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  #41  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2008, 5:26 PM
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Originally Posted by STLtoSA View Post
For one I was referring to the central city not San Antonio as a whole, as the thread was centered around a downtown bookstore.

I could sit here and argue what things about Greater San Antonio bother me, but that is for a different thread.

The real question you have to ask is...what sort of downtown do you want? I here people all the time say that San Antonio needs taller building (at least something over 500'), but you have to ask yourself why would anyone build a 500'+ building in downtown San Antonio. There is hardly a corporate presence in downtown. Other than Frost, AT&T, CoSA, CPS, and Bexar County, there are not many major employers other than Tourism Downtown.

Everyone is so exited about the Vidorra and the Hyatt, for good reason, its so nice to see something new in the skyline. I for one would like to see some more residential for the young professional, something that is reasonable. I believe That Downtown needs an apartment market, not just condos.

I like the Vistanna developement alot, eventhough it is a little more expensive. The San Pedro Creek District (where the Vistanna is) is a key area. UTSA wants to expand there downtown campus including housing/apartments. There is a lot of other developement planned and proposed in this area including: Federal Courthouse, Bexar County 10-story office building, Police Headquarters, and W Commerce street redevelopment. This should be a busy area for the next 5-10 years.

Hopefully River North will spawn a more mixed residential neighborhood developement, but the verdict is still out on that.

I just realized that I am ranting like crazy, so I will stop.

Downtown is not the epitomy of a successfull downtown of a major city. It is tourism and local government dominated, but needs more private businesses and housing.

How you view San Antonio's Downtown or the city as a whole depends on your perspective.
HEB is downtown.

SA DT is more of a place you visit, either from out of town or from the suburbs. As a consequence, there's less office and residential and more restaurants, bars, night clubs and entertainment type things. It's a place you hang out.
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  #42  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2008, 8:04 PM
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San Antonio has 5 million square feet of office space downtown, so the worktime population that doesn't work in the service or tourism industry is very VERY tiny.

To put it into perspective, Bellevue, Washington has 6 million square feet of office space downtown and employs 35k. Seattle, Washington has 28 million square feet of office space and employs around 250k (office space will hit 30 million square feet in mid-2010). Austin has 8 million square feet of office space downtown and employs 90,000.

Downtown is one big historic district and it sucks for that. There needs to be more to do on the street level, more to do on the edges of downtown and more to do in the center.
More office space or employees doesn't equal a better downtown. Many cities with big downtown employee populations are Ghost towns after 5 p.m.
Houston and Dallas have more downtown office space, obviously doesn't equal a better downtown in general.
Houston and Seattle have about the same downtown employee population, 150 K range, as far as Houston is concerned, it's downtown is improving, but, has more room for improvement, than Seattle or the other big Texas cities. Seattle pretty much has a well rounded downtown.

San Antonio's downtown may be the most historic of the bunch in Texas, but, has much more activity than any other Texas city. Hardberger seems to be doing a great job, many projects planned or underway. Hemisfair, River North, Pearl, Musuem Reach, Main plaza. Sorry, a historic downtown with many parks, plazas, and a urban waterway running through it, far from sucks. I would put San Antonio's downtown one of the top 15 in the U.S. and first in Texas. Followed by Austin, Ft.Worth, Dallas, Houston.

Downtown Employee populations

http://www.demographia.com/db-cbd2000.pdf
Seattle 155k
Houston 154k
Austin 86k the capitol
Dallas 79K
San Antonio 55k
Charlotte 52k
Kansas City 46K
Phoenix 26k
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2020 S. A. Pop 1.59 million/ Metro 2.64 million/ASA corridor 5 million Census undercount city proper. San Antonio economy and largest economic sectors. Annual contribution towards GDP. U.S. DOD$48.5billion/Manufacturing $40.5 billion/Healthcare-Biosciences $40 billion/Finance-Insurance $20 billion/Tourism $15 billion/ Technology $10 billion. S.A./ Austin: Tech $25 billion/Manufacturing $11 billion/ Tourism $9 billion.

Last edited by Paul in S.A TX; Sep 12, 2008 at 8:16 PM.
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  #43  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2008, 8:08 PM
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oops double post.
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  #44  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2008, 8:31 PM
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With the exception of the riverwalk and parts around the mall, downtown San Antonio is a ghost town after 5pm.

I'm still trying to wrap my brain around the figures from demographia for both Seattle and Houston-- they're strict to the point of going against the city's own definitions (and in the case of Seattle, my own experience) and skewing figures for middle range cities.
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  #45  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2008, 11:06 PM
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Arguing with Paul is like arguing with a stop sign. You will not get anywhere with him.
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  #46  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2008, 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by alexjon View Post
With the exception of the riverwalk and parts around the mall, downtown San Antonio is a ghost town after 5pm.

I'm still trying to wrap my brain around the figures from demographia for both Seattle and Houston-- they're strict to the point of going against the city's own definitions (and in the case of Seattle, my own experience) and skewing figures for middle range cities.
I'd just quit while I was ahead when it comes to Paul.
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  #47  
Old Posted Sep 14, 2008, 4:54 AM
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2020 S. A. Pop 1.59 million/ Metro 2.64 million/ASA corridor 5 million Census undercount city proper. San Antonio economy and largest economic sectors. Annual contribution towards GDP. U.S. DOD$48.5billion/Manufacturing $40.5 billion/Healthcare-Biosciences $40 billion/Finance-Insurance $20 billion/Tourism $15 billion/ Technology $10 billion. S.A./ Austin: Tech $25 billion/Manufacturing $11 billion/ Tourism $9 billion.
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  #48  
Old Posted Sep 14, 2008, 1:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Paul in S.A TX View Post
Downtown Employee populations

http://www.demographia.com/db-cbd2000.pdf
Seattle 155k
Houston 154k
Austin 86k the capitol
Dallas 79K
San Antonio 55k
Charlotte 52k
Kansas City 46K
Phoenix 26k
I don't know what definition of "downtown" you used to get these numbers, but I can promise you that more people work in downtown KC than downtown SA. DT KC has (off the top of my head) H&R Block, Hallmark Cards, Andrews and McNeel Publishing, Black & Veatch Engineering, AMC Theaters, a huge Federal Courthouse, a Federal Reserve Bank, a huge IRS building, and enough retail to serve 17,000 downtown residents. The only area that SA would beat it in is number of hotel service workers.

Pretty skeptical about those Charlotte numbers, too, when you think about the number of people employed just by Bank of America and Wachovia.

Its ok to occasionally admit that SA is deficient in a few areas compared to other cities. I promise the world won't end
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  #49  
Old Posted Sep 14, 2008, 2:54 PM
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Originally Posted by oldmanshirt View Post
I don't know what definition of "downtown" you used to get these numbers, but I can promise you that more people work in downtown KC than downtown SA. DT KC has (off the top of my head) H&R Block, Hallmark Cards, Andrews and McNeel Publishing, Black & Veatch Engineering, AMC Theaters, a huge Federal Courthouse, a Federal Reserve Bank, a huge IRS building, and enough retail to serve 17,000 downtown residents. The only area that SA would beat it in is number of hotel service workers.

Pretty skeptical about those Charlotte numbers, too, when you think about the number of people employed just by Bank of America and Wachovia.

Its ok to occasionally admit that SA is deficient in a few areas compared to other cities. I promise the world won't end
He used Demographia's numbers, which are painfully strict and pushed by Wendell Cox who believes that downtowns are isolated things and should be isolated. For example, downtown Seattle has 231,532 people working in what counts as Downtown.
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  #50  
Old Posted Sep 14, 2008, 3:31 PM
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Its ok to occasionally admit that SA is deficient in a few areas compared to other cities. I promise the world won't end
Self-awareness is scary.
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  #51  
Old Posted Sep 14, 2008, 4:10 PM
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Originally Posted by oldmanshirt View Post
I don't know what definition of "downtown" you used to get these numbers, but I can promise you that more people work in downtown KC than downtown SA. DT KC has (off the top of my head) H&R Block, Hallmark Cards, Andrews and McNeel Publishing, Black & Veatch Engineering, AMC Theaters, a huge Federal Courthouse, a Federal Reserve Bank, a huge IRS building, and enough retail to serve 17,000 downtown residents. The only area that SA would beat it in is number of hotel service workers.

Pretty skeptical about those Charlotte numbers, too, when you think about the number of people employed just by Bank of America and Wachovia.

Its ok to occasionally admit that SA is deficient in a few areas compared to other cities. I promise the world won't end
Buds, I don't make up these stats, argue with them.

Anyhow, San Antonio may have a abundance of small companies etc as well, which quickly brings up the total. Remember San Antonio has 5 major hospitals, several high schools, a university, etc, downtown. It is not all service, stop fooling yourselves. I will look into what employeers are downtown, and go on more than assumptions, which seems to be the norm around here.
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2020 S. A. Pop 1.59 million/ Metro 2.64 million/ASA corridor 5 million Census undercount city proper. San Antonio economy and largest economic sectors. Annual contribution towards GDP. U.S. DOD$48.5billion/Manufacturing $40.5 billion/Healthcare-Biosciences $40 billion/Finance-Insurance $20 billion/Tourism $15 billion/ Technology $10 billion. S.A./ Austin: Tech $25 billion/Manufacturing $11 billion/ Tourism $9 billion.
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  #52  
Old Posted Sep 14, 2008, 4:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Paul in S.A TX View Post
Buds, I don't make up these stats, argue with them.
No, Wendell Cox makes them up.
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  #53  
Old Posted Sep 14, 2008, 6:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Paul in S.A TX View Post
Buds, I don't make up these stats, argue with them.

Anyhow, San Antonio may have a abundance of small companies etc as well, which quickly brings up the total. Remember San Antonio has 5 major hospitals, several high schools, a university, etc, downtown. It is not all service, stop fooling yourselves. I will look into what employeers are downtown, and go on more than assumptions, which seems to be the norm around here.
Kansas City also has "Hospital Hill" downtown, which may not be quite the equivalent of STMC, but is certainly larger than SA's existing downtown medical facilities, arguably none of which can be considered "major hospitals".

Nobody's making assumptions here. I have no inherent reason to think KC is better than SA. I'm from SA and have spent half my life there, while I've lived in KC less than a year. Making an assumption is starting from a preconceived notion and then looking for facts to back it up. You honestly think other cities don't have small businesses, hospitals, high schools, and universities downtown? It seems that you are assuming those things are unique to SA, when you know they're not if you've been to even a handful of other cities SA's size.
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  #54  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2008, 12:18 AM
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I'm not assuming anything on any other city, just claiming what is in San Antonio.
I would think, The Baptist, Santa Rosa, Nix, Methodist are major hospitals. San Antonio probably edges out K.C. becasue of the huge convention industry in downtown S.A.
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  #55  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2008, 2:32 AM
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San Antonio probably edges out K.C. becasue of the huge convention industry in downtown S.A.
That is indeed the big Achilles heel of KC's downtown. Major conventions have been moving to other cities because there aren't enough hotel rooms within walking distance of the convention center. City leaders would kill for a Grand Hyatt like SA's, but nobody knows how to pay for it. There's also no major tourist draw in downtown KC other than Union Station and the WWI memorial (which are more regional than national attractions), so there isn't enough demand to fill all those rooms when conventions aren't in town.

Other than that, however, KC's downtown is superior to SA's in every quantifiable sense.
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  #56  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2008, 2:34 AM
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I've never seen a high school in downtown San Antonio. What is the address, what school? I also can't think of any high schools, or any other grade school within downtown Austin's borders either. And I can't think of a university either within downtown Austin. UT is technically north of downtown, and no others are located within that official boundary. There are a few private schools downtown that are affiliated with some churches, but no public schools that I know of.

The only major hospital centers I can think of in San Antonio, other than just normal hospitals you'd expect to find in any major city, would be the South Texas Medical Center and Brooks Army Medical Center which serves not just South Texas, but even Central Texas. If you get burned up in an accident in South or Central Texas, chances are you'll be on your way there in a helicopter for treatment. But that's about it, I can't think of anything else that would bring in patients from outside of San Antonio and South Texas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul in S.A
San Antonio probably edges out K.C. becasue of the huge convention industry in downtown S.A.
San Antonio probably edges out KC because of the Mexican food too. At least that's my opinion.
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  #57  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2008, 4:22 AM
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That is indeed the big Achilles heel of KC's downtown. Major conventions have been moving to other cities because there aren't enough hotel rooms within walking distance of the convention center. City leaders would kill for a Grand Hyatt like SA's, but nobody knows how to pay for it. There's also no major tourist draw in downtown KC other than Union Station and the WWI memorial (which are more regional than national attractions), so there isn't enough demand to fill all those rooms when conventions aren't in town.

Other than that, however, KC's downtown is superior to SA's in every quantifiable sense.
I doubt that, seriously! Does downtown K.C have five restored Vaudeville Atmospheric theatres, a phlethora of cutural venues, plazas, parks, historic districts and historical landmarks? Does downtown K.C. have all the dinning, shopping, that San Antonio has? Does it have a famous history, like San Antonio's?
Downtown San Antonio as a whole is what draws millions upon millions to Downtown. It's not just a Convention center and thousands of hotel rooms.

K.C. has nice architecture and a nice skyline, but, I wouldn't say it us superior to San Antonio's in any fashion.
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  #58  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2008, 4:45 AM
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I've never seen a high school in downtown San Antonio. What is the address, what school? I also can't think of any high schools, or any other grade school within downtown Austin's borders either. And I can't think of a university either within downtown Austin. UT is technically north of downtown, and no others are located within that official boundary. There are a few private schools downtown that are affiliated with some churches, but no public schools that I know of.
Fox Tech of SAISD is there and so are Central Catholic HS and Providence HS.
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  #59  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2008, 4:52 AM
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  #60  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2008, 5:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Paul in S.A TX View Post
I doubt that, seriously! Does downtown K.C have five restored Vaudeville Atmospheric theatres, a phlethora of cutural venues, plazas, parks, historic districts and historical landmarks? Does downtown K.C. have all the dinning, shopping, that San Antonio has? Does it have a famous history, like San Antonio's?
Downtown San Antonio as a whole is what draws millions upon millions to Downtown. It's not just a Convention center and thousands of hotel rooms.

K.C. has nice architecture and a nice skyline, but, I wouldn't say it us superior to San Antonio's in any fashion.
Funny, you just mentioned two ways in which it is superior, though I wouldn't say KC's architecture is "better", as its so different it isn't really worth comparing. If I put the Tower Life Building up against the Power and Light Building, I go nuts trying to pick a favorite.

Also, you'll notice I said "quantifiable measure", by which I'm talking number of downtown residents, the median income of those residents, amount of downtown office space, number of upscale shopping venues, etc. This is to say nothing of the fact that billions of dollars has been pumped into downtown KC the past few years in the construction of a new arena, entertainment complex, loft conversions, a brand-new Performing Arts Center under construction, and other redevelopments.

While SA's downtown is certainly "historic", the value, and thus the appeal, of that is in the eye of the beholder, and not something that can be quantifiably measured. It interests me because I'm from SA and TX and enjoy learning about their history, but if I weren't from there most of the historic stuff would frankly bore me to tears.

You're right about one thing, though. DT SA is not just a convention center and thousands of hotel rooms. Its that, plus the Alamo and the Riverwalk


btw, you said SA has a "plethora" of parks downtown. I just would like to know if you know what a plethora is. I would not like to think that person would tell someone he has a plethora, and then find out that that person has no idea what it means to have a plethora.
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