Suburbs foster more sense of community than downtown

[miketoronto]

Here is an interesting article. All these studies coming out now showing suburban stuff is better for people. First transit riders are not as happy as car drivers. And now city dwellers have worse social lives then city dwellers.

I think this has to do more with downtown and the suburbs then inner city neighbourhoods and the suburbs. My sisters friends are married and live in the inner city in a house. And they know people on their block, and the kids play together, etc just like in the suburbs.

So I think this article I guess touches more on downtown housing then having a house in the city.


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Suburbs foster more sense of community than downtown

Suburbs foster more sense of community than downtown
study: Those living outside the cities have more friends and know their neighbours

Published: Saturday, November 11, 2006

If absence makes the heart grow fonder in far-flung romances, it seems a bit of elbow-room does the same for neighbours.

A new study says that people who live in sprawling suburban areas have more friends, better community involvement and more frequent contact with their neighbours than urbanites who are wedged in side-by-side.

The results challenge the accepted idea that suburban life is socially alienating -- a notion that's inspired everything from the Academy Award-winning American Beauty to Harvard professor Robert Putnam's book Bowling Alone.

The study, released by the University of California at Irvine, found that for every 10 per cent decrease in population density, the chances of people talking to their neighbours weekly increases by 10 per cent, and the likelihood they belong to hobby-based clubs jumps by 15 per cent.

"We found that interaction goes down as population density goes up. So, turning it around, it says that interaction is higher where densities are lower," says Jan Brueckner, an economics professor at UC Irvine who led the study. "What that means is suburban living promotes more interaction than living in the central city."

The results are no surprise to Fayrouz Costa, who has lived in -- and loved -- the Toronto suburb of Mississauga, Ont., for the last 20 years. She has two young children and is constantly socializing with her neighbours, who take turns watching over each other's children while they play outside and house-sitting for those on vacation.

"You couldn't give me a free house in the city and say, 'Move here.' Honestly, I could never do it," she says. "There's just too many people, people are too close to each other and people are not friendly. I'm a chatterer and people don't chat in the city."

Costa is a member of her community centre, where she uses the fitness facilities five days a week and knows "almost everyone." She contrasts her lifestyle with that of her sister, who lives and works in Toronto, and concludes that she "would never leave the suburbs."

"People are always in a rush to get where they need to go and they work a lot more," Costa says of life in the city. "A lot of the time in the suburbs, people have families and their life is a little more relaxed."

That "social homogeneity" may partly explain the closeness of neighbours in the suburbs, says Pierre Filion, a professor of urban planning at the University of Waterloo. Young children often act as social catalysts for their parents, and people in the suburbs tend to have more common ground than the diverse lifestyles crammed into a given city block, he says.

"People [in the suburbs] are pretty much of the same social class, same social background and so on, which eases interaction between people," Filion says. "At the other extreme, you can have a whole bunch of people living in a condo, but you've got old people, young people, people in between. You won't have that much interaction because of the differences."

Brueckner says the UC Irvine study accounted for differences in social class, family structure and other factors, and found that people are still friendlier in the suburbs. The results suggest society needs to re-think some received wisdom about the evils of suburbia, he says, but other criticisms about the loss of green space and the costs of commuting still stand.

"All the other arguments against urban sprawl are still there, it just removes this particular one from the list when you're complaining," he says.

Lyn Scott has lived in Steveston for the last three decades and watched as it grew from a sleepy village to "the 'in' place for young families to live," a 30-minute drive from downtown Vancouver.

She is now the block captain of a neighbourhood watch program that welcomes new residents, keeps tabs on crime and hosts an annual block party. While most young families who move into her neighbourhood are surprised to find such quaint niceties, some have a hard time adjusting to the suburban scene, she says.

"Some of them are a little bit cynical and say, 'Oh, that makes me feel really safe, having a block watch,' " Scott says in a faux-sarcastic tone. "But they come around."

© The Vancouver Sun 2006

[DeadManWalking]

I completely agree with the idea that suburbs require a person be more outgoing in their social interactions by talking with your neighbor more often, and by joining more clubs or groups. I disagree with the notion that living in the city means you will lead an unhealthy social life.

A persons social life has more to do with the individual person than their environs.

[miketoronto]

I think it has more to do with kids. Everyone on my street use to know each other here in the burbs. That was when everyone had small kids at home. But now I notice that the new people who have moved in, we don't interact with as much, as they have no kids, and everyone just sticks to their homes.

So I guess kids are the glue. :)

[PhillyRising]

I think it has more to do with kids. Everyone on my street use to know each other here in the burbs. That was when everyone had small kids at home. But now I notice that the new people who have moved in, we don't interact with as much, as they have no kids, and everyone just sticks to their homes.

So I guess kids are the glue. :)

I just think people with similar interests who see one another will interact no matter where they live. In my development...the people with kids tend to talk to one another and hang out out on the small playground while their kids play...and those of us who just have dogs....tend to wind up talking to one another as our dogs sniff each other. :haha:

[James Bond Agent 007]

Where's Chicago103?

:D

Actually I agree with the comment about the kids. Nearly every apartment I've lived in, I've never really had much interaction with my neighbors - and neither has anyone had any interactions with anyone else, that I could observe. But growing up in the suburbs - yeah, kids kinda force neighbors to get to know each other. And suburbs tend to have more kids.

[miketoronto]

But we have to remember that not everyone in the city lives in apartments :)

There are houses and townhouses in the city with kids in them.

Now I live in the suburbs, but down the street from me are high-rise apartment towers with mostly families in them. And you do see interaction there. In the evening you see all the kds out in the park with their parents chatting with other parents from the building, etc. So I guess kids can bond parents no matter if it is condos or houses.

[aion26]

I agree that in the burbs were I grew up, it was the kids that seem to bring the everyone together. We were all out in the street playing all day (at least until the streetlights came on) and would go over to each others houses, and our parents wanted to know who we were hanging out with. As such, they got to know each other too.

Oh, and there are kids on the street in my neighborhood in the city now, quite a few of them in fact.

[Curious Atlantan]

People need to be around people. In the city the density allows that to happen naturally, in the suburbs you have to go out of your way to socialize. This is also why people go to churches and hobby clubs much more in the suburbs.

[MayorOfChicago]

I wish I could vomit on the person who wrote this article.


It clearly seems like some happy housewife who lives on a cul-de-sac in beautiful suburban America with 27 houses on the street, every one of them with children between the ages of 2 and 14 who all attend school together.

I grew up in that exact situation, and yes, we knew every single person on the block. My parents then moved one street over about 5 years ago. It was a street that looked much the same as the one they left, except the whole area of town had been developed for about 30 years now and only one or two of the houses had kids. Surprise surprise!!! No one on the street ever really talked and no one knew each other. My parents met the neighbors just because they're always outside at the same time, that's about it.

Kids make the difference, not living in a city or the burbs. In the suburbs, these households who know all their neighbors are mostly married couples with children who interact because they meet their neighbors through their children playing together. They do sports, boy scounts, girl scouts, community programs, school shit.

Most people living in the city are single, couples, domestic couples, but not the sheer number of people living with children in their homes. I don't think I'd know every single house on the street if I were to move to some single family home in Woodstock Illinois right now. I don't really mesh well with famlies and kids, I find them annoying.

Maybe they find me annoying, more power to them.

It still doesn't mean I don't have much as much a social life and sense of my community in Chicago than I would if I lived in some suburb. I find this person insulting to city-dwellers that we're all mean (awwww) and don't care about our neighbors or cities we live in. Yes, we all go home after work, draw the shades, and sit in the corner of our living room with a shotgun in hand waiting for the rapists and home invaders.

[rapid_business]

Add the fact that the study also showed people were more comfortable around similar age, social class, standard of living, (race?). It's f@*&ing ridiculous! It's all the WASP's who live in their closed bubbles and don't want to imagine life outside of that. [EDIT FOR CLARITY SAKE] although it might not be verbalized, what they think is..."What, hanging out with an Asian construction worker? Sorry, I'll stick to my standard WASP professional..."

EDIT: Article was on the front page of the Sat. Edmonton Journal.... *groan*

[BnaBreaker]

There is really nothing more for me to add to the previous three posts. I think they sum up my own thoughts quite well.

[jeicow]

Add the fact that the study also showed people were more comfortable around similar age, social class, standard of living, (race?). It's f@*&ing ridiculous! It's all the WASP's who live in their closed bubbles and don't want to imagine life outside of that. "What, hanging out with an Asian construction worker? Sorry, I'll stick to my standard WASP professional..."

EDIT: Article was on the front page of the Sat. Edmonton Journal.... *groan*

Uh, seeing as it quotes Mississauga as an example you may want to take your racist view off the table.

[tackledspoon]

Most living situations foster more of a sense of community than downtown districts that usually have lower residential rates and huge amounts of office space and businesses that cater only to the workers who are there on weekdays from 9-5.
This article neglects the middle ground- urban neighborhoods outside of the central business district. Outer city neighborhoods and extremely inner-ring suburbs are most conducive to community.
No offense Mike, but do you really expect the people on this site to do anything but shit on an article like that?

[Chicago103]

To the extent that this is true it is not true because of density nor because of the nature of the built environment of cities vs. suburbs. Rather it is due to a self fullfilling prophecy brought about by decades of propoganda that the suburbs are the proper place for family life. Yes if you examine certain city neighborhoods and certain suburbs the suburbs will come ahead because they have been socially engineered to be that way.

However back in the day, meaning 1950 or earlier many children were raised in crowded urban settings and there was alot of interaction between neighbors and children. In fact I would argue that 1950 urban areas had more social interaction than the suburbs of today or really anywhere today aside from the few places where traditional family oriented urban areas exist (mostly in immigrant communities like hispanics). If you go back to many of these neighborhoods that were once thriving with children decades ago you might find a lot sterile childless yuppy like people because for one those people bring the suburban mentality with them to the city and secondly because they dont have children and because of what they are conditioned to believe those neighborhoods arent the proper places for child rearing.

Also the age of a community is an important factor, if a suburb is 25, 30 or more years old even if it is fairly auto-centric there will be social interaction simply through there being long term residents that had their children grow up together etc. In many newer subdivisions and new condos and/or highly gentrified parts of the city people are very transient and their neighborhood has no meaning to them besides their own self interest and the resale value of their homes. If there is no community in a highrise it says nothing about the nature of the highrise itself but rather there not being enough people who believe that social interaction, much less family social interaction is even possible. If you assent to the belief that "cities are places where people are so crowded, are not friendly and dont like to chat" than even if you move there it will become a self fullfilling prophecy from your closed minded beliefs. I would argue to the contrary that in urban areas the nature of the built environment itself fosters more social interaction and that only false perception of reality has prevented that in modern times. On the other hand sprawly suburbs are only have commnity because people believe that is the only place where proper community can exist but in reality the nature of the built environment actually works against that very socialization.

Where I live in the Hancock building there is a fairly strong sense of community and that is in part because the building has been occupied by residents for 36 years and the older residents know each other. Thats not to say there arent reclusive people but there could be reclusive people anywhere, its not because of the building. Kids trick or treat from floor to floor for Halloween, there are common areas of the building where the HOA sets up social events of all kinds, we have our own grocery store, swimming pool, exercize room etc where residents can gather and socialize. This building is only a sardine can for people who believe it is a sardine can. People need to simply free their minds to make downtown a sociable place to live.

[MonkeyRonin]

As I said in the other thread about this article.. it is more of a myth that suburbs are mostly children and families and the city is couples and singles, etc. in Toronto's case, the City which makes up 44% of the GTA's population, contains 43% of it children.

Also, the title is misleading when it tries to give the impression that suburbanities have more "friends" or social interaction than urbanities.. they just have more annoying neighbours who they have to talk to.

[brickell]

So I guess kids are the glue. :)

In my neighborhood it's the dogs.

[Chicago103]

As I said in the other thread about this article.. it is more of a myth that suburbs are mostly children and families and the city is couples and singles, etc. in Toronto's case, the City which makes up 44% of the GTA's population, contains 43% of it children.

Also, the title is misleading when it tries to give the impression that suburbanities have more "friends" or social interaction than urbanities.. they just have more annoying neighbours who they have to talk to.

That is also true, the city has just about as many kids as the suburbs its just that professional suburban minded people and the neighborhoods they tend to live in the city tend not to have kids. So when people say the city has no kids what they really mean is that people like themselves dont have kids in the city and sub-consciously some people think that people like themselves are the only people that exist or really count and at worst they view the people different from themselves as the "undesirables" cast of society and thus dont really count either.

[the pope]

off note, suburbs (whether intentionally or not) do a good job of keeping similarly situated incomed households together. Entire swarths of land will be priced "from the 250s" whereas the market variation in a city is much more pronounced (I can at least speak for cleveland) in a much smaller radius.

[Chicago103]

off note, suburbs (whether intentionally or not) do a good job of keeping similarly situated incomed households together. Entire swarths of land will be priced "from the 250s" whereas the market variation in a city is much more pronounced (I can at least speak for cleveland) in a much smaller radius.

That also touches upon perception of housing costs and demands for living space. When people say they cant afford to live in the city and that the suburbs are more affordable for families with kids what they really mean is that you can only afford a large house with a separate bedroom for each of your 2.5 kids, a free parking space for your two cars in an overly marketed neighborhood in the suburbs and for some people you also add in the phrase "in a racially, ethnically, politically and/or economically homogonized neighborhood where people like yourself live". To say people cant afford to live in the city nor form a sense of community is pure hogwash on the highest order.

[rapid_business]

Uh, seeing as it quotes Mississauga as an example you may want to take your racist view off the table.

What the hell are you talking about? I was using an example of the typical, (yet candid) opinion of these ignorant and self-absorbed suburbanites who 'feel better' amongst their own.

[arbeiter]

this article makes me want to poop.

[BnaBreaker]

One point I don't think anyone has brought up yet is that comparing some cozy little suburban hamlet to the corporate office center of the city is not exactly a fair comparisson in this context. Of course downtown Toronto isn't going to be all that "child friendly".

[i-215]

I've lived in the suburbs of Salt Lake City and in intercity Portland.

BOTH have a sense of community. I do believe that if you are in a tight complex in the city, than it can have a cool sense of community. We all knew each other in the ol' Halsey complex. I was the only white guy, but all the nieighbors were cool and we knew each other. However, the next complex over I didn't know a soul ... for about 12 miles in each direction.

In the suburbs I may not know everyone on my block, but I have a sense of community throughout the city, and I know a bunch of people beyond my block even if I don't know everyone on my block like I did in Portland.

I'd say it comes down the this: community isn't the type of neighborhood, but the people who live there.

[J. Will]

Downtown Toronto is far more child friendly than any of the suburbs.

[Chicago103]

Downtown Toronto is far more child friendly than any of the suburbs.

At the very least downtown Toronto has alot of potential to become child friendly if people want it to be so. Of course as BnaBreaker said if you compare well established suburban communities with new highrise condo developments in downtown Toronto of course the suburbs are going to win in that scenario because the former is more established than the latter. I say aside from rasing your kids in a literal ghetto, third world shantytown/appalacia or any other obviously bad place you can raise them anywhere and be fine, all that matters is what values the parents have, what they instill in their children and taking the best advantage of what the community has to offer. The black and white worldview and ignorance that some of these suburbanities show is astounding. I also agree with J. Will, the downtowns of some cities are far more child friendly in many ways than alot of the new suburbs and exurbs going up out there regardless of how against conventional wisdom that assertion is.

[RG1976]

I grew up in the city of Pittsburgh in a single-family home with a two-car garage. I could still name all of the families that lived on our block in the 1980s and early 1990s. Perhaps that was a more "suburban" existence than what people typically think of when describing "the city."

However, think of something quite urban--housing projects. People (often with multiple children) are crammed together in housing projects. Is there social interaction? Of course there is! Most of the people in the projects don't just stay cooped up in their little apartments all day; they socialize. Just picture Willona on "Good Times." Someone like her exists in the projects and in the suburbs. The difference is that she may be hanging out at an expensive salon in the suburbs.

I hate to pick on one woman in Ontario, but she mentions that people in the city work more and that the suburbs are more relaxed. I wonder if her husband feels that way. That's fine if she's a housewife (I wouldn't want to deal with kids and household chores all day), but someone must be making the money to pay the mortgage. Is life more relaxed with less work for that person? I imagine it wouldn't be as different in the city for the breadwinner in the household.

[Monetto]

Well, if you defined "community" as the occasional nod and chat about the weather as you wait for the kids to come home, (the male equivalent is a nod while mowing) then yes, suburbs do foster more of a community.

IMO, a sense of community is best observed in older, established neighbourhoods that are on the lower end of the social scale, such as certain inner city neighbourhoods. Wealthy individuals can afford to be elitist, and most often have too many things to worry about (such as large mortgage payments and long hours on the job) and thus I really do not think that wealthy areas foster community (ex. in Toronto, compare Chinatown to Cabbagetown)

As a second argument, I believe that North America and its cultural mentality is not conductive to community through its very nature. Self-reliance, consummerism, competition, residential mobility, car dependancy, isolationist attitudes etc. are not conductive to communal living and communal experiences. If you wish to see "community" defined, go to some poor, ex-communist eastern european country.

Cheers

[Chicago103]

Well, if you defined "community" as the occasional nod and chat about the weather as you wait for the kids to come home, (the male equivalent is a nod while mowing) then yes, suburbs do foster more of a community.

IMO, a sense of community is best observed in older, established neighbourhoods that are on the lower end of the social scale, such as certain inner city neighbourhoods. Wealthy individuals can afford to be elitist, and most often have too many things to worry about (such as large mortgage payments and long hours on the job) and thus I really do not think that wealthy areas foster community (ex. in Toronto, compare Chinatown to Cabbagetown)

As a second argument, I believe that North America and its cultural mentality is not conductive to community through its very nature. Self-reliance, consummerism, competition, residential mobility, car dependancy, isolationist attitudes etc. are not conductive to communal living and communal experiences. If you wish to see "community" defined, go to some poor, ex-communist eastern european country.

Cheers

True there is a certain cultural perspective inherent in the US that is different from say Europe or Asia that is more focused on individuality but that being said there is a big difference between american culture of today vs. that of the pre-WWII area and the difference is the built environment in which the average american lives.

People used to live in smaller living quarters in denser neighborhoods and people walked and took public transportation everywhere, this applied equally to people who had kids as those who didnt. If you read about the traditional urban neighborhoods that existed in Chicago and many large inner cities throughout this country back in the day you will find that community thrived in them, kids grew up to be just fine and people actually knew each other alot better because they tended to stay in the same place.

Smaller living quarters mandated that families attempt to get along, share personal belongings and space, thats not to say it was heaven on earth but at the very least people couldnt retreat from their problems as easily, the rebellous teenager just couldnt lock his or her door, put on an Ipod, play the XBox and basically retreat to their own separate world away from their parents. At the same time if there was a spousal argument the kids would be right there and there would be nowhere in the house to retreat to, the husband couldnt tune out the wife in the media room watching a football game and the wife couldnt flirt with other men on the internet in the den without somebody finding out. Also if the kids were doing drugs or having sex it would be difficult to do in such a small space unnoticed and if they attempted to do it outside the house their absense would be noticed by somebody since somebody was almost always home and little space to get lost in.

The same applies in a more macro sense in the neighborhood, you lived close to your neighbors, you walked by them everyday, knew the names of their kids and if there were any problems you would have to deal with them head on and not in a passive agressive manor. There was no homeowners association to control other people's lives in an arbitrary fashion, if you had a problem with what somebody was doing on someone's property you would have to confront them yourself and if they didnt agree with you there was nothing you could do.

[skylife]

I grew up in typical US suburbia and there was and is, without a doubt, a far greater sense of community than in the city. This whole fantasy about city people having some mystical connection to each other is so stupid.

I was just at my parents' house at Thanksgiving and they went on forever about what these neighbors are doing, who got married, who had babies, who's moving and what they sold their house for, and so on. I know maybe 2 or 3 neighbors by name and not much else.

I much prefer the more anonymous and less butt-inski attitutes of the city.

[BnaBreaker]

I grew up in typical US suburbia and there was and is, without a doubt, a far greater sense of community than in the city. This whole fantasy about city people having some mystical connection to each other is so stupid.

I was just at my parents' house at Thanksgiving and they went on forever about what these neighbors are doing, who got married, who had babies, who's moving and what they sold their house for, and so on. I know maybe 2 or 3 neighbors by name and not much else.

I much prefer the more anonymous and less butt-inski attitutes of the city.

I would never discount your personal experiences at all, but they are merely your personal experiences. My personal experiences are almost completely opposite.

Of course, I suppose there might be a difference. Because clearly there are different types of neighborhoods in suburbia and in the city.

I know that for me, when I talk about these 'social benefits' of living in a well-planned area, I am not referring to a feeling of being 'buddy-buddy' with your neighbors necessarily, but instead referring to a true sense of sharing the community with other people from all walks of life and the idea that you are truly a part of something greater than yourself.

[Chicago103]

I know that for me, when I talk about these 'social benefits' of living in a well-planned area, I am not referring to a feeling of being 'buddy-buddy' with your neighbors necessarily, but instead referring to a true sense of sharing the community with other people from all walks of life and the idea that you are truly a part of something greater than yourself.

Thats what I am trying to say also, even though I talk about places where neighbors are buddy-buddy so to speak I am talking about community in the communitarian sense, as in having public spaces and public identity. Its not about chatting with random people on a bus or rapid transit, its about simply tolerating the fact that you are sharing space with people that are different from yourself. In the suburbs everything is about privacy and private to semi-private/exclusive property, sure people in many subdivisions may socialize in the common park area run by the homeowners association but if there is someone who looks like they arent from the area then fear, paranoia and reactionary behavior occur. Sure you can cite some isolated example of a black kid being harassed by police in a Chicago park district park in Bridgeport but im just pointing out that public parks are public parks.

The idea that you are a part of something greater than yourself is also important, while that may sound like communism to some ideologues but thats what creates the foundation of any civilized society is a common good, complete self-interest would cause us to fall to virtual anarchy. In general in the suburbs you encounter more people that care about nothing but themselves wheras in the city you come across more who truly care about where they live. Suburbs by their very nature are smaller municipalities separate from the larger city and tend to be more homogonous individually whereas the city oftentimes has many different types of neighborhoods and people all operating towards a common purpose.

[skylife]

Fair enough...I'm not dead inside or anything - I understand the beauty of a city and its neighborhoods. I enjoy any kind of festival and going to my usual places which create a sense of neighborhood and place. I also don't necessarily feel any kind of kinship passing by people I don't even know because they live in my neighborhood and I don't think I know my neighbors better at all. Which is great! I don't want to gabba gabba blah with everybody I see. I find gabba gabba blah much more common among suburbanites.

[Chicago103]

Fair enough...I'm not dead inside or anything - I understand the beauty of a city and its neighborhoods. I enjoy any kind of festival and going to my usual places which create a sense of neighborhood and place. I also don't necessarily feel any kind of kinship passing by people I don't even know because they live in my neighborhood and I don't think I know my neighbors better at all. Which is great! I don't want to gabba gabba blah with everybody I see. I find gabba gabba blah much more common among suburbanites.

Quite honestly I think it just becomes a self fullfilling prophecy for most, if someone thinks that the city is some cold impersonal place then they will observe rude people around them and use them as an example of what people in the city are like and forget about the friendly people they encounter, inversly if you are convinced people are friendly in the suburbs or small towns you will use the friendly people you encounter as an example and forget about the assholes you encounter there. Bottom line is that there are assholes everywhere and there are friendly people everywhere. If you say that you cant find community in the city it means either you are not looking hard enough or you live in the wrong neighborhood, block, building. Thats another point, that people tend to associate a place with their own personal experiences, i.e. if you were raised in Cabrini Green thats what you associate growing up in Chicago with, and those who were raised in the bungalow belt associate living in a single family house on a small lot with growing up in Chicago.

[miketoronto]

My family lived in the inner city way before I was born, and the stories they have of community are amazing. They still are in touch with some of their old neighbours.

I think the lack of community today has more to do with society as a whole. Most people just don't sit outside anymore and chat with their neighbours in the city or suburbs.

[Chicago103]

My family lived in the inner city way before I was born, and the stories they have of community are amazing. They still are in touch with some of their old neighbours.

I think the lack of community today has more to do with society as a whole. Most people just don't sit outside anymore and chat with their neighbours in the city or suburbs.

Thats because the suburban mentality has taken hold even in the city. People are more mobile which is fine but also home ownership is now more about making a quick buck a little down the road than simply having a place to live in and raise your family. Ironically the only major shortcoming of traditional american life, that being fear of those that are different is what was the catylist for the suburban exodus. Its sad that it seems that nowadays that its only the negative that many people wish to preserve from the past and the very thing that kept true communities intact in the past, that being well designed built environments is now feared as "different". Traditional way of life means only living in a house as large as you need so familes can be closer, walking around your neighborhood and interacting with people as you do your daily errands and using public transportation sharing your commute with your neighbors and coworkers, meaningfull community and not simply superficial "hellos" and small talk from people that are just like you and yet dont really know you in any meaningfull way.

[MonkeyRonin]

I like living in the city for the exact reason that I don't have to deal with annoying neighbours. I couldn't imagine living in a small town or a suburb where you know everyone.

[aion26]

I keep hearing the phrase "suburban mentality" and I'm not sure what that means, growing up in the suburbs, I knew all my neighbors, lived across from a corner store that everyone bought milk and candy at between the weekly trips to the supermarket, my family often hung out in the front yard or went for walks just to see who was about, etc. We watched each other's kids and houses while when people were on vacation, etc.

Don't get me wrong, I have my qualms with how some suburbs are developed, but I'm still wondering what is meant by 'suburban mentality' because i've lived 18 years of my life in the 'burbs and 11 years of my life in the city proper, and my interactions with my neighborhood and neighbors aren't all that much different, granted I walk more here as I don't have a car, but I walked a lot there too, and in both places, I knew my neighbors, shoveled my snow, ran into people on the street I've known for years (I just ran into a guy I was friends with when I was a teenager on the street in wicker park just last month, and I'm in my 30's), and chatted with the person behind the counter at the corner store (although I don't buy as much candy now as I used to, I've switched to beer ;), and so on.

[Chicago103]

I keep hearing the phrase "suburban mentality" and I'm not sure what that means, growing up in the suburbs, I knew all my neighbors, lived across from a corner store that everyone bought milk and candy at between the weekly trips to the supermarket, my family often hung out in the front yard or went for walks just to see who was about, etc. We watched each other's kids and houses while when people were on vacation, etc.

Don't get me wrong, I have my qualms with how some suburbs are developed, but I'm still wondering what is meant by 'suburban mentality' because i've lived 18 years of my life in the 'burbs and 11 years of my life in the city proper, and my interactions with my neighborhood and neighbors aren't all that much different, granted I walk more here as I don't have a car, but I walked a lot there too, and in both places, I knew my neighbors, shoveled my snow, ran into people on the street I've known for years (I just ran into a guy I was friends with when I was a teenager on the street in wicker park just last month, and I'm in my 30's), and chatted with the person behind the counter at the corner store (although I don't buy as much candy now as I used to, I've switched to beer ;), and so on.

When I say "suburban mentality" I am refering to a mindset and not where people live, but there tends to be a correlation depending on what type of built environment you live in. Its also not just about personal behavior since someone living in a highly suburban setting has no choice, rather it is about people who even when giving other reliable options still choose to drive everywhere. Auto-centrism is the biggest part of the suburban mentality. Mainly people who cant comprehend getting around some other way besides automobile or taxi, those that will hail a taxi to go five blocks even in decent weather, low tolerance for walking and fear of public transit. In terms of transplants to the city its easier to get some suburbanities out of the suburbs but its harder to get the suburbs out of the suburbanite. I guess I also equate the suburban mentality with "bigger is better", living in big houses (especially people who are not truly rich but just want to show off) and driving big cars.

An urban minded person is one who in general values the convinience of location over living space and a suburban minded person values living space over location, they may have a desire to live in the city but the say they "cant afford it" because they couldnt afford a house big enough that they would want to live in, also the costs associated with car ownership and parking can turn them off. An urban minded person when faced with traffic and parking concerns will simply find an alternative way (public transit, etc.) to get downtown whereas a suburban minded person would simply cut down visits to downtown or stop all together and cite traffic and expensive parking as a reason for not going. Urban minded people who own cars (like many on here) have a pragmatic utilitarian view of it, such as they drive because they must or in doing a cost/benefit anaylsis its easier to drive than take public transit, and they advocate public transit expansion where it is lacking wheras suburban minded people view driving as the only option and if it becomes difficult to drive you simply dont go or you try to get the government to increase the supply or parking and build more roads.

Public vs. private benefits is another important one. What I mean by that is that a suburban minded person is more likely to value the material posessions inside thier own house and the location is secondary (aside from safety concerns and good schools perhaps) wheras an urban minded person values the attractions in their neighbrhood and city that everyone can use over what is inside their usually smaller dwellings. Suburban mindededs tend to be more of the home body types and urban mindeds are more engaged with their built environment.

[Buckeye Native 001]

Sometimes this borders on hate-mongering.

[rousseau]

Add the fact that the study also showed people were more comfortable around similar age, social class, standard of living, (race?)...
Uh, seeing as it quotes Mississauga as an example you may want to take your racist view off the table.
What the hell are you talking about? I was using an example of the typical, (yet candid) opinion of these ignorant and self-absorbed suburbanites who 'feel better' amongst their own.
Seeing as how Mississauga is the second most ethnically diverse patch of real estate on this planet after Scarborough, perhaps the race thing doesn't enter into it?

[Alta California]

Sometimes this borders on hate-mongering.

For sure. I've been around SoCal suburbs all my life. I immigrated to East SFV, a place certainly richer in "urbanism" like diversity, transit usage than some of the feted "creative cities" of Seattle, Portland, etc. What Chicago103 defines as a suburb is not recognizable in any objective measure, but an enumeration of things he hates and call THAT the "suburbs".

[Chicago103]

For sure. I've been around SoCal suburbs all my life. I immigrated to East SFV, a place certainly richer in "urbanism" like diversity, transit usage than some of the feted "creative cities" of Seattle, Portland, etc. What Chicago103 defines as a suburb is not recognizable in any objective measure, but an enumeration of things he hates and call THAT the "suburbs".

Thats why I create a distinction between suburbs and the suburban menrality and cities and the urban mentality. I also recognize that there are a thousand shades of grew between the two. If you have personal experiences with suburbs with a good dose of urbanism than good for you but I still feel that communities that are built by an urban minded population have more of a real sense of community than those built by a suburban minded population.