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  #81  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2007, 7:32 AM
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Originally Posted by spiritedenergy View Post
you don't tell my what to vote, that's for sure. my ideology is communism and socialism, i want people to be equal, i want Adam Smith's theories to be disregarded since they're bringing the whole world to a painful end. what's the matter in having more money, then investing them to have more money, then investing them again... while all natural resources are exploited, we should stop this foolishness.

and you're so wrong about Sweden and northern Europe, their GDP per capita is far higher then wild capitalist Canada, and their quality of life is hundred times better.
Sorry to burst your little bubble... communism died because it leaves people poor and hungry.. if thats what you hope for Manitoba than great... give away the few pennies you might have and ask some government beauricarat to kick the snot out of you daily.

Socialism is also dead.. it survives in text books only. Even your examples are fairly open to free enterprise. Sweden which isn't endowed with off shore oil, makes many suggestions Norway should share its significnat wealth, but sadly is turned away... so it is left with a minimal economy in relitive terms compared to the rest of the contieient, except the former communist nations... but even those economies are starting to see amazing growth under capitist rule. Look at Poland and Czech Rep .. very strong growth, considering how screwed everything was left by the communists. Today there is mind blowing levels of investments occuring in these nations.
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  #82  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2007, 7:35 AM
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Originally Posted by 1ajs View Post
umm irlands econimy is atm tanking................... due to minum wage being jacked up


Tell you what.. at least take some basic economics.

Also please look into and annual special feature put out by the Economist. It breaks down the world economy by region and nation. It is very insightful.

Although jacking up minimum wages doesn't help anything. The most effienct allocation of wages is those determined by the economy. Supply and demand.
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Last edited by newflyer; Jan 21, 2007 at 7:42 AM.
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  #83  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2007, 7:45 AM
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Sorry to burst your little bubble... communism died because it leaves people poor and hungry.. if thats what you hope for Manitoba than great... give away the few pennies you might have and ask some government beauricarat to kick the snot out of you daily.

Socialism is also dead.. it survives in text books only. Even your examples are fairly open to free enterprise. Sweden which isn't endowed with off shore oil, makes many suggestions Norway should share its significnat wealth, but sadly is turned away... so it is left with a minimal economy in relitive terms compared to the rest of the contieient, except the former communist nations... but even those economies are starting to see amazing growth under capitist rule. Look at Poland and Czech Rep .. very strong growth, considering how screwed everything was left by the communists. Today there is mind blowing levels of investments occuring in these nations.
i don't really know why you're saying that sweden economy is performing poorly:

Quote:
The Swedish economic picture has brightened significantly since the severe recession in the early 1990s. Growth has been strong in recent years, and even though the economy slackened during the first half of 2001, the long-run prospects for growth remain favorable. The inflation rate is low and stable, with projections for continued low levels over the next 2-3 years. Since the mid-1990s the export sector has been booming, acting as the main engine for economic growth. Swedish exports also have proven to be surprisingly robust. A marked shift in the structure of the exports, where services, the IT industry, and telecommunications have taken over from traditional industries such as steel, paper, and pulp, has made the Swedish export sector less vulnerable to international fluctuations. At the same time the Swedish industry has received less money for its exports while the import prices have gone up. During the period 1995-2003 the export prices were reduced by 4% at the same time as the import prices climbed by 11%. The net effect is that the Swedish terms-of-trade fell 13%. [3]
Also:
GDP growth 2.7% (2005 est.)
GDP per capita $29,800 (2005 est.)
Unemployment 5.8% (2005 est.)

I don't wish anything to Manitoba, I'm a passer-by here... I want to go to China, a communist country that is quickly taking over USA as world leader.

edit: well, i'm joking here, i don't really like China... or maybe I do?
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Last edited by spiritedenergy; Jan 21, 2007 at 7:54 AM.
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  #84  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2007, 7:45 AM
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In order to turn Manitoba into a "have province" it is necessary in incourage capital investment. Since GDP per capita is directly related to productivity per capita, it is imparitive that capital investment is encouraged in order to increase productivity.

For those of you who haven't been keeping up on the tax policies of Manitoba .. Manitoba is one of the few remaining jurisdictions which penalizes and discourages companies which want to invest in new capital. (ie: machines, technology, modern equipment and buildings)

While this as other taxes increase government revenue over the short term it cripples an economy over the longer term, as its capital base falls further and further behind.

I saw a very interesting feature on business investment, which discribed the type of new warehouses are being built. They are larger, which much higher cieling hieghts, able to dock larger trucks with larger capacities. They are much more automated than older buildings. They newer warehouses make it much more efficient to load and unload larger loads of goods. Buildings which don't meet the newer demands of the transportaion industry are being left behind.

While this is just an example of the capital demands of a particular industry, you can see how imparitive it is for a province to encourage capital investment to keep its competitive edge. It is similar across the board.. all indutsries are continually modernizing and creating efficiences. If Manitoba discourages its business base from investing in modern capital it won't have a very efficient economy.. thus have a lower productivity level per capita.. realitive to other economies.

Manitoba needs to focus on improving its efficiencies. This is not a new concept, as its been around for centuries, as the regions which offer the most efficiencient economies see the highest highest levels of wealth. Currently Manitoba slunks around with a high tax low investment government policy. If Manitoba wants to increase its output per capita it needs to modernize its economy... through capital investment.

This is my answer to increasing Manitoba's wealth.. thus making it a Have Province. It is not a part of some political debate. It is simply the economic answer to building the GDP per capita.
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  #85  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2007, 7:54 AM
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Originally Posted by spiritedenergy View Post
i don't really know why you're saying that sweden economy is performing poorly:



Also:
GDP growth 2.7% (2005 est.)
GDP per capita $29,800 (2005 est.)
Unemployment 5.8% (2005 est.)

I don't wish anything to Manitoba, I'm a passer-by here... I want to go to Cina, a communist country that is quickly taking over USA as world leader.
Ummmm.. perhaps you don't understand what you post. Its talks about increased exports.. IT sector and telecommunications... all capitalist. It doesn't talk about some great economic method of ignoring capitist investment. The econmy grows inspite of its ideology. Also note that a declining terms of trade is a bad thing.. not good.

China is also about the furthist thing from a communism you can find.. other than the government dictatorship and dealth camps (ie: prisons) for those who oppose it. Other than that they welcome large American corporations with open arms. McDonald's ... Starbuck and Walmart are thriving there. Not exactly what I consider an anti-capitaist society.

I do agree with you though China is booming with its new capitalist outlook. I might like to go there myself some day.. big money to be made!!


Perhaps you'd rather live in Cuba... although you might want to avoid the thousands of cubans who risk life and limb to esape its horrible economic conditions, as it might further hinder your romantic views of national poverty.
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Last edited by newflyer; Jan 21, 2007 at 8:04 AM.
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  #86  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2007, 8:36 AM
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Oh man, can somebody please get this guy a bowl of Borscht..


He can make his own borscht. Just give him a head of cabbage.
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  #87  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2007, 8:37 AM
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no you need beats your thinking holopchi
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  #88  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2007, 8:41 AM
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Ah yes, holopchi. I get the two confused.
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  #89  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2007, 8:46 AM
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Ah yes, holopchi. I get the two confused.
o and don't forget to get your kanish's at gunns
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  #90  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2007, 10:03 AM
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Sweden is only growing because it realized in the mid-1990s that its system of extreme welfare capitalism would soon bankrupt the country, and the people voted for change. China is experiencing rapid growth because they are becoming more capitalist every day. It's that simple...
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  #91  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2007, 5:44 PM
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Sweden is only growing because it realized in the mid-1990s that its system of extreme welfare capitalism would soon bankrupt the country, and the people voted for change. China is experiencing rapid growth because they are becoming more capitalist every day. It's that simple...
Capitalism rules!! The sooner Manitoba figures this out the better.


... and Gordon Gekko is the man!!!
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  #92  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2007, 5:46 PM
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SOON EVEN REGINA WILL LEAPFROG US

By TOM BRODBECK




You know your economy is substandard when the mayor of your own capital city says we've been sitting on our duffs too long and watching other cities pass us by.

Worse, you know you're in trouble when your provincial chamber of commerce launches a new campaign called "Making Manitoba a Have Province."

Ouch.

Seems to fly in the face of all propaganda the Doer government -- and their media supporters -- have been bombarding us with in recent months.

"Manitoba is booming," the government says, claiming the province is leading Canada on many economic fronts. Right.

If that were true, Mayor Sam Katz would have claimed confidently this past week during his state of the city address that Winnipeg's economy -- which makes up at least two-thirds of the provincial economy -- is booming, too.

He wouldn't dwell on how substandard our economy is and how hard we need to work to climb out of a hole.

If we truly were leading the country and experiencing record levels of prosperity, he would have said so and taken some political credit for it.

'Passed us by'

Instead, he said this:

"My friends, for too many years, our city has just sat back as Vancouver, then Calgary and then Edmonton passed us by," Katz told a Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce luncheon crowd Wednesday. "Sure we told ourselves that they had inherent competitive advantages like geography and oil. In reality, we just gave up. We didn't even try to be more competitive."

Doesn't sound like a booming economy to me.

Katz told the crowd we have to get off our butts and turn this city around if we want to compete in an increasingly global economy.

"To attract businesses to move here, it's not good enough to be at the national average or the same as a neighbour," said Katz. "We need to be the best. Businesses and jobs can virtually pick up at the drop of a hat and relocate to Alberta or Minnesota and now even Singapore or India."

It's quite a contrast from the Doer government's "Manitoba means business" campaign, which claims:

"Manitoba enjoys one of the healthiest, most diversified business economies in Canada. Our strong, steady growth coupled with such important advantages as low energy costs, a very competitive cost-of-living, a skilled, hard-working labour force and very attractive business taxes (that's a belly-laugh) help make Manitoba businesses extremely competitive whether they're doing business within Canada or around the world."

Either Katz is missing something here or the provincial government is being less than honest with the public.

"This city needs to change if it is going to prosper and grow," said Katz.

Now, the world of Winnipeg is not all doom and gloom, according to Katz. He says over the past year, Winnipeg's economy has seen some signs of improvement.

"We have been working, taking the tough but necessary steps to put Winnipeg back on a pathway to opportunity and economic growth," said Katz.

"The fact is that Winnipeg is experiencing a resurging economy. After slow job growth in recent years and decades, Winnipeg was up over 6,000 jobs in 2006, and this trend is expected to continue in 2007."

Now all this may just be political spin -- Doer's spin and Katz's spin.

But you've got to ask yourself this question:

Why did the Manitoba Chambers of Commerce, one of the province's biggest cheerleaders, just launch a campaign called "Making Manitoba a Have Province?"

Shame

What's that all about? According to Doer, we're not only a "have" province, we have one of the leading economies in Canada.

Shame the chamber, which represents some of the biggest companies in the province, fails to see that.

They must be among the "naysayers" Doer and his media cheerleading squad always tell us about.

The chamber's campaign includes something called "Join the Journey: Towards a Have Future."

Towards a have future? I thought we were a "have" economy already.

As a keen watcher of all issues economic, I'm going to put my chips on the Katz-chamber number.

Manitoba's economy is steady, but very modest. We are a "have-not" province because we rely increasingly on federal transfer payments to survive -- federal money that comes from provinces more prosperous than us, including Saskatchewan.

We did, as Katz said, let cities like Vancouver, Calgary and Edmonton pass us by, with all the excuses in the world to justify it.

As a province, we just let Saskatchewan pass us by, too.

It's not a crisis. We're not in an economic tail-spin. Far from it. We have very steady but mediocre growth. But it's a pace so slow that others are leapfrogging ahead of us.

The question is, as a city and a province, are we prepared to do something about it?

Or are we going to wait until Regina passes us by, too?

tbrodbeck@wpgsun.com
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  #93  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2007, 5:52 PM
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A modern efficient economy relies on large capital investment... even beyond buildings (GASP!!)
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  #94  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2007, 5:59 PM
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Excuses will not do anymore... Manitoba needs to build a better economy.

I get the feeling Manitobans are sick and tired of excuses from leftwing politians. You notice how Katz states the real situation... the current economy is just not accetable. We need to build the economy with growth polices. The city will be focusing on attracting more business investment and more businesses. The fact is the multiplier effect of private investment is much higher than government spending.. which is why fat government creates a weak economic situation.

It makes me sick that Manitoba has allowed its economy fall behind so far. The economy has just not been a focus for far too long.

Excuses are just not acceptable any more!!
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  #95  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2007, 6:05 PM
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Oh really???... go tell that to Irland.. Denamrk .. New Zealand. All former socalist economies which were sucking air.. turned capitalist and now see much stronger growth. Infact Irland is seen by many as a model of how it is possible to turn an economy around.


Lowering taxes increases economic growth.. this is just fact.
Ireland also provided lots of financial incentives(subsidies) to companies to locate there and it was also aided by E.U. money to keep education and other social neccessities up to par. Low taxes certainly help, but its not the only trick Ireland used.
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  #96  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2007, 6:27 PM
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my ideology is communism and socialism, i want people to be equal
I'd like a pony, too, but somehow I doubt that's going to happen.

Ideologies are wonderful in your head, but they don't often work in the real world. Here's a little secret that the NDP doesn't want you to know, kids: PEOPLE AREN'T EQUAL. I know, I know, it's shocking and scandalous to hear at first.

What many of our younger forumers may or may not know is that the NDP used to actually campaign on this basis. They had candidates whose platform consisted of things like "salary equalization", which was a policy intended to pay EVERYONE the exact same amount of money, regardless of work performed, skill level, or anything. The joke about it was "you should pay surgeons the same salary as garbagemen because picking up the garbage is just as important to society as healthcare."

What these people of course failed to realize is that any joe schmoe off the street is capable of being a garbageman, pretty much from the day he or she is 14 years old. A surgeon takes skill, years of education, and isn't something just anyone can do. Me? I'd make a terrible doctor. Should someone make more money than me because they can do something I can't? I personally think so. And so does every successful society in the history of humankind.

If we paid the garbageman and the surgeon the same wage, why on earth would anyone ever want to go into medicine? All those years of sacrifice, much longer working hours, needing to be able to do things others cannot - or, you can just take an easy job and haul shit around 9-5. Communism and extreme socialism tend to ignore the concept of "incentive" and assume people are just willing to work their asses off for the benefit of society. Hate to break it to you folks, but if people were willing to do that, we wouldn't NEED things like welfare or UI.

I mock the NDP because of things like that. People are not equal. Period. You cannot make them equal. We should provide equal OPPORTUNITIES to people, but what they choose to do with those is up to them - we should not drag everyone else down to the bottom just so slackers feel better about themselves.
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  #97  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2007, 6:29 PM
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Ireland also provided lots of financial incentives(subsidies) to companies to locate there and it was also aided by E.U. money to keep education and other social neccessities up to par. Low taxes certainly help, but its not the only trick Ireland used.
^ does the EU have a similar kind of "have" and "have-not" wealth distribution - where weatlhier countries pay in, and poorer countries receive?

And if that is the case - then isn't Ireland a "have-not" country?
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  #98  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2007, 6:41 PM
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I'd like a pony, too, but somehow I doubt that's going to happen.

Ideologies are wonderful in your head, but they don't often work in the real world. Here's a little secret that the NDP doesn't want you to know, kids: PEOPLE AREN'T EQUAL. I know, I know, it's shocking and scandalous to hear at first.

What many of our younger forumers may or may not know is that the NDP used to actually campaign on this basis. They had candidates whose platform consisted of things like "salary equalization", which was a policy intended to pay EVERYONE the exact same amount of money, regardless of work performed, skill level, or anything. The joke about it was "you should pay surgeons the same salary as garbagemen because picking up the garbage is just as important to society as healthcare."

What these people of course failed to realize is that any joe schmoe off the street is capable of being a garbageman, pretty much from the day he or she is 14 years old. A surgeon takes skill, years of education, and isn't something just anyone can do. Me? I'd make a terrible doctor. Should someone make more money than me because they can do something I can't? I personally think so. And so does every successful society in the history of humankind.

If we paid the garbageman and the surgeon the same wage, why on earth would anyone ever want to go into medicine? All those years of sacrifice, much longer working hours, needing to be able to do things others cannot - or, you can just take an easy job and haul shit around 9-5. Communism and extreme socialism tend to ignore the concept of "incentive" and assume people are just willing to work their asses off for the benefit of society. Hate to break it to you folks, but if people were willing to do that, we wouldn't NEED things like welfare or UI.

I mock the NDP because of things like that. People are not equal. Period. You cannot make them equal. We should provide equal OPPORTUNITIES to people, but what they choose to do with those is up to them - we should not drag everyone else down to the bottom just so slackers feel better about themselves.
Very good points!! In addition communist nations fall far behind in technology development.. as there is no incentive to invent anything new.. nor is there much capital investment which allows the most efficient use of resources. It took Soviet Union 40 years to collapse... and was left with 40 year old technology for the most part. except what they could steal from the capitiast society. So the communist nations were very dependant on the capitalist society. Very Sad ideology!!
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  #99  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2007, 6:42 PM
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Ideologies are wonderful in your head, but they don't often work in the real world.
Agreed. So why is there so much spouting of free market ideology on this forum? Notice that the right wingers constantly refer to first year economics textbooks? Did they only get as far as first year economics?
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  #100  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2007, 6:53 PM
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Agreed. So why is there so much spouting of free market ideology on this forum? Notice that the right wingers constantly refer to first year economics textbooks? Did they only get as far as first year economics?

In my case I have a very broad economics education, including corporate finance courses. I have studied Kaynes, Freidman, Admas, Fisher among others. I also have a broad business knowledge which provides me the understanding of what policies effect investment decisions.

I think the only reason first year economics courses are mentioned is it is very difficult to discuss economic issues with people who have no concept of basic economics. The general concepts of market economcs is covered in a first year Micro and Macro econ... once that level of knowledge is achieved the conection of supply and demand will be much clearier.

Its like discussing physics with someone who has never taken a physics course. I don't expect someone to have to compete a degree to hold an intelliegent communication, but aleast learn the basics.
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