Western Expresso

[djforsberg]

Originally Posted by 1ajs

if u guys ever looked at the cost of stuff in canada vs the states even from province to province u would start to see some other issues besides wages for government.

lets see steel pipe made in edmonton is cheaper to buy in detroit then it is in canada so u see allot of it going to the states then shiped back...

windows made here in manitoba.

i need to buy 10 windows i priced it out from the factory custom sizes 18k.
got quote from mynards in grandforks for the same exac twindows from the same factory 5k cdn u see this over and over and over with stuff here in canada...........

And yet Canada consistently ranks higher than the US in terms of happiness, economic equality and health. Heck, the “American dream” is more achievable in Canada than the US, by all measures. Countries with a higher cost of living tend to have a higher standard of living. Taxes and just about everything else is higher in the Scandinavian countries yet those are even ranked higher than Canada in happiness, quality of life and health.

[djforsberg]

Originally Posted by esquire

The elimination of so many working class union jobs has hit way harder than the tax burden.

At one time there were many good, stable, unionized working class jobs in the private sector. But governments kowtowed to the robber baron Peter Pocklington types who would rather shut a plant down to show the workers who's boss than come to the table and maybe make a compromise or two.

I'm not sure that aggressively cracking down on public sector workers the same way that the private sector did is really a recipe for middle class happiness. Two wrongs don't make a right.

How quick people are to ignore history or examples just to the south of us.

[CoryB]

Just throwing it out there that it isn't unions out there exploiting workers and trying to force people to accept working conditions paying below minimum wage while the execs in the fancy offices skim 30% off the top.

[drew]

Unions or no unions - the current compensation levels that are the Fire, Paramedic and Police receive in Winnipeg are not sustainable - and wholly out of whack with comparable salaries for professionals (Engineers (like me), teachers, etc.).

[esquire]

Originally Posted by CoryB

Just throwing it out there that it isn't unions out there exploiting workers and trying to force people to accept working conditions paying below minimum wage while the execs in the fancy offices skim 30% off the top.

Exactly this. You have companies like Amazon where workers pee in bottles, or other Sears paying out tens of millions of dollars to C-suite executives while workers lose their jobs, but it's the frigging $50,000 a year union worker who is the problem? Give me a break.

The Fox News crowd has somehow convinced the working classes down south that it's the latter that is their enemy and that they need to vote Republican.

Originally Posted by drew

Unions or no unions - the current compensation levels that are the Fire, Paramedic and Police receive in Winnipeg are not sustainable - and wholly out of whack with comparable salaries for professionals (Engineers (like me), teachers, etc.).

Agreed. Emergency services are an exception, though, and the problems can be solved without throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[drew]

Maybe its changed, but being a firefighter, police officer or paramedic was never historically an "upper middle class" career, at least not until you got up the "ranks".

I still don't think it should be. My wife makes a good 20% less as a teacher with almost 20 years of experience - than a police officer after 5 years.

For me, it's only in the last 5 years or so that my salary is comparable to a police officer - despite the fact I am a licensed professional, with a masters degree.

Obviously this is a bit of sour grapes - but of all the cops I know, they all stumbled around from one job to the next before basically giving up and applying to the WPS.

[esquire]

No question being a cop or a firefighter is an important, hard and necessary job and I have no problem with people being well paid to do it. But it does seem that the pay, pension and benefits packet is out of line with the labour market in general and should probably be adjusted accordingly.

(Funny that you mention the phenomenon of people stumbling into WPS jobs because that is my experience too... but I have noticed being a cop seems to eat away at your soul. The guys I know have changed profoundly in the 10 or so years that they've been cops.)

[Tacheguy]

The so called big city mayors should get together and do something useful for a change, such as developing policy guidelines for emergency services remuneration. This would be non binding but would provide political cover for individual mayors.
RCMP make considerably less than urban cops (after the first few years of their careers) and face tougher conditions for the most part. Try moving your family to Norway house.
To his credit Harper included the mounties in his three year public sector wage freeze when first elected. The province would have to step up here as they control the legislation around binding arbitration which is one of the key problems.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by esquire

No question being a cop or a firefighter is an important, hard and necessary job and I have no problem with people being well paid to do it. But it does seem that the pay, pension and benefits packet is out of line with the labour market in general and should probably be adjusted accordingly.

(Funny that you mention the phenomenon of people stumbling into WPS jobs because that is my experience too... but I have noticed being a cop seems to eat away at your soul. The guys I know have changed profoundly in the 10 or so years that they've been cops.)

Not surprising when it seems that 90% of your interaction with the general public is when they are in trouble or causing trouble. I cannot see where years on the beat seeing the worst in people would not make a cop uber cynical. But what is the solution? A limited time on the beat then off to something else?

Another thing is the downloading of people with severe social/drug/behaviour issues to the street for cops/firefighter/EMS to deal with. No wonder cops and EMS folks have a high suicide rate.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by drew

I still don't think it should be. My wife makes a good 20% less as a teacher with almost 20 years of experience - than a police officer after 5 years.

My dad worked as a teacher in the inflation years of the late 70s/early 80s. Been told the story many times what happened. Before that era teachers were making a little more than emergency services. The teachers contract came up first and they settled on what felt reasonable at the time. Then there was a major inflation spike. Finally the emergency services contracts came up and salaries were settled based on the post-inflation spike economy.

That is how emergency service seemingly got ahead of teachers in terms of salary.

Another contract I know about had salary from computer programmers and similar. It was decided to create a very similar but separate classification for business analysts. In non-union environments both roles would get similar compensation. When the salary survey for the new classification came back it prices in the 2% general salary increase. Problem is that increase didn't actually happen and instead was a 0% in the contract created a salary divide between the two roles.

[DirtWednesday]

Notre Dame... I'm numb.
I'm not religious in the slightest. To me, Notre Dame is a crowning achievement in engineering and an architectural masterpiece. She was a beautiful lady. It's a sad day...

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by djforsberg

And yet Canada consistently ranks higher than the US in terms of happiness, economic equality and health. Heck, the “American dream” is more achievable in Canada than the US, by all measures. Countries with a higher cost of living tend to have a higher standard of living. Taxes and just about everything else is higher in the Scandinavian countries yet those are even ranked higher than Canada in happiness, quality of life and health.

Ranked higher by whom, the United Nations?

[Curmudgeon]

A government will be unable to maintain law and order in the implementation of unpopular public policies if the police identify as members of the working class.

[Tacheguy]

Originally Posted by DirtWednesday

Notre Dame... I'm numb.
I'm not religious in the slightest. To me, Notre Dame is a crowning achievement in engineering and an architectural masterpiece. She was a beautiful lady. It's a sad day...

I was just there in October. Brings a tear to my eye.

[Crisis]

I was at Notre Dame about a decade ago, while chaperoning a high school trip to France and it was definitely one of the highlights of the trip. Would be a shame to see it all gone - hope the FD can keeping the fire from taking out the bell towers, too.

I think the interior of the cathedral will be a complete loss. At least if the exterior walls stay standing, there may be something to work from for a re-build. Amazing that it has stood all of these centuries, through wars & all kinds of unrest, yet it's taken down by a fire in the 21st century.

[bomberjet]

The stone should remain. They'll rebuild and hopefully remain standing for centuries to come.

[djforsberg]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Ranked higher by whom, the United Nations?

Multiple sources. I have been observing these data for years.

Its funny you criticize the UN implying that due to its faults (which I am sure I could agree with some of them), NONE of its information can be reliable. I am willing to bet you get your news from Fox News, or the like, and despite these far-right sources being filled with factually incorrect information, it remains untarnished to you. Typical hypocrisy from the right.

[Stormer]

Originally Posted by drew

Maybe its changed, but being a firefighter, police officer or paramedic was never historically an "upper middle class" career, at least not until you got up the "ranks".

I still don't think it should be. My wife makes a good 20% less as a teacher with almost 20 years of experience - than a police officer after 5 years.

For me, it's only in the last 5 years or so that my salary is comparable to a police officer - despite the fact I am a licensed professional, with a masters degree.

Obviously this is a bit of sour grapes - but of all the cops I know, they all stumbled around from one job to the next before basically giving up and applying to the WPS.

Teaching is extremely important and requires more education and skill than being a first responder, but we have no shortage of qualified teaching candidates. People love the lifestyle. I have no problem with teachers making less than cops or steel workers in the current reality.

[Curmudgeon]

UN HDI 2018

12th Canada 0.926
13th U.S. 0.924

Man. 0.894 = South Carolina or Slovenia, #25
Sask. 0.908 = North Carolina or Austria, #20

Minn. 0.950 = #1 Norway
N. Dak. 0.948 = above #2 Switzerland
S. Dak. 0.931 = Alberta or #10 Netherlands
Mont. 0.923

The regional numbers are concerning to me, and it is obvious when you visit those states. No midwestern state is lower than Sask. What's really troubling too is that Canada has slipped from 1st to 12th in less than two decades. I guess smugness and sanctimoniousness are the best ways to address that.

24 U.S. states have a HDI above 0.930 compared with 2 provinces, Alberta and Ontario and they are only just above that line. 12 U.S. states are at 0.940 or above, which puts them on par with #2 Switzerland and #1 Norway. Australia at 0.939 is #3, that hurts as much as when the Bombers lose to the banjo pickin' inbreds. The U.S. average is weighed down by a handful of poor southern states in a country that does not have an equalization formula like Canada.

[OTA in Winnipeg]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

UN HDI 2018

12th Canada 0.926
13th U.S. 0.924

Man. 0.894 = South Carolina or Slovenia, #25
Sask. 0.908 = North Carolina or Austria, #20

Minn. 0.950 = #1 Norway
N. Dak. 0.948 = above #2 Switzerland
S. Dak. 0.931 = Alberta or #10 Netherlands
Mont. 0.923

The regional numbers are concerning to me, and it is obvious when you visit those states. No midwestern state is lower than Sask. What's really troubling too is that Canada has slipped from 1st to 12th in less than two decades. I guess smugness and sanctimoniousness are the best ways to address that.

24 U.S. states have a HDI above 0.930 compared with 2 provinces, Alberta and Ontario and they are only just above that line. 12 U.S. states are at 0.940 or above, which puts them on par with #2 Switzerland and #1 Norway. Australia at 0.939 is #3, that hurts as much as when the Bombers lose to the banjo pickin' inbreds. The U.S. average is weighed down by a handful of poor southern states in a country that does not have an equalization formula like Canada.

Those numbers seem like bullshit to me.