Power lines in a business district

[pico44]

Many in my community are interested in burying the power lines in our little downtown. A few of the neighboring towns have Main Streets without wires overhead and they are more attractive and seem livelier as well. I know many of you have a lot of urban planning experience. Has anyone been through this process before? Any specific evidence of retail benefit or activity enhancement/walkability through beautification projects like this? The wires seem like a real scourge to me as they continue to run more and more lines along them. What are your feeling on this issue, is it worth the trouble?

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by pico44

Many in my community are interested in burying the power lines in our little downtown. A few of the neighboring towns have Main Streets without wires overhead and they are more attractive and seem livelier as well. I know many of you have a lot of urban planning experience. Has anyone been through this process before? Any specific evidence of retail benefit or activity enhancement/walkability through beautification projects like this? The wires seem like a real scourge to me as they continue to run more and more lines along them. What are your feeling on this issue, is it worth the trouble?

Our city has buried some power lines on retail streets and not on others. It all depended on budget constraints at the time of each project. One street is just starting to be rebuilt and they have decided to bury them this time. If the goal is to make the street accessible to more people and to provide better opportunities for outdoor patios, then it is a good idea to get rid of the power lines and poles.

I personally like the idea of getting rid of them in pedestrian friendly retail and restaurant areas. Where there are not many pedestrians, and little likelihood to change that, don't waste the money.

[Gantz]

Manhattan has all power lines buried and utility poles removed. The main reason was to prevent power disruptions during snowstorms, high winds, and downed trees.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Gantz

Manhattan has all power lines buried and utility poles removed. The main reason was to prevent power disruptions during snowstorms, high winds, and downed trees.

Ironically, snowstorms still cause power outages because the salt melts into the manhole covers and shorts out the power lines.

[cityscapes]

Underground utilities are unsightly in my opinion but some valid points in support of under grounding are that they are easier maintain as they last longer underground and the power is more reliable being underground due to reduced conflicts with vegetation, inclement weather, cars crashing into utility poles.
Removing them can free up space and declutter sidewalks and improve ADA access depending on where the poles were located initially.

Palm Beach, Florida is under grounding the entire town. It is extremely expensive to do so and the only reason they can afford to assess higher taxes on the entire city to pay for it is because it's an extremely wealthy community. For more info on their project visit their under grounding website: http://undergrounding.info or read this article on the project: https://www.palmbeachdailynews.com/n...xohZs0hGWPGSI/

Columbus has above ground utilities in many locations even large lines running downtown: https://goo.gl/maps/wTLPnBQnc242

I think it looks trashy but the city seems to be coming around as they've relocated utilities on N High Street to be underground as part of streetscaping improvements there. I hope we see more of that city wide.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Gantz

Manhattan has all power lines buried and utility poles removed. The main reason was to prevent power disruptions during snowstorms, high winds, and downed trees.

I live in city that has a much more severe climate than Manhattan. Density makes it more affordable to bury utilities. Something that we do not have. Snowstorms are not a major cause of power disruptions. We get snowstorms all the time. I can understand hurricanes and I have also seen ice storms doing horrendous damage.

In my city, it is exceptional to bury utilities in older parts of the city, but all new development has buried utilities. When we experienced the great ice storm of 1998, most parts of the city with buried utilities experienced few power interruptions. Other areas were vulnerable and had power interruptions that lasted many hours to days. It was rural areas that were devastated the most. I will never forget the pictures of the high voltage towers that collapsed under the weight of the ice.

[cabasse]

Originally Posted by cityscapes

Underground utilities are unsightly in my opinion but some valid points in support of under grounding are that they are easier maintain as they last longer underground and the power is more reliable being underground due to reduced conflicts with vegetation, inclement weather, cars crashing into utility poles.
Removing them can free up space and declutter sidewalks and improve ADA access depending on where the poles were located initially.

Palm Beach, Florida is under grounding the entire town. It is extremely expensive to do so and the only reason they can afford to assess higher taxes on the entire city to pay for it is because it's an extremely wealthy community. For more info on their project visit their under grounding website: http://undergrounding.info or read this article on the project: https://www.palmbeachdailynews.com/n...xohZs0hGWPGSI/

Columbus has above ground utilities in many locations even large lines running downtown: https://goo.gl/maps/wTLPnBQnc242

I think it looks trashy but the city seems to be coming around as they've relocated utilities on N High Street to be underground as part of streetscaping improvements there. I hope we see more of that city wide.

Atlanta runs its medium voltage transmission lines (the ones that aren't so big they run on lattice towers) down down major commercial arterials and it's hideous. It's even right in the middle of our major business districts like Buckhead and midtown. (Piedmont rd) I wish I could do something to mobilize the community to push for them to be buried - as it stands, I don't think a single transmission line is buried in this city, or even metro.


https://www.google.com/maps/@33.8418...7i13312!8i6656

[Hindentanic]

Today's version of Baron Haussmann's boulevards...


(Image from Google Maps)

https://goo.gl/maps/fxumByZqZ9s

...and at the base Austin's newest tallest skyscraper too!

Okay, in fairness, all that development is clustering around Austin's former Seaholm Power Plant, and much of the former utility's infrastructure is going to remain in place for some time, such as the bicycle-friendly transformer station.

Jests aside, Austin's historical downtown grid plan actually had a services and utility solution with foresight, for it was not merely a grid system of streets but more fully also a system of alleyways that served a gridded hierarchy of streets arranged so as to minimize alley breaks on commercial streets and maximize streetscape frontages. Services and utilities could be routed through these alleyways, and picturesque public scenes on the outside of a city block becomes possible because the gritty happens behind-the-scenes at the back of those buildings running through the middle of the block. In the past, above ground power lines ran down the alleyways, but they have since been buried more for their protection rather than beautification, leaving only occasional utility poles in their place. Later planning suggested that vehicle entrances and valet services also be at these existing, mid-block, alley break points so as to avoid additional vehicle entry breaks on main commercial frontage streets. However, as Austin's modern downtown projects can encompass entire blocks, that discipline is getting lost, with some city streets being needlessly reduced to extra-wide service alleys prettified with streetscaping and bike lanes.

At the other extreme, an alley system, despite its grit, can also have its own public activation and beautification.

[Comrade]

Salt Lake City even has the older poles downtown...









To Salt Lake's credit, the lines seem to be buried right in the heart of downtown, so, Main and State Street, but once you're off those streets, all bets are off.

[isaidso]

Toronto has tons of overhead wiring downtown and its not all due to the streetcar system either. They're look ghastly although to my surprise lots of locals seem to think it's charming and buried electrical frivolous expenditure.

How quaint?


Gorgeous? (That purple heap of a building has since been restored but the overhead wiring remains. Wiring like this is found all over the core)

[Pedestrian]

Downtown San Francisco has a nest of overhead wires not only because PG&E has been too cheap and incompetent to put them underground but because the city has an extensive system of trolley busses running on cheap hydro-power from a city-owned dam and, of course, the catenaries for these have to be overhead:



It doesn't seem to detract from street life or vibrancy.

It's also probably true that while overhead wires do require more maintenance and repair, at least when that has to be done it's easier and cheaper.

[BrownTown]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Toronto has tons of overhead wiring downtown and its not all due to the streetcar system either. They're look ghastly although to my surprise lots of locals seem to think it's charming and buried electrical frivolous expenditure.

Burying power lines costs approximately 10x as much as having them overhead. So yeah it is pretty frivolous in all but the densest areas.

Originally Posted by Pedestrian

Downtown San Francisco has a nest of overhead wires not only because PG&E has been too cheap and incompetent to put them underground

Well, how the heck is PG&E supposed to pay for that when California is constantly suing them for Billions of dollars? Not that utility companies even make these sort of decisions, they're all government regulated so the government decides whether to they're allowed to put lines underground or not since they would have to raise rates to do so.

[tayser]

Distribution networks are generally underground in Melbourne - in the CBD and major activity centres around the metro area (i.e Box Hill).

In the CBD the only wires you see are tram catenary - which in many places in heavily simplified and uses buildings on either side of the street for anchoring. (Spin that last streetview 180 degrees to see standard poles for anchors).

Suburban tram areas see a mixture of both AC distribution into businesses/houses as well as tram catenary (and DC distribution lines for the trams), Sydney Road, Brunswick is a good example. (AC distribution on left side of street, DC distribution for trams on right)

Here's a fairly typical power line set up in a suburban street - wood pole, top three cables are higher kV distribution, the lower lines are the ones that connect, mostly aerially, to houses: https://goo.gl/maps/xkb4s9hFx1C2

Transmission generally follows creeks/green space or freeways (which were corridors generally reserved 50-60 years ago when the last major transmission network expansions were going on).

Examples: Monash Freeway with 3 x 220kV circuits that serve eastern inner/central Melbourne: https://goo.gl/maps/BSNBLBgmRgo
Maribyrnong River with 2 x 220kV circuits that serve western inner/central Melbourne: https://goo.gl/maps/svmtuaUoKpy
The Bolte Bridge was built next to massive towers that take a single 220kV circuit from north to south in inner Melbourne: https://goo.gl/maps/wSesrHKHpM72
The heavier duty 500kV network is limited to suburban and regional areas, this below is Ringwood - 2 x 500kV circuits on a single pylon on left, 2 x 220kV circuits on a single pylon on right (this is in a freeway corridor that was reserved years ago (and the 500kv network was built in the 70s) but only got its freeway 10 years ago - Eastlink: https://goo.gl/maps/WBJt2foano92

On the whole however - 'undergrounding' power lines - distribution or transmission is a vanity thing unless an economic case can be made for averting risk re: disruptions (i.e it's really about the climate).

[10023]

Above ground power lines in cities are strange in general. It’s part of the half-finished look of most American cities.

[The North One]

My god, that area is Austin is a horror. It belongs in a textbook on exactly how not to develop cities.

[10023]

Originally Posted by The North One

My god, that area is Austin is a horror. It belongs in a textbook on exactly how not to develop cities.

Not exactly plane trees are they...

[pdxtex]

hai! as a distribution designer at a major west coast power company, i will say it all comes down to $$$$. most new distribution services in urban areas remain overhead because the infrastructure and roadways are already in place. lots of those poles are more than 50 years old! most underground stuff happens in newer suburban developments when the land is being improved. the contractor will usually lay down the conduit and then we come in and pull the wire through and hook it up. obviously large urban projects will have most of their critical infrastructure underground in a vault but new underground transmission is also extremely expensive. but in markets where above ground poses a hazard like dry as $%^& california, it might eventually be a benefit.

[BrownTown]

Originally Posted by 10023

Above ground power lines in cities are strange in general. It’s part of the half-finished look of most American cities.

Not really. They're very common in Asian cities for instance. Much of Tokyo looks like a spider's web that's worse than anything I've seen in the US.

[SIGSEGV]

Another benefit of having alleys, I guess
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8827...7i16384!8i8192

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by BrownTown

Burying power lines costs approximately 10x as much as having them overhead. So yeah it is pretty frivolous in all but the densest areas.

We hear those arguments all the time by long time locals trying to defend the indefensible. A crappy public realm is all they've ever known so they think it's fine. It isn't. Countries/cities far poorer all over the world seem able to install this 100 year old 'technology'. Some cities like Helsinki manage to burying all their utilities, not just electrical.

Buried electrical costs more than overhead electrical. Paved roads cost more than dirt roads. At some point a city has to determine what kind city it wants to be. You have to have first rate infrastructure if you want to be a top tier city capable of attracting the best talent. Thankfully Toronto is finally acknowledging that its public realm is shabby, an eyesore, and needs major investment. The City is burying electrical one block at a time.

Unfortunately it will take decades to fix it.