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  #41  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2008, 7:19 AM
Geebrr Geebrr is offline
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Originally Posted by Mayor Quimby View Post
Wouldn't it cost less to ensure proper housing, education, etc. for everyone???
Just wanna say, your whole arguement is bang on, and I could quote pretty much everything you have stated to agree with.

It seems people would rather hide the problems than address them. You must have some sociological training because that is a fine sociological arguement you have been making sir.

Well done
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  #42  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2008, 4:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Only The Lonely.. View Post
The only solution to it is to force these people into treatment.
Wrong.

That just treats the symptom, but they'll just get replaced by another who's had little to no education, had a disfunctional family/been through foster hell, come to Winnipeg from a reserve without proper support networks, lost their job, got addicted to a substance.

You have to see the cause and effect and treat BOTH.

Forcing treatment on someone who doesn't want will not give you positive results, and most often results in relapses. Treatment of any kind (psychological, physical, substance abuse, eating disorders, etc) is only successful when the recipient WANTS it to be successful.

Brodbeck-logic does not work for homeless people. Sorry. You can't hard-line someone who doesn't play by any rules.
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  #43  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2008, 4:57 PM
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Originally Posted by h0twired View Post
The solution is simple. Start charging a nominal fee for ambulance and emergency hospital services.

$50 per ambulance trip or emergency visit should keep it available for those that truly need it.
If you're jacked up on sniff and fvcked up and freezing in the middle of some barren parking lot, you could die and deserve an ambulance as much as anybody else.

Societies are judged by how they treat their poorest citizens. And while I'm not a Christian, I gotta say that there is an impressive model of respect and care for the disenfranchised embodied in that faith that perhaps more people should at least take a look at.

There are some cold-hearted pricks on this board, thats for sure.
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  #44  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2008, 4:58 PM
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Only The Lonely.. Only The Lonely.. is offline
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Originally Posted by Pootkao View Post
Wrong.

That just treats the symptom, but they'll just get replaced by another who's had little to no education, had a disfunctional family/been through foster hell, come to Winnipeg from a reserve without proper support networks, lost their job, got addicted to a substance.

You have to see the cause and effect and treat BOTH.

Forcing treatment on someone who doesn't want will not give you positive results, and most often results in relapses. Treatment of any kind (psychological, physical, substance abuse, eating disorders, etc) is only successful when the recipient WANTS it to be successful.

Brodbeck-logic does not work for homeless people. Sorry.

MayorQuimby: your arguments are spot-on.
There's currently somewhere in the neighbourhood of 2,000 homeless people in this city. The real problem I have is with 38 of them.

These 38 have a variety of mental health issues that can only be dealt with in an institutional setting. Buying them a house and new clothes might make you and I feel good about ourselves but it really doesn't help them if their cooking the cat in the microwave and drinking varsol.

Someone who calls 911 thirty times through out the year is not 'normal'. They need help. The kind of help that only a psychiatrist, psychiatric nurse or an addictions treatment specialist can provide.

So I say bring out the butterfly nets and let these guys sort it out in the puzzle factory.
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  #45  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2008, 5:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Only The Lonely.. View Post
There's currently somewhere in the neighbourhood of 2,000 homeless people in this city. The real problem I have is with 38 of them.

These 38 have a variety of mental health issues that can only be dealt with in an institutional setting. Buying them a house and new clothes might make you and I feel good about ourselves but it really doesn't help them if their cooking the cat in the microwave and drinking varsol.

Someone who calls 911 thirty times through out the year is not 'normal'. They need help. The kind of help that only a psychiatrist, psychiatric nurse or an addictions treatment specialist can provide.

So I say bring out the butterfly nets and let these guys sort it out in the puzzle factory.

That is truly compassionate. There is not likely much we can do to change those 38, so does that mean we try to make them disapear? We all have crap in our lives, and if we try to make it go away or pretend it is not there, it doesn't get any better. If we accept that it is part of us and learn to live with it, we function a lot better. Is it really such a huge issue that this is going on? Sure its a waste, but then I wasted my tax dollars putting you through school and you waste your tax dollars paying for my health care. What benefit am I to you or you to me?
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  #46  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2008, 5:48 PM
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Originally Posted by psych1 View Post
That is truly compassionate. There is not likely much we can do to change those 38, so does that mean we try to make them disapear? We all have crap in our lives, and if we try to make it go away or pretend it is not there, it doesn't get any better. If we accept that it is part of us and learn to live with it, we function a lot better. Is it really such a huge issue that this is going on? Sure its a waste, but then I wasted my tax dollars putting you through school and you waste your tax dollars paying for my health care. What benefit am I to you or you to me?
Who's talking about making them disappear. If we're talking about giving these people the proper medical treatment they need to regain control of their life, then yes I do want them to disappear.
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  #47  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2008, 6:28 PM
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Originally Posted by psych1 View Post
That is truly compassionate. There is not likely much we can do to change those 38, so does that mean we try to make them disapear? We all have crap in our lives, and if we try to make it go away or pretend it is not there, it doesn't get any better. If we accept that it is part of us and learn to live with it, we function a lot better. Is it really such a huge issue that this is going on? Sure its a waste, but then I wasted my tax dollars putting you through school and you waste your tax dollars paying for my health care. What benefit am I to you or you to me?
Well wait a minute here...what exactly IS your solution then ? More of the same ? Just allow them to continue to squander our money ?

Look , if the 'solution' basically comes down to us giving them absolutely everything they'll ever need to live comfortably then why are any of us working in the first place ? Oh yeah ! Somebody has to actually pay for this stuff. And what the heck are you talking about "just accept that this is part of us and we'll function alot better" ? No. I will not and nor should I accept this situation.

As well , this is exactly the kind of ad-hominem crap I was talking about earlier on. If somebody points out that we're doing our part for these people already, they're labelled not compassionate enough if they refuse to do more. That's total balogna. Nobody is saying we should lock these people up and throw away the key. Nobody is saying we should somehow make them "disappear". In fact, people are trying to actually help them but THEY DON'T WANT THAT HELP. For whatever reason they won't help themselves but that's somehow our fault.

If they won't do it because they're mentally ill then why are we allowing a disease to dictate what help they'll take and what help they won't ? If it's because of some addiction then why are we allowing their addiction to overrule their best interests for basic survival ? Or are they actually in their right minds in the first place ? If that's the case then we don't owe them one more iota of help.

As far as most people are concerned, common sense dictates that we either cut them off from society or force them into it. If they want in then we'll give them all the help they need. This is all already offered. We've done our part here but if we can't force them to take that help then there's no point in offering it to them anymore. You realize that this is what "acceptance" of their situation ultimately means. If we're just going to have to 'accept' that they're pariahs then we should deal with them as if they were leeches on society and excise them one way or another. BUT WAIT ! No, that's not what anybody actually wants. We want to help them. Well, you can't lead a horse to water and force it to drink right ? So are we also supposed to live their lives for them ? Maybe we could peal them a grape while we're at it
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  #48  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2008, 3:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Spocket View Post
Well wait a minute here...what exactly IS your solution then ? More of the same ? Just allow them to continue to squander our money ?

Look , if the 'solution' basically comes down to us giving them absolutely everything they'll ever need to live comfortably then why are any of us working in the first place ? Oh yeah ! Somebody has to actually pay for this stuff. And what the heck are you talking about "just accept that this is part of us and we'll function alot better" ? No. I will not and nor should I accept this situation.

As well , this is exactly the kind of ad-hominem crap I was talking about earlier on. If somebody points out that we're doing our part for these people already, they're labelled not compassionate enough if they refuse to do more. That's total balogna. Nobody is saying we should lock these people up and throw away the key. Nobody is saying we should somehow make them "disappear". In fact, people are trying to actually help them but THEY DON'T WANT THAT HELP. For whatever reason they won't help themselves but that's somehow our fault.

If they won't do it because they're mentally ill then why are we allowing a disease to dictate what help they'll take and what help they won't ? If it's because of some addiction then why are we allowing their addiction to overrule their best interests for basic survival ? Or are they actually in their right minds in the first place ? If that's the case then we don't owe them one more iota of help.

As far as most people are concerned, common sense dictates that we either cut them off from society or force them into it. If they want in then we'll give them all the help they need. This is all already offered. We've done our part here but if we can't force them to take that help then there's no point in offering it to them anymore. You realize that this is what "acceptance" of their situation ultimately means. If we're just going to have to 'accept' that they're pariahs then we should deal with them as if they were leeches on society and excise them one way or another. BUT WAIT ! No, that's not what anybody actually wants. We want to help them. Well, you can't lead a horse to water and force it to drink right ? So are we also supposed to live their lives for them ? Maybe we could peal them a grape while we're at it
if there gonna spend millions of dollars they might as well have a dedicated area for this troubled situation, that way they atleast know where they are, and where they are not. i remember awhile back they wanted to make a red light district area for u know who, i would liked that better knowing and controlling a situation is much betting then throwing money out there and the situation is just out to lunch. vancouver has a safe are for junkies to shoot up, well in that same context that can be applied. if they really want to control it, then control it make designated areas.
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  #49  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2008, 2:31 PM
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Having worked closely to most of these 38 individuals (plus the many others who have already died) for the better part of seven years, I think institutionalization would be a good thing for them. Not simply because of a "it's a drain on the system" argument, but because of the physical and mental harm (and eventually, an untimely death) that this lifestyle brings to these people. I can't tell you how many 40-year-old men I've encountered that look like their 60 and get around like they're 90, or have lost their ability to walk because of sniffing, lost toes to frostbite, or have simply died. It happens all the time.

Regardless of whatever caused this behavior, these folks are slowly killing themselves by living such a harmful lifestyle. Blaming society and "colonialization" doesn't change that. If society is judged by how we treat our poorest citizens, then we're obviously not a just society if we allow this to continue because of guilt or whatever else.

If they didn't want long-term treatment, I don't think they would be happy to spend most of their days and nights sitting in the HSC waiting room or a drunk tank cell. Nor would a number of them voluntarily check into Detox several times a year.
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  #50  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2008, 5:32 PM
ScrappyPeg ScrappyPeg is offline
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RGalston, I have to completely agree with you. The 38 people in question are not the average sniffer/drunk/person with mental health - they are usually the extreme of the extreme. I'm not entirely convinced that the most humane thing to do is leave them to wander about the streets.

Sorry I do have to bring in the dollar argument - I think it is somewhat appropriate since society is being left with the bill. Being compassionate does not mean one also has to be blind or ignorant to the cost factors - they are a reality.
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  #51  
Old Posted Feb 8, 2008, 6:36 AM
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WRONG,

They should all just be shot IMO.

Easiest way to solve the problem.
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  #52  
Old Posted Feb 8, 2008, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
WRONG,

They should all just be shot IMO.

Easiest way to solve the problem.
We should shoot you. Easiest way to solve the problem.
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  #53  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2008, 8:41 PM
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Originally Posted by vid View Post
We should shoot you. Easiest way to solve the problem.
..Or not.
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