TORONTO l Oxford Place l 326 M / 1,070 FT x 2 l Norman Foster

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Tony

Provide your evidence, I did. The information is straight from the City Manager's office report with footnotes provided in the original text.

What city?

sources, sources, sources please! (especially about the part where wealthy globetrotters head for multi-million dollar casinos)

Sydney, Halifax? Both have higher median income than Toronto and have for decades. They also have lower unemployment than Toronto. Neither of these cities were economically depressed when they built their downtown casinos. Sydney's was so successful with international travelers that they want to build a 2nd one.

The rest you're going to have to find yourself. The information is all there in the public domain if you're willing to make an effort to familiarize yourself with the subject matter. I assume you're familiar with Google?

If you don't want a casino fine, but what's galling is having people spouting off nonsense when they haven't bothered to do any digging. That what I'm saying is all new to you speaks volumes. Are you really trying to tell me that you didn't know that tourism patterns in Toronto are changing significantly?

[haljackey]

Can't the province over-rule Toronto's decision not to build a casino? In Canada, cities are at the mercy of the province and there isn't anything they can do.

London now thinks it has a better chance of getting a casino now that Toronto has backed down lol.

[Tony]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Sydney, Halifax? Both have higher median income than Toronto and have for decades. They also have lower unemployment than Toronto. Neither of these cities were economically depressed when they built their downtown casinos. Sydney's was so successful with international travelers that they want to build a 2nd one.

The argument I put forth from the City Manager's report stated that only the already economically depressed cities / areas showed the most dramatic employment gains...I'm not saying that a casino in Toronto won't boost the economy, I'm saying that the employment gains may not be as noticeable as being touted due to displacement of other jobs caused by the creation of an inward looking casino complex. ie. People go to the casino, spend money only at the casino restaurants - this is by the typical intentional physical design of these casino complexes. The casino may infact close down existing businesses already in a thriving downtown core. Think of it like those failed downtown malls or suburban malls vs. Main Street.

Originally Posted by isaidso

The rest you're going to have to find yourself. The information is all there in the public domain if you're willing to make an effort to familiarize yourself with the subject matter. I assume you're familiar with Google?

Seriously? That's your so-called argument / evidence? What exactly should I be Googling smarty-pants? "globetrotting casinos"? So your response is to attack me for not spending time to familiarize myself with your argument?

Originally Posted by isaidso

If you don't want a casino fine, but what's galling is having people spouting off nonsense when they haven't bothered to do any digging. That what I'm saying is all new to you speaks volumes. Are you really trying to tell me that you didn't know that tourism patterns in Toronto are changing significantly?

No, I'm asking for your source that a single Casino complex brings plane-loads of people (which you've quoted from Taller,Better). What I'm trying to do is make sure YOU'RE not the one supposedly "spouting off nonsense" when you drag in tourism patterns.

[Tony]

Originally Posted by Gresto

I tend to side with much of what you wrote, Tony, but I believe a slight plurality of Torontonians were in favour of the casino, as I recall.

Just to clarify, an Ipos Reid survey in January (commissioned by the National Post did suggest that 54% of Torontonians support the casino). However, the Staff Report by the City, uses public consultation information prepared by DRPA. The results stated:

Among the 17,780 completed Feedback Forms, 66.3% indicated they were “strongly opposed” to a casino in Toronto and another 5% “somewhat opposed”

source: http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2...file-57336.pdf

The DRPA report is also available online on the City's website.

[Redkey]

I supported the casino, I would have liked it to be approved and built. But look at the city's response: 66% were strongly opposed, and council voted 40-4 to kill the casino. Torontonians have shown they don't want a casino, so why force it on them?

[Gresto]

Originally Posted by Tony

Just to clarify, an Ipos Reid survey in January (commissioned by the National Post did suggest that 54% of Torontonians support the casino). However, the Staff Report by the City, uses public consultation information prepared by DRPA. The results stated:
source: http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2...file-57336.pdf

The DRPA report is also available online on the City's website.

Yes, it must be the Ipsos-Reid poll I remember.

Anyway, I do hope this project moves forward without the attendant casino.

[cruzin4u]

Thanks to RiverCity1 at UT we have some information regarding this proposal.

"At the Land & Development Conference held today at the MTCC, the VP of development at Oxford Properties Group told the attendees that the plan is to still go ahead with the redevelopment plans of the convention space, the development of new office & residential towers, a hotel, green space over the train tracks, etc...basically everything included in their plan announced last year minus the casino. He stated that the casino really was minor and that the plan wasn't ever dependent on the casino being approved at this location anyway; it just would have helped to accelerate their plans."

[Gresto]

^Good, thanks for that.

[blacktrojan3921]

Makes me wonder though, without the casino, would they be able to afford those extravagant podiums that we saw in the renderings?

[yaletown_fella]

Originally Posted by blacktrojan3921

Makes me wonder though, without the casino, would they be able to afford those extravagant podiums that we saw in the renderings?

I hope so, the jetsons podium and glass bottom swimming pool was the best and most unique architectural feature. Hopefully they can replace that space with retail.

[caltrane74]

Killing the Hotel Towers altogether would save half a billion dollars. And if you replace the Casino with a Front Street Mall, which I've always thought as a better idea than the Casino, which will also pay for extensive upgrades to the public realm including the Park and Decking of the railway tracks.

Another idea would be to kill the Hotel Towers and then integrate the business functions of the Hotel Operations into the Norman Foster Designed Twin Towers

[koops65]

This will shut up all the people who said this project is dead if the casino isn't approved...

[isaidso]

We still need a much bigger convention centre, the office towers, and a hotel since the Intercontinental will be taken down. It will take more creativity and time on Oxford's part, but we might see this proposal remain largely intact.

That they plan to keep the park and that they said the proposal wasn't contingent on a casino are both good signs. Lets keep in mind that this is the same company building Hudson Yards so they're quite capable of pulling off huge complicated projects.

[DrNest]

I agree there would still be need for at least one, if not both of the hotel towers. I, too, like the idea of a large mall on Front St in the place where the casino would go. I would still like to see the casino built as part of this complex, but if it's not, then a large area of retail would also be something to draw the crowds here.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Tony

What exactly should I be Googling smarty-pants? So your response is to attack me for not spending time to familiarize myself with your argument?

Do you not know how to research by subject matter? If you couldn't be bothered to keep abreast of all the relevant subject matter over the last 10 years, of course it's your fault. It's certainly not my job to bring you up to speed.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by DrNest

I, too, like the idea of a large mall on Front St in the place where the casino would go. I would still like to see the casino built as part of this complex, but if it's not, then a large area of retail would also be something to draw the crowds here.

Agree. Build the space and fill it with something till the investment climate improves in Toronto. This is just round 1.

[franktko]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Do you not know how to research by subject matter? If you couldn't be bothered to keep abreast of all the relevant subject matter over the last 10 years, of course it's your fault. It's certainly not my job to bring you up to speed.

What you don't seem to understand is that when you bring facts to an argument, it's your job to back them up. That's the basic of debating on any subject...

[J. Will]

I hate the idea of a downtown casino. I'm not big on the idea of a full-fledged casino in Toronto in general actually, but if there has to be one, Woodbine is the place that makes sense. They've already go all the video terminals, so they wouldn't even have to expand much, as the gaming tables could largely take the place of the video terminals. People play those video slots now because it's more than an hour's drive to the nearest real casino. Were there a real casino at Woodbine, there would be far less demand for the video slots.

[ih8pickingusernames]

The new Star Trek movie has a building that looks exactly like this proposal.

[cruzin4u]

Originally Posted by ih8pickingusernames

The new Star Trek movie has a building that looks exactly like this proposal.

The one on the left?