Winnipeg City Transit/Rapid Transit

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by flatlander

I don't understand you guys who can't tell the difference in ride quality between BRT and LRT. It is significant. You get what you pay for.

True, but how much of the city's extremely scarce resources should be diverted into improving ride quality on one transit line? Is this worth hundreds of millions of dollars? It seems to me that BRT could make a lot of sense for Winnipeg. It makes a real improvement at a fairly reasonable cost and is easily expandable.

[flatlander]

Originally Posted by Andy6

True, but how much of the city's extremely scarce resources should be diverted into improving ride quality on one transit line? Is this worth hundreds of millions of dollars? It seems to me that BRT could make a lot of sense for Winnipeg. It makes a real improvement at a fairly reasonable cost and is easily expandable.

Right, but this is what you wrote:

"I have a feeling this is mostly about the image anyway so why not concentrate on the appearance rather than the extremely expensive reality of LRTs."

It's not about image. It's about quality and service. Maybe we can't afford LRT but to pretend BRT and LRT are equal in terms of service and comfort is not realistic.

[Spocket]

Originally Posted by jimj_wpg

Spoket, do you work for Winnipeg Transit or New Flyer or maybe have stock in one of the oil companies?

Now why would you say that ? Winnipeg Transit would probably love to have LRT as much as anyone. The oil companies probably aren't holding their collective breath and getting giddy at the prospect of any city investing in BRT. In fact, I would think that they stand to lose in the long run on that count since buses are rapidly switching over to hybrid technology.

What I'm saying is that we can't afford it, don't need it, and if we ever do, it's a lot easier to convert a BRT line to an LRT line than to start from scratch anyway. We talk about the quality of the ride yet, really, that strikes me as a non-issue. Frankly, I'm not sure what difference it really makes for the average passenger who would spend no more than fifteen minutes on the bus from downtown to the U of M anyway. After all, isn't this about moving people quickly ? If people find the current buses to be reasonably comfortable to ride in, why should they take issue with the ride on buses that stop considerably fewer times and run on their own dedicated roadway ?

BRT is a great start. There's simply no need to spend so many more millions on an LRT system that it will take us decades to hit capacity on. BRT will probably help speed the process up considerably by attracting developers to the vicinity of the stations and therefore help densify the corridor.

I think we'd all prefer LRT so I appreciate what you're saying of course. I just don't think it's feasible or warranted is all.

[h0twired]

Originally Posted by Greco Roman

Alright man. That's enough. No need for mocking and ridicule.

It's actually not mocking or ridicule. It is the truth.

Winnipeggers only hate the BRT plan because it isn't an LRT plan.

They don't care about rapid transit. They just care about getting a choo-choo train like the other cities they envy.

[1ajs]

^^^ kinda true

[hexrae]

Originally Posted by h0twired

It's actually not mocking or ridicule. It is the truth.
...
They just care about getting a choo-choo train like the other cities they envy.

And this is what exactly? More truth?

[Reed Solomon]

Originally Posted by h0twired

It's actually not mocking or ridicule. It is the truth.

Winnipeggers only hate the BRT plan because it isn't an LRT plan.

They don't care about rapid transit. They just care about getting a choo-choo train like the other cities they envy.

Nope, its mocking and ridicule and completely trollish.

Winnipeggers care about NOT WAITING HALF AN HOUR IN -30 WEATHER FOR A BUS. Winnipegers care about NOT BEING LATE FOR WORK. Winnipegers care about having a COMFORTABLE MASS TRANSIT EXPERIENCE.

You know why I would prefer light rail? Because even though its expensive, it would lead to re-routing of current inefficient bus routes, it would push Winnipeg transit into the 21st century. This city also has a rail history/streetcar history which while not necessarily calculable to the cost of LRT still evokes that spirit of Winnipeg as a railway center. Which would work great with Postcards, giving a face for tourism, because not only Winnipegers like trains, people everywhere have a fascination with trains. That's why you have toy train hobbyists, and no BRT hobbyists.

And I don't believe that in the end Light Rail is that much more cost prohibitive than BRT. I just don't. Heck a random google search for light rail myths finds this page which to my mind seems reasonably laid out anyways.

[The Jabroni]

Originally Posted by Reed Solomon

Nope, its mocking and ridicule and completely trollish.

Winnipeggers care about NOT WAITING HALF AN HOUR IN -30 WEATHER FOR A BUS. Winnipegers care about NOT BEING LATE FOR WORK. Winnipegers care about having a COMFORTABLE MASS TRANSIT EXPERIENCE.

You know why I would prefer light rail? Because even though its expensive, it would lead to re-routing of current inefficient bus routes, it would push Winnipeg transit into the 21st century. This city also has a rail history/streetcar history which while not necessarily calculable to the cost of LRT still evokes that spirit of Winnipeg as a railway center. Which would work great with Postcards, giving a face for tourism, because not only Winnipegers like trains, people everywhere have a fascination with trains. That's why you have toy train hobbyists, and no BRT hobbyists.

And I don't believe that in the end Light Rail is that much more cost prohibitive than BRT. I just don't. Heck a random google search for light rail myths finds this page which to my mind seems reasonably laid out anyways.

The only way that this city can really go into the 21st century is to stop being cost conscious and start spending the money right with an LRT system. We can't wait any longer because if we do, people WILL continue to be late for work, and people WILL still be waiting in -30 degree temperatures.

I definitely agree with you. We can't afford to be cheapskates anymore. It seems ironic, but this sort of attitude has to seriously stop.

[Kinguni]

I haven't seen a press release yet but don't consider the Transit worker issue over yet. It has to be voted on by the membership, and considering it's virtually unchanged aside from the Sunday shift issue going to the arbitrator, and a couple of letters of intent which the city is notorious for not following through on, you may wake up to no bus service on August 21st. It's going to be a close vote.

[LilZebra]

Using the City's most recent traffic count data, I've compiled a table showing the counts at the Wilson subway stations:


http://www.truwinnipeg.org/2008/08/0...affic-volumes/

65,00 - 72,000 vehicles Pembina @ Stafford... WOW!

68,500 vehicles Main @ Pacific... WOW!

49,000 - 58,000 Portage @ Sherbrook/Maryland... WOW!

[hexrae]

Many of the people that use Pembina and Stafford, likely cross at Portage and Maryland/Sherbrook. So, I make that as a case for strong North/South traffic via that route. I utilize that every workday, living in the West End and working near the U of M. So, obviously, I'd directly benefit from this planned rapid transit corridor.

With that said, is there any other section of this city more deserving of a rapid transit corridor than Downtown and U of M? The University population is more prone to use public transit since they're students; it's the more cost-efficient mode of travel. Of course, there's the South Winnipeg "favouritism" conspiracy to deal with, but is it sufficient to counter that argument with the fact that land is more easily acquirable from Downtown to the U of M?

[Reed Solomon]

Originally Posted by hexrae

there's the South Winnipeg "favouritism" conspiracy to deal with

Well, its not a conspiracy so much as a fact.

But I agree that a university rapid transit route is probably the most important. Followed by Portage/Airport to Downtown/The Forks, and east winnipeg then maybe main street. That's probably sufficient for most people. Everything else can be served by regular transit.

I still don't get why Light Rail would cost so much. We've got abandoned lines already that are fit for rapid transit lines, and they're FLAT, most expenses for light rail are for overpasses and tunnels. Otherwise its not much worse in the end than bus rapid transit. ITS ELECTRIC! We live in a province with abundant electricity! Theres plenty of land to do it! It drives me crazy! We could be saving so much money in the long term, and if gas prices go up, we wouldn't be as crippled for future rate hikes if there was a substantial electrical component to the transit infrastructure. We'll never get to the next stage as a city if we keep thinking backwards.

[spiritedenergy]

so they will build a new roadway just for the busway adjacent to already existing rail lines?

Also, if the busway will have "half a dozen" stops, I hope they will re-route the buses to go there and make them accessible.

[newflyer]

Originally Posted by Reed Solomon

Nope, its mocking and ridicule and completely trollish.

Winnipeggers care about NOT WAITING HALF AN HOUR IN -30 WEATHER FOR A BUS. Winnipegers care about NOT BEING LATE FOR WORK. Winnipegers care about having a COMFORTABLE MASS TRANSIT EXPERIENCE.

You know why I would prefer light rail? Because even though its expensive, it would lead to re-routing of current inefficient bus routes, it would push Winnipeg transit into the 21st century. This city also has a rail history/streetcar history which while not necessarily calculable to the cost of LRT still evokes that spirit of Winnipeg as a railway center. Which would work great with Postcards, giving a face for tourism, because not only Winnipegers like trains, people everywhere have a fascination with trains. That's why you have toy train hobbyists, and no BRT hobbyists.

And I don't believe that in the end Light Rail is that much more cost prohibitive than BRT. I just don't. Heck a random google search for light rail myths finds this page which to my mind seems reasonably laid out anyways.

Good points ... modern monorail is a fraction of LRT .. and is just as efficient. Winnipegers need to realize that there are more than just 2 options. Ulta-modern cities in Asia are starting to utilize monorail, as is Las Vegas and a handful of other American cities are examining it as a viable option.

[newflyer]

Originally Posted by Reed Solomon

Nope, its mocking and ridicule and completely trollish.

Winnipeggers care about NOT WAITING HALF AN HOUR IN -30 WEATHER FOR A BUS. Winnipegers care about NOT BEING LATE FOR WORK. Winnipegers care about having a COMFORTABLE MASS TRANSIT EXPERIENCE.

You know why I would prefer light rail? Because even though its expensive, it would lead to re-routing of current inefficient bus routes, it would push Winnipeg transit into the 21st century. This city also has a rail history/streetcar history which while not necessarily calculable to the cost of LRT still evokes that spirit of Winnipeg as a railway center. Which would work great with Postcards, giving a face for tourism, because not only Winnipegers like trains, people everywhere have a fascination with trains. That's why you have toy train hobbyists, and no BRT hobbyists.

And I don't believe that in the end Light Rail is that much more cost prohibitive than BRT. I just don't. Heck a random google search for light rail myths finds this page which to my mind seems reasonably laid out anyways.

Good points. I would also state that modern monorail is a fraction of LRT .. and is just as efficient. Winnipegers need to realize that there are more than just 2 options. Ulta-modern cities in Asia are starting to utilize monorail, as is Las Vegas (Bombardier Monorail System) and a handful of other American cities are examining it as a viable option.

[LilZebra]

So far in the past week I've ridden two buses with the newly installed GPS and next stop announcement system.

Bus #580 and 586.

The bus operator of 580 told me there are just 10 buses with this equipment.

The compuer stored voice announcer sounds like an "Eaton's catalogue sales lady", if that means anything.

"How can I help you ma'am?"

The LED display of the next stop is a bit tiny to read from further back in the bus, and is also partly blocked by the aluminum tubes for holding on. In Chicago they place the LED sign in the front cabinet of the bus itself, not on the inside roof like ours.

And the air conditioner unit could have been designed a bit better in that the fan is just at the back, so if you sit at that location it'll feel like you are standing in a refrigerator, and it warms up as you sit closer to the front.

[1ajs]

the ac design problem is a newflyer flaw i would take the complaint to them...

[Only The Lonely..]

I originally posted this in the Bomber thread because of speculation that a rapid transit line out to the new stadium may be a possibility.

For the benefit of discussion here..

LRT is the future: mayor

In other transit news, Mayor Sam Katz now says he does not expect to make an announcement about Winnipeg's new rapid transit system until September, when city councillors go back to work.

Ever since March, when Ottawa announced it would hand Manitoba $17.9 million for alternative transportation, the city and province have been working on a deal to build southwest Winnipeg bus rapid transit corridor and lay the groundwork for a future light-rail system.

On Wednesday, the mayor said officials are still studying the issue carefully considering the potential "half a billion-dollar" cost of the project in the long term.

"We're not planning for today. We're planning for 10, 20 and 30 years down the road," said Katz, who is a fan of light-rail transit even though city officials have called it cost-prohibitive.

"LRT is the future. If you and I want our children and grandchildren to stay in Winnipeg, you have to look at it. Otherwise, you're making a big mistake."

bartley.kives@freepress.mb.ca joe.paraskevas@freepress.mb.ca

[Greco Roman]

Originally Posted by Only The Lonely..

I originally posted this in the Bomber thread because of speculation that a rapid transit line out to the new stadium may be a possibility.

For the benefit of discussion here..

LRT is the future: mayor

In other transit news, Mayor Sam Katz now says he does not expect to make an announcement about Winnipeg's new rapid transit system until September, when city councillors go back to work.

Ever since March, when Ottawa announced it would hand Manitoba $17.9 million for alternative transportation, the city and province have been working on a deal to build southwest Winnipeg bus rapid transit corridor and lay the groundwork for a future light-rail system.

On Wednesday, the mayor said officials are still studying the issue carefully considering the potential "half a billion-dollar" cost of the project in the long term.

"We're not planning for today. We're planning for 10, 20 and 30 years down the road," said Katz, who is a fan of light-rail transit even though city officials have called it cost-prohibitive.

"LRT is the future. If you and I want our children and grandchildren to stay in Winnipeg, you have to look at it. Otherwise, you're making a big mistake."

bartley.kives@freepress.mb.ca joe.paraskevas@freepress.mb.ca

Before I get too excited (even though I already am), I wonder if this statement might imply "lets get BRT in here now so that we can plan for an LRT system 50 years down the road".

[Spocket]

Actually, if you read carefully, what he's saying is that "in 10 , or 20 , or 30 years we might have an announcement to make". This is like a game of Where's Waldo. Can you find the announcement date ? Get out your magnifying glasses kids ...it's got to be on the calendar somewhere !