SW Ring Road Debate

[fusili]

Originally Posted by Bassic Lab

Nothing quite makes me feel like a class warrior like the 40 km/h speed limit on Elbow, and don't get me started on the world's longest playground zone, but even I would likely fight it tooth and nail. I would hate to be behind someone turning left across three lanes of traffic at an unsignalized intersection in the only southbound lane. It would be a nightmare for cars and transit, the #3 bus has great headways and is busy in both directions. If left turns were banned it would also be a nighmare as the only effective way to get around a lot of communities would be taken away.

How does Centre Street do it? (this is a real question)

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by Oliver Klozov

That wasn't my understanding of it. The province owns the land. The Copithornes just have a grazing lease. The longest any of those are/were is 20 years. They are not automatically renewable. If the lessee wants to renew they have first right to do so before it is offered to anyone else but the province can change the land designation so that it isn't offered at all. They are not obligated to continue the grazing lease if they want the land for a different purpose. Therefore, there was no problem with the province guaranteeing that they could secure the land.

The only thing that wasn't guaranteed was that the federal government would actually allow the land to become part of the reserve. It was my understanding that they had no problem with it but they had to have an actual application to deal with before they could act on it.

I believe the real reason the natives rejected the deal is simply they think they can just keep holding out for more. Re-opening negotiations is a complete waste of time; a deal will never get passed without changing something else like cutting off access to the casino.

If they are actually trying to get more than double the land that they would have lost and $400 million dollars (I think those were the terms), then we should absolutely play hardball and cut off access to their casino. They seem to forget the massive retail opportunities that would come out of this, perhaps that should be brought up if/when negotiations resume.

[kw5150]

If we did make start with 14th ave as the solution.....

Widening roads is not the answer, adding more interchages is.

You can have only 2 lanes each way (with additional merge in and out lanes) and as long as you have an interchange, things should flow smoothly.

I was pretty surprised to see some of the main freeways in Los Angeles were only 3 lanes wide. There we no stoplights, and although the traffic was gridlocked, it was still moving.

These interchanges do not have to be high speed either. The interchanges in LA were very similar to what you see on crowchild with a set of lights at the top.

The trick is to keep everything free-flowing. I am obviously simplifying this solution down to a few things an I realize that there is more to it than just adding intechanges.

[outoftheice]

Originally Posted by Mazrim

...Long version: In terms of looking at roads like Crowchild instead of the SWRR, it's not just downtown commuters that will benefit from network upgrades. There is a large percentage of people who are going everywhere BUT downtown from the SW, and being bottlenecked onto only a few possible routes around the Glenmore Resevoir and Fish Creek Park is what kills any chance of current network upgrades solving the problem...

I think that this pretty much sums up exactly why we need the SWRR. Because no matter how many upgrades we make to existing roads, no matter how many BRT routes are added, the fact remains that one accident on the Glenmore Causeway over the resevoir grid-locks traffic in the entire SW quadrant of the city! That bridge is essentially the only major east-west corridor for every resident living south of the Bow River, which is ridiculous for a city of Calgary's size. Building the SWRR opens up Southland Drive, Anderson Road and the 22x portion of Stoney Trail to be used as alternatives to the Glenmore Causeway. That's why the City and the Province need to get it built and get it built soon!

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by Bassic Lab

Nothing quite makes me feel like a class warrior like the 40 km/h speed limit on Elbow, and don't get me started on the world's longest playground zone, but even I would likely fight it tooth and nail. I would hate to be behind someone turning left across three lanes of traffic at an unsignalized intersection in the only southbound lane. It would be a nightmare for cars and transit, the #3 bus has great headways and is busy in both directions. If left turns were banned it would also be a nighmare as the only effective way to get around a lot of communities would be taken away.

Good point, that would pretty much FUBAR the whole area.

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by fusili

I probably came off as a jackass in that last post. But I think the problem is that the city was approving subdivisions without a clear idea how it would handle traffic in the future and without a guarantee that the ring road would go through. If the city wanted to approve those communities in the SW, it should have made it clear that traffic wasn't going to be great. The problem is most of the people that moved there had no idea what the travel implications of their choice was.

Actually, I was smiling when I read your post, and not in the condescending "you're wrong and I'm about blow apart your argument" way. You're totally right. For me it was where my roommates wanted to go, and where it was affordable to go. Signal Hill turned out to be the best place for us in terms of location and cost. The commute was about the same as when I lived in Beddington, though. Eventually I was able to move out from Signal Hill in to my own place and only 10 minutes from work.

Another example, I ask my girlfriend's aunt why she lives in Mission and works in Burnaby, and it's simply just money. It costs less for her to live out there and have her own house, even with the cost of traveling. Her time spent commuting sucks, but she figures it's worth it.

Originally Posted by Me&You

I thought that reverse commuting was encouraged around these parts? Marzim, by traveling from Signal Hill to the deep south would have generally been traveling against the flow of rush hour traffic. I bet that his commute would have been even worse if he was traveling from the deep south to Signal Hill in the morning (and back at night).

The Glenmore Causeway is very busy in both directions in rush hour, so the only difference would have been in the afternoon rush when Glenmore backed up from 37th to Crowchild. Oddly, in the morning rush, Glenmore didn't back up very far at all towards Highway 8 in comparison. My morning and afternoon commute times were only 5 minutes different most of the time.

[fusili]

The more I think about it, the more I realize the 50th avenue transit connection across the Elbow is essential to this city's transportation infrastructure. You could potentially run a BRT from Westhills, through MRU, across 50th, to the SLRT @ 39th ST station, across Manchester to the SELRT @ Highfield station and then across to the east side of Deerfoot, the whole time barely stopping.

Unfortunately it will never happen.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by Bassic Lab

Nothing quite makes me feel like a class warrior like the 40 km/h speed limit on Elbow, and don't get me started on the world's longest playground zone

I have to admit, I don't notice a lot of this sort of thing in Calgary but those folks are just complete elitist assholes. I know exactly what you mean.

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by fusili

How does Centre Street do it? (this is a real question)

I wondered about that myself. I came to the conclusion that there are a few differences between that part of Centre and the portion of Elbow you pointed out that together make a big difference. It is a shorter distance and, what with a raised bridge being involved, almost half of it has no intersections. Between 2nd Ave S and 7th Ave N there is no traffic attempting to turn. Most of the intersections on the remaining portion are already controlled by lights. Finally, the neighbourhoods around that portion of Centre are on a proper grid so there are more options and restricting left turns (I forget if left turns are restricted on that portion of Centre; I think I've only ever driven on it once during rush hour, it was with the flow of traffic and I stayed on until McKnight) does not completely limit connectivity. Some one could turn right, travel a block, turn north or south and then swing back towards Centre and proceed to the side they want to be on when they have a green light.

Basically I think that portion of Centre functions more like the combination of 4th and 5th Streets does for downtown bound Elbow traffic. Elbow between Mission and Glenmore Trail functions more like Centre St between 20th Ave (where the lane reversals end) and 64th Ave but with an even more fractured grid because of the Elbow River.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by Mazrim

Another example, I ask my girlfriend's aunt why she lives in Mission and works in Burnaby, and it's simply just money. It costs less for her to live out there and have her own house, even with the cost of traveling. Her time spent commuting sucks, but she figures it's worth it.

It's funny - I get a lot of "commuting sucks, how can you stand spending so much time going to and from work" from people who really champion transit (of any form). I just find it funny because in nearly every situation (metro Toronto excepted), transit is slower than driving. Certainly in a city like Calgary. If long commutes really are intolerable, transit is the LAST thing I'd recommend for people.

Personally, I much prefer either a very short (I'm talking 5 minutes, ie: walk) or very long (30 mins plus) commute. Anything in between is pointless, but at least with a solid half hour you have time to DO something with your time (read, have a nap, homework...). Maybe it's just the routine I've gotten used to.

[eternallyme]

If they build the 37th Street alignment, could they make it so that the median is preserved for an LRT alignment (a possible Southwest LRT)?

[Mazrim]

There isn't enough room on 37th Street's alignment for LRT. There is no provision in the TUC anywhere for LRT.

[kev_427]

actually it will be. look at number P0396.

http://www.calgary.ca/DocGallery/BU/...d_projects.pdf

[5seconds]

Originally Posted by kev_427

actually it will be. look at number P0396.

http://www.calgary.ca/DocGallery/BU/...d_projects.pdf

That document is 4 years old, and the LRT line you see (in green, project 0396) assumes a Tsuu T'ina Ring Road alignment, so even that document does not show an LRT/37th alignment north of the reservoir.

I doubt we will see any LRT integration with the Ring Road if it goes down 37th street.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by 5seconds

That document is 4 years old, and the LRT line you see (in green, project 0396) assumes a Tsuu T'ina Ring Road alignment, so even that document does not show an LRT/37th alignment north of the reservoir.

I doubt we will see any LRT integration with the Ring Road if it goes down 37th street.

The SW LRT (project 0396) seems to branch off the West LRT at Sarcee Tr & 17th Ave, and heads south down (beside?) Sarcee Tr.


Interesting to see that the Sarcee Tr connector through Edworthy Park to Shaganappi Tr is still on the city's wish-list after 40 years.

[5seconds]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

The SW LRT (project 0396) seems to branch off the West LRT at Sarcee Tr & 17th Ave, and heads south down (beside?) Sarcee Tr.

I think it's actually a good idea. If they could run it first by westhills, and then to MRU, it would make a good spur, I think.

If the Tsuu T'ina ever makes that Ring Road alignment a reality, then I think running a line to Providence is a good idea too.

[MalcolmTucker]

Yeah that map is very old, that in the mean time the province has cancelled the 2nd ring road shown there is but one example of changes.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Yeah that map is very old, that in the mean time the province has cancelled the 2nd ring road shown there is but one example of changes.

ca. 2008 is "very old" ?

Just because the current gov't has cancelled it, there's nothing stopping a future gov't from reviving it in 10, 15, 25 years.
Bureaucracies have ways of keeping these type of projects on life-support for decades.

I noticed that the west portion of the outer ring stops at Glenmore Tr, so someone knows that more negotiations with the Tsuu T'ina will be needed to get this extended across their lands to get to Hwy 22x and further south to meet up with the south portion of the ring.

[MalcolmTucker]

The inner ring road was designed at one point to carry 16 lanes in the sw section, 8 from the outer, and 8 from the inner.

[kev_427]

So obviously some things are going to change in 50 years. I just found it very informative. btw, the link changed. Here it is.
http://www.calgary.ca/Transportation...Toolbox.aspx#4