ago. Most coffee shops stuck to the basic coffee and espresso-based beverages, and they were mostly independent and frequented by a very specific clientele. There were very few places that served lattés, cappuccinos and iced mochas, and the general public did not rush to a 'coffee shop' every morning to purchase a frothy, sugary drink as they do now. Starbucks really accellerated the penetration of coffee into consumer culture.