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  #1981  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2019, 6:58 PM
TR Devlin TR Devlin is offline
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Chicago Public Schools

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Originally Posted by Investing In Chicago View Post

On top of that, where am I going to send my kids for High School? Lakeview High School??? The CPS is a disaster as well, so on top of the property tax increases, families need to prepare for private school as an alternative to High School.
I’ve lived in Chicago for about 45 years. I’ve seen many changes (mostly for the better) and one of the biggest has to do with the number of professional people raising their families in the City. In the 1970’s and 80’s single people in their twenties would move to Chicago. But then when they were in their thirties, they’d be married with a couple kids and when it was time for the kids to start school, they’d move to the suburbs.

Over the years this changed and now more people are deciding to stay and raise their kids in the City. Not everyone, of course, but a lot more than 40 years ago. I think a lot of this has to do with the improvements in the public schools. Today, people pay a premium to live what they think is a good school district (e.g., Bell Elementary). And the top five high schools in the state are all CPS schools.

I have a boy who’s in his twenties now and at one time his goal was to go to Lane Tech. But he couldn’t get in and he ended up going to Gordon Tech (now DePaul College Prep). So it’s been a few years but I remember the family frustration of paying a lot for something that wasn’t our first choice.

And then you’ve got the teacher’s pension bullshit. I HATE the union for not being willing to contribute a nickel to solve that problem. But that’s a separate issue and I still think CPS has greatly improved over the years.

Finally, I know very little about Lakeview HS. When you say “CPS is a disaster” are you talking about all of CPS or just Lakeview?
I’d be interested in your thoughts on any of this.
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  #1982  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2019, 8:41 PM
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Steely Dan Steely Dan is online now
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Originally Posted by Investing In Chicago View Post
I hear you, but the reality is, the majority of families will not consider a condo as their "forever home" where they will raise their kids.
In that case, no top-tier urban US city will work for upper middle class families ($150K - $250K AGI) that demand nothing less than a renovated/new construction move-in ready detached SFH in a trendy urban neighborhood, unless you come from money or get a big fat inheritance or something like that.

The trendy urban neighborhoods in America's alpha level urban cities are simply way too urban to have anywhere near enough detached SFH's to meet the demand, thus they become the exclusive domain of the wealthy.

Only 10% of Lincoln Park's housing units are highly coveted detached SFH's. Hell, even all the way up here in Lincoln Square that percentage only goes up to 15%. So of course there's a huge price premium for such a staunchly limited, extremely desired commodity.

That pattern is repeated in all of the big urban US cities: NYC, Boston, LA, SF, etc. If you ain't rich, then you ain't getting no fancy SFH in a desirable urban neighborhood.

However, IF you can get over the "shame" of living in a multi-unit flat building, then Chicago does have a wealth of good options for larger family-sized units that people in that upper middle class bracket can very much afford.

And yes one of the reasons those kinds of units are so much less expensive than a comparably sized SFH is the fact that a large percentage of upper middle class people with families simply won't accept anything less than a SFH, so off to the burbs they go.

My wife and I almost ended up following them out there until we came to agree that location was more important to us than a SFH. So, Lincoln Square > Skokie, for us. many other families choose differently.

If you're not stinking rich, you're gonna have to make compromises somewhere along the line.
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Dec 8, 2019 at 9:00 PM.
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  #1983  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2019, 9:37 PM
Investing In Chicago Investing In Chicago is offline
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
In that case, no top-tier urban US city will work for upper middle class families ($150K - $250K AGI) that demand nothing less than a renovated/new construction move-in ready detached SFH in a trendy urban neighborhood, unless you come from money or get a big fat inheritance or something like that.

The trendy urban neighborhoods in America's alpha level urban cities are simply way too urban to have anywhere near enough detached SFH's to meet the demand, thus they become the exclusive domain of the wealthy.

Only 10% of Lincoln Park's housing units are highly coveted detached SFH's. Hell, even all the way up here in Lincoln Square that percentage only goes up to 15%. So of course there's a huge price premium for such a staunchly limited, extremely desired commodity.

That pattern is repeated in all of the big urban US cities: NYC, Boston, LA, SF, etc. If you ain't rich, then you ain't getting no fancy SFH in a desirable urban neighborhood.

However, IF you can get over the "shame" of living in a multi-unit flat building, then Chicago does have a wealth of good options for larger family-sized units that people in that upper middle class bracket can very much afford.

And yes one of the reasons those kinds of units are so much less expensive than a comparably sized SFH is the fact that a large percentage of upper middle class people with families simply won't accept anything less than a SFH, so off to the burbs they go.

My wife and I almost ended up following them out there until we came to agree that location was more important to us than a SFH. So, Lincoln Square > Skokie, for us. many other families choose differently.

If you're not stinking rich, you're gonna have to make compromises somewhere along the line.
Again, I hear you. I grew up in Manhattan, in a small apartment, I understand the trade offs.

However, what I'm saying is the reality in Chicago, upper middle class families typically do not want neighbors above or below them - and more often than not will not consider condos.

Upper middle class families may stick it out in a condo in the city with kids too young for CPS or may even hang around through a few years of K-8, but the majority of Upper Middle Class families will not stay in the condo for their kids entire school age - the MLS data supports this (I'm a licensed RE agent in Illinois) and Condo's typically sell every 5 years.

My bigger point is families who would consider staying in the city and moving to a bigger home, are looking at 2 hurdles in 2019:

1. Property Tax burden: There is too much uncertainty with the City and it's financial mess, and buyers don't want to risk purchasing a SFH at the top of their budget only to find they've had a major property tax increase.

2. CPS: The question I hear quite a bit is "where will I send my kids to High School?" - the vast majority who can afford it, send their kids to private schools. I live 2 blocks from Blaine Elementary (One of the top K-8 schools in the city) and I've yet to see a family have their kid finish there, about 5 or 6th grade they start thinking about HS, and literally 100% of families have bailed for the city for the burbs for a more stable HS situation.

I don't know if it's that the average midwest family requires/desires more space than a typical NYC / SF / Boston family but I see families in those cities sacrifice space in a way that the typical Upper Middle Class Chicago family will not. Just an observation, but my personal experience.
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  #1984  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2019, 9:37 PM
LouisVanDerWright LouisVanDerWright is offline
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I don't know what y'all are talking about. I am buying a big ass SFH that's in Belding school district, a block from a big park, a couple blocks from both a metra and a blue line stop, a couple blocks from the highway, on an extra deep double lot for a hair over $300k... The taxes are only $6500 or so a year.

The problem only exists when people ignore the other vast sections of the city that sit right on the edge of these desirable areas, but don't have a full scale Milwaukee Ave in Logan Square yuppie boom going on. I could probably find you 200 SFH around the city in areas like this in 5 minutes of searching on Redfin.
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  #1985  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2019, 3:47 PM
OrdoSeclorum OrdoSeclorum is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright View Post
I don't know what y'all are talking about. I am buying a big ass SFH that's in Belding school district, a block from a big park, a couple blocks from both a metra and a blue line stop, a couple blocks from the highway, on an extra deep double lot for a hair over $300k... The taxes are only $6500 or so a year.

The problem only exists when people ignore the other vast sections of the city that sit right on the edge of these desirable areas, but don't have a full scale Milwaukee Ave in Logan Square yuppie boom going on. I could probably find you 200 SFH around the city in areas like this in 5 minutes of searching on Redfin.
I was about to write this same thing. My wife and I are looking and a lot of places I see I think "that would be way out of our price range", I'll look on Zillow and see that it's about $600K or something. And the public schools in Chicago are actually pretty good. My nephew went to elementary school in Edgewater a few years ago and it was delightful.

The livability in Chicago only seems bad until you realize that every other city is worse. If you're willing to accept car dependent sprawl, I'm sure you can find someplace cheaper. If you want to live in a city, Chicago is and will remain the best bang for the buck I know of.
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  #1986  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2019, 3:50 PM
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Steely Dan Steely Dan is online now
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Originally Posted by Investing In Chicago View Post
However, what I'm saying is the reality in Chicago, upper middle class families typically do not want neighbors above or below them - and more often than not will not consider condos.
three things:

1. i think you and i have different ideas of what what constitutes "upper middle class" in chicago. you're talking about 7 figure houses, and that's straight-up upper class in chicago IMO. UMC would be more like $400,000 - $700,000 houses, based on the general rule of thumb that home price should ideally be ~2.5x household AGI.

2. we know many upper middle class people raising their families in mulit-family (including ourselves). the most common version is those who have bought a 2-flat and duplex-downed the 1st floor/basement into their "forever home" and then have an upstairs tenant to pay the property taxes for them.

3. what upper middle class people do or do not not do isn't ultimately that much of a concern to me. i was simply pushing back against your assertion that chicago is too expensive for upper middle class people to raise families in. i would argue the exact opposite. compared against the other 1st tier urban cities in america, chicago has an unbelievable amount of family-sized housing at utterly bargain-basement prices compared to NYC, SF, boston, LA, etc. and as LDVW pointed-out, chicago is also blessed with the "go one more neighborhood over" thing where, if houses are too expensive in "A", go a mile west to "B" and they're 20% less expensive, and if that still doesn't work, go another mile west over to "C" and prices drop even more. this is a big giant wide-open city, not some cute little constricted island or peninsula where everything larger than a one-bedroom is $750,000+.
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Dec 9, 2019 at 9:12 PM.
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  #1987  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2019, 6:29 PM
BrinChi BrinChi is offline
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Affordable SFHs with easy transit

Or if you want an affordable SFH there is still plenty of places where you can afford one with good transit access. South Lakefront still has enough infill land to offer this affordably for at least the next 10 years:

https://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/35.../home/14072160

https://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/25.../home/14071231

https://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/36.../home/17285346

https://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/36.../home/22830617

https://www.redfin.com/zipcode/60653...1125:-87.62883

https://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/41.../home/70653267

https://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/34...home/167724671

https://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/50.../home/17557878

Homes in this area are basically the cost of construction - with some premium for designer finishes. And quality retail is finally starting to trickle in.
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  #1988  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2019, 9:28 PM
LouisVanDerWright LouisVanDerWright is offline
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The.

https://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/44...m_content=link

"Affordable".

https://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/46...m_content=link

Housing.

https://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/35...m_content=link

"Crisis".

https://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/39...m_content=link

Is.

https://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/36...m_content=link

A.

https://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/36...m_content=link

Lie.

https://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/24...m_content=link

When you can buy a SFH in Logan Square with beautiful original features in great shape for $429k then you know anyone telling you housing in Chicago is not affordable is a dirty dirty liar. These links are not on the South side. These links are not dilapidated. These links are not far from the train. You won't be living in architectural digest, but last time I checked Onyx countertops and Wolf appliances are not a human right.
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