Does an Anglo-Canadian become more Canadian by learning French?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Per capita gun ownership rates are higher in Connecticut than the Northwest Territories

29% of Canadians think religion is very important to their life. The US state with the lowest percentage of people answering the same way is Vermont, at 57%.

There are fewer people of Latin American origin in all of Canada (244k) than there are Hispanics in metropolitan Portland, Oregon (277k).

Those are just phenomena where statistics are kept.

Two of those three are good examples though whether or not the presence of Hispanics contributes to a different overall mindset in non-Hispanic Americans (or alternatively if the presence of a large francophone population within Canada affects the way other Canadians are in some way) merits further examination.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by itom 987

A language is just a way to communicate,

That's not true.

Originally Posted by itom 987

That language is constantly hobbling the economy and preventing Quebecers from reaching their full potential.

That's also not true.

Originally Posted by itom 987

But of course, you all will never listen and keep blaming the rest of the country for your problems.

Not true.

Originally Posted by itom 987

If you guys actually took measures to improve your economy we wouldn't be having this discussion about equalization payments.

Clearly not true.

Originally Posted by itom 987

Do I know french? Obviously not, and it isn't worth my time to learn it.

This one is your truth.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Two of those three are good examples though whether or not the presence of Hispanics contributes to a different overall mindset in non-Hispanic Americans (or alternatively if the presence of a large francophone population within Canada affects the way other Canadians are in some way) merits further examination.

You certainly can get decent Tex-Mex food prepared by Mexicans just about everywhere in the US save for maybe the very smallest of villages. And Spanish instruction is to US schools what French instruction is to Canadian schools, save for French immersion.

It's interesting to consider how different Canada would be if French-Canadians were spread out all over the country like Latin Americans are in the US. Maybe every town would have a habitant restaurant with a traditional breakfast special, like a Jos Louis and Pepsi. And there'd be more strip clubs.

Heh.

[le calmar]

Originally Posted by Acajack

As soon as you let up on one a little bit it starts to lapse.

I have no doubt about this. I function in both English in French in my everyday life and it is not that often that I don't get to speak both languages in a regular manner (I would say, when I don't work is when I don't speak much French as there is no francophone coworkers around. So generally speaking, I use more English than French).

Despite the fact that my lifestyle is bilingual, there is sometimes one of those awkward moments where I forget a specific French word. It takes me two seconds to remember it, but still... in those moments the first thing that comes to my mind is the English equivalent. This usually applies to objects I don't interact with on a regular basis.

Right now I was looking at a pin in my office as I was trying to find an example. I tried to remember what was the word for "pin" in French. I figured it was "punaise" after a few seconds. But it took me a good 5-6 seconds to remember if it was acceptable to say "pin" in French (acceptable "anglicisme"?). I guess that's how it starts? But no, I am not at risk of losing my French, but I kinda get what you mean.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

I laugh at Canadians unless they speak to me in real English like Queen Elizabeth!

The "French language in Canada" Wikipedia article does a good job of articulating the difference:

Quebec French is noticeably different in pronunciation and vocabulary from the French of France, sometimes called Metropolitan French, but they are easily mutually intelligible in their formal varieties, and after moderate exposure, in most of their informal ones as well. .

This last point is a very good one. In my experience francophones from overseas get a pretty decent grasp (if not perfect) of Quebec colloquial French within a couple of months.

Some very close family friends I've had for several decades originally moved to Canada from another Francophonie country (not in Europe) in the late 1960s. They arrived in Montreal where members of their family had settled a couple of years prior.

They once told me a story of their Montreal-settled relatives watching this program:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_mtkML4sAk

And every person in the room was pissing their pants laughing except for the "new arrivals" who were clueless. Even though the new arrivals spoke fluent French. It took them a little while to catch on but eventually they did.

[Proof Sheet]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I a
(The Newfoundland accent is a notable exception - there aren't any accents native to the US that are similar to that.)

Newfoundland has its own accent? who knew

Next you're going to be telling us they have their own expressions, food, flag, history.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by rousseau

....

It's interesting to consider how different Canada would be if French-Canadians were spread out all over the country like Latin Americans are in the US. Maybe every town would have a habitant restaurant with a traditional breakfast special, like a Jos Louis and Pepsi. And there'd be more strip clubs.

Heh.

Cutting it a bit close to the edge there ...

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by le calmar

I have no doubt about this. I function in both English in French in my everyday life and it is not that often that I don't get to speak both languages in a regular manner (I would say, when I don't work is when I don't speak much French as there is no francophone coworkers around. So generally speaking, I use more English than French).

Despite the fact that my lifestyle is bilingual, there is sometimes one of those awkward moments where I forget a specific French word. It takes me two seconds to remember it, but still... in those moments the first thing that comes to my mind is the English equivalent. This usually applies to objects I don't interact with on a regular basis.

Right now I was looking at a pin in my office as I was trying to find an example. I tried to remember what was the word for "pin" in French. I figured it was "punaise" after a few seconds. But it took me a good 5-6 seconds to remember if it was acceptable to say "pin" in French (acceptable "anglicisme"?). I guess that's how it starts? But no, I am not at risk of losing my French, but I kinda get what you mean.

I wonder if anyone else is like me - virtually every time I can't think of a word in French and ask a francophone, it turns out to be the same word! Drives me nuts!

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by le calmar

I have no doubt about this. I function in both English in French in my everyday life and it is not that often that I don't get to speak both languages in a regular manner (I would say, when I don't work is when I don't speak much French as there is no francophone coworkers around. So generally speaking, I use more English than French).

Despite the fact that my lifestyle is bilingual, there is sometimes one of those awkward moments where I forget a specific French word. It takes me two seconds to remember it, but still... in those moments the first thing that comes to my mind is the English equivalent. This usually applies to objects I don't interact with on a regular basis.

Right now I was looking at a pin in my office as I was trying to find an example. I tried to remember what was the word for "pin" in French. I figured it was "punaise" after a few seconds. But it took me a good 5-6 seconds to remember if it was acceptable to say "pin" in French (acceptable "anglicisme"?). I guess that's how it starts? But no, I am not at risk of losing my French, but I kinda get what you mean.

So, I saw "pin" and my first reaction was that I would (rather tentatively) try "épingle". So I looked it up and it seems that I might be correct, or at least in the ballpark. I often find in both French and Spanish, I somehow know words that I'm very unlikely to ever use, while everyday terms escape me.

[lio45]

You're both right. The former thing is a "punaise", the second an "épingle". Completely different things in French. I'm pretty sure both are called a "pin" in English, right?

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by lio45

You're both right. The former thing is a "punaise", the second an "épingle". Completely different things in French. I'm pretty sure both are called a "pin" in English, right?

Thumbtack and safety pin, respectively. A "pin" (in this context) would be the thin, straight, pointy thing with a small head that a tailor or seamstress might use to hold bits of fabric together pending sewing with a "needle".

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Thumbtack and safety pin, respectively. A "pin" (in this context) would be the thin, straight, pointy thing with a small head that a tailor or seamstress might use to hold bits of fabric together pending sewing with a "needle".

Yes, the thing that you have to remove many of when you buy a new dress shirt is a pin. Or the object you attempt to strike with your bowling ball.

[LakeLocker]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Per capita gun ownership rates are higher in Connecticut than the Northwest Territories

29% of Canadians think religion is very important to their life. The US state with the lowest percentage of people answering the same way is Vermont, at 57%.

There are fewer people of Latin American origin in all of Canada (244k) than there are Hispanics in metropolitan Portland, Oregon (277k).

Those are just phenomena where statistics are kept.

This is exactly the kind of stat that makes this conversation so meaningless. No one is arguing the composition of the US is exactly the same. When you start referencing immigrant all you are saying is the fact that the US is literally a different culture. It's not like a white guy in Duluth is culturally more interested in Hispanics than someone in thunder bay. Ever region everywhere has variations and trends.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by LakeLocker

It's not like a white guy in Duluth is culturally more interested in Hispanics than someone in thunder bay.

Well, a white guy in Duluth is going to have exponentially more Mexican food options than in Thunder Bay and is going to have studied Spanish in high school. He's going to have Latin American dating options that don't exist in Thunder Bay too.

So you could argue that a white guy in Duluth is indeed culturally more interested in Hispanics than his counterpart in Thunder Bay, at least in an ambient way.

[LakeLocker]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I am in general agreement with you, and I don't think you're being disrespectful. (How can you be, anyway? You're talking about your own people!)

But if we're talking about micro-aggressions and such (yeah, I know I'm the one who brought that up), another one is probably saying that (Anglo-)Canadians are exactly the same as Americans.

Some might even say that alluding to the existence of "Anglo-Canadians" as an identifiable group is also a micro-aggression.

In any event, I do think Rousseau has a point when he talks about what I think we could call mindset and demeanour.

There *is* a perceptible difference I would say between Canadians and Americans, though there are also differences within the US itself. As such, assuming there was no border would the mindset and demeanour fit in rather nicely among the variety in terms of mindset/demeanour that already exists across the US?

Is there is a Canadian mindset/demeanour that is predominant in Lower Sackville, Guelph and Sherwood Park but that drops down to zero as soon as you cross the border?

And if so, within the entire United of States of America and its 330 million people and infinite subcultures, is there no mindset/demeanour among those multitudes that is essentially the same as the Canadian one? Or that comes close enough?

Here I am using the same principles that I apply to accents. Yes, most Canadians who speak English do sound a bit different from Americans. But to me the accent is not alien to the point where, in the absence of a border, it could not be considered one accent among all the regional accents that already exist within the US: Boston Brahmin, New Yawk, Texas, California, Northern US Cities Vowel Shift, etc.

I mean, in many ways the Canadian accent in English is closer to "neutral American" than some accents that are native to the US

The invisible border test really is a good analogy.

If the border was removed I can't imagine anyone thinking that all these people to the north are of the same culture. At best people might argue that a common Midwestern culture might stretch a little further into sask alberta than it does in Montana.

Originally Posted by Acajack

(The Newfoundland accent is a notable exception - there aren't any accents native to the US that are similar to that.)

Actually there is a really odd accent found in the fishing communities in the Carolinas. Its the same idea and I'd argue it's much more distinctive/older than the accent found in Newfoundland.

[vid]

Originally Posted by rousseau

He's going to have Latin American dating options that don't exist in Thunder Bay too.

That's a good point. I gotta go to Duluth.

Originally Posted by rousseau

So you could argue that a white guy in Duluth is indeed culturally more interested in Hispanics than his counterpart in Thunder Bay, at least in an ambient way.

In Thunder Bay, you say Hispanics and people will be like "What, you mean Italians?" From 2014 to 2018, 30% of our city councillors had Italian as a first or second language. These days, it's a mere 23%. Most studied languages in school here are French, German and Italian. I'm not sure if Spanish is even offered? I've met far more people who took German than Spanish in school here.

There are a lot of Portuguese people, but I'm not sure the contemporary definition of Hispanic applies to them.

And for the record, Thunder Bay actually has 4 Mexican restaurants! Sure, 3 of them are Taco Times, but Apple Chipotle is very good too. I think there might be another one, I'm not sure. Most of our restaurants are Asian, something that isn't too common in the US, especially the regional variant of Chinese restaurant which is slowly disappearing. Also not common down there: coffee chains like Tim Hortons. The idea of getting a coffee from the drive through on the way to work is less common in the US, but up here, it isn't unusual for a Tim Hortons drive through to back up through a neighbourhood.

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by LakeLocker

The invisible border test really is a good analogy.

If the border was removed I can't imagine anyone thinking that all these people to the north are of the same culture. At best people might argue that a common Midwestern culture might stretch a little further into sask alberta than it does in Montana.

True, although Montana isn't the Midwest.

The people on opposite sides of the border are literally different. North Dakota and Minnesota are full of Norwegians and Swedes. Manitoba had few Norwegians and its Swedish immigrants left no lasting mark. There are virtually no Ukrainians, Mennonites or French-Canadians in ND or MN, while those groups have had an enormous influence through the history of Manitoba. These cultures are not that different, of course. But while the stark Lutheranism of North Dakota had its counterpart in Manitoba, the latter was never pervasive enough to shape the whole common culture.

There is no question, I think, that 19th century people in Canada who were of a bolder, more risk-taking nature tended to head west, which often meant leaving for the U.S. The bolder you were, the greater the odds that you'd eventually end up in California. There is still a discernible pattern of increasing individualism from east to west in North America, I would say.

[vid]

Northwestern Ontario and Northeastern Minnesota do have Finns and Swedes in common. Thunder Bay and Northeastern Minnesota have the Finnish-American St. Urho's Day celebration in common. It started across the border in a small town with lots of Finnish people, but the largest celebration these days is in Thunder Bay. (It's March 16th and it basically makes fun of St. Patrick, using grasshoppers instead of snakes, and St. Urho instead of St. Patrick; St. Urho is fake.) St. Patrick's Day is probably bigger now, and that's due to the older generations dying off and mass media pushing the concept of St. Patrick's Day on us a lot harder than it could in the 1970s.

Northwestern Ontario probably has a lot more Scottish people than Northern Minnesota, which likely has more Irish people than NWO.

Also the accent changes at the border. Northern Minnesota and Northwestern Ontario have different accents from each other.

[lio45]

My experiences so far have been mostly the opposite of Rousseau's.

One example: my American ex (just from the other side of the border from my hometown). Among her exes was a guy from Mississauga. There had never been much "culture shock" there. But with me, there was lots of it. "WTF, you have no idea who [Super Known North-American-Anglo Personality] is? What cave have you been living in?" "You have no idea what [Classic American Show] is? How can that be, everyone grew up watching it!" (we had about the same age)

The Mississauga guy was a perfect fit among her American exes (differentiated by tiny details; he probably said aboot instead of about, etc.) while I was the cultural outlier (and would have been placed in the same category as a Danish or Bulgarian ex, had she dated anything other than North American Anglos at that point).

[LakeLocker]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Well, a white guy in Duluth is going to have exponentially more Mexican food options than in Thunder Bay and is going to have studied Spanish in high school. He's going to have Latin American dating options that don't exist in Thunder Bay too.

So you could argue that a white guy in Duluth is indeed culturally more interested in Hispanics than his counterpart in Thunder Bay, at least in an ambient way.

I live in London and what you're saying just sounds so foreign I work with a bunch of hispanics and my neighbor is mexican. They are literally the most unified immigrant group in the area and they don't affect my life in any shape or form. I'm not buying into the idea that they are altering American culture beyond a small number of states. They are too catholic/european to make any differences in the overall culture.