SAN ANTONIO | City and Metro Transportation Thread

[alexjon]

I don't drive, I ride transit.

San Antonio will never sustain the density needed for a metro or elevated skytrain style system in the next 50 years. Not even on Fredericksburg. Demanding an elevated or structurally intrusive system will not get the community support required to even go forward on building.

I agree, sure, you're probably part of a major problem with bad driving, but that will solve itself when you change the system up.

Demanding modal perfection is a death sentence for any system. Look at Austin, they can't even get a small streetcar system built. Something Tucson is doing, even.

[Dom"n"Converse]

How is doing it right the first time a death sentence? Look at Dallas, they built their downtown segment poorly & now they have high congestion on the single downtown line with not enough funding to do a proper fix. Austin can't get a streetcar line built because the city itself is broke and can't build or maintain it and CapMetro has leadership so poor the people don't trust them.

[alexjon]

"Doing it right the first time" is code for "all or nothing".

And don't down Dallas, DART has ridership that would make VIA wet itself.

[Dom"n"Converse]

DART's bus ridership isn't that much more than VIA's, if anything DART should be embarrassed at having a ridership so close to VIA's when its service area is higher in population.

E: Doing it right isn't code for all or nothing. It means not running trains at grade on the third most traveled road in the metro area.

[alexjon]

Unlike Phoenix, Portland or Seattle, right?

[electricron]

DART's downtown street mall isn't as bad as some suggest. Many cities, not just Dallas, run light rail trains in city streets in central business districts. Most do so in streets shared with other traffic. At least DART runs the trains in streets reserved exclusively for trains. It's the cross streets that cause delays, and the delays aren't as long today as they used to be with the new priority traffic signals.
The train's max speeds downtown is the same as vehicles on the street would be, around 30 mph.
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There would be delays at the four station stops on the streetmall anyways, giving passengers plenty of time to safely get off and on the trains. Any additional wait at signal lights for cross street traffic is very minimal.
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It shouldn't be surprising that any double track light rail corridor is going to reach maximum capacity at some point, and DART will soon squeeze four light rail lines onto this single corridor, maximizing the corridor to its fullest extent. One may suggest that DART didn't design further expansion properly, one can also argue that DART design the system to just Phase II expansion capacity very efficiently, without any unused, left over capacity.

DART will not be able to afford more light rail corridors, or expansion of their existing corridors, after completing construction of the Phase II projects, for a long time to come (after 2030 --more than 20 years from now). At that time, DART may wish to build something else besides more light rail lines......

The next two new light rail corridors DART was planning, located in medians of city streets for a few miles both east and west. In both cases, streetcars may be the better choice than light rail trains. Who has a clear crystal ball and knows today what DART will do 20 years from now? I certainly don't.

[electricron]

Originally Posted by Dom"n"Converse

DART's bus ridership isn't that much more than VIA's, if anything DART should be embarrassed at having a ridership so close to VIA's when its service area is higher in population.

E: Doing it right isn't code for all or nothing. It means not running trains at grade on the third most traveled road in the metro area.

Whereas the DFW area is the fourth largest metro in the country, Dallas by itself isn't. I wonder what the statistics for the DFW area would be if FWTA and DCTA ridership numbers were added to DART, and if all Dallas suburban cities had joined DART?
One would think 13 DART member cities would be a majority, but it isn't.
Eight other first ring suburban cities; Mesquite, Balch Springs, Hutchinson, Lancaster, DeSoto, Duncanville, Grand Prairie, and Coppel; haven't joined DART. Only four second ring suburban cities have joined; Carrollton, Plano, Rowlett, and Glen Heights. That still leaves many second and third ring suburban cities; Colony, Frisco, Allen, Parker, Murphy, Sachse, Wylie, Sunnyvale, Forney, Crandall, Seagoville, Wilmer, and Cedar Hill that haven't joined DART. Much of the growth in the DFW area is in the second and third suburban ring cities, and DART doesn't really served them at all.

[Dom"n"Converse]

At least DART runs the trains in streets reserved exclusively for trains. It's the cross streets that cause delays,

This is the point I'm trying to make. Something like this won't work on Fred Rd because of the shear number of cars. If you stop all traffic so that trains can pass an intersection you hold up the entire road. If you reduce the number of intersections on Fred Rd to run light rail on the sides to fit in stations and make it safer you then add more cars trying to turn at those major intersections causing more backups in the traffic. Then take into account the lack of space in the Deco District to I-10 going downtown, if you reduce that section into a two lane road you cause even more backups and congestion if you try to run light rail at grade in the road. To all this, add in all the bad drivers and you'll see why a light rail line on Fredericksburg Road (and Bandera Road as well) shouldn't be at grade.

[alexjon]

Newsflash: Infrastructure takes space.

[Dom"n"Converse]

You think those land owners will just go take what VIA pays them?

[sakyle04]

Originally Posted by Dom"n"Converse

You think those land owners will just go take what VIA pays them?

As a former enforcer of eminent domain with a fortune 500 company, I can say that they don't have to like the offer....but a court decides what is fair and the taking is for the public good.

[sakyle04]

Originally Posted by Dom"n"Converse

But do you drive that road everyday like I do?

I do. No worse than the rest of the city. And maybe people would drive better with fewer Huge buses to navigate around...

[Dom"n"Converse]

But if you have trains holding up the road to pass at intersections and drivers not paying attention, don't you think you'll see what Houston saw when their Main Street line opened?

[alexjon]

Is this more because you feel you yourself would be inconvenienced, Dom from out in Converse?

[sirkingwilliam]

Originally Posted by Dom"n"Converse

But if you have trains holding up the road to pass at intersections and drivers not paying attention, don't you think you'll see what Houston saw when their Main Street line opened?

You're really making a big deal out of nothing.

[sakyle04]

Originally Posted by sirkingwilliam

You're really making a big deal out of nothing.

Agreed.

More people on public transit (trains) = Fewer total public transit units on roads (buses)

Fewer total public transit units on roads (buses) = Fewer private vehicles on roads

Fewer private vehicles on roads = Less congestion

Less congestion = Fewer accidents

[Dom"n"Converse]

Originally Posted by alexjon

Is this more because you feel you yourself would be inconvenienced, Dom from out in Converse?

Been living downtown for quite awhile and considering I work at University Hospital, I would be inconvenienced by all the accidents that could be prevented by elevating a line for 7 miles.

[Dom"n"Converse]

Originally Posted by sirkingwilliam

You're really making a big deal out of nothing.

Fine, then I'll leave the topic alone.

[oldmanshirt]

Originally Posted by Dom"n"Converse

Been living downtown for quite awhile and considering I work at University Hospital, I would be inconvenienced by all the accidents that could be prevented by elevating a line for 7 miles.

As I think somebody else said, though, there's no way that within the next 100 years SA will have the kind of density along that corridor to justify building 7 miles of elevated rail. I think the incredulity you're receiving comes from acting like its a minor thing to elevate what would already be a $350-$450 million plus project to put rail on Fred and Bandera roads. In Terri Hall's world building overpasses is easy, but in the real world it isn't.

[satxgreen]

Originally Posted by oldmanshirt

As I think somebody else said, though, there's no way that within the next 100 years SA will have the kind of density along that corridor to justify building 7 miles of elevated rail. I think the incredulity you're receiving comes from acting like its a minor thing to elevate what would already be a $350-$450 million plus project to put rail on Fred and Bandera roads. In Terri Hall's world building overpasses is easy, but in the real world it isn't.

http://www.tubularrail.com/ is something under development that i think would work very will Fred and Bandera roads. it's cost about $15-20 mill a mile