liberal leadership race

[trueviking]

the first ballot is in and it seems that the delegates agree by a slim margin that belinda stronach is better looking as a brunette.

http://forums.macleans.ca/uploads/1366/1164259648.6252.upload1.jpg


just kidding....did anyone watch the speeches?....ken dryden was great!

i am really torn about who would be the best for the liberal party.

a lot of people like iggy and i think that he could be the daring choice that takes the country in a new direction...he might also take the liberal party down in flames.

bob rae terrifies me....with few seats west of manitoba, the liberals need ontario overwhelmingly to win.....i dont think rae can deliver.

gerrard kennedy is a good manitoba boy and has charisma and gave a great speech today, but if you cant fluently speak french, you cant be prime minister....for me, it is his only fault...he might be able to deliver some western seats, could win in ontario and the marritimes....since quebec basically doesnt count much anymore, maybe it isnt such a big issue.

stephane dion is a decent, honourable guy who i think canadians could trust, especially up against the arrogant car salesman harper...he is likeable and intelligent.....his speech today sucked....i wonder if he can deliver anything in quebec though, being the clarity act guy.

joe volpe's video before his speech looked like a grade 9 student put it together....it was like being in his basement watching his travel slides as his kid in the next room blared tom cochrane on his stereo.

anyways what are your thoughts on the leadership race?....i am interested to hear what people think from other regions...who would do best in your province?


first ballot:

1. Michael Ignatieff 1,412
2. Bob Rae 977
3. Stéphane Dion 856
4. Gerard Kennedy 854
5. Ken Dryden 238
6. Scott Brison 192
7. Joe Volpe 156
8. Martha Hall Findlay 130

it is going to be an interesting weekend.

[Taller Better]

Hey, that is interesting! I missed it all due to work. I don't know though.... even though she is obviously a "bottled blonde", I think Belinda looked better bleached out. Maybe she just needs a shorter haircut now, or something but it looks mousy.

[drew]

I am choosing Kennedy as the dark horse...and also the best choice if the Liberals truly want a change. He speaks french as well as Dion speaks english...

Ignatieff comes across just as arrogant and condescending as Harper (and maybe even more so) in several one on one interviews I have seen. I don't like him.

[Taller Better]

It is too bad about Kennedy's French. It isn't good, and frankly it is probably
not as good as Dion's English. But I haven't heard him talk much in French yet.

[waterloowarrior]

Ignatieff comes across just as arrogant and condescending as Harper (and maybe even more so) in several one on one interviews I have seen. I don't like him.
heh, check out the mercer report video of him "Iggy and Evan Solomon"
http://www.cbc.ca/mercerreport/


:haha:

[Taller Better]

I'll bet I am the only one here who CANNOT stand Rick Mercer. I find him so smug that I want to smack him.

[trueviking]

Ignatieff comes across just as arrogant and condescending as Harper (and maybe even more so) in several one on one interviews I have seen. I don't like him.

i agree with that....they are both kind of similar....very intelligent, but uninspiring and arrogant....dion and kennedy are the opposite....if you could morph them together, you would have a good candidate.

the liberals need to offer an option to harper...iggy is too similar.....but on the other hand, dont you want the smartest guy leading the country, even if he is condecending?

i guess it is about electibility though...

taller...belinda is doing commentary on cbc...the hair looks better on video....take a look before casting your vote.

[Boris2k7]

Sorry, haven't been really watching. I'm more interested in the Tory leadership race here in Alberta. It's just far more relevant to me. We will probably know tomorrow night who will be our next Premier/Monarch.

That said, I caught a bit of the stuff on the Liberals on Global tonight (I'm more of a CTV person myself but I needed to watch Global for a sociology project). Bob Rae has turned out to be an... interesting candidate.

I also don't like Rick Mercer.

[Only The Lonely..]

Anyway you put it; none of these guys are prime minister material. I'm not a big fan of Harper but I have a hard time believing Bob Rae or Ignatieff could win...

On one hand you have the man who completely bankrupted Ontario (Rae)..

Or you can choose some snotty pie in the sky Harvard intellectual (Ignatieff) who would like nothing better than to add Prime Minister to his resume, never mind the fact that he has an American accent.

[Waterlooson]

Anyway you put it; none of these guys are prime minister material. I'm not a big fan of Harper but I have a hard time believing Bob Rae or Ignatieff could win...

On one hand you have the man who completely bankrupted Ontario (Rae)..

Or you can choose some snotty pie in the sky Harvard intellectual (Ignatieff) who would like nothing better than to add Prime Minister to his resume, never mind the fact that he has an American accent.

I agree with all your points, except Rae might be able to beat Harper because Rae has, at least the potential, to unite the left.... so it would be right vs. left.... I don't think Ignat. could beat Harper... right vs. pseudo right? I'd choose the real Mc Coy.

[MonkeyRonin]

ehh? accent? I dont even notice any accent from Ignatieff, not that it even matters, mind you. (well, as long he doesn't talk with a southern accent. that would be embarassing)

[DrJoe]

Im hoping Rae wins it. Dion can barely speak English and Ignatieff combines the blandness of Dalton McGuinty with the smug arrogance of Stephen Harper.

[Bassic Lab]

i agree with that....they are both kind of similar....very intelligent, but uninspiring and arrogant....dion and kennedy are the opposite....if you could morph them together, you would have a good candidate.

the liberals need to offer an option to harper...iggy is too similar.....but on the other hand, dont you want the smartest guy leading the country, even if he is condecending?

i guess it is about electibility though...

taller...belinda is doing commentary on cbc...the hair looks better on video....take a look before casting your vote.

I think you're off on Dion. He is very much an intellectual, remember, like Ignatieff he was a proffessor. It is his charisma that may be lacking, especially with the limited english.

What I really can't understand is the long held beleif that the hatred seperatists have for Dion in Quebec makes him unelectable. It isn't really like the people with the big hate on were going to vote for a federalist party any way. I think the soft federalism of Paul Martin and Ignatieff has failed as a strategy for the Liberals, it doesn't bring soft sovereignists over.

He seems to be looking good for the leadership now as well.

[ErickMontreal]

Dion!

[duper]

Yes, it will be Dion. He's been the real underdog of the campaign. He had way less funding than Rae, Ignatieff and Kennedy, yet he still manages to pull off a win (I suspect its a win).

[Andy6]

Dion!

What a disastrous choice.

Our Tory geek can beat your Liberal geek any day.

[Only The Lonely..]

ehh? accent? I dont even notice any accent from Ignatieff, not that it even matters, mind you. (well, as long he doesn't talk with a southern accent. that would be embarassing)


Yaa, if you listen carefully to how Iggy speaks he sounds a lot like John Kerry. That's just my opinion though.

[adam-machiavelli]

This is kind of redundant now that Rae is out. But people who are terrified of Bob Rae should remember that him and Ignatieff were cut from the same academic cloth (they were also roommates at U of T). It was Rae's cabinet who were incompetant, not him.

[Only The Lonely..]

I figure if Iggy were a muppet he'd look a lot like Guy Smiley..

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/Business/2006/11/03/lonbiz.jpghttp://muppet.wikia.com/images/8/8a/GuySmiley.jpghttp://www.laction.com/imgs/dynamique/articles/gros/ignatieff.jpg

[PhilippeMtl]

Dion is hated in Quebec...


http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/rat/images/raton3700/rat-on-sequencer-color.jpg
http://fe.lea.lycos.fr/html.ng/grp=build_a_site&country=fr&affiliate=frtripod&svc=hosting&adpos=1&ch=art_culture&ee=0&params.styles=tripod,tripod-im&btype=90&btype=1&btype=27&ts=1468403793?
I see a ''never seen before victory'' for Bloc Quebecois in the next election.

What a bad choice.

I will vote for Duceppe in the next election!

[Only The Lonely..]

DION WINS!!!!!

:banaride: :babyeat:

All men tremble before his glory..

:whip: :worship:

[queetz@home]

Dion is hated in Quebec...


http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/rat/images/raton3700/rat-on-sequencer-color.jpg
http://fe.lea.lycos.fr/html.ng/grp=build_a_site&country=fr&affiliate=frtripod&svc=hosting&adpos=1&ch=art_culture&ee=0&params.styles=tripod,tripod-im&btype=90&btype=1&btype=27&ts=1468403793?
I see a ''never seen before victory'' for Bloc Quebecois in the next election.

What a bad choice.

I will vote for Duceppe in the next election!


:previous: Just out of curiousity since I haven't been following, can you briefly explain why Dion is hated in Quebec? And what does the mouse mean?

[MonkeyRonin]

Yaa, if you listen carefully to how Iggy speaks he sounds a lot like John Kerry. That's just my opinion though.

Both sound normal to me :shrug:

[Bassic Lab]

:previous: Just out of curiousity since I haven't been following, can you briefly explain why Dion is hated in Quebec? And what does the mouse mean?

It is a reference to his appearance.

He is hated by the sovereignists for his strong federalist stance, in particular his contribution to the Clarity Act. He is not hated by federalists, who are the people who vote Liberal in Quebec any way.

PhilippeMtl, were you planning on voting for any one other than the Bloc in any event? I doubt that the hatred Bloc voters feel for Dion will have a great impact on the election, but that might just be me.

[The Chemist]

I'm glad Dion won, and I'm much more likely to vote Liberal in the next Federal election. He'll run as a 'green' candidate, and by doing so he'll a)provide a serious alternative to the Conservatives who don't seem to have a coherent green plan and b)draw a lot of supporters away from the Green party.

Dion will make a good Prime Minister, IMO, and having Kennedy as his lieutenant should help him win seats in the west.

[samne]

wierd, ON wanted Dion and QC wanted Iggy.

If Iggy doesnt run in the next election because he's not the leader, then the right choice was made.

[Wooster]

Interesting Convention that led to this result. It is Stephane vs. Stephen.

I am not sure that Dion will have the ability to inspire a lot of shifts in loyalty toward the liberal party. Will they be able to win a single solitary seat in Alberta under Dion? Not too sure.

He certainly lacks a charasmatic quality that is so important in today's politics, although he seems to be an extremely well respected, thoughtful and intelligent parliamentarian.

[malek]

congrats to Dion, very smart scholar and I prefer to have on my voting list smart peoples than just charismatic ones, even if I don't plan voting for him.

But he'll have to work hard as a mofo to win anything in Quebec.

[trueviking]

what a fun convention to watch....

i think this is the best choice in the end.

40% of quebecers no longer have anything to say about who governs the country...the others will be given the choice of a respected, intellegent one of their own and a calgarian who has done nothing but institute policy that is not popular in quebec.....dion will not destroy the bloc vote, but i doubt rene levesque as liberal prime minister could....in the battle for the rest of the votes, he will do fine.

ralph klein as liberal prime minister would have a tough time winning a seat in alberta...choosing a leader who can scrape one or two seats there is not worth it.

dion offers canada an anti-harper choice....iggy was too similar.

dion is soft spoken, likeable, comfortable and fits the mold of a traditional liberal leader....this is what has made the liberals the default party in canada and it is the character that they should sell as the antidote to the conservative brand of government.....i think people will eventually like dion because he doesnt have the aggressive style harper does.

this brings the liberals back to their roots....they should run dion and kennedy in a harper mckay style tandem....if they are presented as a bit of a team the way the cons did with their guys, they could sell the popular face in each specific region.

[Wooster]

If we had PR, there would be no problem electing plenty of liberals in Alberta. Our system is very undemocratic in my opinion. It is wrong that our federal parties have to be so region focused. They should not have to distinguish voters by region.

[Andy6]

what a fun convention to watch....

i think this is the best choice in the end.

40% of quebecers no longer have anything to say about who governs the country...the others will be given the choice of a respected, intellegent one of their own and a calgarian who has done nothing but institute policy that is not popular in quebec.....dion will not destroy the bloc vote, but i doubt rene levesque as liberal prime minister could....in the battle for the rest of the votes, he will do fine.

ralph klein as liberal prime minister would have a tough time winning a seat in alberta...choosing a leader who can scrape one or two seats there is not worth it.

dion offers canada an anti-harper choice....iggy was too similar.

This was the funnest convention to watch since the 1976 PC convention, which was the greatest of them all. It provides a good argument for retaining the convention system rather than these dull, sterile one-vote-per-member substitutes.

dion is soft spoken, likeable, comfortable and fits the mold of a traditional liberal leader....this is what has made the liberals the default party in canada and it is the character that they should sell as the antidote to the conservative brand of government.....i think people will eventually like dion because he doesnt have the aggressive style harper does.

this brings the liberals back to their roots....they should run dion and kennedy in a harper mckay style tandem....if they are presented as a bit of a team the way the cons did with their guys, they could sell the popular face in each specific region.

The fact that the Liberals are immediately suggesting that they need to run Dion as part of a team, and admitting that he can't deliver anything in his home region, suggests to me that they have made a very unwise choice as leader.

On the other hand, Dion is a smart guy and you have to admire him for standing up personally against separatists as an academic and politician. Maybe Canadians will warm to him but the Grits don't have a lot of time to make that happen.

[trueviking]

^who said he cant deliver anything in his home province?

regionalism is a reality in our national politics now...thanks to the bloc and the reform party...it is no slight to dion's quality as a leader.

[Wooster]

[QUOTE=trueviking]
regionalism is a reality in our national politics now.[/QUOTE

Largely exacerbated by our electoral system. If this is known and regionalsim is such a threat to Canada, why do we not take action to eliminate that problem?

[rgalston]

regionalism is a reality in our national politics now...thanks to the bloc and the reform party...it is no slight to dion's quality as a leader.

Yes, there was no regionalism in what is the geographically largest country in the world before the Reform or Bloc Parties came along; everyone just got along great.

By the way, I am guessing the Green Party will replace the NDP as the party to steal--and water down--policy ideas from. Looking forward to 13 years of talk (though from the opposition bench this time) about "sustainability", or hocus-pocus ideas like a "national biodiesel program".

[malek]

everyone just got along great.


:sly:

[ErickMontreal]

I`m looking foward to see Duceppe against Dion.

I hope Dion will crush Duceppe and Harper !

[Boris2k7]

Yes, there was no regionalism in what is the geographically largest country in the world before the Reform or Bloc Parties came along; everyone just got along great.

By the way, I am guessing the Green Party will replace the NDP as the party to steal--and water down--policy ideas from. Looking forward to 13 years of talk (though from the opposition bench this time) about "sustainability", or hocus-pocus ideas like a "national biodiesel program".

Yes, which is a reason why I would like to see some sort of hybrid PR-FPP system like Germany's, where the Green Party has been able to heavily influence government policy through coalitions.

[LordMandeep]

yeah but i think Dion would rape Harper on the Quebec question though, so i expect Harper to never speak of it again if he is smart.

Dion will likely get some of the "i am french vote" so he can win a good 15-20 seats there mixed in with the Liberal East (Ontario, Maratimes) he could get a good shot at a minority. Look if Harper could not get more popular against no real opposition why would you think harper would get more popular against a smart intelligent leader. IMO Dion is very netural to most Canadians, so he will be alright. Now Dion must now pray for Harper to do something stupid...

[drew]

Look if Harper could not get more popular against no real opposition why would you think harper would get more popular against a smart intelligent leader. IMO Dion is very netural to most Canadians, so he will be alright. Now Dion must now pray for Harper to do something stupid...

I think if the Liberals actually have some sort of campaign strategy, unlike the last election, the worst they will do is a minority...

[LordMandeep]

yeah Harper hit his spike during the end of last election. Even i was convinced we needed change. Now the vibe has changed, and i think a lot of the close Onatrio seats that went conservative could swicth back. PLus i think most people forget Harper won by only 20 seats against a oppostion that was so lost and weak...

Next election i project a close tie....with NDP falling of the earth...

Is see 120-125 Liberal, 115-120 Conservative, 20-25 NDP, 50 Bloc.


Plus i think Dion's ideas of the Enviroment could make him very popular in the Urban Areas of the Country. He will pick up seats in Quebec to remember.

[malek]

nice the balance of power with the bloc :)

[LordMandeep]

I see it being a very very close elction next time. Quebec could swing more to the Bloc and some to the Liberal and a lot of the Ontario gains for the conservatives were very close. The Liberals lost 21 seats here, they could pick up maybe ten atleast again. That would put the two neck and neck.

Next time the election will be decided in the small towns and Suburban areas of Ontario.

[malek]

The Headtitle of La Presse, looks like Dion will have a hell of hard time with the Liberals in Quebec.
--------------------------------------------------------------

ÉLECTION DE DION
Plusieurs libéraux du Québec sous le choc
Isabelle Rodrigue
Prese Canadienne
Montréal
«C'est fini.» Phrase catégorique s'il en est une, mais cette réaction d'un militant libéral de Chicoutimi à l'annonce de la victoire de Stéphane Dion illustre l'ampleur du malaise que ce choix suscite au sein de la majorité des militants libéraux québécois.




...
http://www.cyberpresse.ca/article/20061202/CPACTUALITES/612020787/1019/CPACTUALITES

[LordMandeep]

So,. next election will go more to the bloc???

[Smron]

Very please with the results tonight. I knew Dion was the man since he joined the race back in the spring. I also thought Ignatieff was very classy about finishing second, as well as Bob Rae for telling his delagates to support whoever they wanted to (and not one individual candidate) after he was dropped from the ballot.

[waterloowarrior]

I agree with those saying we need to move to PR.. I like the MMP system (like in Germany and New Zealand) the best. Conservative voters in big cities, Liberal voters in Alberta, and NDP and Green voters everywhere need to have their votes mean something.

[Taller Better]

I give up. Completely, utterly give up. The Liberals deserve everything they get. They elect the man that up until recently was polled the third or forth choice. Grief.

[trueviking]

The Headtitle of La Presse, looks like Dion will have a hell of hard time with the Liberals in Quebec.


so...harper is a better choice for federalist quebecers than dion?...i find that hard to believe....harper got lucky last time in quebec because sponsorship was central there...kyoto, gay marriage, the military...no action on fiscal imbalance....he has done nothing to secure his support there....dion is not hated by federalists in quebec, only separatists who throw their votes away anyways....given the choice between harper and dion, without sponsorship baggage, dion will win.

they always say this about liberal leaders...chretien was hated too...he did fine.

1/3 of the population of quebec will always think a french liberal leader is a traitor, because he is by definition a federalist....electing a leader who is popular with soverigntists aint gonna happen...

[Kilgore Trout]

I give up. Completely, utterly give up. The Liberals deserve everything they get. They elect the man that up until recently was polled the third or forth choice. Grief.

honestly, i can't see how rae or ignatieff would have been better. rae's campaign was absolutely substanceless. ignatieff has been a disaster: this race was his to lose and he totally blew it.

as for kennedy, i can almost guarantee you that he will play a very, very prominent role in the dion-led liberals.

[Kilgore Trout]

oh, and the whole "dion is not liked in quebec" thing?

100% bullshit.

trudeau and chrétien were "not liked in quebec." they did fine. paul martin? he was loved in quebec -- and look what happened to him.

face it: the liberals are never going to win in places like the saguenay, which is what makes that la presse article so laughable. does it really matter what some liberal delegates from ridings that have never elected a liberal think?

[MaThQc]

well, it will be nice maybe for Quebec City again.

Stéphane Dion come from Québec City. He's born here, and I'm sure that he will play with that at the next election. Dion's family is here... ;)

But, that's true that ppl dont like him in Quebec, and the best scenario for "souverainiste" was Stéphane Dion.

And... le discours de Micheal ignatieff... ça... grandeur, était une gifle à tous ceux et celles qui sont derrière Stéphane Dion... et les commentaires d'une majorité des Québécois l'on dit pendant ce congrès : "We will loose in Quebec again".

La force de Stéphane : l'environnement. And all ppl know that Stephen Harper will doing another green plan.

Et ceux qui peuvent lire en français je vous invite à lire ceci : http://www.cyberpresse.ca/article/20061203/CPBLOGUES07/61202078&blogdate=20061203&cacheid=20061203

http://www.parl.gc.ca/information/about/images/PARLINFO_img/182.jpg

[samne]

Dion is the right choice for right now. The Liberals need a seasoned parliamentarian with a focus on the environment to battle the Conservatives.

Kennedy, will be something in the near future. His leadership campaign raised his profile outside of Ontario. He could most likely be the first Liberal Leader born and raised in the West.

One thing the convention proved is that no other party has such a national attraction. Also, nobody can throw a bash like the Liberals. I wish I was there, because it looked like a lot of fun.

[Andy6]

honestly, i can't see how rae or ignatieff would have been better. rae's campaign was absolutely substanceless. ignatieff has been a disaster: this race was his to lose and he totally blew it.

as for kennedy, i can almost guarantee you that he will play a very, very prominent role in the dion-led liberals.

How? He's an Ontario MPP. There aren't a lot of federal seats available in Toronto, either, although I guess Dion would owe it to him to force a sitting MP out to give him a spot if he wants it.

My guess is that Dion will be on his own now. Ignatieff won't run again, Rae will go back to law and Kennedy may prefer being an Ontario cabinet minister to being a federal opposition MP.

[Andy6]

Dion is the right choice for right now. The Liberals need a seasoned parliamentarian with a focus on the environment to battle the Conservatives.

Dion seems to be putting an awful lot of eggs in the environment basket. His whole acceptance speech seemed to revolve around saving the planet.

[Wooster]

^Yet I'm not sure that beyond rhetoric his environment record really stands up to much of anything. What was one contribution he made to getting climate change under control as env. minister?

[SteelTown]

If Dion sticks to the environment, which he will, then he could take back all 4 seats in Hamilton, 3 are currently NDP and 1 is Conservative. Almost all of Hamilton's delegates were on Kennedy side, some were to Dryden mostly because he was born in Hamilton.

So that right there is 4 gains for the Liberals.

[MaThQc]

I'm looking at my msn and a lot of ppl write things about Stéphane Dion :

"Dion is now the chief. Where we are going?"

"Hilarious Dion is now the chief of PLC, what the fuck?"

"Stéphane Dion is the chief of PLC, wow, another reason for voting to the Bloc"

"Infoman said that : « Stéphane, we are beside you » HAHA the best joke of the year." (Infoman is a program from radio-canada)

"Well, I come back from Paris, and its Stéphane Dion the chief of PLC, what Stephen did?"

"Stéphane win. Canada loose."

"Stéphane Dion is now the chief of PLC, err, going to smoke a spliff."

[Andy6]

If Dion sticks to the environment, which he will, then he could take back all 4 seats in Hamilton, 3 are currently NDP and 1 is Conservative. Almost all of Hamilton's delegates were on Kennedy side, some were to Dryden mostly because he was born in Hamilton.

So that right there is 4 gains for the Liberals.

Why? Don't Hamilton's unionized voters fear for their jobs if Canadian industry is forced into expensive Kyoto compliance efforts? Or will some sort of convenient "exception" be made for Ontario's auto and steel industries (and of course, Quebec's heavy industry)?

[duper]

Dion can savour sweet victory
JOHN IBBITSON
Globe and Mail Update
E-mail John Ibbitson
| Read Bio

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MONTREAL — In the end, it wasn't even close.

Michael Ignatieff lost his bid to become leader of the Liberal Party of Canada because he couldn't accomplish the one thing his campaign chieftains had promised they could accomplish. His much-vaunted machine on the convention floor failed to win delegates from any of the other camps.

The Ignatieff team held the vote steady, but they couldn't grow it. From the first to third ballots, as candidates dropped out, switched their support to other candidates and momentum grew around both Bob Rae and Stéphane Dion, the Ignatieff organizers on the floor wooed, cajoled, pleaded, but accomplished almost nothing. Through three ballots, his support rose from just under 30 per cent to just over 34 per cent. That is not momentum. That's a stall.

In the end, there were mostly two kinds of delegates at this convention: those who were determined to vote for Mr. Ignatieff, and ere those who were determined to vote for anyone but him. Anyone turned out to be a Quebecois former cabinet minister who dedicated his entire campaign to the environment. In the fourth and final ballot, he surged almost ten percentage points ahead to capture a respectable majority of delegates in what was an amazing brokered convention.


Six candidates went to Bob Rae, but this convention wanted renewal, not an older candidate recruited by the party's old guard. They wanted generational change, they wanted a new message, they wanted to break the power of the backroom bosses, to end the Chrétien-Martin civil war. Gerard Kennedy represented youth and renewal, and he believed that Stéphane Dion wanted the same thing. So when it was clear he had fallen short, Mr. Kennedy went to Mr. Dion, taking a very large share of his delegates with him. And that proved to be more than all the other candidates combined.

Monday, Mr. Dion will rise in Question Period and ask his first question as Leader of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition, and a whole new political story will begin.

But tonight Mr. Dion can savour one of the sweetest come-from-behind victories in modern Canadian history. He might even get some sleep.

[SteelTown]

When you live in an industrial city you see the impact of the environmental damage first hand. There's a reason why Hamilton has the highest rate of asthma in Canada, that's why the national Firestone Institute for Respiratory Health is located in Hamilton.

Many would like to see a compromise for companies like Stelco and Dofasco to invest more into environmentally clean technology. For example there's no excuse why steel companies still use coals to produce heat to melt steel. You can find other sources of power such as Windmills and natural gas to create heat. The government can help out and give companies incentives to use cleaner sources of power to fuel their factories.

Doing that would dramatically cut down greenhouse gases in Hamilton and make our air cleaner. Plus there's no threat of job losses all you did was switch sources of electrical power.

I think a lot of people don't really understand the process of making steel. So in short producing steel doesn't really create pollution, definitely A LOT of steam which is what a lot of those smokestacks are (people tend to assume that pollution coming out of those smokestack). What does make pollution is the process you use to melt your steel, in Hamilton they use coal which is the dirtiest sources of power. If you use natural gas or install windmills along the Harbour, by the way the Liberals made a deal to help Stelco to purchase and install windmills part of the restructuring deal but the Conservatives killed the deal once in power.

[duper]

Why? Don't Hamilton's unionized voters fear for their jobs if Canadian industry is forced into expensive Kyoto compliance efforts?


Only the radical right wing actually believes that such a tradeoff is necessary.

I'm glad for Dion. I met him about 9 years ago at University. His English was a bit awkward, but he connects on both an intellectual and emotional level with his audience. He is a straight shooter, and makes no apologies in Quebec for his passionate defence of federalism. To be a real Quebecer it doesn't mean you need to be sovereignist.

[samne]

I'm looking at my msn and a lot of ppl write things about Stéphane Dion :

"Dion is now the chief. Where we are going?"

"Hilarious Dion is now the chief of PLC, what the fuck?"

"Stéphane Dion is the chief of PLC, wow, another reason for voting to the Bloc"

"Infoman said that : « Stéphane, we are beside you » HAHA the best joke of the year." (Infoman is a program from radio-canada)

"Well, I come back from Paris, and its Stéphane Dion the chief of PLC, what Stephen did?"

"Stéphane win. Canada loose."

"Stéphane Dion is now the chief of PLC, err, going to smoke a spliff."


probably comments from defensive Conservatives and Bloc-heads.

[trueviking]

^Yet I'm not sure that beyond rhetoric his environment record really stands up to much of anything. What was one contribution he made to getting climate change under control as env. minister?

i agree with you here....it could come back to bite him in the ass....the liberal record is no better than the con's....i do appreciate that he is finally making the environment a central debate in federal politics.....it is a snowballing issue in public conciousness....strategically it might work for him as well, because the perception is that it is a con weakness, even if his own record is no better....if he brands himself that way, people will forget his track record....i have heard him defend it by saying, i was only the minister for 18 months.

i think he needs to diversify the message a bit though...the environment is important, but he seems to be focussing a bit too much on it....it was 80% of his speech on friday.

his dog's name is kyoto.

[RaoulDuke]

I'm glad for Dion. ... His English was a bit awkward, but he connects on both an intellectual and emotional level with his audience. He is a straight shooter, and makes no apologies in Quebec for his passionate defence of federalism.

I'm glad for him, too; and my impression of him is the same as yours.

[YOWflier]

I was rooting for Kennedy or Ignatieff, but I'll give a chance to Dion to see what he has to offer. I can't help but feel that Dion winning was the best-case scenario for the Conservatives though ...

Either way, I'm ecstatic Rae didn't win.

[m0nkyman]

The polls over the next few weeks should be interesting. Until now, Liberal voters could choose who they thought would be the next leader in their head. Now, they know. The Cons and Dippers now have a stationary target. And here is the kicker. The stationary target is Another Lawyer From Quebec. Wow! The Liberals sure have changed!

Let's face it. This was the B team all the way, and Stephane won because the choice wanted was a status quo placeholder while the Libs serve their time out.

[duper]

Let's face it. This was the B team all the way, and Stephane won because the choice wanted was a status quo placeholder while the Libs serve their time out.

On the contrary, he is hardly a status quo placeholder. The Liberal establishment went out of their way to recruit two star leadership candidates: Ignatieff and Rae. Kennedy and Dion are both underdogs who had little if any support from the heads of the Liberal Party. Their support came from the grassroots who really wanted to send a message to the Liberal back room that they are sick of them selecting their leaders.

[m0nkyman]

On the contrary, he is hardly a status quo placeholder. The Liberal establishment went out of their way to recruit two star leadership candidates: Ignatieff and Rae. Kennedy and Dion are both underdogs who had little if any support from the heads of the Liberal Party. Their support came from the grassroots who really wanted to send a message to the Liberal back room that they are sick of them selecting their leaders.

If you consider someone who had to join the party in order to run, and someone who quite literally had to move countries to run 'star candidates', you're deluding yourself. The establishment won. Liberal conventions are organized that way. The convention attendees are the Liberal establishment.

[RaoulDuke]

The polls over the next few weeks should be interesting. Until now, Liberal voters could choose who they thought would be the next leader in their head. Now, they know. The Cons and Dippers now have a stationary target. And here is the kicker. The stationary target is Another Lawyer From Quebec. Wow! The Liberals sure have changed!

Let's face it. This was the B team all the way, and Stephane won because the choice wanted was a status quo placeholder while the Libs serve their time out.

Stéphane Dion is not a lawyer.

[RaoulDuke]

If you consider someone who had to join the party in order to run, and someone who quite literally had to move countries to run 'star candidates', you're deluding yourself. The establishment won. Liberal conventions are organized that way. The convention attendees are the Liberal establishment.

We need an operational definition of "establishment" and "star candidate" in order to be on the same page in our discussion. I think "star candidate" refers to high-profile candidates with the blessing of party brass (the "establishment"). The convention delegates were the rank and file, as opposed to the establishment. And duper seems quite lucid.

[Boris2k7]

No time wasted trashing Dion in Quebec

Jennifer Ditchburn, Canadian Press
Published: Sunday, December 03, 2006

MONTREAL — Stephane Dion’s first speech as Liberal leader was barely over before pundits and politicians in his home province had already declared him a menace to his party.

He can’t win in Quebec, he’s part of the federalist old guard, he’s too stubbornly opposed to the recognition nationalists are looking for — a familiar narrative that nagged prime minister Jean Chretien too.

“It’s clear that, on the nation question that remains a major issue in Quebec . . . people have a certain perception, and we’ll have to work on that perception,” said Francoise Boivin, a former Liberal MP.

That was a polite comment, compared to other grumbling from Quebec party stalwarts who were talking about political disaster. Montreal MP Denis Coderre, one of Michael Ignatieff’s chief organizers, was said to be ruminating about his future after Dion’s victory.

It was Ignatieff that had the most support among the Quebec rank-and-file — Dion had almost no high-profile endorsements from the province.

And among the Quebec media corps, the central question was much the same Sunday morning at Dion’s first new conference as leader: “How do you expect to deliver seats as leader when you’re so disliked?”

The University of Quebec at Montreal’s Alain Gagnon predicts Dion could only hope to gain 25-30 per cent of support in Quebec during a federal election.

“Stephane Dion is part of that centralizing, homogenizing logic — the equality of the provinces — that doesn’t correspond at all with the vision that Quebecers have of themselves within the federation,” Gagnon said.

“My feeling is that the Liberals will have great difficulties in making a breakthrough in Quebec. The strategy of Mr. Dion will be to try and make the elections about another issue than the nation question.”

Gagnon’s colleague Jean-Herman Guay from the University of Sherbrooke had a similar take in Sunday’s La Presse.

“Dion’s victory is that of the hardline, the old recipe: author of the plan B, with little support in Quebec, the new leader embodies a simplistic attitude that consists of believing that one should never cede anything and all concession would be used by sovereigntist adversaries to relaunch a new spiral of demands,” Guay wrote.

But how titanic is Dion’s challenge really in Quebec? He was afterall the only francophone, Quebec-born candidate on the ballot. And it was Dion that helped Paul Martin save a number of ridings — albeit federalist ones — in the last weeks of the 2004 election.

He’s also a strong supporter of sustainable development and the environment, a major issue in Quebec.
Michael Behiels, a Canada research chair in federal and constitutional studies, said Dion is the target of classic groupthink among Quebec “elites” who are mired in stagnant debates and old arguments about the constitution and sovereignty.

“That Quebec political class and the media and the intellectuals that fall into that trap are really far away from where the average francophone Quebecer lives,” said Behiels, based at the University of Ottawa.

“Trudeau always understood that, and ignored them and said, `Listen, my challenge is to reach the voters of Quebec, all of them, and you’re not going to stop me.’ Dion will do the same thing.”

Chretien, who brought Dion into politics in 1996, came to his defence after the convention.

“Don’t underestimate Quebecers,” Chretien told Radio-Canada. “They’ll see in (Dion) someone who his proud of the French language.”
© CP 2006

[m0nkyman]

Stéphane Dion is not a lawyer.
My bad. I assumed that he'd got his law degree from his work on the Clarity Act, and his letters to Bouchard. I was wrong. His field was Political Science, with a doctorate in Sociology, and he specialized in the study of public administration and organizational analysis and theory.

[samne]

“My feeling is that the Liberals will have great difficulties in making a breakthrough in Quebec. The strategy of Mr. Dion will be to try and make the elections about another issue than the nation question.”

which it should be...how about more important issues like Afghanistan, Social justice and the environment?

[LordMandeep]

The University of Quebec at Montreal’s Alain Gagnon predicts Dion could only hope to gain 25-30 per cent of support in Quebec during a federal election.

that would be a gain of like 7-10 seats??? That would likely bring them to minority govt...

[malek]

face it: the liberals are never going to win in places like the saguenay, which is what makes that la presse article so laughable. does it really matter what some liberal delegates from ridings that have never elected a liberal think?

Chicoutimi (Saguenay) has voted Liberal from 65 to 80, then 84-88 to the PC, then 93 bloc, 97 PC, 2000 Liberal, 2004 and 2006 to the Bloc.

Its not as "bloc" as you think, the lady is right to be worried.

If you want to create trouble with this province, elect a Quebecois Liberal as a prime minister. Trudeau was in post during the shit in the 70s and the first referendum, Chretin was there during the second referendum.

Dion is a french facade to the old Liberal guard.

[Andy6]

Trudeau was in office because of overwhelming support from every part of Quebec, including winning 74 of 75 seats, nearly all by clear majorities, in 1980.

We keep hearing that Quebeckers won't vote for federalist Liberals, yet in 2000 Jean Chrétien won about 35 seats in Quebec, and he was consistently re-elected as MP in what is otherwise a nationalist area of Quebec. It's not really that simple, so maybe Dion will impress people and expand the Liberals' current tiny base in Quebec -- I doubt it, but I wouldn't rule it out. I could see him crushing Duceppe in a debate -- Dion is extremely smart and has been debating nationalists in French most of his adult life.

[eemy]

If you consider someone who had to join the party in order to run, and someone who quite literally had to move countries to run 'star candidates', you're deluding yourself. The establishment won. Liberal conventions are organized that way. The convention attendees are the Liberal establishment.

Actually, this convention is more grassroots than any has ever been. In the past, different candidates would pay the costs for someone attending the convention. Now, the delegates had to pay their own ways, and so are far less beholden to the candidate they support.

In the past, there has been two factions in the Liberal Party, the social-populist and federalist wing represented by Trudeau and Chretien, and the fiscally conservative, light federalist wing represented by Turner and Martin. For the most part, the Chretienites were backing Rae, and the Martinites were backing Ignatieff. In this case, what was essentially a coalition between Kennedy and Dion supporters won, neither of who had support from the traditional party establishment.

[malek]

Trudeau was in office because of overwhelming support from every part of Quebec, including winning 74 of 75 seats, nearly all by clear majorities, in 1980.

We keep hearing that Quebeckers won't vote for federalist Liberals, yet in 2000 Jean Chrétien won about 35 seats in Quebec, and he was consistently re-elected as MP in what is otherwise a nationalist area of Quebec. It's not really that simple, so maybe Dion will impress people and expand the Liberals' current tiny base in Quebec -- I doubt it, but I wouldn't rule it out. I could see him crushing Duceppe in a debate -- Dion is extremely smart and has been debating nationalists in French most of his adult life.
People will always vote for the PM if he's in their riding, its called "voter du bon bord", vote for the good side. With all the perks that his riding got, of course people would vote for chretin.

And you're brushing off Duceppe, when in the last few debates he was always the one with the best arguments even if english isn't his languge. The last debate especially, he was designated the winner.

[trueviking]

The Cons and Dippers now have a stationary target. And here is the kicker. The stationary target is Another Lawyer From Quebec. Wow! The Liberals sure have changed!
.

i think most of the country would be more comfortable with a PHD from quebec than a professional politician from calgary any day.

traditionally canadians do not support or avoid a party because of the language the leader speaks....the liberal leader being french has never been an issue...it wont be now....a con leader from alberta was more of an issue to most than any french leader has ever been.

[trueviking]

And you're brushing off Duceppe, when in the last few debates he was always the one with the best arguments even if english isn't his languge. The last debate especially, he was designated the winner.

i dont understand the separatist affinity for duceppe....he's about as intelligent and charismatic as un-buttered, overcooked, multi grain toast.

its easy to win a debate when you only have one issue.

he isnt fit to carry levesque's or bouchard's lunch box.

[malek]

its easy to diminish the bloc as simply a separatist party, most ideas they defend in the house of commons are shared and affect canadians as well.

You may not like him, but he's doing his job.

lets' keep to the subject shall we?

[m0nkyman]

i think most of the country would be more comfortable with a PHD from quebec than a professional politician from calgary any day.
So, you think someone with his Masters in Political Science, a doctorate in Sociology, is somehow less of a 'professional politician' than a guy with a Masters degree in Economics?
Every single leader of a federal political party in Canada right now is a professional politician. Layton has a doctorate in Political Science, and has never worked outside of politics or academia.
Duceppe is the exception, lacking a post-secondary degree, and having actually worked for a living.. but the BQ isn't exactly a federal party. ;)

[Kilgore Trout]

my mistake about the saguenay. but i think you're totally off base by calling dion the old guard -- you don't realize that all of the chrétien and martin organizers were supporting ignatieff and rae? dion was totally isolated from the party establishment.

and that, i suppose, could be dion's biggest problem in quebec -- not his personal popularity, which i think is not altogether low (it's really just the media elite and sovereigntists who despise him) but rather his lack of organizational presence in quebec, since all of the quebec wing of the liberals supported ignatieff.

in other words, dion might suffer in quebec because he is not an establishment candidate.


How? He's an Ontario MPP. There aren't a lot of federal seats available in Toronto, either, although I guess Dion would owe it to him to force a sitting MP out to give him a spot if he wants it.

My guess is that Dion will be on his own now. Ignatieff won't run again, Rae will go back to law and Kennedy may prefer being an Ontario cabinet minister to being a federal opposition MP.


um, why wouldn't kennedy run for parliament? he's probably the biggest winner here: when he's elected he will land a plum and very prominent cabinet post. he can then position himself for his next leadership bid sometime in the future. there's no way he seriously expected to win this race and he wasn't just running for fun -- he was earning national recognition and building up political capital. career-wise, going back to provincial politics would do nothing for him.

as for ignatieff, he has said that he will run again and i'm willing to believe him. you're probably right about rae, though.

[m0nkyman]

i think most of the country would be more comfortable with a PHD from quebec than a professional politician from calgary any day.

traditionally canadians do not support or avoid a party because of the language the leader speaks....the liberal leader being french has never been an issue...it wont be now....a con leader from alberta was more of an issue to most than any french leader has ever been.
I never said anything about his language, just his regional background. I would not be complaining about a francophone from NB or Manitoba. There's just something about the Liberal machine in Quebec...

[Kilgore Trout]

as i pointed out earlier, however, the quebec liberal machine was supporting ignatieff, not dion. dion had the smallest budget and weakest organization of any of the major candidates.

[malek]

Dion is a Liberal old guard because of his agenda and ideolgy, not who is behind him.

As for budget? did he have any? hehehe

[Kilgore Trout]

well, yes, dion's vision of canada is a centralizing one and he does have more in common with trudeau and chrétien than martin or ignatieff. but i think you're putting too much stock in what the quebec pundits are saying, especially since they're pretty much venting their pent-up frustration over dion's tenure as intergovernmental affairs minister. basically, the francophone media and intellectuals of this province are extremely concerned with matters of national identity, but their concerns are not always reflected by the public at large, who are probably would like to see more investment in infrastructure or tax cuts or whatever than another meech lake.

dion's "agenda," which i can only interpret to mean his campaign platform, has nothing to do with quebec's constitutional status -- it has everything to do with the environment. i'm not sure how that plays into an old guard mentality.

[trueviking]

So, you think someone with his Masters in Political Science, a doctorate in Sociology, is somehow less of a 'professional politician' than a guy with a Masters degree in Economics?


what i meant was that harper has never held a job in his adult life that was not in politics.....dion was a professor for most of his....albeit teaching political science....splitting hairs, i know.

[m0nkyman]

what i meant was that harper has never held a job in his adult life that was not in politics.....dion was a professor for most of his....albeit teaching political science....splitting hairs, i know.
You mean that Harper's time spent working as a computer programmer in his twenties wasn't part of his adult life?

[trueviking]

You mean that Harper's time spent working as a computer programmer in his twenties wasn't part of his adult life?

i think it is hilarious that 'computer programmer in the oil industry' is always on his list of credentials.....he did this between the ages of 19 and 21, immediately after graduating high school...even in his official conservative party bio, he lists computer programmer in his work history....he did it when he was 19!

where did he learn to be a computer programmer exactly?...did they even have computers in 1978?...they certainly didnt teach them in high school then...obviously he was a coffee filler at an esso office and it is made out to be some kind of legitimate job....

it is like claiming that the girl who works the price scanner at the grocery is a 'computer operator in the food and drug industry'.

i am surprised he doesnt list his paper route as a kid as having worked in the 'communications industry'.

sorry...i know its off topic...i'm done.

[m0nkyman]

Well, speaking as a non-academic, I fail to see the difference between someone who has spent his entire life in politics and academia, and someone else who has spent his entire life in politics and academia, and another guy who has spent his entire life in politics and academia. For those not paying attention, that would be respectively, Harper, Layton and Dion. :shrug:

[duper]

Dion scores well in early polls
Tallies after the convention show the Liberal party head of the governing Tories

CAMPBELL CLARK AND BRIAN LAGHI
Globe and Mail Update
MONTREAL — There are early signs that Stéphane Dion and his party emerged from their weekend convention ahead of the governing Conservatives, for the first time since the Liberals' election defeat in January.

The Liberals moved six percentage points ahead of Stephen Harper's Tories, while a sizable majority of Quebeckers say the Liberals made a good choice, according to the survey conducted by The Strategic Counsel for The Globe and Mail and CTV.

The poll was taken in the hours after the convention, where Mr. Dion, with the endorsement of Gerard Kennedy, surged past front-runner Michael Ignatieff and Bob Rae to claim the Liberal crown.

It shows that if an election were held today, the Liberals led by Mr. Dion would garner 37 per cent of the vote, compared with 31 per cent for the Conservatives. The NDP polled 14 per cent, the Bloc Québécois 11 per cent, and the Green Party, 7.


Liberal support in the poll is up five percentage points from a Strategic Counsel survey in October. Most of the gain came in Ontario, at the expense of the NDP and the Green Party.

In Quebec, 62 per cent of respondents in the province said Mr. Dion was a good choice for the Liberals, with only 29 per cent saying he was a bad choice. The approval of the Liberals' pick was higher in Quebec than in the rest of the country, where 55 per cent like the choice.

Mr. Dion faces the possibility that Prime Minister Stephen Harper will try to engineer a quick election before he can properly unite his party and organize for a vote.

He must try to overcome doubts about his ability to win an election, especially in Quebec, where he is seen as a hard-line federalist, and members of his own party are nervous about his voter appeal.

The poll suggests that might still be an open question. Across Canada, 26 per cent said they would be less likely to vote Liberal now that Mr. Dion is leader, and 20 per cent said they would be more likely; 47 per cent said their vote would be unaffected.

"What this shows is he has a chance of accomplishing job one, which is the opportunity of coalescing the federalist vote in Quebec," said Allan Gregg, chairman of The Strategic Counsel. "In Ontario, these are the highest numbers that we have had for the Liberals since 2004."

Mr. Dion moved immediately yesterday to prepare for a possible election when he announced the formation of his transition team, to be led by former Chrétien-era cabinet minister Marcel Masse and Ottawa entrepreneur Rod Bryden, a party activist and key fundraiser.

"I am a quick learner," he told reporters in his first press conference as leader. "We don't have a lot of time, as you know. We may be in an election at any time."

He signalled that he intends to wrap the Liberal Party in the green colours of his leadership campaign, bringing the environmental-sustainability issue into "the heart" of the Liberal identity.

And while many in the Liberals' already-deflated Quebec francophone establishment privately expressed concerns that he cannot build support — leaving open the question of who will help him re-build the party's tattered organization there — Mr. Dion said he has a reply.

"People have always underestimated me. Perhaps it's good that people have underestimated me — it has worked for me," he said. "But I think I have built a relationship of mutual respect with Quebeckers. You feel it, you see it, and you will see it more and more."

Minutes after his victory, opposition politicians tried to tag Mr. Dion for being part of the Liberal Party during the scandal into misspending in the sponsorship program and for pushing a green agenda when greenhouse-gas emissions rose while he was environment minister.

"Like my father used to say when he was not impressed: 'Weak, mister, weak.' They have to find something a little better, I think," he said. He said his integrity is recognized and he does not feel the need to defend it, and admitted that greenhouse-gas emissions have increased. "So we should do more, not less. And that's what I will do."

Mr. Dion met for lunch yesterday with the seven defeated candidates, and the two leading candidates he defeated said they intend to run in the next election — with different degrees of enthusiasm "Oh yeah. I'm not going anywhere," Mr. Ignatieff, already a Toronto MP, told reporters. Mr. Rae, looking drained and puffy-eyed, was not quite so effusive. "Yes, that's still my intention," he said when asked if he will run.

One of Mr. Dion's first challenges will be a House of Commons vote Wednesday on reopening the same-sex marriage debate.

The poll shows that 58 per cent of Canadians are against repealing the law that legalized gay marriage, while 36 per cent are for. And 57 per cent do not even want Parliament to vote on whether it should be reopened. The poll surveyed 1,000 Canadians yesterday, and is accurate within 3.1 percentage points, 19 times in 20. The polling in Quebec used a sample of 247 and is considered accurate within 6.3 percentage points, 19 times out of 20.

[Dsa]

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/2186/milhousedion6yg.jpg

[caltrane74]

Looks like Dion is gonna Crush the conservatives in Ontario.

Back to the good ole dayz.

[WHISTLERINMUSKOKA]

Looks like Dion is gonna Crush the conservatives in Ontario.

Back to the good ole dayz.

I agree, Dion seems like a great choice for PM, sorry Harper, and Republican Americans.

[caltrane74]

With shakey support in Quebec and the West. The Liberals need to clean sweep the Maritimes and Ontario to win a Majority.

[Canadian Mind]

need both quebec and ontario or one of the two plys the maritimes and west to win a majority. Best he could get right now is a minority, however if he pulls the right strings he could line himself up for a majority come febuary.

Also, what is his stance on the military? will he mothball the thing or what? and what about afghanistan?

[caltrane74]

The West(Especially Alberta) is a lost cause for the Liberals. They need to focus on what they can win. Like Some Vancouver Seats some winnipeg seats. Maybe one Edmonton seat if they are lucky. Then focus on clean sweep of the maritimes and winning as many federalist seats in quebec as possible too nullify the Conservatives (in Quebec)

If they do that and clean Ontario. Its doable.

[The Chemist]

With shakey support in Quebec and the West. The Liberals need to clean sweep the Maritimes and Ontario to win a Majority.

The only province where a Dion lead Liberal party would be be seriously weak is Alberta, but the Liberals couldn't win a seat here under the current archaic voting system even with God himself as party leader. The environmental focus of Dion's platform, combined with a westerner in Kennedy as his chief lieutenant, should allow the Liberals to do quite well in Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and especially the lower mainland of BC and Vancouver Island.

[caltrane74]

Thats what I'm thinking Chemist.