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feepa
Dec 27, 2006, 8:43 PM
Alberta the land of opportunity for more and more Canadians

In the last six years, nearly half a million people have moved to this province from elsewhere in the country


Richard Foot, CanWest News Service
Wednesday, December 27, 2006

Last January Louise LeBlanc and her husband Dave German packed their belongings, bid farewell to Nova Scotia and trekked 3,600 kilometres across the country to Calgary.

They left behind a good life in the small, coastal town of Meteghan, N.S., where Dave worked as a welder in a local shipyard, and Louise cooked meals for disabled adults. But, with its promise of sky-high wages, beckoned Alberta -- a place where the couple could sock away enough money for a comfortable retirement in 15 years.

Dave had six job offers in Alberta before he even arrived. Louise had three. Together they now earn twice what they once did on the East Coast.

What's more, their Calgary neighbourhood almost feels like home. Thirty other Nova Scotians have settled over the past year within two blocks of where Louise and Dave now rent a house, all lured by the cornucopia of fast jobs and fabulous money.

"I'm still shaking my head at what happens here," says Louise. "It's incredible. I think it's the best move we ever made."

Louise and her husband are part of a tidal wave of Canadians to move to Alberta in the last two years -- a pair of pilgrims on a great continental trek that has burgeoned into the largest mass migration in the nation's history.

Canada has seen larger movements of immigrants into the country before, particularly in the decades after the First and Second World Wars, when millions of foreigners flooded into Canada from Europe.

MIGRANTS FLOCKING IN

But never have so many people migrated internally from one part of Canada to another as they have done since 2001. In the last six years, 474,000 people -- 12 per cent of the province's existing population -- moved to Alberta from somewhere else in Canada.

The phenomenon took off in 2005, when more than 100,000 migrants arrived in a single year, according to the province's finance department.

In the first nine months of 2006, the most recent period for which figures are available, the great trek continued to gain pace, with 102,000 Canadians moving into the province. Between July and September, another 24,500 people from other provinces moved into Alberta, pushing its population up to 3,413,500 people.

Even when "net" figures are factored in -- the difference between incoming and outgoing migration -- 2005 and 2006 broke records. In 2005, net interprovincial migration to Alberta reached 51,000 people, the highest calendar-year number ever recorded for a single province until 2006, when, after only nine months, the number had reached 51,400.

Statistics Canada, which measures its figures across fiscal years, says between 2005-06, Alberta made a net gain of 57,000 interprovincial migrants. The closest any province has come to that was Ontario, with 46,000 net migrants in 1986-87, and Alberta with 45,900, during its last oil boom in 1980-81.

"We have not had interprovincial movement on this scale before," says Rod Beaujot, a demographer at the University of Western Ontario. "The number of internal migrants these last two years, the country has never seen anything like it."

The exodus is having a clear impact on many contributing provinces, with the exception of British Columbia. Although B.C. is one of the largest contributors of people to Alberta, B.C. still gains more interprovincial migrants than it loses.

The rest of the country doesn't fare so well. In the first nine months of 2006, every province except B.C. suffered large net losses of migrants to other parts of Canada, thanks to the flight of human labour to Alberta.

Ontario lost nearly 24,000 people during the first three quarters of 2006, while Atlantic Canada lost more than 10,000, Quebec lost more than 9,000, and Saskatchewan lost almost 5,000 people.

"The big reason of course is the oilsands expansion. That drives employment and demand for labour all over the province," says Harry Hiller, a sociologist at the University of Calgary, and director of the Alberta In-Migration Study.

Hiller says Alberta witnessed a similar wave of new arrivals during its last oil boom of the late 1970s and early 1980s. Yet that produced a more gentle migration wave, unlike 2005 "when all hell broke loose" and the number of net migrants jumped from 19,000 in 2004 to 51,000 the following year.

Another difference this time from 1980, says Hiller, is the arrival of migrants directly from Atlantic Canada, whose people have in the past settled mostly in Ontario before heading further west.

"Today they're bypassing Ontario and jumping right into Alberta," he says, "so that you now have huge communities in Alberta filled with people from the same regions of the east coast."

Hiller says the town of Brooks is filled with migrants from Newfoundland's Burin Peninsula, while Fort McMurray is a magnet for folks from Newfoundland's Northern Peninsula, and Calgary is now home to thousands of newcomers from St. John's.

"If somebody tells me where they come from in Newfoundland, I can tell you where they live in Alberta," Hiller says.

COST OF LIVING HIGHER HERE

What's harder to know is how long the current tide of migration will continue. Extraordinary housing prices in Alberta may temper the flow, especially from provinces where the cost of living is far more competitive.

Already there are signs that many migrants are forsaking a permanent move in favour of temporary work stints in the oilsands, sending their paycheques back east where their families still live.

This year a number of airlines launched special flights between cities on the East Coast and Fort McMurray. Air Canada also began marketing an "Oil Pass Express," a special fare for six one-way trips between Fort McMurray and the East Coast, designed for temporary oilsands migrants.

But, as the numbers make clear, tens of thousands more people are still moving into Alberta than are moving out. The Conference Board of Canada predicts that while the current deluge should slow somewhat, Alberta is likely to average a net gain of 30,000 migrants a year for the next quarter-century.

Those who have already made the move know they're part of something big.

Since coming to Calgary in January, Louise LeBlanc has welcomed dozens of fellow migrants from Nova Scotia's southwest shore, offering newcomers a place to stay before they can find their own home.

"It's weird being part of this movement," she says. "When my parents were young in Nova Scotia, they all went down to Boston after high school. That's where you went to make money. My mother keeps telling me it's the same thing now, only the destination is Alberta."

NO FUTURE IN SASKATCHEWAN

Tyler Smith, a 25-year-old engineer from Meadow Lake, Sask., traded his job in Saskatchewan's smaller oil industry for the better pay and bigger action of Fort McMurray, where he now works for OPTI Canada, an oilsands developer.

"All my friends have moved to Alberta as well as my entire family. There just didn't seem to be a future in Saskatchewan for me," he says.

Smith calls it "kind of neat" to be part of an historic mass movement of people, but says the deluge doesn't surprise him.
"I could stay in Saskatchewan and live on a small salary, drive a beat-up second-hand car and retire when I'm 65 on a small pension. Or I could live in Alberta, have a large salary, drive a brand-new car or truck and retire when I am 45 or 50 on a large savings or pension plan. It makes the decision pretty easy if you ask me."

Jordan and Julia Keller were more reluctant to leave Saskatchewan, where the young chemistry graduates worked hard to find decent-paying jobs in their fields. They eventually succeeded, but the arduous, frustrating job-hunt convinced them their careers would stand a much better chance in Alberta.

"If I looked for a job for six months in Regina," says Jordan, "I might find two to three chemistry-related jobs. But I'd have 40 other recent graduates, plus other more experienced people competing for them. On the other hand, if I went to the University of Calgary website right now I'd find 20 to 30 available jobs in the same field. That's the difference."

Both Jordan and his wife landed science jobs in the oil-and-gas sector after receiving multiple offers in Calgary. But what impresses Jordan most about Alberta is how much cash people can make without much education.

"You'll find high school dropouts on the oil rigs here making $20 to $30 an hour," he says. "It's really quite amazing how much money there is in this province."

As a schoolteacher, Jolene MacNeil never expected to make a lot of money, only enough to pay off her student debts and enjoy a decent income. But finding a job in the school system in her native Cape Breton, N.S., proved to be an impossible challenge for a young teacher looking for her first break.

Her life changed at an education job fair in Prince Edward Island, where she was hired on the spot by visiting recruiters from the Catholic school board in Fort McMurray. Her starting salary was almost twice what she would have earned in Nova Scotia, and she was offered a full-time job teaching any grade level she wanted.

In September, after a year in Alberta, MacNeil won a prestigious provincewide award for excellence in first-year teaching.

"It's interesting being part of this big westward migration," she says.

"I really miss Cape Breton. It was sad to leave. But what alternative do people like myself have? You have to go where you can make some money, pay off your loans, and have a career."

EVEN TEENS MAKE BIG BUCKS

Although she's thrilled to be working in Fort McMurray, MacNeil says she'll never get used to the fact that some teenagers in the city earn more money working summer jobs in the oilsands than their schoolteachers make all year.

But then every migrant has their own strange tales from the front lines of the Alberta boom.

Lousie LeBlanc says she was literally "begged" to take on a job with a Calgary catering company.

Jordan Keller says he has colleagues who migrated from Ontario, whose teenage children had their moving expenses paid by grocery store chains, desperate to fill jobs at their Calgary locations.

"Imagine a grocery store paying its staff to transfer to another province. It's mind-boggling," he says. "I think this is something that we'll look back on one day and be able to tell our kids: 'I moved to Alberta in this big cross-country migration. I was there during this crazy time.'"

SpongeG
Dec 27, 2006, 11:03 PM
oil has always paid well

when i finished high school i worked at an oil refinery for the summer and in two months made over $6000 and thi was back in 89

i know my brother is in alberta and pretty much all the people who work for him and with him come from elsewhere - saskatchewan, manitoba etc. but they get brought in and out so they never set up home in alberta

i wonder how those kind of people factor into the numbers

Doug
Dec 27, 2006, 11:32 PM
^Not true. I worked the rigs the summer of '91 for just under $9/hr plus $30/day living expenses. I slept in my car to save money,

SpongeG
Dec 27, 2006, 11:47 PM
well depends what company you get in

i was getting $14.12 an hour to basically stand around collect garbage once a week etc.

jobs only went to kids of the refinaries employees

malek
Dec 28, 2006, 1:14 AM
WOW

"NO FUTURE IN SASKATCHEWAN"

with such claims i can't even bother reading it.

Arriviste
Dec 28, 2006, 1:21 AM
/\ Wow, you admit to your ignorance. Awesome. My work here is done. You've made it easy.

Good call Malek, whenever something doesn't seem right, rather than actually taking the time to assess, just make the judgement and call her a day. Really, the way any intellectual approachs a situation.

:haha: :haha:

Those are just for you buddy. Your favourite smiley.

EDIT: Damn, Im being a Jerk again. I've been on a tear lately. Not a good one either. The first step is admiting you have a problem.

malek
Dec 28, 2006, 1:48 AM
The subject doesn't interest me anyways, so with such claims it makes my life easier :)

Arriviste
Dec 28, 2006, 2:06 AM
Why'd you bother clicking on it? Just to make a (weak) smart ass remark? Way to go dude, youve proven your worth once again.

Dalreg
Dec 28, 2006, 2:32 AM
Yep all of us still left are waiting for our turn on the Bus. NOT! Nice generalization one person has no future? in Saskatchewan so that is the heading for the whole section? What about the recent reversal of Saskatchewan people migrating back home. NO FUTURE IN ALBERTA!

All this article is is another Western boosterism, much like what happened in the early 1900's.

ReginaGuy
Dec 28, 2006, 2:39 AM
same old boring garbage article that depicts Alberta as some magical paradise where everything is made out of honey.

There's no future in Saskatchewan? Then why are so many people moving back?

That engineer didn't think things through very well by the sounds of it. It's not like engineers are starving in Saskatchewan, they make plenty of cash. And you may be able to retire at the age of 50 in Alberta, but you'll be paying your $8000/mo mortgage until the day you die

And on a side note: what happens when the oil boom ends and the province is full of people who dropped out of highschool to work in the oil rigs, or make $20/h at mcdonalds?

Lead
Dec 28, 2006, 2:54 AM
There was just a thing on CBC about how lots of young couples are moving back to Saskatchewan because the quality of life is higher and there are more opportunities there now.

vid
Dec 28, 2006, 3:51 AM
This is a story from CanWest. :)

At least their grammar is decent this time. :)

Claeren
Dec 28, 2006, 4:00 AM
They are moving back because of the incrediable wealth they have already generated in Alberta.

If you moved here 2 years ago from SASK, right out of university, you can now move back as a 26 year old with 300k+ in equity and a few years of professional experience. Enough to buy a COUPLE houses mortgage free and secure good employment.

It is a no brainer that people like that are moving back.



Claeren.

WhipperSnapper
Dec 28, 2006, 6:01 AM
same old boring garbage article that depicts Alberta as some magical paradise where everything is made out of honey.


not honey, but money which does for many people have magical properites

Doug
Dec 28, 2006, 6:22 AM
Western Canada comes of age

DAVID EBNER

Globe and Mail Update

Calgary — The balance of power in Canada tilted westward this year, and two key numbers tell the story of the changing economic landscape.

The population of British Columbia and Alberta rose to 7.69 million, according to Statistics Canada; Quebec's stood at 7.65 million.

“It's a symbolic turning point we reached in 2006, that Alberta and B.C.'s combined population is now greater than Quebec's,” said Todd Hirsch, chief economist of the Canada West Foundation.

It was the year when the West, particularly Alberta, had a greater impact on the country's economy than ever before and generated more attention than ever, as well. A Calgarian, Stephen Harper, became Prime Minister, and the conversation at cocktail parties in Toronto and elsewhere often veered to talk of soaring real estate prices in Calgary and the raging oil market.

The booming energy business, with the epicentre in the oil sands, has underpinned wild growth — an estimated 7-per-cent leap in Alberta's gross domestic product. The effect is broad. Commodity prices, notably oil and natural gas, have helped drive the Canadian dollar higher, causing challenges in Ontario's manufacturing sector.

And with one province and region doing so much better than the rest, the year of Western power has changed Canada's human geography, with Alberta and B.C. pulling in people from across the country.

But the boom has brought tremendous stress to the West.

Alberta has been hit the hardest by the growing pains. Thousands of homeless people are on the street in Calgary, a city whose population surpassed one million in 2006 and whose traffic is continually snarled. A major shortage of workers is hurting service and slowing multibillion-dollar energy projects.

And with a planned $100-billion in oil sands developments over the next decade, which would make the region one of the biggest crude suppliers in the world, the difficult challenges of environmental stewardship will become more pressing.

The labour situation is expected to worsen, and Ottawa recently eased rules specifically for Alberta and B.C. to import foreign labour, but the situation remains difficult. BMO Nesbitt Burns forecasts Alberta's unemployment rate to fall to 2.9 per cent in 2008 from an estimated 3.4 per cent this year.

Despite the challenges, the mood is buoyant in the West, the region enjoying its new prominence within Canada. George Gosbee, chief executive officer of Tristone Capital Inc., an energy investment dealer, said Calgary draws international attention, pointing to diverse investors in the oil sands, a growing group that spans the globe.

“Calgary has helped put Canada on the map as a global energy powerhouse,” Mr. Gosbee said.

With the growth, Calgary has also grown up. A quarter century ago, at the peak of the previous boom, the city was something of a frontier town. Today, it is a major centre.

“My sense is Calgary's rapidly coming of age as a city, an economic driver and a thought leader in Canada,” said Colin Jackson, CEO of the Epcor Centre for the Performing Arts. “It's highly subjective, but I have noticed a shift in the last few months. It certainly feels like the centre of gravity of public conversion has shifted significantly away from the sharp elbows of resentment of the East that some people here had, to much more of a sense that we're highly privileged people and our obligation is to lead.”

People migrating to the West come to chase economic opportunity, whether it is the booming construction industry in B.C. ahead of the 2010 Winter Olympics in Vancouver or the oil and natural gas boom in Alberta and northeast B.C.

In terms of economic output, the gross domestic product of Alberta and B.C. is already 40 per cent greater than Quebec's, and growth in the Canada's two westernmost provinces is the highest in the country. The trend is expected to hold through 2008, according to BMO Nesbitt Burns, which called the situation “Canada's great divide,” with oil and natural gas wealth driving the West's success.

In September, Statscan said Alberta's growth is the strongest “ever recorded” by a Canadian province.

“Barring a severe collapse in energy prices, it's hard to see Alberta anywhere but No. 1,” said Douglas Porter, deputy chief economist at BMO Nesbitt Burns.

The energy numbers behind the boom are big. Oil hit a nominal record of nearly $80 (U.S.) a barrel in 2006, driving unprecedented development around Fort McMurray. Natural gas is also strong, despite falling from a record in late 2005.

Alberta and B.C. are also driving forward as a team, another factor for the rest of Canada. The B.C.-Alberta Trade, Investment and Labour Mobility Agreement begins to take effect in 2007, creating something of a free-trade zone. Critics have said it gives corporations too much power but the provinces say it will eliminate trade barriers.

Another symbol of the ascension of the West in Canada is the proposed $1-billion (Canadian) EnCana Corp. headquarters, dubbed the Bow, set to be ready in 2011. The 59-storey crescent-shaped tower will stand 247 metres, the tallest building in Canada west of Toronto. The Bow, Mayor Dave Bronconnier said at its October unveiling, will be “a landmark that defines Calgary.”

Attached to the tower will be a building of six or seven storeys, designed to house cultural institutions. In December, some of Western Canada's new political clout was revealed. The National Portrait Gallery, which had been planned for Ottawa, is expected to be housed in the adjunct to The Bow. It would be the first national museum located outside of Ottawa.

drew
Dec 28, 2006, 6:28 AM
This article doesn't tell us anything we don't already know.

For me, Alberta will probably remain a good place to visit. The housing markets in Edmonton and Calgary are approaching the ridiculous.

The payscale differences between MB and AB for my "DINK" household (engineer and teacher) aren't nearly large enough to make it a worthwhile move.

Had I moved there 5 years ago though...

Xelebes
Dec 28, 2006, 6:49 AM
Yep all of us still left are waiting for our turn on the Bus. NOT! Nice generalization one person has no future? in Saskatchewan so that is the heading for the whole section? What about the recent reversal of Saskatchewan people migrating back home. NO FUTURE IN ALBERTA!

All this article is is another Western boosterism, much like what happened in the early 1900's.


The current reversal is something that is going to happen, not something that has happened.

People who emigrated to Alberta in the last five years saw little to no opportunity in Saskatchewan. But that is now changing as the job vacancy pandemic spreads into Saskatchewan.

1ajs
Dec 28, 2006, 6:54 AM
thank god my grandma lives on 25th ave 11 stories up :haha:

harls
Dec 28, 2006, 12:33 PM
I swear there's a template for these types of articles..

circle33
Dec 28, 2006, 4:17 PM
One native Albertan making the move east. I detect a trend:


Alberta's loss is Sask.'s gain

CanWest News Service; Calgary Herald
Published: Thursday, December 28, 2006

CALGARY -- Looking to escape Calgary traffic jams and skyrocketing costs, Steve Holczer packed up his family and moved them last August to a tiny city of just 5,500 in Saskatchewan.

"Everybody out here calls Calgary the rat race," said the 29-year-old electrician and father of two children aged six and three, who relocated to Humboldt, 113 kilometres east of Saskatoon.

Holczer is already sold on Saskatchewan despite being born and raised in Airdrie, a community that skirts Calgary's limits. Unlike others who are leaving the big, booming oil city behind for quieter pastures to the east, Holczer wasn't returning to his Saskatchewan roots.

Figures from Statistics Canada show that while the flood of migrants to Alberta continued to accelerate in the third quarter, the number of people leaving the province has also picked up sharply.

Some analysts believe the increased departures may be because of skyrocketing costs in Alberta, which has posted the highest inflation in the country for years and experienced housing-price gains that have topped 40 per cent in a single year.

Statistics Canada said between July and September, 22,800 people left Alberta -- a 36 per cent increase from the same period a year earlier -- with many going to Saskatchewan and British Columbia.

"Despite Alberta's booming economy, many people are moving out of the province" Statistics Canada said. "While the majority of those leaving Alberta went to British Columbia, departures from Alberta have benefitted Saskatchewan the most," said Statistics Canada, as the flow of 2,400 Albertans eastward in the third quarter of 2005 gushed to 3,700 in the latest period.

Saskatchewan Premier Lorne Calvert plans to step up his province's efforts to poach Alberta workers, using traditional public relations efforts such as billboards and bus ads to sell people on Saskatchewan.

He hasn't ruled out opening a store-front office in Calgary, a suggestion made by the Saskatchewan party.

Dan Kelly, of the Canadian Federation of Business in Calgary, said the Alberta government should take note of Saskatchewan's efforts to lure Albertans east.

"I think it is something Alberta needs to take reasonably seriously. The fact is, the Saskatchewan economy is, at the moment, very strong," said Kelly.


Linky-Poo (http://www.canada.com/saskatoonstarphoenix/news/business/story.html?id=301f8b57-d896-41c8-8ab2-872a641dd188)

Dalreg
Dec 28, 2006, 6:07 PM
To be fair circle33 the man mentioned in the article was born and raised in Alberta but his wife was originally from the Humboldt area, and she still has relatives here.

But yep a trend has started and next year the wave will roll into Saskatchewan.

Jay in Cowtown
Dec 28, 2006, 6:55 PM
Hope all these people selling out and heading to Sask made enough on their houses to retire!!!

ReginaGuy
Dec 28, 2006, 7:20 PM
The current reversal is something that is going to happen, not something that has happened.

actually, it already is happening, look at this chart and compare 2005 and 2006 for Sask
http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/061221/c061221e.gif

feepa
Dec 28, 2006, 7:28 PM
actually, it already is happening, look at this chart and compare 2005 and 2006 for Sask
http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/061221/c061221e.gif

Ok, so although the tide is changing a bit, its still positive in growth for Alberta, Loss to Sask...
looks like for every 1 person that moves back to Sask, 2 move to Alberta from..

malek
Dec 28, 2006, 8:17 PM
actually the stats are that for every 3 persons moving to Alberta, 2 are moving out (all provinces combined).

feepa
Dec 28, 2006, 9:20 PM
actually the stats are that for every 3 persons moving to Alberta, 2 are moving out (all provinces combined).
Well, thanks for your insight on this. I was only referring to Saskatchewan, to respond to the previous poster.

Once again, thank you very much. Merci Beaucoup.

shreddog
Dec 28, 2006, 9:28 PM
actually the stats are that for every 3 persons moving to Alberta, 2 are moving out (all provinces combined).
While true for Alberta, remember that in BC, for every person that moved there, almost 1 person moved out (+245K, -242K).

Of course, it could be worse. For Ontario, slightly more than 1 person moved out than moved in (+321K vs. -332K), and then there's Quebec, where for every person that moved there more than 1.1 people left (+121K, -138K).

I guess that 2 leaving for every 3 arriving is not only "not bad", but since it's significantly better than the other big 4, perhaps it really is a good sign of how happy people are once they arrive in Alberta??

malek
Dec 28, 2006, 9:54 PM
The bottom line is good for Alberta, but it also means, many moved in and moved back for x y z reasons, not as perfect as some media puts it.

Cabbage
Dec 28, 2006, 10:27 PM
The bottom line is good for Alberta, but it also means, many moved in and moved back for x y z reasons, not as perfect as some media puts it.


What I think you are seeing, is the early adopters from Nfld, Man, etc.... that came here are now selling there properties for way above what they paid for and are going back home to live an easy debt free lifestyle.

Cab

shreddog
Dec 28, 2006, 10:34 PM
Well the media do have a habit of sensentializing things. That said, intraprovincial migration has always been high in Canada. As you say, there are many reasons why people move - which is actually a good thing since it implies that canadians enjoy such a high degree of mobility.

That said, it cannot be ignored that since the other 3 of the big 4 have in/out migration numbers that are almost the same it is very impressive that Alberta can have such a large net gain. While some people do believe that this flow often turns negative and people "return" home, the truth is that the trend over the past 50 years would indicate otherwise.

240glt
Dec 28, 2006, 10:48 PM
I've been in Alberta for five years now, and I know I've just about had enough. Yes, lots of opportunity, lots of money, but really I am getting tired of how impatient people are, how people throw around money like it grows on trees and spend like crazy (I don't like rampant consumerism)

I wouldn't move back to Calgary now... it's too expensive and too busy. Edmonton is rapidly getting to be that way. I have begun plotting my escape back to BC, where my wage will be 2/3 of what it is now and my quality of life will be much much better.

samne
Dec 28, 2006, 11:22 PM
Didnt I read this article last week or maybe the week before?

But really, its great to see we're filling in the gaps.

Waterlooson
Dec 28, 2006, 11:28 PM
.... but it also means, many moved in and moved back for x y z reasons, not as perfect as some media puts it.

Actually the stats mean nothing of the sort. You are simply putting your own spin on the figures. There are people born in Alberta who moved to Ontario (or elsewhere in Canada) for university or work - perhaps only temporarily - even though they enjoyed life in Alberta. There are others who moved to Alberta and then moved to a 3rd province.... the stats say nothing about which permutations are predominant or about the motivation for moving. I know people who were transfered (job) out of Alberta (to Ontario) and just hate it there and would like to move back to Alberta.

Xelebes
Dec 28, 2006, 11:52 PM
actually, it already is happening, look at this chart and compare 2005 and 2006 for Sask
http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/061221/c061221e.gif

Not exactly what I was saying.

I am saying it is only beginning to happen - it hasn't quite happened yet. Unlike the migration into Alberta which has happened and is happening.

LordMandeep
Dec 29, 2006, 12:51 AM
clearly that graph shows most people are just going to Alberta to make a quick dollar then to move forever.

Waterlooson
Dec 29, 2006, 1:09 AM
clearly that graph shows most people are just going to Alberta to make a quick dollar then to move forever.

Surely you jest?:jester:

It would be closer to the truth to say that people are getting out of Ontario because they can no longer make a quick (or slow) buck.

Lead
Dec 29, 2006, 1:44 AM
It kind of looks like people just go to Alberta to get rich and not for the quality of life. I mean there isn't anything really special about Alberta so when the quality of life isn't good people have no reason to stay.

vid
Dec 29, 2006, 1:47 AM
Thunder Bay loses three people a day. :)

I don't know where they're going, and as long as it isn't Sudbury I don't care.

Claeren
Dec 29, 2006, 1:52 AM
It kind of looks like people just go to Alberta to get rich and not for the quality of life. I mean there isn't anything really special about Alberta so when the quality of life isn't good people have no reason to stay.


Wow.... this coming from someone living in SURREY of all places! Yeish! :jester:


Claeren.

Lead
Dec 29, 2006, 2:05 AM
Unless you live here don't say shit. Surrey is fine it just has a bad reputation.

Wooster
Dec 29, 2006, 2:12 AM
People are talking like it is some sort of new trend for people to move to places of prosperity and opportunity. That is the only reason for 90% of people to move anywhere. Always has been. North America itself was a frontier. Now places like Alberta and BC are the frontier within the larger frontier.

Alberta is a place of opportunity right now. Many will stay, some will not. My parents are like many others, they moved here over 30 years ago from Ontario, never looked back.

LordMandeep
Dec 29, 2006, 2:14 AM
i say that because anyone i met there said they are coming back.

Claeren
Dec 29, 2006, 2:17 AM
i say that because anyone i met there said they are coming back.

Um... you know that like half of Calgary is from Toronto, right?

My entire extended family moved here in 1989. I work in two offices where at least 50% moved from Toronto with their families over the past 25 years.


NO ONE i have met would move back. No one has moved back. The only exceptions i know of are people like Josh who go back for school and then move back here for the jobs...




Claeren.

Wooster
Dec 29, 2006, 2:17 AM
I think the numbers over the years suggest that far more people stay then leave. The quality of life of Alberta outstanding. Great public education, great healthcare, clean air, healthy cities, great natural landscapes, high standards of living. Who could argue this?

Edit: Claeren. I was born and raised in Calgary. I only went to Queen's because I got a nice fat scholarship, and they enthusiastically recruited me, which made me feel special. :) I like Ontario a lot, don't get me wrong. Just having grown up where I have, I prefer the lifestyle of Calgary.

Claeren
Dec 29, 2006, 2:19 AM
Unless you live here don't say shit. Surrey is fine it just has a bad reputation.


I have been to Surrey.

The people i was staying with couldn't come pick me up at the airport because their car had been stolen the night before.

They too insisted it wasn't that bad, but at least they had a qualifier, they lived on the border with White Rock. They certainly were not going further then that in their excuses...


Calgary (like most/all major Canadian cities) certainly has redeeming lifestyle features that define the city - to suggest otherwise is frikkin ignorant. I am sure even Surrey has something going for it... (Maybe that it is next to Vancouver? :D )



Claeren.

shreddog
Dec 29, 2006, 2:23 AM
I mean there isn't anything really special about Alberta so when the quality of life isn't good people have no reason to stay


Unless you live here don't say shit.

Not sure if you are just that witty or that dense - so I guess that unless you also live in Alberta, you too shouldn't say shit!

Seriously, as Josh said (and I stated earlier) since people can freely move around in Canada, they have always moved to where they believe they can live a better life. And this often times means moving to where the jobs are. Many people have been and are now moving to Alberta for the opportunity to better themselves. Some love it here and stay regardless. Some do very well here, but move back/on anyway for a multitude of reasons. Some don't do well and chase the next rainbow. Some don't like it at all and get the hell out ASAP. But guess what? This also applies to everywhere else in Canada.

Just because things are booming in Alberta right now and the population is growing like a weed doesn't detract from any other region in Canada. I never could understand why people elsewhere believe this is a zero sum game? By Alberta and BC growing economically stronger, Canada as a whole is better.

FTR, I first moved to Calgary in '94. Since then I have moved away for work to the centre of London and the beaches of California. Had other chances to move to other great places with work. But I've always come back to Calgary because I love it here and haven't found a better lifestyle anywhere else. But that's just me.

LordMandeep
Dec 29, 2006, 2:25 AM
Its the article, its is giving the image like Toronto is getting empty and everyone in Toronto is talking about moving to Calgary.

well this has happened before.Wherever thye jobs are people go. of

shreddog
Dec 29, 2006, 2:46 AM
i say that because anyone i met there said they are coming back.
BTW, though we haven't formally met, let me introduce myself:

I grew up in Toronto/Ontario, still own a house there, have friends and family there, own recreation property there, have business interests there, visit at least 4 times a year, and love Ontario very much. That said, I HAVE NO INTENTION OF EVER MOVING BACK.

There, now not everyone you met here says they are coming back.

Dalreg
Dec 29, 2006, 2:57 AM
BTW, though we haven't formally met, let me introduce myself:

I grew up in Toronto/Ontario, still own a house there, have friends and family there, own recreation property there, have business interests there, visit at least 4 times a year, and love Ontario very much. That said, I HAVE NO INTENTION OF EVER MOVING BACK.

There, now not everyone you met here says they are coming back.

But you still haven't actually introduced yourself yet. Whats your name?:jester:

LordMandeep
Dec 29, 2006, 2:59 AM
okay okay, only the people i met say they are coming back.


However in Ontario the migration to Alberta is having really zero effect to the GTA.
I know a lot of people are leaving to Alberta from Toronto but our immigration is still so high that we still grow at a high rate. My city, Brampton went from 325k to 435k in 5 years and its expected to grow to 700k by 2031. Toronto still grows at 25-30k a year and its expected to top 3 million in the 2020's. The projected growth is 3.1 million for Toronto by 2031.

So its all good here, as immigration keeps going will likley keep the GTA growing and prosperous for a long time. GTA is at 6 million people and its expected to go to 8-9 million in next 30 or so years.

Its in Nothern Ontario where there is no one to replace the people that left,so they are the ones getting hurt hard.

I will introduce myself. I was Born and raised just outside of Toronto. Went on a huge tour of the country 2-3 years back, vistied Alberta then as well. Liked it a lot, the jobs are nice, but to set up a whole new life is to much for me.

Some people think nothing is going on here in Toronto, like everything is going on in Calgary and that everyone is leaving here to go to Alberta. Not true, Toronto has the largest condo market in North America. With over 35000 to 36000 condos expected to be sold from Jan 2005 to Dec 2006.

401_King
Dec 29, 2006, 3:28 AM
GTA is a monster and will always grow.

LordMandeep
Dec 29, 2006, 3:33 AM
True, some people think nothing is going down here.


Toronto to me is like becoming like the New York Metro area. Some nice suburbs some ugly useless suburbs with a huge downtown, but with other suburban downtowns.

I am saying that becuase when was on the Empire state building last Tuesday, it sort of reminded of the view from the Cn tower but x10 of course.


Anyways back on topic, the three main areas that will grow into huge areas is the area from

Toronto to Hamilton to K-W to Barrie to Oshawa
Vancouver area
Calgary-Edmonton. ( They won'y grow into each other but it includes both cities)

malek
Dec 29, 2006, 3:45 AM
Actually the stats mean nothing of the sort. You are simply putting your own spin on the figures. There are people born in Alberta who moved to Ontario (or elsewhere in Canada) for university or work - perhaps only temporarily - even though they enjoyed life in Alberta. There are others who moved to Alberta and then moved to a 3rd province.... the stats say nothing about which permutations are predominant or about the motivation for moving. I know people who were transfered (job) out of Alberta (to Ontario) and just hate it there and would like to move back to Alberta.

and thats _your_ spin.

Stats mean nothing by themselves unless there's a tentative of an explanation.

Waterlooson
Dec 29, 2006, 3:50 AM
and thats _your_ spin.

Stats mean nothing by themselves unless there's a tentative of an explanation.

No, it's not my spin, it's the simple fact. You read things into the raw figures and I called you on it.

Let this be a lesson to you: you can't make the province of Quebec better by putting down some other place.

malek
Dec 29, 2006, 3:55 AM
thats another of your spins?

don't put words in my mouth.

Waterlooson
Dec 29, 2006, 4:06 AM
thats another of your spins?

don't put words in my mouth.

Since you apparently have forgotten, this is what you said, "The bottom line is good for Alberta, but it also means, many moved in and moved back for x y z reasons, not as perfect as some media puts it."

The stats don't state that the people who moved out of Alberta are returning to their province of origin, you made that inference on your own.... and you also suggested that this is because something is wrong with Alberta. All I was saying is that those stats don't suggest any of this....

Claeren
Dec 29, 2006, 5:15 AM
okay okay, only the people i met say they are coming back.


However in Ontario the migration to Alberta is having really zero effect to the GTA.
I know a lot of people are leaving to Alberta from Toronto but our immigration is still so high that we still grow at a high rate. My city, Brampton went from 325k to 435k in 5 years and its expected to grow to 700k by 2031. Toronto still grows at 25-30k a year and its expected to top 3 million in the 2020's. The projected growth is 3.1 million for Toronto by 2031.

So its all good here, as immigration keeps going will likley keep the GTA growing and prosperous for a long time. GTA is at 6 million people and its expected to go to 8-9 million in next 30 or so years.

Its in Nothern Ontario where there is no one to replace the people that left,so they are the ones getting hurt hard.

I will introduce myself. I was Born and raised just outside of Toronto. Went on a huge tour of the country 2-3 years back, vistied Alberta then as well. Liked it a lot, the jobs are nice, but to set up a whole new life is to much for me.

Some people think nothing is going on here in Toronto, like everything is going on in Calgary and that everyone is leaving here to go to Alberta. Not true, Toronto has the largest condo market in North America. With over 35000 to 36000 condos expected to be sold from Jan 2005 to Dec 2006.



I was born in Toronto General Hospital. Lived in N.York, Richmond, Thornhill, and Ajax (and also London) before moving with my family to Calgary where we have been ever since.

Just as a little fyi... lol...




Claeren.

malek
Dec 29, 2006, 5:32 AM
are you like that in real life? putting words in others mouth all the time and jumping at their throats for no reason?

Nothing's wrong with Alberta, its just that media make such sensationalist claims that they make it sound paradise on Earth. Your mileage may vary.

I just find it weird that 250k left Alberta from 2001-2005 which was the most prosperous period I know of, or maybe ever? While the other 3 bigger provinces (ONT, QC, BC) saw 333k, 139k and 242k respectively of their citizens leave to other provinces.

Lead
Dec 29, 2006, 6:26 AM
Well the oil boom is starting to affect Saskatchewan now too so I would expect some people to move there as well.

I'm really happy for Alberta and love everything that is happening there I just don't really like it when they slag the rest of Canada, it's like we aren't worthy of any economic power whatsoever.

Also whats going on with NFL, apparantly their economy is doing great but people are still leaving. Why is that?

CMD UW
Dec 29, 2006, 7:51 AM
Here's the deal, some people will move here and stay, while others will move back. As our province becomes increasingly expensive to live (particularly Calgary and Edmonton), the benefit of moving here will decrease. We are already starting to see this happen. Is it beneficial for a new graduate to move to Alberta to make $20,000/30,000 more than he/she would in Saskatchewan or Manitoba when the cost of living and housing is much, much higher? From a numbers perspective, Alberta loses its advantage.

Taller Better
Dec 29, 2006, 3:51 PM
NO ONE i have met would move back. No one has moved back. The only exceptions i know of are people like Josh who go back for school and then move back here for the jobs...
.


And I've known lots of people who moved to Alberta and BC and then moved back East. But that is just annecdotal evidence. Statistics are the only way we can judge the truth.
Plus, let's be honest. When people from Ontario move to Alberta, they learn pretty quickly to downplay the fact that they are Easterners, and probably would never say in a social setting that they wanted to move back to Ontario. That would be, socially, the kiss of death. At least it was like that when I lived out West. I don't remember people from Toronto ever getting a particularily friendly reception.

shreddog
Dec 29, 2006, 4:07 PM
^^ And many people I know that have moved to Toronto over the years have left (moved back or on). What does that say???

Seriously, you are right, using statistics is possibly the best way to analyse this. And as I showed earlier, during the past 5 years more people left Ontario than moved there. Take from that what you will.

Canada is a free country that allows and encourages the free movement of people. Again, if we look at the big 4 provinces, for the most part in BC, Ont and QC, in and out migration are pretty much the same. BC may have slightly more people moving in, whereas Ont and QC have slightly more people moving out, but basically there is not a huge gap.

Only AB has significantly more people moving in than moving out. Based on the advice of the many people not living in Alberta - but experts none the less - with opinions on the subject, this is due solely to the lack of uhauls or moving vans, since "Obviously someone is fibbing because not everyone stays."

BTW, TallerBetter, when was it that moved East? 1978 or so? Obviously things haven't changed much since then, right?

Dalreg
Dec 29, 2006, 4:09 PM
And I've known lots of people who moved to Alberta and BC and then moved back East. But that is just annecdotal evidence. Statistics are the only way we can judge the truth.
Plus, let's be honest. When people from Ontario move to Alberta, they learn pretty quickly to downplay the fact that they are Easterners, and probably would never say in a social setting that they wanted to move back to Ontario. That would be, socially, the kiss of death. At least it was like that when I lived out West. I don't remember people from Toronto ever getting a particularily friendly reception.

The truth is now Calgary residents aren't particularily welcome in My area of Saskatchewan. Over the holidays lots of Alberta came home to Saskatchewan and I can tell you at least two bar fights occured involving Calgarians in my home town. Walk in act like your shit don't stick and they got a Saskatchewan welcome.

Folks have to learn to keep their mouths shout sometimes.

shreddog
Dec 29, 2006, 4:13 PM
When people from Ontario move to Alberta, they learn pretty quickly to downplay the fact that they are Easterners, and probably would never say in a social setting that they wanted to move back to Ontario.
Pluzzz! That is utter BS. I have never downplayed the fact that I am from Ontario or that I own a house in Toronto. 4 years ago I had a great job opporuntity in Ontario and we seriously thought of moving. We told many friends about this as sit was a tough decision for us. None of them disowned us or struck us off their Christmas card list. And throughout our house we have pictures of where we plan to retire - in QUEBEC. AHHHHHHH!!

Seeing as most people in Calgary are from somewhere else - and for many that is Ontario - why would they downplay where they came from?

Again, please do not continue these idiotic and false stereotypes. Your claim is akin to the 905er's saying that gun crime is rampant on Yonge street.

Taller Better
Dec 29, 2006, 4:56 PM
Pluzzz! That is utter BS. I have never downplayed the fact that I am from Ontario or that I own a house in Toronto. 4 years ago I had a great job opporuntity in Ontario and we seriously thought of moving. We told many friends about this as sit was a tough decision for us. None of them disowned us or struck us off their Christmas card list. And throughout our house we have pictures of where we plan to retire - in QUEBEC. AHHHHHHH!!

Seeing as most people in Calgary are from somewhere else - and for many that is Ontario - why would they downplay where they came from?

Again, please do not continue these idiotic and false stereotypes. Your claim is akin to the 905er's saying that gun crime is rampant on Yonge street.

Yeah, whatever shreddog. Your personal experience is the only personal experience that counts. It is all about you.

"Again, please do not continue these idiotic and false stereotypes"

DON'T call me an idiot again. I have lived in Western and Eastern Canada and have a right to my opinion.
If you are uncomfortable with that and have difficulty accepting different viewpoints than your own, put me on 'ignore'.

feepa
Dec 29, 2006, 5:25 PM
True, some people think nothing is going down here.


Toronto to me is like becoming like the New York Metro area. Some nice suburbs some ugly useless suburbs with a huge downtown, but with other suburban downtowns.

I am saying that becuase when was on the Empire state building last Tuesday, it sort of reminded of the view from the Cn tower but x10 of course.


Anyways back on topic, the three main areas that will grow into huge areas is the area from

Toronto to Hamilton to K-W to Barrie to Oshawa
Vancouver area
Calgary-Edmonton. ( They won'y grow into each other but it includes both cities)

For Cal-Edm Corridor,
I dont think much will grow in the spanse between Airdire - Red Deer and then Red-deer - Leduc, at least on the QEII HWY 2 Corridor. The cities themselves will expand

feepa
Dec 29, 2006, 5:30 PM
The truth is now Calgary residents aren't particularily welcome in My area of Saskatchewan. Over the holidays lots of Alberta came home to Saskatchewan and I can tell you at least two bar fights occured involving Calgarians in my home town. Walk in act like your shit don't stick and they got a Saskatchewan welcome.

Folks have to learn to keep their mouths shout sometimes.

sounds like a nice town, and if your judging your towns attitude towards others on 2 bar fights.... well... LOL!

shreddog
Dec 29, 2006, 5:31 PM
Yeah, whatever shreddog. Your personal experience is the only personal experience that counts. It is all about you.

"Again, please do not continue these idiotic and false stereotypes"

DON'T call me an idiot again. I have lived in Western and Eastern Canada and have a right to my opinion.
If you are uncomfortable with that and have difficulty accepting different viewpoints than your own, put me on 'ignore'.
Ah, read again. I did not call you an idiot - I said the stereotype was.

Just like I tell my inlaws in Burlington that their views of Yonge street being gun ridden are an idiotic stereotype, I will tell you that your mistaken views of life in Calgary are idiotic.

Again, when did you last live in Calgary??

While my experiences are my own, I would like to see evidence of your claim that when people move here from the east they downplay where they came from. I could go on at great lengths at how people out talk fondly about where they came from as most people miss many things from their home.

BTW, since you were the one who brought their personal experiences first, why are you so fast to belittle mine?? Is it that only your experiences are the ones that count? I only presented my experiences to counter some of the hyperboyle presented by others. I guess the only valid evidence right now is second hand "I know the friend of a aunt who hated Calgary and moved back". Funny thing is that Calgary is growing by leaps and bounds, so someone must fibbing.

Again, as you said earlier statistics tell alot, and now the say that over the past 5 years significantly more people have moved to Alberta than have left.

Finally, TallerBetter, since it has been over 10 years that I have really lived in Toronto, I would certainly never profess to tell anyone who currently lives there "what Toronto is really like". (BTW, I do love Toronto).

So I ask you one more time, WHEN DID YOU LAST LIVE IN CALGARY??

WhipperSnapper
Dec 29, 2006, 5:34 PM
damn north is always, statistically , pulling us down

WhipperSnapper
Dec 29, 2006, 5:40 PM
gotta side with shreddog on this one

at no point did I receive any slack for saying I'm from Toronto in Calgary unlike say ... Ottawa and, to a lesser degree, BC

Dalreg
Dec 29, 2006, 7:06 PM
sounds like a nice town, and if your judging your towns attitude towards others on 2 bar fights.... well... LOL!

The only two incidents in the last two weeks. So yeah I can base my opinion on them.

You get a couple of twenty somethings out with girlfriends trying to push their weight around in a bar full of locals. I was there for both of them so I know what happened.

What would happen if you had a Saskatchewan boy walk into a nightclub in Edmonton or Calgary and start calling down all the locals? Don't know about you but we don't take kindly to assholes like that out here.

feepa
Dec 29, 2006, 7:52 PM
The only two incidents in the last two weeks. So yeah I can base my opinion on them.

You get a couple of twenty somethings out with girlfriends trying to push their weight around in a bar full of locals. I was there for both of them so I know what happened.

What would happen if you had a Saskatchewan boy walk into a nightclub in Edmonton or Calgary and start calling down all the locals? Don't know about you but we don't take kindly to assholes like that out here.

ok, you win

malek
Dec 29, 2006, 7:54 PM
^^ we get that every night with torontians calling everything that move "frogs" or "fucking french" even thought that area is mostly anglophone hehheeh

samne
Dec 29, 2006, 8:14 PM
Provincial migration is boring. How about International immigration by province.

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/pub/facts2005/permanent/18.html

Newfoundland and Labrador 496

Prince Edward Island 330

Nova Scotia 1,929

New Brunswick 1,092

Quebec 43,308

Ontario 140,533

Manitoba 8,097

Saskatchewan 2,106

Alberta 19,399

British Columbia 44,767

Total 262,236

Taller Better
Dec 29, 2006, 8:23 PM
^^ we get that every night with torontians calling everything that move "frogs" or "fucking french" even thought that area is mostly anglophone hehheeh

This happens every night in Montreal? I thought it was a nice peaceful
place. Do even you get called a "frog", malek? I haven't heard anyone called a frog
since the 60's, I didn't realize it still happened. That is about as bad as you
calling all Canadians outside of Quebec "squareheads"!
I've never heard anyone in Montreal ("Torontonian" or otherwise) call anyone else a "frog", and in 21 one
years here in Toronto I have never heard the term used even once. You must
live in a shocking neighbourhood, malek! I guess I am happy to stay where I am! :)

Taller Better
Dec 29, 2006, 8:40 PM
Provincial migration is boring. How about International immigration by province.

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/pub/facts2005/permanent/18.html

Newfoundland and Labrador 496

Prince Edward Island 330

Nova Scotia 1,929

New Brunswick 1,092

Quebec 43,308

Ontario 140,533

Manitoba 8,097

Saskatchewan 2,106

Alberta 19,399

British Columbia 44,767

Total 262,236

Wow! Is this accurate? Only 19,399 people from outside of Canada immigrated to Alberta? I'm shocked at how low that figure is..

Western Spaghetti
Dec 29, 2006, 8:56 PM
same old boring garbage article that depicts Alberta as some magical paradise where everything is made out of honey.

There's no future in Saskatchewan? Then why are so many people moving back?

That engineer didn't think things through very well by the sounds of it. It's not like engineers are starving in Saskatchewan, they make plenty of cash. And you may be able to retire at the age of 50 in Alberta, but you'll be paying your $8000/mo mortgage until the day you die

People said the same thing twenty years ago, and now those people have their houses paid off, and are paying less for property taxes then you would in Regina.


And on a side note: what happens when the oil boom ends and the province is full of people who dropped out of highschool to work in the oil rigs, or make $20/h at mcdonalds?

Same thing that happened last time the oil boom ended. Alberta just kept on going. This isn't something new here. This is a natural progression of a boom.

samne
Dec 29, 2006, 9:04 PM
I dont understand why more people from outside Canada arent moving to Alberta?


Clearly the opportunity is there.

Western Spaghetti
Dec 29, 2006, 9:07 PM
And I've known lots of people who moved to Alberta and BC and then moved back East. But that is just annecdotal evidence. Statistics are the only way we can judge the truth.
Plus, let's be honest. When people from Ontario move to Alberta, they learn pretty quickly to downplay the fact that they are Easterners, and probably would never say in a social setting that they wanted to move back to Ontario. That would be, socially, the kiss of death. At least it was like that when I lived out West. I don't remember people from Toronto ever getting a particularily friendly reception.

I call bullshit on this one. I know shitloads of people from Eastern Canada, and I've never met anyone who has downplyed the fact that they from the east. There are so many people here from so many different places, that nobody cares where you're from. This might have been the case 30 years ago. When did you live here?

Western Spaghetti
Dec 29, 2006, 9:12 PM
I dont understand why more people from outside Canada arent moving to Alberta?


Clearly the opportunity is there.

How would they know the opportunity is here though? Before immigrants arrive in Canada, they have limited knowledge of Canada and current events in Canada.

I'll give you the perfect example. Many of the Cab drivers in Fort McMurray are from Africa (Nigeria, Somalia, etc..) In talking with these guys, I found that their stories are much the same. They all arrived in Toronto, because it was the only city they knew in Canada. They knew someone who could get them a job in Fort Mac and that's how they ended up there.

vid
Dec 29, 2006, 11:08 PM
Wow! Is this accurate? Only 19,399 people from outside of Canada immigrated to Alberta? I'm shocked at how low that figure is..

They would migrate to a larger city, like Toronto or Vancouver, THEN go to Alberta. A lot of the African immigrants here first went to Toronto, while the Chinese immigrants I know came from Vancouver and Chicago.

Wooster
Dec 29, 2006, 11:56 PM
Yeah, Alberta is rarely a first landing spot for international immigrants. As Vid said, most of our immigrants first landed in GTA or Vancouver and moved here later on. I don't think Calgary or Edmonton are really known to outsiders at all. Once they arrive though I think it becomes known that cities in Alberta present a place of opportunity for them.

caltrane74
Dec 30, 2006, 12:02 AM
Yes I also find it funny that more international immigrants dont move first to Alberta. Especially with all the refugee help centers out there and all.

LordMandeep
Dec 30, 2006, 1:51 AM
Yeah immigration will likely keep Toronto in the largest city spot unless we ban immigration, which wouldn't be a good idea.

shreddog
Dec 30, 2006, 2:06 AM
Provincial migration is boring. How about International immigration by province.

Ontario 140,533


Funny thing is, that too seems to be changing. Not sure where they got the numbers from, but 2 months ago, the G&M published this article (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20061104.wrjobs04/BNStory/Business/) saying "International immigration to Ontario has slowed down too, dropping from 156,444 people in 2001-02, to about 86,000 over the past year."

Again, not sure where they got this number from, but if true, it will be interesting to see where the rest went since total immigration numbers have remained semi-static.

I guess we'll see for sure in a couple months when SC starts to release some official numbers.

BTW, why is provincial migration boring?? Is it simply because a region of the country you are interested in looks bad?

Personally, I think it is very interesting because internal migration is a very valid indicator of informed mobility. As stated by others, external immigration to Canada is often driven by limited information. The knowledge of 1 or 2 main cities, government advertising, etc. Once people become fully aware of the information concerning economic prosperity, or whatever else floats their boat, they can then make an educated decision on where to live. Whether that be where they first immigrated to or some other burg.

shreddog
Dec 30, 2006, 2:56 AM
Provincial migration is boring. How about International immigration by province.

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/pub/facts2005/permanent/18.html

Newfoundland and Labrador 496

Prince Edward Island 330

Nova Scotia 1,929

New Brunswick 1,092

Quebec 43,308

Ontario 140,533

Manitoba 8,097

Saskatchewan 2,106

Alberta 19,399

British Columbia 44,767

Total 262,236
Though I do find interprovincial migration more interesting, certain aspects of external migration to Canada can be interesting, especially trends.

The one trend I find real interesting is how immigration to Ontario is declining in relation to other provinces. By that I mean fewer and fewer immigrants are chosing Ontario as their first point of entry.

According to SC, (link (http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/060927/d060927a.htm)), in 2005/2006 "More than 52% of immigrants, around 133,100, chose Ontario as their new place of residence. This was the lowest proportion since 1993/1994. The province's attraction for immigrants has been declining since the turn of the millennium."

It would be interesting to determine why this is the case? Is it better advertising by the governments or perhaps we are seeing the effects of the pioneering immigrants in areas outside of the GTA.

By that I mean that studies show that immigrants often choose areas where similiar immigrants have previously settled. So once you get a group of "pioneering immigrants" in an area, they tend to attract more immigrants. Since Toronto, and to a lesser degree Vancouver, are so well known outside of Canada, they tended to attract the first set of immigrants to Canada. Those immigrants then tend to migrate to other areas and act as "pioneering immigrants" to a new set of immigrants who then bypass the traditional points of entry.

So yeah, I guess international immigration can be interesting too.

shreddog
Dec 30, 2006, 2:58 AM
^^ Note that the number on the SC website says 133K for 05/06 and the G&M article said 86K over the past year. Again not sure what the G&M is saying (is it only 2006??) or where they got their numbers from, but the trend is definitely there.

samne
Dec 30, 2006, 3:02 AM
BTW, why is provincial migration boring?? Is it simply because a region of the country you are interested in looks bad?

I just find international migration sexier than packing a uhaul for a temporary job. This goes both ways.

Why does it look bad?

The numbers look big, but really they make sense. Ontario has about 4X the population of Alberta. In turn, about the same proportion of each province migrates to the other respectively.

These are just raw numbers and not percentage of population.

http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/061221/c061221e.gif

Im not knocking Alberta's prosperity, but these articles are just putting twists on the same old story.

Waterlooson
Dec 30, 2006, 3:07 AM
Yeah, Alberta is rarely a first landing spot for international immigrants. As Vid said, most of our immigrants first landed in GTA or Vancouver and moved here later on. I don't think Calgary or Edmonton are really known to outsiders at all. Once they arrive though I think it becomes known that cities in Alberta present a place of opportunity for them.

That's starting to change; I post to a British emigration forum and the number of Brits interested in Alberta has increased many times fold in the last year or two. Alberta is now on the map for immigrants like never before. The economy is a big draw, but the beauty of Alberta's National Parks are also a huge attraction and not to be underestimated. Another draw is Alberta's (especially Calgary's) sunny and dry climate.

BTW, I asked a little old Mexican lady down here in Cabo if she had ever heard of Calgary, and she said "yes" because she watched the '88 winter Olympics on TV!

vid
Dec 30, 2006, 3:09 AM
"That's starting to change"

Which means it won't be fully reflected with the data we have right now.

shreddog
Dec 30, 2006, 3:11 AM
I just find international migration sexier than packing a uhaul for a temporary job. This goes both ways.

Why does it look bad?

...

Im not knocking Alberta's prosperity, but these articles are just putting twists on the same old story.

Sorry, perhaps I was being a bit touchy based on the some of the previous posts. No harm meant.

As for it being sexier, I certainly cannot deny that it can add a hell of a lot more to the local cultural scene than internal migration. One need only look at how Toronto is different today than it was 15-20 years ago to see the benefits of international immigration.

That said, I stand by my earlier statement that the problem with international immigration is that it is often based on limited information.

Also, I am quite shocked to see the downward trend in Ontarion wrt being a point of entry of international immigrants. While not a massive decrease - yet - it is interesting none the less.

Until SC comes out with real numbers though it is just guessing as to where everyone is going to. Perhaps Nunavut will see a big spike!!

BTW, I too am getting tired of all these media articles on Alberta's growth. That said it is the end of the year, journalists appear to be lazy, the weather has calmed down in BC and fortunately there is no major death or mayhem in Canada, so what else do they have to full the paper with??

Waterlooson
Dec 30, 2006, 3:29 AM
"That's starting to change"

Which means it won't be fully reflected with the data we have right now.

Yes, you are right. Applicants trying to immigrate to Canada under the skilled immigrant category are now having to wait about 5 years for approval.

malek
Dec 30, 2006, 3:59 AM
This happens every night in Montreal? I thought it was a nice peaceful
place. Do even you get called a "frog", malek? I haven't heard anyone called a frog
since the 60's, I didn't realize it still happened. That is about as bad as you
calling all Canadians outside of Quebec "squareheads"!
I've never heard anyone in Montreal ("Torontonian" or otherwise) call anyone else a "frog", and in 21 one
years here in Toronto I have never heard the term used even once. You must
live in a shocking neighbourhood, malek! I guess I am happy to stay where I am! :)

i'm a clubbing photographer and see these things ALOT. I am not out everyday but everytime I go (fridays and saturdays with thursdays and sundays sometimes) out I see this kind of behavior.

Yes I got called a frog once only!!:haha::haha:

Waterlooson
Dec 30, 2006, 4:04 AM
i'm a clubbing photographer and see these things ALOT. I am not out everyday but everytime I go (fridays and saturdays with thursdays and sundays sometimes) out I see this kind of behavior.

Yes I got called a frog once only!!:haha::haha:

Oh, so that's why you occasionally leap to conclusions. ;)

vid
Dec 30, 2006, 4:11 AM
I think I was the one that called him a frog...

But, hey, if you read his posts, he had it coming.

Taller Better
Dec 30, 2006, 5:14 AM
Yes I got called a frog once only!!:haha::haha:


You got called a frog because you speak French? That is bizarre!
Honestly I have not heard that term used in decades. I had no idea it
was still in use. I've been called a tapette in Montreal, and a squarehead... but such is life! :D

Xelebes
Dec 30, 2006, 5:46 AM
I know on speedcore.ca, there has been quite the interest from Dutch and Scottish folks for Calgary.

malek
Dec 30, 2006, 7:14 AM
Soon to be installed on the Saksatchewan-Alberta border:

http://images.cyberpresse.ca/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?NewTbl=1&Avis=CP&Dato=20061220&Kategori=CPGALLERIE12&Lopenr=1220004&Ref=PH&Item=3&maxW=800&Q=100

vid
Dec 30, 2006, 7:16 AM
:D

Thunder Bay needs one of those!

CCF
Dec 30, 2006, 8:25 AM
Soon to be installed on the Saksatchewan-Alberta border:

http://images.cyberpresse.ca/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?NewTbl=1&Avis=CP&Dato=20061220&Kategori=CPGALLERIE12&Lopenr=1220004&Ref=PH&Item=3&maxW=800&Q=100

For which way?

Seems like many people are making the decision to move back to SK.