Freeway-Free City - Something Winnipeg can be proud of

[IntotheWest]

Originally Posted by newflyer

Since the Sommerset station was opened Okotoks has grown by over 50%.. Thats nearly 6000 new residents moving into a town, many of whom saw the advantage of driving into Calgary city limites ... parking in a massive sea of suburban lots which substitute for downtown lots .. and ride this "rapid transit" into work. Those C-trains are often full, before they even leave the Sommerset Staion (first station on the south line) Many of those riders are from out of town.... yes the city is now subsidizing people from out of town. It has gotten so bad there was even a suggestion last year of increasing transit pass rates for people living out of town.

You are grasping here, Newflyer. As a resident in Somerset, and moving to Okotoks in a few months, I can assure you - as Boris mentioned - the Deerfoot is far more appealing then the Somerset Station.

As well, three of these "bedroom" communities around Calgary are among the fastest growing in Canada...however, Okotoks is third to Airdrie and Cochrane - two places that have no benefit from C-Train stations. Most who use the Somerset/Bridlewood and Shawnessey stations live close by.

Feepa - $$ billions. It's really no comparison.

I posted numbers above for the cost of the C-train and the ongoing operating costs.

Corndogger - with regards to your comments about parking spaces, which city do you think Calgary should use as a model to provide the "ideal" parking space? Just curious. Please provide an example for comparison.

[IntotheWest]

Originally Posted by newflyer

Since the Sommerset station was opened Okotoks has grown by over 50%.. Thats nearly 6000 new residents moving into a town, many of whom saw the advantage of driving into Calgary city limites ... parking in a massive sea of suburban lots which substitute for downtown lots .. and ride this "rapid transit" into work. Those C-trains are often full, before they even leave the Sommerset Staion (first station on the south line) Many of those riders are from out of town.... yes the city is now subsidizing people from out of town. It has gotten so bad there was even a suggestion last year of increasing transit pass rates for people living out of town.

You are grasping here, Newflyer. As a resident in Somerset, and moving to Okotoks in a few months, I can assure you - as Boris mentioned - the Deerfoot is far more appealing then the Somerset Station.

As well, three of these "bedroom" communities around Calgary are among the fastest growing in Canada...however, Okotoks is third to Airdrie and Cochrane - two places that have no benefit from C-Train stations. Most who use the Somerset/Bridlewood and Shawnessey stations live close by. In fact, out of those three towns, Okotoks is the only one not part of the Calgary CMA...which, according to the census is because a good chunk of residents don't commute on a daily basis.

Feepa - $$ billions. It's really no comparison.

I posted numbers above for the cost of the C-train and the ongoing operating costs.

Corndogger - with regards to your comments about parking spaces, which city do you think Calgary should use as a model to provide the "ideal" parking space? Just curious. Please provide an example for comparison.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by feepa

ok, but can we start including the cost of the road in your calculation for using cars? How much money a year do we spend on building and maintaining roadways?

No where near enough is the correct answer. The province and feds collect about $400 million per year in gas taxes from Calgary alone. We all know that $400 million is not spent on roads in Calgary each year. Not even close because the feds put next to nothing back into roads. A few years ago the feds were collecting over $5 billion/yr. in gas taxes and I believe it was well under 10% (probably 5%) that was going back into maintaining highways and building new ones. And most of what they were putting back into the system was being spent east of Ontario.

[1ajs]

looking at things we need some major infestructure upgrades no?.......

some elivated highway and lrt underneeth the elivated highway creating transit coridoors?

[newflyer]

Originally Posted by IntotheWest

You are grasping here, Newflyer. As a resident in Somerset, and moving to Okotoks in a few months, I can assure you - as Boris mentioned - the Deerfoot is far more appealing then the Somerset Station.


.

First off .. I am in no way am defending the Deerfoot .. it is in no means a saint .. and has a long list of problems.. including incouraging sprawl.

With that said .. I am a daily user of Calgary transit.. and I can more than assure you that this station, which is furthiest from the city centre of all the c-train lines has more than encourged sprawl to the outskirts. The train is commonly full before it leaves the Sommerset station during morning commute between 6:30 and 8:30am. Since you have admitted you are only a lowly car commuter .. I can assure you this is the case.

This is far from reaching .. and if you disbelieve me .. and articles in the local press .. and the real life experience of riding transit .. perhaps you should contact Calgary transit themselves.. I am sure they publish ridership numbers, or maybe if you had family and friends living in Okotoks you'd be very well versed on commuting patterns of this bedroom community.

So perhaps before you try to undermine my aurguement by making empty counter statements.. you best look into how this fact is effecting people's living choices.

As far as Airdrie goes.. I can assure you it would be even more popular if it were closer to rapid transit... but have to fear as there will be new stations on the NE line opening in the future... with massive parking lots to hold those commuters. I guess the up side is the Deerfoot will be a little easier to use. ..

[newflyer]

Originally Posted by 1ajs

looking at things we need some major infestructure upgrades no?.......

some elivated highway and lrt underneeth the elivated highway creating transit coridoors?

Yes... thats sounds exactly what will become reality .. it just might take us a few decades.

[Boris2k7]

Originally Posted by newflyer

First off .. I am in no way am defending the Deerfoot .. it is in no means a saint .. and has a long list of problems.. including incouraging sprawl.

With that said .. I am a daily user of Calgary transit.. and I can more than assure you that this station, which is furthiest from the city centre of all the c-train lines has more than encourged sprawl to the outskirts. The train is commonly full before it leaves the Sommerset station during morning commute between 6:30 and 8:30am. Since you have admitted you are only a lowly car commuter .. I can assure you this is the case.

No, you can't. I live my entire life around transit, read studies and make reports on this, and have had more than enough lectures with planning experts. The CTrain being full at Somerset (which it isn't, the seats are usually gone but that's it) has nothing to do with Okotoks.

This is far from reaching .. and if you disbelieve me .. and articles in the local press .. and the real life experience of riding transit .. perhaps you should contact Calgary transit themselves.. I am sure they publish ridership numbers, or maybe if you had family and friends living in Okotoks you'd be very well versed on commuting patterns of this bedroom community.

Yeah, sure. So you are basing your deductions off of studies and publications that don't exist? In spite of all logic and common planning discourse?

So perhaps before you try to undermine my aurguement by making empty counter statements.. you best look into how this fact is effecting people's living choices.

There's nothing to debate here. The planning world already knows full well how rapid transit effects people's living choices. We've only been studying it for 50 years.

As far as Airdrie goes.. I can assure you it would be even more popular if it were closer to rapid transit... but have to fear as there will be new stations on the NE line opening in the future... with massive parking lots to hold those commuters. I guess the up side is the Deerfoot will be a little easier to use. ..

Again, why would people from Airdrie drive in and use the LRT the rest of the way, when it would be faster for them to use Deerfoot? Especially when there are only going to be about 800 Park n' Ride stalls at McKnight-Westwinds (which will be similar to other stations) in close proximity to Calgary communities with thousands of people. If you can prove where all these people are going to park, you get the "Genius of the Day" sticker.

[newflyer]

Originally Posted by Boris2k7

No, you can't. I live my entire life around transit, read studies and make reports on this, and have had more than enough lectures with planning experts. The CTrain being full at Somerset (which it isn't, the seats are usually gone but that's it) has nothing to do with Okotoks.



Yeah, sure. So you are basing your deductions off of studies and publications that don't exist? In spite of all logic and common planning discourse?



There's nothing to debate here. The planning world already knows full well how rapid transit effects people's living choices. We've only been studying it for 50 years.



Again, why would people from Airdrie drive in and use the LRT the rest of the way, when it would be faster for them to use Deerfoot? Especially when there are only going to be about 800 Park n' Ride stalls at McKnight-Westwinds (which will be similar to other stations) in close proximity to Calgary communities with thousands of people. If you can prove where all these people are going to park, you get the "Genius of the Day" sticker.

Sorry if the truth gets in the of your university theories. ... but the facts speak for themselves. The city of Calgary has even studied charging out of town commutters more for transit passes. This have been an identified problem.

As far as hose Airdrie commutters who would consider using the c-train instead of the Deerfoot all the way into downtown, its not difficult to understand. It really comes down to money. Downtown monthly parking pass $375.... Transit pass $75.
Trust me there are many people in Airdrie who would be willing to save $300/ month if it were somehat convenient. The closer those LRT lines get the more convenient it gets.

There are massive parking lots around the suburban LRT stations. Infact Anderson station has nearly the same parking as South Centre Mall... WTF!! Canyon Meadows has it own multilevel parking structure... Sommerset has its own sea of parking. People drive to these stations and ride the trains into downtown to save money.. which is fine, but the further out you build the lines the more people from out of town utilize those stations. One of the reason people live in Airdrie is to save a little money, so to suggest they could save another handful using transit wouldn't be a difficult sell.


It is too bad to don't realize the economic factors which play a part in peoples desisions... but it does play a big part. Although it is amusing how you put such blind faith in others ideas... but are completely put off by any counter aurguement. Oh well.. as you said there is really nothing to debate. It wouldn't be the first time I've earned genius of the day.

[Boris2k7]

Sorry if the truth gets in the of your university theories. ... but the facts speak for themselves. The city of Calgary has even studied charging out of town commutters more for transit passes. This have been an identified problem.

You think they studied that? What the hell? That was a hairbrained scheme by Ric McIver. Nice try though!

As far as hose Airdrie commutters who would consider using the c-train instead of the Deerfoot all the way into downtown, its not difficult to understand. It really comes down to money. Downtown monthly parking pass $375.... Transit pass $75.
Trust me there are many people in Airdrie who would be willing to save $300/ month if it were somehat convenient. The closer those LRT lines get the more convenient it gets.

There are massive parking lots around the suburban LRT stations. Infact Anderson station has nearly the same parking as South Centre Mall... WTF!! Canyon Meadows has it own multilevel parking structure... Sommerset has its own sea of parking. People drive to these stations and ride the trains into downtown to save money.. which is fine, but the further out you build the lines the more people from out of town utilize those stations. One of the reason people live in Airdrie is to save a little money, so to suggest they could save another handful using transit wouldn't be a difficult sell.

It is too bad to don't realize the economic factors which play a part in peoples desisions... but it does play a big part. Although it is amusing how you put such blind faith in others ideas... but are completely put off by any counter aurguement. Oh well.. as you said there is really nothing to debate. It wouldn't be the first time I've earned genius of the day.

You have yet to explain where all these commuters magically park, given that there is, AGAIN, very little parking per station per thousands, even tens of thousands of passengers. They sure aren't taking the bus. Of the 30,000 people who live in Airdrie, not even a couple hundred would be able to park at any of the northeast stations. Same goes for Okotoks, Cochrane, wherever.

You must either be totally oblivious to the numbers or are ignoring them. Canyon Meadows has 260 stalls but 5800 customers. Anderson has 1 750 stalls but 11 300 customers. Whitehorn has 824 stalls but 17 400 customers. There clearly aren't enough stalls for all of the ridership, yet you are stating that these stations are spreading sprawl and drawing in mass numbers of customers from bedroom communities? Hello?

BTW, Economics is only one small part of the whole equation. Without consideration to political, social and cultural concerns, as well as the environment, it is totally worthless. Changes in the economy necessitate social, political, and environmental changes. Social changes necessitate political, economic, and environmental changes. Conflicts in any one of these areas bring about conflicts in other areas. For Winnipeg to bring it's downtown business back, it necessitates tension with the suburban economy, and the politics and society that go with that. If Winnipeg had freeways right now, it is very likely that downtown would be in a much worse state than it is in, and the city would be much more sprawling (it'd be growing, like Calgary, but at a high cost).

[feepa]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

No where near enough is the correct answer. The province and feds collect about $400 million per year in gas taxes from Calgary alone. We all know that $400 million is not spent on roads in Calgary each year. Not even close because the feds put next to nothing back into roads. A few years ago the feds were collecting over $5 billion/yr. in gas taxes and I believe it was well under 10% (probably 5%) that was going back into maintaining highways and building new ones. And most of what they were putting back into the system was being spent east of Ontario.

[h0twired]

What many people are forgetting about Calgary is that sprawl isn't always caused by the LRT or Deerfoot Trail.

Consider for a moment that houses are just simply cheaper when you get further from the core.

[newflyer]

Originally Posted by h0twired

What many people are forgetting about Calgary is that sprawl isn't always caused by the LRT or Deerfoot Trail.

Consider for a moment that houses are just simply cheaper when you get further from the core.

Yes ... that is definatley a contributing factor.

[newflyer]

I am not saying LRT is the sole cause .. but what I am saying is the further these lines get the more out of town commuters they attract.

Airdrie is still not convieniently served yet by LRT .. so they are still religated to roadways (Hwy 2) .. and commuter bus service.

I would much rather see the portion city get the majority of LRT expansion.... don't serve the outter communities with rapid transit. This is just another example of how poor city planning is enabling sprawl.

[newflyer]

Anyways .. this is suppose to be a Winnipeg thread .. not the why Calgary is sprawling thread.

There are many factors ... and hopefylly we can at least agree on that.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by feepa

I'll say it again, if my figures are wrong prove it. But they are not as all of them can be verified from various government sources.

[Lee_Haber8]

Originally Posted by 1ajs

looking at things we need some major infestructure upgrades no?.......

some elivated highway and lrt underneeth the elivated highway creating transit coridoors?

No, the areas around the stations would be hell. Remember the first goal of planning is to plan for pedestrians. It happens that you can design neighbourhoods around transit that are friendly for pedestrians. The same cannot be said for ones designed with efficient automobile movement in mind

[1ajs]

Originally Posted by Lee_Haber8

No, the areas around the stations would be hell. Remember the first goal of planning is to plan for pedestrians. It happens that you can design neighbourhoods around transit that are friendly for pedestrians. The same cannot be said for ones designed with efficient automobile movement in mind

true lee but could we not set up the bus system to bring people to these coridoors and move people from them?

[craner]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

The province and feds collect about $400 million per year in gas taxes from Calgary alone. We all know that $400 million is not spent on roads in Calgary each year. Not even close because the feds put next to nothing back into roads. A few years ago the feds were collecting over $5 billion/yr. in gas taxes and I believe it was well under 10% (probably 5%) that was going back into maintaining highways and building new ones. And most of what they were putting back into the system was being spent east of Ontario.

This is accurate - he is correct.

[superduy]

When is winnipeg going to Make a big loop like lagimodier/bishop grandin/chiefpeguis(not done yet) then that one on the west. HAVING NO STOP LIGHTS and a speed of 100 kph.

[rrskylar]

^ Probably a few years before the end of the motoring age!