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  #1  
Old Posted Mar 17, 2018, 2:48 AM
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Will the Rust Belt ever recover?

The Rust Belt would include cities like Detroit, Cleveland, Gary, Toledo, Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Youngstown, and many others.
     
     
  #2  
Old Posted Mar 17, 2018, 7:46 AM
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It already is. You asked a similiar - and equally broad - question in the "Proposed Detroit Highrises." I'd suggest a good look-around of the boards, here. You'll find a lot of answers.
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Old Posted Mar 17, 2018, 2:33 PM
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Originally Posted by JZambrano View Post
The Rust Belt would include cities like Detroit, Cleveland, Gary, Toledo, Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Youngstown, and many others.
The rustbelt needs to tell San Francisco to bite me

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  #4  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2018, 11:53 PM
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Detroit, Cleveland, and some other hard-hit industrial giants have GDP growth stronger than many of the metros touted here as successful. The tide may have already turned and we may just need a few years to see these revivals result in population growth. If the people of Cleveland are earning more and finding better career opportunities than those in Orlando, but Orlando grows by 250,000 and Cleveland shrinks by 5,000, which is a more economically healthy/stable place? My opinion is Cleveland.
     
     
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Old Posted Mar 30, 2018, 11:37 PM
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Detroit, Cleveland, and some other hard-hit industrial giants have GDP growth stronger than many of the metros touted here as successful. The tide may have already turned and we may just need a few years to see these revivals result in population growth. If the people of Cleveland are earning more and finding better career opportunities than those in Orlando, but Orlando grows by 250,000 and Cleveland shrinks by 5,000, which is a more economically healthy/stable place? My opinion is Cleveland.
Detroit, Cleveland, Gary, and many others have all yet to recover. They are still struggling cities. And the GDP is only barely improving. The aforementioned cities still suffer from population erosion, and until we see some population rebound, the cities have yet to recover. If the cities continue to lose population, then they could all become ghost towns, and Detroit especially is at great risk of becoming a ghost town. Population rebound matters way more than GDP growth.
     
     
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Old Posted Mar 31, 2018, 3:19 AM
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Lmao, parts of Detroit are already a ghost town, but the city itself isn’t going to disappear. Not only has the population decline slowed dramatically in recent years, people like to forget that it’s the historic center of a region home to 5 million people.
     
     
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Old Posted Mar 31, 2018, 1:22 PM
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Originally Posted by JZambrano View Post
Detroit, Cleveland, Gary, and many others have all yet to recover. They are still struggling cities. And the GDP is only barely improving. The aforementioned cities still suffer from population erosion, and until we see some population rebound, the cities have yet to recover. If the cities continue to lose population, then they could all become ghost towns, and Detroit especially is at great risk of becoming a ghost town. Population rebound matters way more than GDP growth.
Gary doesn't belong here, as it's essentially part of the Chicago metro area. Yes, Gary is struggling, as it has for decades. When pretty much all of your manufacturing base (therefore your job and tax base as well) closes up, of course you're going to struggle. But the NW Indiana area as a whole isn't necessarily struggling at all.

Cleveland... Well sure, the population in the city may still be declining somewhat, but the overall metro area isn't at this point. And the amount of renovation, urban renewal and new development throughout the core of the city is pretty amazing, quite frankly. And Cleveland has several world class medical and cultural institutions that will always bring an influx of cash to the city and the region as a whole.

Detroit? Yes, parts of it are certainly nearly totally depopulated. Yet other parts of it are coming back to life in pretty spectacular ways.

Honestly, I'm not even sure what you're really getting at here. If you honestly believe cities like Cleveland, Detroit along with numerous other rust-belt cities are truly going to disappear, you're sadly mistaken.

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Old Posted Mar 31, 2018, 2:34 PM
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I think that the people who most enjoy talking in a doom and gloom tone about the Midwest/rustbelt are sunbelters, in my experience on this forum.
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Old Posted Mar 31, 2018, 5:22 PM
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The only "ghost town" that's actually in danger of disappearing is Gary.

All the others a major population centers that aren't going anywhere and get plenty of investment, Detroit "especially" has GDP and population growth.
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Old Posted Mar 31, 2018, 6:51 PM
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Gary doesn't belong here, as it's essentially part of the Chicago metro area. Yes, Gary is struggling, as it has for decades. When pretty much all of your manufacturing base (therefore your job and tax base as well) closes up, of course you're going to struggle. But the NW Indiana area as a whole isn't necessarily struggling at all.

Cleveland... Well sure, the population in the city may still be declining somewhat, but the overall metro area isn't at this point. And the amount of renovation, urban renewal and new development throughout the core of the city is pretty amazing, quite frankly. And Cleveland has several world class medical and cultural institutions that will always bring an influx of cash to the city and the region as a whole.

Detroit? Yes, parts of it are certainly nearly totally depopulated. Yet other parts of it are coming back to life in pretty spectacular ways.

Honestly, I'm not even sure what you're really getting at here. If you honestly believe cities like Cleveland, Detroit along with numerous other rust-belt cities are truly going to disappear, you're sadly mistaken.

Aaron (Glowrock)
I am quite aware that Gary is part of the Chicago metro area, but the reason I included it is because the city has long suffered from urban blight, and it has lost so much of it’s manufacturing base, and it’s economy has deteriorated massively. And Gary does (or at least used to) have it’s own commuter base. So it’s basically any extra sizable city in Chicagoland.

As for Cleveland, there certainly has been some revitalization, but that was mainly for the downtown area. But in case you haven’t noticed, the city basically has a nicer West Side and a hellish East Side. And by just looking at most of the latter, it still has tons of blighted neighborhoods that has yet to be revitalized. So in order for Cleveland to get more optimal recovery, then the East Side is going to need some serious revitalization.

As for Detroit, it too will need to get it’s blighted neighborhoods revitalized as well in order to get optimal recovery.

And to deliver the final summary, it’s going to take more than downtown beautification in order to achieve more optimal recovery. The blighted neighborhoods need some serious fixing.
     
     
  #11  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2018, 7:20 PM
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Originally Posted by JZambrano View Post
As for Cleveland, there certainly has been some revitalization, but that was mainly for the downtown area. But in case you haven’t noticed, the city basically has a nicer West Side and a hellish East Side. And by just looking at most of the latter, it still has tons of blighted neighborhoods that has yet to be revitalized. So in order for Cleveland to get more optimal recovery, then the East Side is going to need some serious revitalization.
Replace west with north, and east with south, and you've basically described Chicago. And we all know how much of an utter urban failure Chicago is.

I think you are being unnecessarily hard on these cities. Have you even been to Cleveland, St. Louis, Cincinnati or Detroit? If you had been to them 15-20 years ago, and then visited them recently you would be floored by the changes they have undergone. I honestly can assure you that the recovery isn't simply confined to "downtown beautification" either.

Sure, there's a long and hard road ahead, but to think that any of these cities is somehow stuck in neutral is absurd.
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Old Posted Mar 31, 2018, 9:43 PM
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Replace west with north, and east with south, and you've basically described Chicago. And we all know how much of an utter urban failure Chicago is.

I think you are being unnecessarily hard on these cities. Have you even been to Cleveland, St. Louis, Cincinnati or Detroit? If you had been to them 15-20 years ago, and then visited them recently you would be floored by the changes they have undergone. I honestly can assure you that the recovery isn't simply confined to "downtown beautification" either.

Sure, there's a long and hard road ahead, but to think that any of these cities is somehow stuck in neutral is absurd.
No I was not implying that Chicago is an urban failure. I was just simply explaining the grim realities of Gary.

And for the aforementioned cities you’ve named I suggest you show me some photographs or YouTube videos of any recent revitalization, say within the past 18 months, then maybe I’ll be more convinced, and I demand specifically for all the blighted neighborhoods and not the downtown area.

And until I see some population rebound, the Rust Belt has yet to recover. Population is the universal language of a city or, in some cases, a region’s success.

I’ll tell you that Bakersfield is a real success story, and at the same time it’s one of the few US cities where the working class can break even. That’s right Bakersfield is a real success story, especially since it’s population is growing, not falling, and best of all, it has a predominately working class population.
     
     
  #13  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2018, 2:09 AM
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Originally Posted by JZambrano View Post
I’ll tell you that Bakersfield is a real success story, and at the same time it’s one of the few US cities where the working class can break even. That’s right Bakersfield is a real success story, especially since it’s population is growing, not falling, and best of all, it has a predominately working class population.
Are you referring to Bakersfield Missouri, or Bakersfield Vermont?
     
     
  #14  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2018, 3:23 AM
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Are you referring to Bakersfield Missouri, or Bakersfield Vermont?
Neither, I was referring to Bakersfield, California.
     
     
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Old Posted Apr 1, 2018, 3:44 AM
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Neither, I was referring to Bakersfield, California.
Never hear of it.
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Old Posted Apr 1, 2018, 12:31 PM
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I’ll tell you that Bakersfield is a real success story, and at the same time it’s one of the few US cities where the working class can break even. That’s right Bakersfield is a real success story, especially since it’s population is growing, not falling, and best of all, it has a predominately working class population.
And here's where the problem lies. Why is Bakersfield growing in population? Well, several reasons. Let me list them:

1) Unlimited land to sprawl, therefore land is CHEAP.
2) Demographics lead towards higher natural population growth, as in higher birthrates.
3) Massive amount of agricultural land that needs to be tended to, plus large oil and gas fields surrounding it.
4) Unlimited land to sprawl, therefore land (and housing) is CHEAP.
5-100) Repeat #4 ad-nauseum

Yes, I grew up in Ventura County, and yes, I also lived in Bakersfield for a year much later on. Bakersfield is basically a Texas/Oklahoma oilpatch and farm city in the southern San Joaquin Valley.

Take away the fact that it's by far the cheapest area to live in anywhere even remotely close to the Los Angeles area, and Bakersfield loses much of it's "appeal". Take away the oil/gas fields, even more disappears.

So now that we're done with that, what exactly does this have to do with Rust Belt cities? Last time I checked, it's nowhere near the Rust Belt. If your point is simply all about population, then I guess only Sunbelt cities are successful places, eh? Sprawling, spread-out Sunbelt cities. Sorry, not everyone wants to live in suburbia.

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  #17  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2018, 2:13 PM
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Old Posted Apr 2, 2018, 5:50 PM
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Originally Posted by glowrock View Post
And here's where the problem lies. Why is Bakersfield growing in population? Well, several reasons. Let me list them:

1) Unlimited land to sprawl, therefore land is CHEAP.
2) Demographics lead towards higher natural population growth, as in higher birthrates.
3) Massive amount of agricultural land that needs to be tended to, plus large oil and gas fields surrounding it.
4) Unlimited land to sprawl, therefore land (and housing) is CHEAP.
5-100) Repeat #4 ad-nauseum

Yes, I grew up in Ventura County, and yes, I also lived in Bakersfield for a year much later on. Bakersfield is basically a Texas/Oklahoma oilpatch and farm city in the southern San Joaquin Valley.

Take away the fact that it's by far the cheapest area to live in anywhere even remotely close to the Los Angeles area, and Bakersfield loses much of it's "appeal". Take away the oil/gas fields, even more disappears.

So now that we're done with that, what exactly does this have to do with Rust Belt cities? Last time I checked, it's nowhere near the Rust Belt. If your point is simply all about population, then I guess only Sunbelt cities are successful places, eh? Sprawling, spread-out Sunbelt cities. Sorry, not everyone wants to live in suburbia.

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I never implied that only Sunbelt cities are successful. There are plenty of cities outside of the Sunbelt, that have been successful, such as New York and Boston. And I must say we shouldn’t blame the success of the Sunbelt for the decline of the Rust Belt. You see a lot of the Sunbelt owes its success for providing an economy where the general population can benefit from. Sunbelt cities probably depend on a service based economy, thus it has mainly service jobs to provide, but the economy has been supplemented with light manufacturing, which really helped the economy a lot, and a lot of working class folks have flocked out to the Sunbelt as a result. As for the Rust Belt there’s no denying that shrinking it’s manufacturing base has deteriorated it’s economy.

And it’s an undeniable fact, that the Rust Belt is still struggling. It’s really no surprise that so much of the working class has flocked out to the Sunbelt.
     
     
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Old Posted Apr 2, 2018, 6:17 PM
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Gary doesn't belong here, as it's essentially part of the Chicago metro area. Yes, Gary is struggling, as it has for decades. When pretty much all of your manufacturing base (therefore your job and tax base as well) closes up, of course you're going to struggle.
this is a misconception that is frequently repeated about gary.

gary's manufacturing base did not pretty much all close up shop.

gary, as a one-company town, was ransacked by automation in the steel industry.

gary's US steel steel works is still the most productive steel mill in all of north america, but the problem is that it now only takes a fraction of the workers to produce steel today as it did in decades past.

in 1970, gary works employed 30,000 men with decent, family-providing, union-wage jobs. by 1995, that number had dwindled to just 5,000, even though the plant continued to produce gobs and gobs of steel.

that's why gary is the way it is today*. over the course of a quarter century, ~80% of the jobs at its namesake steel plant simply vanished into thin air thanks to the magic of automation. but the plant is still there, cranking out steel, just as it has for the past century.



(*) gary is also the way it is today because of some rather extreme white flight.
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Apr 2, 2018 at 6:44 PM.
     
     
  #20  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2018, 3:46 AM
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^ You could kind of say that about the entire rustbelt.

The wealth generating industries are all still there, but the beneficiaries of that wealth are a declining number of people. Wealth is more concentrated.
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